chrisp390
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Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:45 pm

I was looking at Finnair and it is shocking they chose the A350 over the 787. Their route network of many thin routes over long distances seems like it would be much better served with the smaller Boeing 787. Why did Finnair not order the 787 and is there a chance they may consider it in the future?
 
rufusmi
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:48 pm

I’m guessing Airbus simply offered the better deal. Finnair was an A350 customer before it became the XWB (basically what the A330neo is today), so I’m guessing they got a screaming deal on the XWB.
 
CRJ900
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:50 pm

They have several A359 with 336 seats now, which suggests they need the capacity the A359 offers...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
GalebG4
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:56 pm

Most of their long haul routes is in between 8h and 11h which is if you ask me more a359 territory then 787’s, also they use HEL position as hub for Far East destinations.
 
dcajet
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:02 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
I was looking at Finnair and it is shocking they chose the A350 over the 787. Their route network of many thin routes over long distances seems like it would be much better served with the smaller Boeing 787. Why did Finnair not order the 787 and is there a chance they may consider it in the future?


Why is it shocking? They run a pretty successful airline as it is, so you'd think they know a thing or 2 about their business and what kind of plane suits their network best.

Why do you think the 787 is a must have for Finnair, not so secretly hoping they will see the light and eventually consider it? (Which I am sure they did at some point and realized the A350 was a better fit for them).
Last edited by dcajet on Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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speedbird52
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:02 pm

Because contrary to popular belief not every airline needs the 787.
 
tobsw
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:05 pm

Finnair is not as thin as you may think. Their Asian newtork is quite strong - especially Japan. They don´t fly for fun. Which European airline flies up to twice daily to Tokyo? and to Osaka? Nagoya? Fukuoka? and soon Sapporo? Or even up to 3 daily flights to Bangkok? And many other destinations in the region (Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing, Seoul,...).

Their TA are only "strong" in the summer, when they JFK, ORD and MIA with LAX (launching soon) and SFO.

Finnair has found its niche: EU to Asia.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:36 pm

Shocking? Really. They are except for a couple of E190s all-Airbus. They operate the 340, 330 and now the 350.
 
UA444
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:37 pm

They have never been into Boeing’s. Always a Douglas then Airbus customer.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:48 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Because contrary to popular belief not every airline needs the 787.


Hard to believe isn't it?
 
StTim
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:51 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
I was looking at Finnair and it is shocking they chose the A350 over the 787. Their route network of many thin routes over long distances seems like it would be much better served with the smaller Boeing 787. Why did Finnair not order the 787 and is there a chance they may consider it in the future?


I think you need to be careful how you frame your questions if you want to elicit balanced replies. It is obvious from your use of "shocking" that you are a 787 fan and cannot believe that the A350 will work better for some airlines.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Why do we have threads like this?
They obviously don't see the need for it in their fleet....
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:00 pm

If I were an airline, I would not order the 787, but order the 747-8.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:03 pm

Kindanew wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Because contrary to popular belief not every airline needs the 787.


Hard to believe isn't it?

Remember: according to a.net, every single airline in the world needs the 787, regardless of their current fleet & network or their future fleet needs & network.
The 787 is, according to those same peeps, the jack of all trades and any airline choosing not to order the 787 (and even worse if they order the A350 instead) must be crazy.

Ah, the good ol' a.net myths...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:10 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Remember: according to a.net, every single airline in the world needs the 787


To be fair, that's not correct.

The rule is - the needs of every airline in the World are perfectly met by a combination of the 787 and 777X. :duck:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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jfk777
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:19 pm

Finnair only went Airbus long haul about 10 years ago when their MD-11 were getting old, they got a few A340-300 and then went A330-300 in a very big way. The A350-900 was the next progression, the 777-300ER was too big and the 787-9 not big enough. Ironically he 787-10 is probably the perfect size for Finnair and has enough range to get from Helsinki to Japan and Singapore, so who know a 787-10 may call Finland home some day. There have been Airbus airlines that have gone Boeing a big way, Air Canada just to name one.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:22 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Why do we have threads like this?
They obviously don't see the need for it in their fleet....


Fully agree, super-annoying threads, typically Boeing fanboys who are looking for '...airbus offered them a deal they couldn't refuse...' type of reply, hence the Airbus option was so horrendously inferior, Airbus was forced to give it away to get the sale. Ugh, so tired of these. The A350 has proven itself to be an absolutely exceptional aircraft and this is coming from a Boeing and Airbus fanboy!
 
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Finn350
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:36 pm

They made the decision when having to replace their MD-11 fleet. Airbus was able to offer A350 (the original) and A330/A340 as an interim solution. The order was later updated to the A350XWB. I guess Boeing with the 787 and 767 as an interim solution was not as attractive.
 
EChid
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:43 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Finnair only went Airbus long haul about 10 years ago when their MD-11 were getting old, they got a few A340-300 and then went A330-300 in a very big way. The A350-900 was the next progression, the 777-300ER was too big and the 787-9 not big enough. Ironically he 787-10 is probably the perfect size for Finnair and has enough range to get from Helsinki to Japan and Singapore, so who know a 787-10 may call Finland home some day. There have been Airbus airlines that have gone Boeing a big way, Air Canada just to name one.

I don't think AC was ever an 'Airbus airline' - they just went for the best price and best equipment for their needs. Back in the day, that was the A320 (it was an era when Airbus wanted into the North American market in a very bad way, so good pricing) and the A330/A340 combo made sense. But AC was one of the first to go for the 767 when it came out (and has operated them for a very long time), had 747s (which didn't suit it well), and chose Boeing once their equipment improved to the point it made sense (77W/787) or they offered such a stonking good deal that it couldn't be passed up (MAX). Finnair chose the 350 because it was right-sized, right-priced, and shared some commonalities with their existing long-haul fleet. For a small airline, that stuff matters.

This idea of 'Airbus' or 'Boeing' airlines needs to stop.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
Mullion
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:45 pm

Don`t forget they also operate a large fleet of A319/20/21s plus the Embraers
 
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OA940
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:46 pm

Thin? That's a joke right? AY flies to places BA, AF, KL, LH or any other European airline don't even dare touch with the A350. And it works. Helsinki is in such a position that it can be the KEF of Europe and Asia, and AY has played that game very well. Also airlines make a crapload of money from cargo, and the A350 can offer more of that than the 787. Besides they don't fly the -1000, they fly the -900, which isn't too far off from the passenger numbers a 787-9 can carry. Why ruin your fleet commonality when you can handle a bigger plane, aka make more money? So it's by far not ''shocking'' they chose the A350 over the 787. Not every airline in the planet is gonna order the 787. Some will prefer the A350, others the A330neo. Every airline has its needs and they vary significantly in ways and including variables most of us don't know about.
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jfk777
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:53 pm

EChid wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Finnair only went Airbus long haul about 10 years ago when their MD-11 were getting old, they got a few A340-300 and then went A330-300 in a very big way. The A350-900 was the next progression, the 777-300ER was too big and the 787-9 not big enough. Ironically he 787-10 is probably the perfect size for Finnair and has enough range to get from Helsinki to Japan and Singapore, so who know a 787-10 may call Finland home some day. There have been Airbus airlines that have gone Boeing a big way, Air Canada just to name one.

I don't think AC was ever an 'Airbus airline' - they just went for the best price and best equipment for their needs. Back in the day, that was the A320 (it was an era when Airbus wanted into the North American market in a very bad way, so good pricing) and the A330/A340 combo made sense. But AC was one of the first to go for the 767 when it came out (and has operated them for a very long time), had 747s (which didn't suit it well), and chose Boeing once their equipment improved to the point it made sense (77W/787) or they offered such a stonking good deal that it couldn't be passed up (MAX). Finnair chose the 350 because it was right-sized, right-priced, and shared some commonalities with their existing long-haul fleet. For a small airline, that stuff matters.

This idea of 'Airbus' or 'Boeing' airlines needs to stop.


The 767 is a 1980's AC fleet choice, the A330-300 (they still have them) is a 1990's fleet choice as was the A340-300(gone) & the A340-500 plus ordered but not delivered A40-600. AC switched to 787 and 777 around 2006-2008 because it was a better fit for them then four engine flying pencils. Air Canada is clearly now a Boeing airline with some legacy Airbus planes still flying. Finnair is an Airbus airline.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:50 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Because contrary to popular belief not every airline needs the 787.


Hard to believe isn't it?

Remember: according to a.net, every single airline in the world needs the 787, regardless of their current fleet & network or their future fleet needs & network.
The 787 is, according to those same peeps, the jack of all trades and any airline choosing not to order the 787 (and even worse if they order the A350 instead) must be crazy.

Ah, the good ol' a.net myths...

Upcoming thread: "Why did Horizon Air not order the 787 for transcon flights"
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:52 am

Ziyulu wrote:
If I were an airline, I would not order the 787, but order the 747-8.

If I had an airline the fleet would consist of 757s, 727s, and 747-200s. There is a reason I don't have an airline.
 
EChid
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:53 am

jfk777 wrote:
The 767 is a 1980's AC fleet choice, the A330-300 (they still have them) is a 1990's fleet choice as was the A340-300(gone) & the A340-500 plus ordered but not delivered A40-600. AC switched to 787 and 777 around 2006-2008 because it was a better fit for them then four engine flying pencils. Air Canada is clearly now a Boeing airline with some legacy Airbus planes still flying. Finnair is an Airbus airline.

No. These are ridiculous lines to draw upon and there is no guarantee that the next order made by either AC or Finnair will follow along those lines.

AC is an airline that chooses the right aircraft at the right price, just like every other well-run program worldwide. They fly and continue to purchase additional A321s, and they have purchased more used A330s. They were ready to sign on the dotted line for A32X neos before Boeing snagged the deal by offering to take up some Embraers+killer MAX pricing. They go for the planes that are the most financially beneficial, on the whole, to the company. It's that simple.

The desire of a.netters to remove rational thought as an element of airlines' decision making and brand them either pro- or anti- one particular company is stupendous.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
Max Q
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:04 am

speedbird52 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
If I were an airline, I would not order the 787, but order the 747-8.

If I had an airline the fleet would consist of 757s, 727s, and 747-200s. There is a reason I don't have an airline.



Love it, but I would add the L-1011 !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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admanager
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:13 am

jfk777 wrote:
EChid wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Finnair only went Airbus long haul about 10 years ago when their MD-11 were getting old, they got a few A340-300 and then went A330-300 in a very big way. The A350-900 was the next progression, the 777-300ER was too big and the 787-9 not big enough. Ironically he 787-10 is probably the perfect size for Finnair and has enough range to get from Helsinki to Japan and Singapore, so who know a 787-10 may call Finland home some day. There have been Airbus airlines that have gone Boeing a big way, Air Canada just to name one.

I don't think AC was ever an 'Airbus airline' - they just went for the best price and best equipment for their needs. Back in the day, that was the A320 (it was an era when Airbus wanted into the North American market in a very bad way, so good pricing) and the A330/A340 combo made sense. But AC was one of the first to go for the 767 when it came out (and has operated them for a very long time), had 747s (which didn't suit it well), and chose Boeing once their equipment improved to the point it made sense (77W/787) or they offered such a stonking good deal that it couldn't be passed up (MAX). Finnair chose the 350 because it was right-sized, right-priced, and shared some commonalities with their existing long-haul fleet. For a small airline, that stuff matters.

This idea of 'Airbus' or 'Boeing' airlines needs to stop.


The 767 is a 1980's AC fleet choice, the A330-300 (they still have them) is a 1990's fleet choice as was the A340-300(gone) & the A340-500 plus ordered but not delivered A40-600. AC switched to 787 and 777 around 2006-2008 because it was a better fit for them then four engine flying pencils. Air Canada is clearly now a Boeing airline with some legacy Airbus planes still flying. Finnair is an Airbus airline.

And the 320 was brought in to AC partly to replace the BOEING 727. AC was very late among legacy carriers in North America to order the 727, and it didn't last a long time
 
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admanager
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:19 am

UA444 wrote:
They have never been into Boeing’s. Always a Douglas then Airbus customer.

Also a Sud Aviation customer. I always thought the 70's era Finnair Caravelle was one of the most classic designs - Nordic design elements at their best.
 
speedking
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:24 am

Never say never. The government of Finland is looking for a replacement for their F/A-18 Hornet fighters in the next few years. Maybe if they would choose F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, they would get a deal with Boeing for 787 that they cannot refuse. NATO...mafia...you know...
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:33 am

Max Q wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
If I were an airline, I would not order the 787, but order the 747-8.

If I had an airline the fleet would consist of 757s, 727s, and 747-200s. There is a reason I don't have an airline.



Love it, but I would add the L-1011 !

Same here: We can get Concorde's out of storage right?
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:34 am

The more airlines that do not order the 787, the happier I am. So I have more options on avoiding the 787.
 
speedking
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:59 am

speedking wrote:
Never say never. The government of Finland is looking for a replacement for their F/A-18 Hornet fighters in the next few years. Maybe if they would choose F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, they would get a deal with Boeing for 787 that they cannot refuse. NATO...mafia...you know...


Further thought: If Finland buys 60 Super Hornets from Boeing and the deal includes let's say 20% discount from every 787 purchased afterwards plus guaranteed access by US government to the latest weapon technology purchases, how could Airbus respond to this?
 
THS214
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:23 am

chrisp390 wrote:
I was looking at Finnair and it is shocking they chose the A350 over the 787. Their route network of many thin routes over long distances seems like it would be much better served with the smaller Boeing 787. Why did Finnair not order the 787 and is there a chance they may consider it in the future?


Well... at Finnair they are not smart but MBAs. Few years ago they all got "stay bonus" and when they got them they left (many of them). New MBAs came in. No-one at Finnair has a vision. Current leaders just follow what earlier leaders did. This whole Asia thing is from 1980s. Now it works but it doesn't deliver. Finnair is barely profitable.

A lot of Finnair profit is because of their legal department. Delayed flight... good luck. Greetings to Sami Sarelius.. Lawyer that doesn't care about law. He and his department make millions to Finnair, Otherwise Finnair is not profitable.

About 787... Same as E170... Finnair cannot afford it. They were losing money whit E170s. Thats why they go for A321s ... Head above water...

I wish them all the best but as long as there is no vision they just flow like in the last decades.

Current CEO is from finance, the one earlier was mine engineer.

The reason this CEO was selected was because his expertise of finance. I guess the earlier one was because he was able to dig a big hole (mine).
 
AleksW
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:24 am

Cos the A350 looks much better, has cooler winglets, has wider cabin and ergonomic side sticks, which pilots love.
 
speedking
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:28 am

speedking wrote:
speedking wrote:
Never say never. The government of Finland is looking for a replacement for their F/A-18 Hornet fighters in the next few years. Maybe if they would choose F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, they would get a deal with Boeing for 787 that they cannot refuse. NATO...mafia...you know...


Further thought: If Finland buys 60 Super Hornets from Boeing and the deal includes let's say 20% discount from every 787 purchased afterwards plus guaranteed access by US government to the latest weapon technology purchases, how could Airbus respond to this?


The above as an example that major deals in this world do not necessarily depend just on how good some product is for some market. There is a lot of global politics behind which company gets the deal in the end, independent of all the talks of free markets.
 
AleksW
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:31 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Because contrary to popular belief not every airline needs the 787.


Hard to believe isn't it?

Remember: according to a.net, every single airline in the world needs the 787, regardless of their current fleet & network or their future fleet needs & network.
The 787 is, according to those same peeps, the jack of all trades and any airline choosing not to order the 787 (and even worse if they order the A350 instead) must be crazy.

Ah, the good ol' a.net myths...


No no no. ONLY 757 :)
 
THS214
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:39 am

AleksW wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Kindanew wrote:

Hard to believe isn't it?

Remember: according to a.net, every single airline in the world needs the 787, regardless of their current fleet & network or their future fleet needs & network.
The 787 is, according to those same peeps, the jack of all trades and any airline choosing not to order the 787 (and even worse if they order the A350 instead) must be crazy.

Ah, the good ol' a.net myths...


No no no. ONLY 757 :)


Don't forget 737-200 (cargo) :yes: :D :thumbsup:
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:46 am

rufusmi wrote:
I’m guessing Airbus simply offered the better deal. Finnair was an A350 customer before it became the XWB (basically what the A330neo is today), so I’m guessing they got a screaming deal on the XWB.


This is probably the proper answer to the question.

Also considering their long haul fleet previously consisted of MD-11s and A340s an a350 is a massive boost in efficiency regardless of whether or not they can fill the aircraft.
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:52 am

Already an established Airbus customer. Operating the A330/340, so A350 was next logical step.

Honestly, I have a little difficulty understanding why airlines buy both the A350-900 and Boeing 787-9..............
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:27 am

OSL777FLYER wrote:
Already an established Airbus customer. Operating the A330/340, so A350 was next logical step.

Honestly, I have a little difficulty understanding why airlines buy both the A350-900 and Boeing 787-9..............

The A350 is significantly larger than the 787 I think
 
airzona11
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:31 am

ACCS300 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Why do we have threads like this?
They obviously don't see the need for it in their fleet....


Fully agree, super-annoying threads, typically Boeing fanboys who are looking for '...airbus offered them a deal they couldn't refuse...' type of reply, hence the Airbus option was so horrendously inferior, Airbus was forced to give it away to get the sale. Ugh, so tired of these. The A350 has proven itself to be an absolutely exceptional aircraft and this is coming from a Boeing and Airbus fanboy!


Are we reading the same thread? Seems like a logical question. The A350 is larger than the 787. The poster had the hypothesis that Finnair has a thinner network/city pairs and wondered why the larger A350 was chosen. I just read all the posts are almost every single one is a pro-A poster stating must be Boeing fanboy. There are a few posts talking about their strong Asian markets that justify the need for the A350 and also point out the Finnair is a strong Airbus client. Those are all logical answers. Not sure why everyone feels the need to post fanboy responses, the irony being they are doing what they decry the other side to guilty of.

To the OP, Finnair has a model where they can capture more J Y+ and Y passengers to cover the longhaul flights. the 788/789 in similar configs offer less seating that might not work with the fares Finnair captures, hence the larger A350. There are many airlines that operate the A350/787 in combination. They are compliments as much as they compete. BA AF/KL UA JL LH SQ, many large airlines operate or will operate both. Finnair has a relativetly small fleet, don't think there is room or scale for both.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:40 am

chrisp390 wrote:
I was looking at Finnair and it is shocking they chose the A350 over the 787. Their route network of many thin routes over long distances seems like it would be much better served with the smaller Boeing 787. Why did Finnair not order the 787 and is there a chance they may consider it in the future?


Are you treating the B787 as a best jack of all trades plane? The A350 is great capabilities as well such as more range, more cargo, more seats. The B787 is more fuel fuel efficient to it's weight and lighter engines and probably more things I don't know about. Also how are so sure that Finnair runs a lot of thin long haul routes. I mean you could be right but what if Finnair is transporting a lot of cargo. Might be Finnair got a great contract out of Airbus. So nobody on a.net can truly answer this question unless of course they worked for Finnair, Airbus, or Boeing.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:48 am

speedbird52 wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
Already an established Airbus customer. Operating the A330/340, so A350 was next logical step.

Honestly, I have a little difficulty understanding why airlines buy both the A350-900 and Boeing 787-9..............

The A350 is significantly larger than the 787 I think

2370mm to exact is a350-900 longer then 787-9 if look at cabin length only.
787 cabin width 216in
A350 cabin width 220in
 
speedbird52
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:14 am

GalebG4 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
Already an established Airbus customer. Operating the A330/340, so A350 was next logical step.

Honestly, I have a little difficulty understanding why airlines buy both the A350-900 and Boeing 787-9..............

The A350 is significantly larger than the 787 I think

2370mm to exact is a350-900 longer then 787-9 if look at cabin length only.
787 cabin width 216in
A350 cabin width 220in

The most significant difference is MTOW: 787-9 is 560,000 lb, A350-900 is 696,661 lb. A350 is significantly longer than the 787: 219.5 feet vs 206 feet and 1 inch
 
tealnz
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:20 am

Different capabilities. 359 is similar to a 77E and much more efficient. 789 is a bit smaller, less payload range, but highly efficient for airlines/routes that don’t require the capability of the 359. Finnair must have decided the Airbus was a better match for their needs. It’s not complicated.
 
GalebG4
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:49 pm

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:22 am

speedbird52 wrote:
GalebG4 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
The A350 is significantly larger than the 787 I think

2370mm to exact is a350-900 longer then 787-9 if look at cabin length only.
787 cabin width 216in
A350 cabin width 220in

The most significant difference is MTOW: 787-9 is 560,000 lb, A350-900 is 696,661 lb. A350 is significantly longer than the 787: 219.5 feet vs 206 feet and 1 inch

Longer outside, inside cabin interior length is only 2370mm.
Similar length has a330-900 but only 8 abreast instead of 9 like a350 or 787.
 
finnishway
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:20 am

rufusmi wrote:
I’m guessing Airbus simply offered the better deal. Finnair was an A350 customer before it became the XWB (basically what the A330neo is today), so I’m guessing they got a screaming deal on the XWB.


This is the correct answer. This topic was discussed in the Finnish media years ago. Finnair simply got A350 for very cheap price. Finnair was one of the first customers to order them. Then you have to remember that the plane was also delayed, because Airbus improved it to become actual A350 and compete against B787. This was compensated in the price.

The other main reason to choose Airbus was strategy to move to all Airbus fleet. This cut overall costs.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13728
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:50 am

tobsw wrote:
Finnair is not as thin as you may think. Their Asian newtork is quite strong - especially Japan. They don´t fly for fun. Which European airline flies up to twice daily to Tokyo? and to Osaka? Nagoya? Fukuoka? and soon Sapporo? Or even up to 3 daily flights to Bangkok? And many other destinations in the region (Singapore, Hong Kong, Beijing, Seoul,...).

Their TA are only "strong" in the summer, when they JFK, ORD and MIA with LAX (launching soon) and SFO.

Finnair has found its niche: EU to Asia.



Checking the current schedule their TATL ops are:

JFK daily year round
LAX 3x weekly year round

SFO only summer seasonal alternating between 4x and 3x weekly
ORD only summer seasonal alternating between daily and 5x weekly
MIA only winter seasonal, 3x weekly
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
User avatar
CARST
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:19 am

speedking wrote:
speedking wrote:
speedking wrote:
Never say never. The government of Finland is looking for a replacement for their F/A-18 Hornet fighters in the next few years. Maybe if they would choose F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, they would get a deal with Boeing for 787 that they cannot refuse. NATO...mafia...you know...


Further thought: If Finland buys 60 Super Hornets from Boeing and the deal includes let's say 20% discount from every 787 purchased afterwards plus guaranteed access by US government to the latest weapon technology purchases, how could Airbus respond to this?


The above as an example that major deals in this world do not necessarily depend just on how good some product is for some market. There is a lot of global politics behind which company gets the deal in the end, independent of all the talks of free markets.


Are you boys wearing your tinfoil hats again? Will the huge conspiracy called NATO in cooperation with the "military complex" act again? On what planet are you living?

Finnair is a private company. Yes, the Finnish state holds 55% of its parent company Finnair Plc, but Finnland is not some banana republic shitehole nation, where the state would interfere with a private company, even if it is the majority shareholder.
 
chrisp390
Topic Author
Posts: 682
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Why Did Finnair Not Order The 787?

Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:56 am

CARST wrote:
speedking wrote:
speedking wrote:

Further thought: If Finland buys 60 Super Hornets from Boeing and the deal includes let's say 20% discount from every 787 purchased afterwards plus guaranteed access by US government to the latest weapon technology purchases, how could Airbus respond to this?


The above as an example that major deals in this world do not necessarily depend just on how good some product is for some market. There is a lot of global politics behind which company gets the deal in the end, independent of all the talks of free markets.


Are you boys wearing your tinfoil hats again? Will the huge conspiracy called NATO in cooperation with the "military complex" act again? On what planet are you living?

Finnair is a private company. Yes, the Finnish state holds 55% of its parent company Finnair Plc, but Finnland is not some banana republic shitehole nation, where the state would interfere with a private company, even if it is the majority shareholder.


According to this leaked cable from a few years ago, the Finnish government tried to get Finnair to purchase aircraft that could double as refueling tankers for their fighter jets.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/07HELSINKI61_a.html

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