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hic787
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Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:25 pm

Samoa's national carrier will not go ahead with the lease of a new Boeing 737 max 9 aircraft according to the prime minister.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/international ... 9-aircraft

http://mrcaviation.blogspot.com/2019/03 ... -2019.html

"The government could not wait for the report on the 737 max 8 crashed in Ethiopia which killed 157 people because safety is a priority for Samoa's national carrier."
I never choose between two sides, I always choose them both, especially when they're contradictory.
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debonair
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:10 am

So after GARUDA the next airline to drop the MAX8 from its fleet... So will they keep the NEOS B738 longer?
 
zkncj
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:03 am

debonair wrote:
So after GARUDA the next airline to drop the MAX8 from its fleet... So will they keep the NEOS B738 longer?


That or they will pickup something else.

NZ is currently off-loading it’s 2003-2006 build A320CEOs, so there is some local availability of aircraft around that they could go for.

Believe the flight crew on the current 738 are apart of the lease
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:07 am

That poor Primera MAX 9 now awaits another new home.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:24 am

I think every airline that over ordered new Max frames
will seize on this opportunity to dump their orders.

I know the max order book says 4,500 some odd frames sold,
but I'm sure B has a pretty good idea what % of that order book
is in jeopardy right now.
 
bladenl
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:59 am

I don't think Samoa airlines over-ordered considering they had only one on order.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:11 am

Shame. I was looking forwards to spotting this one.
First to fly the 787-9
 
n7371f
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:16 am

It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.

Sooner787 wrote:
I think every airline that over ordered new Max frames
will seize on this opportunity to dump their orders.

I know the max order book says 4,500 some odd frames sold,
but I'm sure B has a pretty good idea what % of that order book
is in jeopardy right now.
 
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zkojq
Posts: 3655
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:22 am

n7371f wrote:
It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.


DQ-TFL was to be leased from Air Lease Corporation, not being purchased directly from Boeing.
First to fly the 787-9
 
raylee67
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:52 am

Actually does Samoa needs an aircraft that large? I would think the A220 is a more suitable aircraft for Samoa.
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Blerg
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 am

n7371f wrote:
It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.

Sooner787 wrote:
I think every airline that over ordered new Max frames
will seize on this opportunity to dump their orders.

I know the max order book says 4,500 some odd frames sold,
but I'm sure B has a pretty good idea what % of that order book
is in jeopardy right now.


Yes but every contract has clauses which need to be fulfilled/respected by Boeing and providing a safe product that doesn't keep crashing after take off is probably one of them. Furthermore, I am sure that airlines can argue Boeing is not selling a product they were advertising.
 
toltommy
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 am

n7371f wrote:
It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.


While this particular plane is being leased, others will be buying direct. And a contract has obligations on both parties. In exchange for the money, Boeing has to provide a safe, and airworthy plane. Right now the case can be made that the Max isn't meeting that standard. Boeing acknowledged the need to update the MCAS software after the Lion Air crash. They have yet to do so. That tells me that Boeing is having a problem writing the update. And with the regulators grounding the planes, there may well be cause to reject contracts, and for Boeing to pay damages. Time will tell.
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bladenl
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:44 am

raylee67 wrote:
Actually does Samoa needs an aircraft that large? I would think the A220 is a more suitable aircraft for Samoa.


I don't think the A220 (CS) has the ETOPS required for what the Samoans are planning to do with this plane.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:51 am

Blerg wrote:
n7371f wrote:
It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.

Sooner787 wrote:
I think every airline that over ordered new Max frames
will seize on this opportunity to dump their orders.

I know the max order book says 4,500 some odd frames sold,
but I'm sure B has a pretty good idea what % of that order book
is in jeopardy right now.


Yes but every contract has clauses which need to be fulfilled/respected by Boeing and providing a safe product that doesn't keep crashing after take off is probably one of them. Furthermore, I am sure that airlines can argue Boeing is not selling a product they were advertising.


Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Blerg
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:15 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Blerg wrote:
n7371f wrote:
It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.



Yes but every contract has clauses which need to be fulfilled/respected by Boeing and providing a safe product that doesn't keep crashing after take off is probably one of them. Furthermore, I am sure that airlines can argue Boeing is not selling a product they were advertising.


Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?


Well, two almost identical crashes do indicate that there is a pattern forming. On top of that even Boeing admitted that they need to introduce changes so it's only safe to assume planes would have kept on falling from the skies. Unless you think two crashes and the loss of life it caused don't matter that much since there weren't more of them?
 
JQ321
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:21 am

bladenl wrote:
I don't think Samoa airlines over-ordered considering they had only one on order.

Not over-ordering per say but they don't need such a large aircraft so they did over-order because they never needed such a large aircraft, maybe a smaller one but not one that big.
 
chiad
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:25 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Blerg wrote:
n7371f wrote:
It's not like airlines can just tell Boeing, "what the hell we don't want the planes." There is such finite language in contracts - in addition to the roughly 20% down payment an airline would lose, in addition to fees and such, that it's laughable people think it's like turning in the keys at National Car Rental.



Yes but every contract has clauses which need to be fulfilled/respected by Boeing and providing a safe product that doesn't keep crashing after take off is probably one of them. Furthermore, I am sure that airlines can argue Boeing is not selling a product they were advertising.


Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?


I think 2 crashes of only 350 units over less than 2 years is quite a lot.
In addition the crashes are rather identical.

If you compare it to other programs within the same class and generation, only the MAX has crashed, and two crashes is alarmin IMO.
If the MAX was still in service I would choose a different aircraft if possible when travelling. But that's just me.
 
Qantas16
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:45 am

zkncj wrote:
debonair wrote:
So after GARUDA the next airline to drop the MAX8 from its fleet... So will they keep the NEOS B738 longer?


That or they will pickup something else.

NZ is currently off-loading it’s 2003-2006 build A320CEOs, so there is some local availability of aircraft around that they could go for.

Believe the flight crew on the current 738 are apart of the lease


A320CEO does not have the reliable range to do routes like BNE/SYD-APW or launch MEL-APW. Case in point, they wet-leased a Solomon Airlines A320CEO to operate some BNE-APW-BNE rotations over summer and the plane stopped in NAN on the way back on multiple occasions. They can fill a 737-9 during peak periods and cargo would not be insignificant either so they need the capabilities of the 737 MAX series (or A320/1 NEO series)
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:24 am

bladenl wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Actually does Samoa needs an aircraft that large? I would think the A220 is a more suitable aircraft for Samoa.


I don't think the A220 (CS) has the ETOPS required for what the Samoans are planning to do with this plane.

A220 has ETOPS-180 which is more than sufficient to cover missions like SYD-APW. It's another story of whether Samoan Airways can be ETOPS certified though.

Michael
 
sandbender
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:31 am

toltommy wrote:
They have yet to do so. That tells me that Boeing is having a problem writing the update. And with the regulators grounding the planes, there may well be cause to reject contracts, and for Boeing to pay damages. Time will tell.


:roll: And if they had an update out already how many people would be claiming they rushed it out without throughly testing it? This isn't Microsoft Word and even minor changes have to be rigorously tested. Once Boeing is done the FAA has to review, test and approved it. It takes time and shouldn't be rushed. With that said, it seems Boeing has submitted it to the FAA for approval.
 
Interested
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:46 am

On marketing for the new Max planes (that still hasn't been changed) they claim the Max is more reliable than Airbus and will have fewer "lost flying days" than Airbus

And Boeing go so far as to guarantee those statements financially to anyone who buys fhe planes. That's not going to be helping them right now financially of course.

Soon enough they will need to change their marketing. This won't just be about cancellations of orders. How can anyone consider placing a new order for this plane in the current circumstances? Wheres their new income coming from each month?

What actually are Boeing going to sell in the next few months with this plane accounting for 85 per cent of their orders right now?
 
Bostrom
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:55 pm

chiad wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?


I think 2 crashes of only 350 units over less than 2 years is quite a lot.
In addition the crashes are rather identical.

If you compare it to other programs within the same class and generation, only the MAX has crashed, and two crashes is alarmin IMO.
If the MAX was still in service I would choose a different aircraft if possible when travelling. But that's just me.


Compared to 700 A320neos delivered and 0 crashes, the safety record of the Max is disatrous at the moment. And yes, I would say the same if we had seen 4 A320neos crashes that looked similar.
 
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PW100
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:57 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?

By the time 5000 MAX are delivered, at this rate we would see a MAX crash on weekly basis. Apart form that, yes, it's a safe airplane.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:29 pm

Blerg wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Yes but every contract has clauses which need to be fulfilled/respected by Boeing and providing a safe product that doesn't keep crashing after take off is probably one of them. Furthermore, I am sure that airlines can argue Boeing is not selling a product they were advertising.


Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?


Well, two almost identical crashes do indicate that there is a pattern forming. On top of that even Boeing admitted that they need to introduce changes so it's only safe to assume planes would have kept on falling from the skies. Unless you think two crashes and the loss of life it caused don't matter that much since there weren't more of them?


The pattern - if it exists - is that carriers who take the available AoA-related options, train their pilots properly, and have decent safety/maintenance cultures don’t crash the airplanes.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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adamblang
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:47 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?

Half a percent is outrageously high for this statistic.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 773 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
Interested
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:54 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Blerg wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?


Well, two almost identical crashes do indicate that there is a pattern forming. On top of that even Boeing admitted that they need to introduce changes so it's only safe to assume planes would have kept on falling from the skies. Unless you think two crashes and the loss of life it caused don't matter that much since there weren't more of them?


The pattern - if it exists - is that carriers who take the available AoA-related options, train their pilots properly, and have decent safety/maintenance cultures don’t crash the airplanes.[/qeit]
The FAA's own safety report on best practise for designing planes is to reduce risks and remove risks for human error from pilots or maintenance of any nationality

They warn that 80 per cent of crashes will involve human error and state that planes have to therfore be designed accordingly to reduce the possibility of human error

In more than one way having MCAS on any plane increases the risk of human error either on the ground or by pilots

Therefore the plane should not be certified to replace the 737. Simple as that.

We can't remove human error sadly, We can only design planes to reduce the human errors that can crash the planes.

Can you get that ?

Obviously since they wrote the report in 2002 FAA have forgotten what they wrote or a plane needing MCAS to fly would never have made it past the approval stages they must have?
Last edited by Interested on Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:55 pm

adamblang wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Given how of there are 350 737MAX delivered and only 2 crashes, can you really say that the MAX keeps crashing?

Half a percent is outrageously high for this statistic.


It would be safer in a helicopter!!
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:23 pm

Interested wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Well, two almost identical crashes do indicate that there is a pattern forming. On top of that even Boeing admitted that they need to introduce changes so it's only safe to assume planes would have kept on falling from the skies. Unless you think two crashes and the loss of life it caused don't matter that much since there weren't more of them?


The pattern - if it exists - is that carriers who take the available AoA-related options, train their pilots properly, and have decent safety/maintenance cultures don’t crash the airplanes.[/qeit]
The FAA's own safety report on best practise for designing planes is to reduce risks and remove risks for human error from pilots or maintenance of any nationality

They warn that 80 per cent of crashes will involve human error and state that planes have to therfore be designed accordingly to reduce the possibility of human error

In more than one way having MCAS on any plane increases the risk of human error either on the ground or by pilots

Therefore the plane should not be certified to replace the 737. Simple as that.

We can't remove human error sadly, We can only design planes to reduce the human errors that can crash the planes.

Can you get that ?

Obviously since they wrote the report in 2002 FAA have forgotten what they wrote or a plane needing MCAS to fly would never have made it past the approval stages they must have?


I agree with much of what you have written, but the criterion isn’t, shouldn’t be, and can’t be that the plane is incapable of crashing due to human error (otherwise the 330 would not be certifiable).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
goosebayguy
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:37 pm

The only reason we are no longer seeing any B737 MAX crashes right now is because they are grounded. For Boeing to even call this a safe airplane is extremely misleading. They have made an unstable aircraft which might be fine for fighter aircraft fitted with ejection seats but not for passenger aircraft. I foresee a complete redisign being needed here and Boeing could go broke.
 
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Re: Samoa Airways will not take delivery of 737 Max 9

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:57 pm

Thread went off topic and will be locked.

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