Boof02671
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:40 am

If they increase range by adding more fuel tanks then it reduces baggage/cargo space.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:48 am

They'd never change the cockpit layout for A322/A321XLR.

When they go A30X, you might expect to see a big refresh of the cockpit layout.
 
DALCE
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:50 am

Amiga500 wrote:
They'd never change the cockpit layout for A322/A321XLR.

When they go A30X, you might expect to see a big refresh of the cockpit layout.



Nobdy said so ;)
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Amiga500
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:27 pm

DALCE wrote:
Nobdy said so ;)


Ah, I just seen the post at the top of page 2 and assumed someone had and I'd missed it on my skim through.
 
m007j
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:23 pm

WIederling wrote:
m007j wrote:
WIederling wrote:
could you perchance provide a link and a page #, please ?


What it actually says is this:

"During 2018, the Company also recorded $66 million ($51 million net of taxes) of fair value adjustments related to aircraft purchased off lease, write-offs of
unexercised aircraft purchase options and other impairments related to certain fleet types and international slots no longer in use
."

Note 14- Special Charges is the title of this section, page 86. I posit that this does not disprove or prove the original assertion as the wording is different.

Is anyone able to reconcile the expired options with a previous United order? The chart for firm orders does not list any options still outstanding. Clearly something is not being taken up, but what type?


thanks!
is the bolded passage a recurring text in every year? (i.e. is it a general portmanteau or a specific one?)
what do you get for ~$60m in deposits? ( apropos: what is the trade value of "route slots" ?)


It's not the same each year, page 87 has similar statements for 2017 and 2016 as comparison.

2017
"During 2017 the Company recorded a $10 million ($6 million net of taxes) impairment charge related to obsolete spare parts inventory and a
$15 million ($10 million net of taxes) intangible asset impairment charge related to a maintenance service agreement."

2016
"During 2016, the Company recorded $37 million ($24 million net of taxes) of severance and benefit costs related to a voluntary early-out program for the
Company's flight attendants and other severance agreements. In 2014, more than 2,500 flight attendants elected to voluntarily separate from the Company for
a severance payment, with a maximum value of $100,000 per participant, based on years of service, with retirement dates through the end of 2016."
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:44 pm

DALCE wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Why would Airbus not use the A320 cockpit, rather than the A220 cockpit? Lets suppose I agree the A220 is newer and better. But (sadly) none of that matters. What matters is money, and the A320 cockpit is safe, functional, has many many more pilots certified in it.

You can argue I'm wrong (and that's fine, it's nice to learn) but your arguments should be about economics, not technical things.


My opinion is that it would be of benefit of both the airlines as well as A220 sales to have a shared typerating. If you go down that lane it would be more logical to implement the more modern cockpit of both, which is undoubtly the A220/C-series cockpit. This would be the economical side of it.


As has been written above, changing the A220 cockpit would take years and many many $$$$. Not even close to economically reasonable.

But what you wrote is not an economic argument. You would need to say ow this new plane using the A220 cockpit would save someone some money. Because reusing the A320 cockpit would save a large bunch of airlines a large pile in retraining costs.
 
WIederling
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:45 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Because reusing the A320 cockpit would save a large bunch of airlines a large pile in retraining costs.


Dumping newly bought up stuff to keep on selling your old stuff? That is not really an Airbus thing, is it?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:02 pm

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Because reusing the A320 cockpit would save a large bunch of airlines a large pile in retraining costs.

Dumping newly bought up stuff to keep on selling your old stuff? That is not really an Airbus thing, is it?

I thought commonality really was an Airbus thing...

Yet viewtopic.php?t=1398985 tells us A220 and A320 cockpits really aren't common, with A220 being more advanced.
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WIederling
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:54 am

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Because reusing the A320 cockpit would save a large bunch of airlines a large pile in retraining costs.

Dumping newly bought up stuff to keep on selling your old stuff? That is not really an Airbus thing, is it?

I thought commonality really was an Airbus thing...

Yet viewtopic.php?t=1398985 tells us A220 and A320 cockpits really aren't common, with A220 being more advanced.


which path would you take?
* Move CS over to Airbus style UI. ( what is differently good on CS that would really be a boon to keep? Lead Me :-)
* Move Airbus to CS style UI. ( that would create a break in Airbus UI line for a vast number of new frames vs existing frames.)

* Keep both lines as distinct.
Murphy is an optimist
 
meeshoo
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:37 am

I would be quite surprised if Airbus did anything more than relatively low-cost iterative enhancement. A321 does well, to say the least. Both leading manufacturers have to make assumptions regarding competitor's counter-moves. In today's landscape, Boeing has to make the move. And it will be up to Airbus to respond quickly - which they are pretty good at. They already solved the A380 problem. If our assumptions are correct, MoM will "solve" A330neo problem as well, so they will probably continue to eat widebody segment from the bottom by rewinging and stretching A3x family, adapting what-can-be-adapted from A220 throughout the family and charging hefty premiums somewhere around A321+ segment. If Boeing made some smokescreens and MoM will turn out to be a new 757, they would have to react very differently. It would be stupid to play your hand until you know for sure, when the potential drawing-board-to-market of your response is simply shorter. Personally, I do not really follow Boeing's strategy regarding MoM. they have a very successful 787 family, followed by enhanced 777s and one-rework-too-many narrowbody segment - they could throw a grenade into a sewer by going for a "brand new 757" and then implement lessons learned to a from-scratch 737 family replecament. The situation is not really comfortable for Airbus, as their best-seller is neither new nor old, and they would have to work hard with a response while having only one great widebody product (350-900).
 
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Revelation
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:14 am

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dumping newly bought up stuff to keep on selling your old stuff? That is not really an Airbus thing, is it?

I thought commonality really was an Airbus thing...

Yet viewtopic.php?t=1398985 tells us A220 and A320 cockpits really aren't common, with A220 being more advanced.


which path would you take?
* Move CS over to Airbus style UI. ( what is differently good on CS that would really be a boon to keep? Lead Me :-)
* Move Airbus to CS style UI. ( that would create a break in Airbus UI line for a vast number of new frames vs existing frames.)

* Keep both lines as distinct.

Depends on which problem(s) you are trying to solve.

IMHO in the long term the problem to be solved is A220 sales/profitability and the answer is more commonality with A320 to lower pilot training cost and increase component reuse.

Personally, I don't see a "lack of new stuff" problem, do you?
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:21 am

Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I thought commonality really was an Airbus thing...

Yet https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1398985 tells us A220 and A320 cockpits really aren't common, with A220 being more advanced.


which path would you take?
* Move CS over to Airbus style UI. ( what is differently good on CS that would really be a boon to keep? Lead Me :-)
* Move Airbus to CS style UI. ( that would create a break in Airbus UI line for a vast number of new frames vs existing frames.)

* Keep both lines as distinct.

Depends on which problem(s) you are trying to solve.

IMHO in the long term the problem to be solved is A220 sales/profitability and the answer is more commonality with A320 to lower pilot training cost and increase component reuse.

Personally, I don't see a "lack of new stuff" problem, do you?


I do not think anything but a new aircraft type would justify re-using the A220 cockpit. Still then lost cockpit commonality would be a drawback. It it would be cheaper, more comfortable, quieter inside, lighter than the A320 cockpit, that could help..

Image

.. but still very unlikely. Boeing never put the 757 cockpit on the 737, but retained the old 707, 727 cockpit for similar reasons I guess.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Revelation
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:04 pm

keesje wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Depends on which problem(s) you are trying to solve.

IMHO in the long term the problem to be solved is A220 sales/profitability and the answer is more commonality with A320 to lower pilot training cost and increase component reuse.

Personally, I don't see a "lack of new stuff" problem, do you?

I do not think anything but a new aircraft type would justify re-using the A220 cockpit.

It's an interesting suggestion that a clean sheet aircraft aimed at a niche market would also require significant retraining of pilots who are already certified on a safe and efficient cockpit. Perhaps commonality would go over better.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:20 pm

I’m not clear why this is a new thread vs this one?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1409905

Better to keep the discussion together than spawn lots of disconnected and repetitive discussions.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:58 pm

Airbus is big on commonality. The cockpit commonality runs from A320, over A330/340, A350 all the way to the A380. I do not expect that the A220 cockpit will be moved to other Airbus frames. I would rather expect some features of the A220 cockpit to be integrated in the whole system and the A220 moving nearer to the common Airbus cockpit, perhaps as an option.

You can go rather far in computers with emulation. Two systems that are quite different, but offer a similar front aka operator interface.
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:15 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Airbus is big on commonality. The cockpit commonality runs from A320, over A330/340, A350 all the way to the A380. I do not expect that the A220 cockpit will be moved to other Airbus frames. I would rather expect some features of the A220 cockpit to be integrated in the whole system and the A220 moving nearer to the common Airbus cockpit, perhaps as an option.

You can go rather far in computers with emulation. Two systems that are quite different, but offer a similar front aka operator interface.

An A220 with classic Airbus theme? I can see that.
BV
 
Amiga500
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yes, well, what about that breaking news the thread is based on?

“There is a gap, a natural gap that needs to be filled, so I am not sure whether the A330 coming down…and the A321 coming up, fills the gap,” said John Vitale, president and chief executive officer of Avitas, speaking on a panel of appraisers at Airfinance Journal’s Korean Airfinance event, adding: “Airbus claims the A321 has all this range and that they can put in as many seats as they are talking about. Well, no you can’t in an equal comfort level.”


Perhaps we've discussed this one before...



Erm - since when did airlines start to care about comfort levels? :twisted: ;)


Lessors (and I suppose airlines too) want another option to drive down A321 pricing. That doesn't mean it makes financial sense to Boeing for Boeing to grant their wish.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Airbus is big on commonality. The cockpit commonality runs from A320, over A330/340, A350 all the way to the A380. I do not expect that the A220 cockpit will be moved to other Airbus frames. I would rather expect some features of the A220 cockpit to be integrated in the whole system and the A220 moving nearer to the common Airbus cockpit, perhaps as an option.

You can go rather far in computers with emulation. Two systems that are quite different, but offer a similar front aka operator interface.


This is not far fetched actually.

The MD-90 was offered with a MD-95/MD-11 style cockpit as well as the classic MD-80 cockpit. As far as I know, only Saudia opted for the MD-95 cockpit. The U.S. operators wanted commonality above all, and chose the MD-80 layout.

Offering the A220 with an A320 flightdeck could be smart in the long run.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:30 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
I’m not clear why this is a new thread vs this one?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1409905

Better to keep the discussion together than spawn lots of disconnected and repetitive discussions.

Perhaps page views can be monetized the same way "DJ's Aviation" puts a.net discussions on to youtube so they can get monetized?

That's the only rationale I can think of for all the "old wine in new wine skin" threads we have here.

However there is a lot of inventiveness in finding ways to insert the same old concepts into new threads, and inventiveness is a good thing, IMHO.
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DenverTed
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:47 pm

What's the rotation angle limitation for the stretch? I'm thinking a 2.5m stretch, 47m, may be about as far as they go. Looking forward to an A322. Should be a no brainer for ROI, and a popular aircraft for airlines with models in premium configurations, like United.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:29 am

WIederling wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dumping newly bought up stuff to keep on selling your old stuff? That is not really an Airbus thing, is it?

I thought commonality really was an Airbus thing...

Yet https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1398985 tells us A220 and A320 cockpits really aren't common, with A220 being more advanced.


which path would you take?
* Move CS over to Airbus style UI. ( what is differently good on CS that would really be a boon to keep? Lead Me :-)
* Move Airbus to CS style UI. ( that would create a break in Airbus UI line for a vast number of new frames vs existing frames.)

* Keep both lines as distinct.


I believe completely redoing the cockpit on any modern airliner is hundreds of million or billions of $$$, and years of writing software. I don't think it can be done practically. I'm aware of the newer displays on the 767 (for example) but I don't think that involved rewriting all of the flight control software.

When it comes time to make a new airplane, I think you pick the cockpit that has the least total cost, including pilot retraining as part of the cost. Which I imagine is the A320 cockpit.
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:56 pm

Apparently Airbus was offering AirSpace configurations last week, for longer haul NB flights. Bigger bins, special economy class concept. I know high comfort crew seats have been selected too, after a competition.

Image

Sam Chui made some pictures (https://samchui.com/2019/04/08/aircraft ... KuVsYVNe9c)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:57 pm

.
United adds A321XLR as possible 757 replacement

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-457311/

Not really unexpected I think.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
 
 
tealnz
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:42 pm

Has anyone seen any hint there’s an XLR-based A322 in the works?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:53 pm

tealnz wrote:
Has anyone seen any hint there’s an XLR-based A322 in the works?


Airbus shelved work on a modernized and stretched A321 in April 2018.

The surprise decision to back away from the proposed “A320neo-plus” and “A321neo-plus,” which would lengthen and modernize both models, comes as Airbus (AIR.PA) continues to face problems in increasing output for the current versions.

“The ramp-up is not going as well as hoped,” a person with knowledge of the supply chain said. Another said Airbus had declared industrial matters top priority amid engine shortages, calling off plans to show the A320neo-plus design to airlines.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1HH1SS

Instead of stretching the A321, Airbus decided to do a smaller change and just do another weight increase, which for now is being branded as the A321XLR. They may revisit a stretched A321 in the future.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:17 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Has anyone seen any hint there’s an XLR-based A322 in the works?


Airbus shelved work on a modernized and stretched A321 in April 2018.

The surprise decision to back away from the proposed “A320neo-plus” and “A321neo-plus,” which would lengthen and modernize both models, comes as Airbus (AIR.PA) continues to face problems in increasing output for the current versions.

“The ramp-up is not going as well as hoped,” a person with knowledge of the supply chain said. Another said Airbus had declared industrial matters top priority amid engine shortages, calling off plans to show the A320neo-plus design to airlines.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKBN1HH1SS

Instead of stretching the A321, Airbus decided to do a smaller change and just do another weight increase, which for now is being branded as the A321XLR. They may revisit a stretched A321 in the future.


News, that are a year old, are old news.
Since than A320 family deliveries have been catching up, leading to a record year in 2018 and are actually at record level as it is. Never did Airbus deliver so many A320 family frames in the beginning of the year. The ramp up is real.
There are newer communications by the new guys at Airbus. What Airbus will actually do, I assume we will hear at Paris. The last indications, including the planed EIS date, point to rather bigger changes.
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:28 pm

tealnz wrote:
Has anyone seen any hint there’s an XLR-based A322 in the works?


I has been considered since 1997. Range reduction prevented it than. in 2017-18 they looked at Plus and Plus Plus variants. Now the MTOW has grown to 101t and range to 4700NM. By halting the Plus studies, Airbus aimed to force Boeing to show its hand on the middle-market segment before risking its own capital with a response. Now Boeing is holding its horses moving ahead poses little risk / additional investment for Airbus to trade some range for capacity.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:57 pm

keesje wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Has anyone seen any hint there’s an XLR-based A322 in the works?


I has been considered since 1997. Range reduction prevented it than. in 2017-18 they looked at Plus and Plus Plus variants. Now the MTOW has grown to 101t and range to 4700NM. By halting the Plus studies, Airbus aimed to force Boeing to show its hand on the middle-market segment before risking its own capital with a response. Now Boeing is holding its horses moving ahead poses little risk / additional investment for Airbus to trade some range for capacity.


Airbus needs to launch now in order to EIS the XLR some years before Boeing can deliver many NMAs.

I envisage a lot of already-booked A320-family production slots being allocated to the XLR, positioning Airbus to deliver XLRs in large numbers very soon after its EIS.
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Will Airbus move? A321XLR, A322 launching customers..

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:08 am

You have to wonder why Scherer repeatedly mentions of new versions of an A321.

Speaking at the IATA AGM in Seoul, Airbus chief commercial officer Christian Scherer hinted at plans for “extended-range versions [plural]” of the A321 in its single-aisle line-up.

Asked when such a derivative could be available for delivery, he said: “The earliest you can expect any new versions of an A321 with some serious work done on it would be the 2023-24 timeframe.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/extended-range-a321xlr-available-by-2024-airbus-458630/

Personally I think a same MTOW, 18-24 seat stretch A322NEO could be an extremely usefull aircraft. Maybe even more than a A321XLR.

Image

I wonder if PW and CFM will come up with slightly uprated engines for a 101t MTOW..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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