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cirrusdragoon
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Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:40 pm

It seems Harbour Air of Vancouver ,B.C is set to convert their fleet engines to electric power. The dawn of a new era, a step in the right direction!

Here is a link to a news piece : https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... -aircraft/
 
DominoxX
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:59 pm

amazing news!
Thank u, next.
 
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OA940
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:12 pm

I hope this becomes a successful endeavor, but I'm not entirely sure electric power is yet up to these standards. However I'm by far not an expert, and if this does work, it will definitely kickstart a whole new era towards efficiency and environmental care for aviation.
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Karlsands
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 pm

As said above I hope this works out for the best and for the future .I do wonder how cold weather will affect operations in this regard however, as I know electric cars have lower range etc when temps drop to an extent
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:45 pm

This would be a logical place to start, and part of that in both cities seaplanes land almost at city center, Victoria right in front of the parliament building.
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AirFiero
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:01 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
This would be a logical place to start, and part of that in both cities seaplanes land almost at city center, Victoria right in front of the parliament building.


And when the batteries run out, they simply drop into the water! :lol:
 
osiris30
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:35 am

If done right an electric powered aircraft would have much lower maintenance than a conventional combustion-based system.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:36 am

Yeah converting a Beaver designed in 1947 with a Pratt R-985 to electricity should be a cinch. Balancing the damned might be challenging enough.

GF
 
PerVG
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:54 am

Well sure, when your longest route is 140km (75nmi) and you can land anywhere between and just sail the rest of the away, you can toy around with electric planes..
 
flyorski
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 am

This is awesome!
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
dtw9
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:32 am

So let me get this right. The initial flights will last between 10-20 minutes due to battery limitations. And how long will the turn around be to recharge the batteries, 24hrs? First flight not until 2022 if all goes as planned. Sounds like you’re all getting ahead of yourselves here.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:05 pm

flyorski wrote:
This is awesome!


I agree this is super-exciting, even more so that a Canadian airline is pioneering the technology of the future.

Karlsands wrote:
As said above I hope this works out for the best and for the future .I do wonder how cold weather will affect operations in this regard however, as I know electric cars have lower range etc when temps drop to an extent


That part of BC never gets very cold. Unlike most of the rest of Canada, -5C is extreme cold for Vancouver. As such, it's an ideal place to start.

osiris30 wrote:
If done right an electric powered aircraft would have much lower maintenance than a conventional combustion-based system.


Definitely. It's why most auto manufacturers aren't gun-ho to have mass electric car adoption as fixing this hundreds of breakable parts of an ICE is highly profitable for dealerships.

dtw9 wrote:
So let me get this right. The initial flights will last between 10-20 minutes due to battery limitations. And how long will the turn around be to recharge the batteries, 24hrs? First flight not until 2022 if all goes as planned. Sounds like you’re all getting ahead of yourselves here.


That's all the flying time their aircraft need to make the hop from downtown Vancouver to downtown Victoria. As far as turn times, I'd imagine the aircraft will have the same fast recharging capabilities as transit systems that are introducing electric buses into their fleets.
 
dtw9
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:33 pm

That's all the flying time their aircraft need to make the hop from downtown Vancouver to downtown Victoria. As far as turn times, I'd imagine the aircraft will have the same fast recharging capabilities as transit systems that are introducing electric buses into their fleets.


With a top speed of 155 mph and a 10-20 minute battery life they're still going to come up 10-20 miles short unless they plan on having the passengers row the last part of the trip
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:58 pm

In my wilder imagination mind wanders and a seaplane drops batteries at point of going airborne. Sort of a clunky JATO. Voila! there are the 25 extra miles. More prosaic, I am imagining high tech capacitors which only would have to hold a charge for several minutes have a future in this sort of aircraft. Obviously not here yet. Real point is that manufacturers are at the point of predicting and promising an actual plane with upwards of 100 mile range, and make a profit for buyer and seller.
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UpNAWAy
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:07 pm

BTW anyone in Vancouver must go to the Flying Beaver Bar & Grill right next door to YVR and watch the float planes come and go...Including ones that drive out of the water and across the street onto the YVR AOA. Its and aviation enthusiast must.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:12 pm

Great place
 
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beaverhunter
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yeah converting a Beaver designed in 1947 with a Pratt R-985 to electricity should be a cinch. Balancing the damned might be challenging enough.

GF


As a fan of the DHC-2 Beaver I don't think it is the right aircraft to be converted to electric. Best to introduce a new design made of modern composite materials.
 
Conniston
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yeah converting a Beaver designed in 1947 with a Pratt R-985 to electricity should be a cinch. Balancing the damned might be challenging enough.

GF


Not a cinch, it would be sacrilege.
 
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beaverhunter
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:28 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yeah converting a Beaver designed in 1947 with a Pratt R-985 to electricity should be a cinch. Balancing the damned might be challenging enough.

GF


As a fan of the DHC-2 Beaver I don't think it is the right aircraft to be converted to electric. Best to introduce a new design made of modern composite materials.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:44 pm

beaverhunter wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yeah converting a Beaver designed in 1947 with a Pratt R-985 to electricity should be a cinch. Balancing the damned might be challenging enough.

GF


As a fan of the DHC-2 Beaver I don't think it is the right aircraft to be converted to electric. Best to introduce a new design made of modern composite materials.


Aren't their Beavers already converted to turboprop? Why not electric engine? The balance issue would be just a matter of where you place the battery packs.

The recharging issue could be sorted with hot swapping battery packs. But I doubt that's what they're planning.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:44 pm

You know electric is still questionable technology at this point when they only want to try it on commercial float planes. Battery dies, that’s fine you can land anywhere and you don’t go very far anyway. A step in what may get the right direction one day, but a very small one. What happens on on a larger plane when the batteries are low and yet you need full power for a go around for example?
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SwissCanuck
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:48 pm

767333ER wrote:
What happens on on a larger plane when the batteries are low and yet you need full power for a go around for example?


The same thing that happens on a larger plane when fuel is low and you need full power for a go-around, for example? Of course it'll be the same story, reserves.
 
dtw9
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:52 pm

I think another concern is going to be what effect saltwater corrosion will have on the electric motors.
 
divemaster08
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:53 pm

Ive always wondered why they talk about batteries and not look at the hydrogen fuel cell for this kinda idea. Makes electricity for the engine and all its putting back out into the air is water.
My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:23 pm

dtw9 wrote:
So let me get this right. The initial flights will last between 10-20 minutes due to battery limitations. And how long will the turn around be to recharge the batteries, 24hrs? First flight not until 2022 if all goes as planned. Sounds like you’re all getting ahead of yourselves here.


Way, way ahead of yourselves. Starting to test a prototype within a couple of months doesn't mean 'poised.' It doesn't mean 'set to convert.' PR nonsense - way ahead of the technology or carrier investment.
 
LDRA
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:57 pm

LOL!
 
kalvado
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:06 pm

SwissCanuck wrote:
767333ER wrote:
What happens on on a larger plane when the batteries are low and yet you need full power for a go around for example?


The same thing that happens on a larger plane when fuel is low and you need full power for a go-around, for example? Of course it'll be the same story, reserves.

Larger plane fuel reserves include go-around, hold, flying to an alternative airport and landing there.
I don't know how it works with sailplanes, which are less picky about landing site - but may be more picky about the weather, especially outside of a harbor.
Would these guys need to carry extra 40+ minutes of flight time with them, or just a prayer (a wing is already there)?
 
dtw9
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:26 pm

kalvado wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
767333ER wrote:
What happens on on a larger plane when the batteries are low and yet you need full power for a go around for example?


The same thing that happens on a larger plane when fuel is low and you need full power for a go-around, for example? Of course it'll be the same story, reserves.

Larger plane fuel reserves include go-around, hold, flying to an alternative airport and landing there.
I don't know how it works with sailplanes, which are less picky about landing site - but may be more picky about the weather, especially outside of a harbor.
Would these guys need to carry extra 40+ minutes of flight time with them, or just a prayer (a wing is already there)?



So now we’re down to a 15-25 mile range if you need to leave 40 percent battery life for go arounds and alternate airport diversions. Sounds like a sound business practice. Now I know electric motors have more torque than conventional engines but I’m curious just how much energy will be used just getting out of the water with all the drag involved
 
Dominion301
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:30 pm

dtw9 wrote:
That's all the flying time their aircraft need to make the hop from downtown Vancouver to downtown Victoria. As far as turn times, I'd imagine the aircraft will have the same fast recharging capabilities as transit systems that are introducing electric buses into their fleets.


With a top speed of 155 mph and a 10-20 minute battery life they're still going to come up 10-20 miles short unless they plan on having the passengers row the last part of the trip


The article I read about the Beaver is it'll have a 1/2 hour flying range with a 1/2 hour backup (i.e. reserve fuel). That's plenty to operate Harbour Air's shortest schedule flights, such as the 20 minute Vancouver to Nanaimo hop. Keep in mind, battery technology, given the century of neglect (in the early 20th century 1/2 of all cars were electric) is still primitive and has a lot of upside potential. 2019 for electric aviation is about on par with 1919 powered flight technology if you think of it that way. 1919 was when the world's first airlines were just getting off the ground. No doubt there were a lot of skeptics then about the viability of schedule passenger transport flights, just as there are now with the idea of electric propulsion powering scheduled pax ops.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:01 pm

Go around for a seaplane is not necessarily quite the same situation as an airport landing. Probably for the first models landing will be in a direction that allows two landings with one approach, and one take off and landing per take off. There may be no need to 'go around' This could result in a longer 'taxi' to base. Based on my observations in Victoria seaplanes taxi to the inner harbor, they land in the outer harbor. Anybody know the policy reasons for this? I suspect safety is one of them.
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GalebG4
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:31 pm

This is nice news, but I have a couple of questions?
1. Who is going to electify dhc-2 or 3, Cessna 208 and dhc-6?
2. Does electric motor that powerful even exist and is it certified?
3. When they are going to certify everything(stc. for everything in between prop. and firewall) since you are not allowed to fly passengers on experimental aircraft?
4. What is the timeframe of everything planned?
5. Has anyone made battery packs certified?

This is extremely nice news, many operators does fly short hops so electricity does make a lot of financial sense. It is 100% viable, but I predict this is unfortunately going to be reality in 2 to 5 years when we even see quadcopters that “might” take place. I personally wouldn’t like to see quadcopters because I like flying planes, but unfortunately we can’t stop unstoppable future. :hissyfit:
 
dtw9
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:33 pm

Straight from the horses mouth

Due to battery limitations, Harbour Air’s first all-electric routes are likely to involve 10- to 20-minute trips between relatively close destinations, and not the Seattle-Vancouver “nerd bird” route, Ganzarski said. But the planes’ range will increase as battery technology improves.

So where will the first flights be as they can’t even make it to Victoria. And how long before battery technology makes it possible to do this route. Sounds like a ways off to me

https://www.geekwire.com/2019/magnix-va ... c-flights/
 
Elementalism
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:08 pm

Battery technology will have to come leaps and bounds forwards before it displaces fossil fuels in jet aircraft. Weight and fire are the very real issues this technology has to deal with. When a battery goes there is no way to stop the fire. It brings its own oxidizer. Weight, how much of the plane has to be battery to fly 2 hours on an A320 sized aircraft? And lenergy isnt free. It will cost a lot of money to fast charge batteries for quick turn around. I think something like Hydrogen fuel cells has a better chance in aviation.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:11 pm

How's this for interesting by the buzz Harbour Air is generating with electrification: https://www.nanaimobulletin.com/busines ... panelists/

“I’ve had phone calls from other operators, one very large one I’m going to be meeting with…” Egan said. “When we came out with the announcement in February he called right away and said, ‘I want you to convert my fleet of 500 aircraft,’ and I said, ‘Whoa. Slow down. We’ve got a few steps to go through first, but we’re very, very interested.’ So now, suddenly, there’s this economic benefit or different revenue stream we didn’t think of before.”


The operator is unnamed.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:44 pm

Every single article is from March 25th or March 26th. Are we certain it isn't an April fools joke that got out early?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:58 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Every single article is from March 25th or March 26th. Are we certain it isn't an April fools joke that got out early?


Why would you think that?

Transport Canada just gave the green light for Harbour Air to undertake the world's first commercial electric test flight on December 11th: https://theprovince.com/news/local-news ... b3e39387e3
 
AirbusCanada
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The world’s first electric seaplane takes flight in Vancoucer

Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:50 pm

Harbour Air, a British Columbia-based commercial seaplane airlane operator, has developed a new all-electric plane in partnership with MagniX.

The company retrofitted a de Havilland Canada Beaver seaplane with a 750-hp electric motor developed by MagniX.

They didn’t confirm the energy capacity of the battery pack installed in the plane, but they did say that it weighs “one tonne” (2,200 lbs). At an energy density of 300 Wh/kg, it would mean a 300 kWh battery pack.

https://electrek.co/2019/12/10/world-first-electric-seaplane-takes-flight/
 
Dominion301
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:13 pm

So they did it a day earlier than planed. Today is a bit of aviation history: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/h ... 46923.html

Harbour Air, North America's largest seaplane airline and magniX, the company powering the electric aviation revolution, today announced the successful flight of the world's first all-electric commercial aircraft. The successful flight of the ePlane, a six-passenger DHC-2 de Havilland Beaver magnified by a 750-horsepower (560 kW) magni500 propulsion system, took place on the Fraser River at Harbour Air Seaplanes terminal in Richmond (YVR South) this morning. The plane was piloted by Harbour Air CEO and founder Greg McDougall. This historic flight signifies the start of the third era in aviation – the electric age.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:26 pm

"Good afternoon passengers, owing to a problem we're going to need to return to base after we've dumped fuel !" (Opens cockpit window... splish… spash) "Ok we're good now !"
 
Jean Leloup
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:10 pm

Very impressed that they were able to conduct this test so quickly after announcing the plan. However, the obvious elephant in the room will continue to be the range - and I note that this question was not addressed in any way in the recent news, which is probably a good indicator that they haven't had a magical unexpected breakthrough in that department.

As anyone familiar with Harbour's network will know, many of their flights are indeed very short. But if they are unable to make it from Vancouver harbour to Nanaimo harbour (I believe their shortest route?) with current battery technology, then there isn't really much point to all this, is there?

-JL
Jean Leloup - original a.net moderator and still recovering!
 
Canuck600
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:29 pm

I think at this stage it's proof of concept & working with Transport Canada to come up with new rules & regulations.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:33 pm

https://www.magnix.aero/ Is the company providing the propulsion system
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:00 am

Canuck600 wrote:
I think at this stage it's proof of concept & working with Transport Canada to come up with new rules & regulations.


Correct and Loganair along with Cranfield University in the UK are currently embroiled in some R&D aimed at battery powering their BN Islander fleet on their very short Scottish inter-island services. Some of which only require an airborne time of 2-3 minutes.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/electric-pioneer/
 
rampbro
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:04 am

I listened to an interview on the CBC this morning with Greg MacDougall. From what I gathered, their play is to begin the certification process now, banking that battery technology improvements during the 2-3 year certification cycle will result in a greater range of the aircraft once it is certified and ready to go into revenue service. Said a different way, the risk they are accepting is that the first certification cycle may not be adequate to certify the new or improved battery technologies which emerge during that time.
 
DaleKramer
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Re: The world’s first electric seaplane takes flight in Vancoucer

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:21 pm

Please edit your topic title to portray the fact that Harbour Air is now claiming this to be the worlds first commercial electric seaplane..

The Harbour Air electric seaplane is not the 'worlds first electric seaplane'...

On July 18, 2011 the electric Lazair amphibian took off water with me in it... Dale Kramer

Here is some data that is easy to find on the internet to support that 'The Harbour Air electric seaplane is NOT the 'worlds first electric seaplane' :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YINO0aoSAGg
https://www.canadapost.ca/assets/pdf/bl ... no3_en.pdf


Regards,
Dale Kramer
 
Boeingphan
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Re: The world’s first electric seaplane takes flight in Vancoucer

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:07 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Harbour Air, a British Columbia-based commercial seaplane airlane operator, has developed a new all-electric plane in partnership with MagniX.

The company retrofitted a de Havilland Canada Beaver seaplane with a 750-hp electric motor developed by MagniX.

They didn’t confirm the energy capacity of the battery pack installed in the plane, but they did say that it weighs “one tonne” (2,200 lbs). At an energy density of 300 Wh/kg, it would mean a 300 kWh battery pack.

https://electrek.co/2019/12/10/world-first-electric-seaplane-takes-flight/


Thanks for sharing AirbusCanada! I think it's a worthy topic for sure.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:41 am

Jean Leloup wrote:
Very impressed that they were able to conduct this test so quickly after announcing the plan. However, the obvious elephant in the room will continue to be the range - and I note that this question was not addressed in any way in the recent news, which is probably a good indicator that they haven't had a magical unexpected breakthrough in that department.

As anyone familiar with Harbour's network will know, many of their flights are indeed very short. But if they are unable to make it from Vancouver harbour to Nanaimo harbour (I believe their shortest route?) with current battery technology, then there isn't really much point to all this, is there?

-JL


The ZNA-YHS (Nanaimo Harbour-Sechelt) route is only 35 km long. Probably a candidate for the eventual inaugural scheduled electric flight in a couple of years time.

ZNA-CXH (Vancouver Harbour) is much longer at 62 km.

Indeed the speed with which they achieved the first flight is impressive.
 
pune
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Re: The world’s first electric seaplane takes flight in Vancoucer

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:13 am

There have been quite a few topics which have been talking about electric planes and I have been seeing them but it all seems random a bit, maybe if somebody were to move all the news to one section, one corner, it would have more visibility. For e.g. the Air Race E https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Race_E and airbus involvement as a founding partner which I guess was also shared in one of the threads would be nice to have it all in one corner so no news is missed of who's doing what in the space of electric planes.
 
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ssteve
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Re: Harbour Air poised to start worlds first all electric fleet

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:35 am

If these planes are currently using leaded avgas, it makes the improvement even nicer.
 
Dominion301
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Re: The world’s first electric seaplane takes flight in Vancoucer

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:06 pm

pune wrote:
There have been quite a few topics which have been talking about electric planes and I have been seeing them but it all seems random a bit, maybe if somebody were to move all the news to one section, one corner, it would have more visibility. For e.g. the Air Race E https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Race_E and airbus involvement as a founding partner which I guess was also shared in one of the threads would be nice to have it all in one corner so no news is missed of who's doing what in the space of electric planes.


Having an electric aviation thread sounds great. Want to start one and link it to this thread?

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