pabloeing
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LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:44 pm

Awesome news minutes ago ¡¡¡
Lh plans to buy more than 100 frames :
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-lufth ... KKCN1R72A2
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:45 pm

Haha. Why would they order MAX. That is a laugh. NMA I can see...
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:47 pm

Looking at the link, he has kind words for Boeing. Actually, color me surprised. At the end of the day, manufacturers want (need) healthy competition.

“We have not lost our trust in Boeing” following two fatal 737 MAX crashes and the grounding earlier this month of the worldwide fleet of that aircraft, Spohr said in a meeting with reporters.

“They’ve built wonderful aircraft over the decades, and I am sure they will fix the current issue,” Spohr said of Boeing.

“Between Boeing and the FAA, I think this country will not rest until you have gone to the ground of what really happened there and is there something to improve.”
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OA940
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:50 pm

They already have 100 neos on order, so the only reason I can see for them going for the MAX is if they need those 100 planes faster than Airbus can offer them.
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pabloeing
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:51 pm

Amazing battle we will see here for the order.....
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:53 pm

OR...

Is the only way to be the first through the "NMA door" later is to oder MAX now and change up?
Last edited by GEUltraFan9XGTF on Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KPDX
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:53 pm

Does anyone actually think this is going any other direction but to top up on NEOs?
 
Blerg
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:04 pm

Could this be a favour to Boeing to bring back some confidence after all this bad PR?
 
787X30
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:06 pm

Risk mitigation goes both ways. The LH group is heavily dependent on Airbus these days. Too heavily?

The paradox of the situation around the MAX is that it facilitates to convince investors not to put all eggs into the same nest even if that harms immediate profitability.
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:07 pm

I think this is an order rather for Eurowings(+Brussels) and maybe SunExpress, also Condor (?) than LH itself. But it would be nice to see some Boeing NB in LH Colors though. But it will never happen.

AFAIK the Eurowings fleet is cluttered with very old A32X frames (ex LH D-AIP* series), old A320 ex-Germanwings with IAE engines, A320s and B738 ex Air Berlin. Sometime they need to provide a standardized fleet.
 
bond787
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:07 pm

Standard negotiating tactic to get a better price from Airbus.
 
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:08 pm

Blerg wrote:
Could this be a favour to Boeing to bring back some confidence after all this bad PR?


That was my thought for a moment as well. But why would LH of all companies do that?
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:10 pm

You know, the upshot of the MAX tragedy - if there is one - is that the plane is going to go under every regulatory microscope out there. Unprecedented review. IF - and that is a big IF - the plane eeks it out with flying colors, one could assume that it is a pretty darn safe and proven plane, which will also be available (thanks to the bad PR) for bottom-basement prices.
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Polot
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:11 pm

Nobody is going to immediately discount the Max. Now is the perfect time to try and fight for excellent pricing. But this order is still Airbus’s to lose.
 
VV
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:12 pm

A320neo with PW engines for obvious reasons.

End of discussion.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:14 pm

KPDX wrote:
Does anyone actually think this is going any other direction but to top up on NEOs?

Yes. They already have ~150 neos on order. The commonality factor is not an issue. LH is a very pragmatic airline.
My question is: who are these aircraft for? The NEOs they have on order are already more than their existing narrowbody fleet. another 100 will nearly double their existing NB fleet. I'm thinking this could be an order for Eurowings.
And then there's the price. Nothing would be better for Boeing than to have a massive order for the MAX from a blue chip airline like LH.
Last edited by airbazar on Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:15 pm

VV wrote:
A320neo with PW engines for obvious reasons.

End of discussion.

Well the PW engines is not obvious, LH also has LEAPs on order for part of their Neo fleet.
 
Andy33
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:18 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
I think this is an order rather for Eurowings(+Brussels) and maybe SunExpress, also Condor (?) than LH itself.

Why would Lufthansa be ordering planes for Condor, which has been part of the Thomas Cook group since 2004? Unless you think Lufthansa is about to buy back the shares it sold to Thomas Cook?
 
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enzo011
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:27 pm

Boeing would be looking for a win and to get some confidence in their products so I think that LH may just get a great deal if they do go for the MAX.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:32 pm

Only reason they would go with Boeing, the problem may be fixed, AND they could get very close delivery dates due to cancellations by Garuda and possibly others. Boeing may also be cutting them a REALLY good deal. In the end though, I see an order for 100+ options for the A321NEO and LR
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george77300
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:32 pm

787X30 wrote:
Risk mitigation goes both ways. The LH group is heavily dependent on Airbus these days. Too heavily?

The paradox of the situation around the MAX is that it facilitates to convince investors not to put all eggs into the same nest even if that harms immediate profitability.


Risk mitigation quite possibly. Maybe for OS/LX to go along side the 777/787. And the neos at LH?

Imagine if a worldwide grounding of MAX or NEO happens when the fleet sizes get bigger. A one type airline would be in trouble.

They are both good aeroplanes so maybe we’ll see more airline groups diversify their fleet offerings especially when they have hundreds. Ryanair are doing just that and looking for 100 A321neo for Ryanair “Austria”. aka Lauda
 
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:36 pm

If LH is building its LCC around EW and SN, which is built around the A333 in WB terms, it would make no sense to have the MAX fulfill their NB needs. I don't see it at LH either. Nor LX. That many would be too many for OS. Meh. It will never happen. Just a bargaining chip against Airbus to which they could always respond, "You want a death trap? We're worried for your customers. You want an airplane? The price hasn't budged."
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LAX772LR
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:37 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
also Condor (?) than LH itself.

Condor is owned by Thomas Cook; has nothing to do with Lufthansa anymore, in terms of ownership.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
IWMBH
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:47 pm

I would be stunned if this is going to be a MAX order. This is airbus’ order to lose.
 
Kilopond
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:49 pm

Lufthansa would be plain stupid to downgrade to the MAX for one simple reason: containerised luggage. Their operations heavily depend on flexibility. For instance, passengers missed their connection, bags have to be unloaded. Then the pax still make it at the very last minute and bags have to be re-loaded again. Now this process takes some three minutes, which would be absolutely impossible with the outdated MAX.
 
beechnut
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:53 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I would be stunned if this is going to be a MAX order. This is airbus’ order to lose.


Same was said about Air Canada...

Would these aircraft meant to be spread around some of LH's sister companies?

Beech
 
mat66
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:55 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I would be stunned if this is going to be a MAX order. This is airbus’ order to lose.


Wouldn‘t surprise me, if they went MAX. It is still LH and would make sense for several reasons. I‘d say it is 60-40% Airbus, at most.
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:00 pm

Fingers crossed for the MAX! If they do decide to go for the MAX, it’ll renew the world’s faith in Boeing, and that would be great!
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YellowJ
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:08 pm

Kilopond wrote:
Lufthansa would be plain stupid to downgrade to the MAX for one simple reason: containerised luggage. Their operations heavily depend on flexibility. For instance, passengers missed their connection, bags have to be unloaded. Then the pax still make it at the very last minute and bags have to be re-loaded again. Now this process takes some three minutes, which would be absolutely impossible with the outdated MAX.


Yet, they don't seem to think it's a issue; only you. :scratchchin:
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:08 pm

KPDX wrote:
Does anyone actually think this is going any other direction but to top up on NEOs?


Considering that most, if not all, of their NB fleet are in the A320 family, it seems to make a lot of sense to add to the A20N order. And that's factoring all of LH Group's various brands. Granted, there are a few 767s and 777s scattered around the system, along with the 744/748s, but LH seems to be committed to AB for both NBs and WBs.

Then again, I don't think that too many people expected AA to cancel their A359 order in favor of more 788s. I'm guessing that LH talking to B is probably a negotiating ploy to get a better deal from A.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:12 pm

I definitely won't say "never" about seeing the MAX in LH colors, but I think this will either be all NEOs or a split order at the very least. Interested to see where this goes, and if it indeed gets them a nice discount on NEOs.
@DadCelo
 
YellowJ
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:14 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
KPDX wrote:
Does anyone actually think this is going any other direction but to top up on NEOs?


Considering that most, if not all, of their NB fleet are in the A320 family, it seems to make a lot of sense to add to the A20N order. And that's factoring all of LH Group's various brands. Granted, there are a few 767s and 777s scattered around the system, along with the 744/748s, but LH seems to be committed to AB for both NBs and WBs.

Then again, I don't think that too many people expected AA to cancel their A359 order in favor of more 788s. I'm guessing that LH talking to B is probably a negotiating ploy to get a better deal from A.


LH was also a previous 737 operator.

I find it odd for LH to go into detail of their confidence in the MAX, unless they were seriously considering it. Boeing might have put together a screaming deal, that allows transfers to the NMA; in which case I can see the clear attraction.
 
787X30
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:20 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
... but LH seems to be committed to AB for both NBs and WBs.


Not too many carriers in the 500+ airplanes' league seem to "commit to" one singular manufacturer only.
Last edited by 787X30 on Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:22 pm

Kilopond wrote:
Lufthansa would be plain stupid to downgrade to the MAX for one simple reason: containerised luggage. Their operations heavily depend on flexibility. For instance, passengers missed their connection, bags have to be unloaded. Then the pax still make it at the very last minute and bags have to be re-loaded again. Now this process takes some three minutes, which would be absolutely impossible with the outdated MAX.

That depends where exactly the bag is. Someone making a tight connection will likely be one of the last bags loaded, meaning finding it on a 737 probably won’t be too difficult. Reloading a bag on the 737 is not difficult at all.
Contaner advantage is you can load them away from the aircraft, before the aircraft even arrives. Less so in regards to dealing with bags from tight connections where it is basically a wash.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:25 pm

787X30 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
... but LH seems to be committed to AB for both NBs and WBs.


Not too many carriers in the 500+ airplanes' league seem to "commit to" one singular manufacturer only.


I don't disagree with that assessment, but LH Group has no 737s among any of their brands. That's why I made the observation.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
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texl1649
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:26 pm

Joe Sutter designed the 737 for LH, for goodness sakes, it was launched on Feb 1 1965 and LH managed to become the launch customer by the 19th. They tend to operate a fleet of every imaginable aircraft.

Trivia tidbit I had to look up to confirm my recollection: LH convinced them to initially stretch the -100 to seat...100 people, and the concern as to deep stalls with tail engine options is what led to the under-wing twin planform so...prevalent today.

"From its own 727 development work, and from lessons being learned elsewhere, Boeing knew that T-tail designs were prone to deep, sometimes unrecoverable stalls. “Deep stall was a consideration. I went to my office and took out a three-view drawing and cut the engines out and started putting them in different locations. I felt we could put the [engine] barrel under the wing and get the turbine out behind the rear spar,” says Sutter."

I imagine Sutton would have little patience with the MCAS system grafted onto his baby jetliner in latter days.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-204505/
 
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Channex757
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:34 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Haha. Why would they order MAX. That is a laugh. NMA I can see...

Lufthansa has a policy of shorthaul at FRA and MUC being mainline and everything else done by Eurowings. That creates distinct subfleets.

Same reason they ordered the A320NEO with Pratts and the next with CFM. They can. It's such a large organisation that aircraft can be placed wherever and Lufthansa Technik can support them all.

Don't write off the MAX at Lufthansa Group. If the money side is right, they will bite. Still seems odd to me for Lufthansa NOT to have a Bobby or ten running around the place....and I can definitely see a fleet of them dropping smartly into the regions of Germany and other branches of LH.
 
787X30
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:36 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
... but LH Group has no 737s among any of their brands. That's why I made the observation.

TK/LH (parity) joint venture SunExpress ops a substantial fleet of NGs, with MAXs on order.
 
lhrnue
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:36 pm

As many commented, LH has a long history with Boeing and not least with the 737. So to say this order cannot happen is proven wrong by history. But this order will only happen, when the current issue with the MAX is understood and solved.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:38 pm

Or maybe the real competition here is the A22X. Seems way too tempting for Airbus not to offer a sweet deal on it or a A22X/A32X combo.
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LSZH34
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:40 pm

The MAX gotta be a joke... Some of the neos are certainly for OS, maybe SN
 
Kilopond
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:41 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Could this be a favour to Boeing to bring back some confidence after all this bad PR?


That was my thought for a moment as well. But why would LH of all companies do that?


;) Welcome to the world of crony capitalism! ;) Lufthansa Technik is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) MRO partner for Boeing planes worldwide. Even "foes" like Ryanair and Emirates use them.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:42 pm

Presumably Boeing will have to first fix the problem and then convince all safety authorities etc of the fix.

On top of this, LH will have to assess the damage done to public confidence in the plane and whether the presumably good price on offer is good enough on the balance sheet against the equity missing in the other area.
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gatibosgru
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:43 pm

If LH does indeed order the MAX, you have to believe the terms must favor LH heavily. It'll be a huge PR boost for Boeing and the MAX right now.
@DadCelo
 
IWMBH
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:48 pm

beechnut wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I would be stunned if this is going to be a MAX order. This is airbus’ order to lose.


Same was said about Air Canada...

Would these aircraft meant to be spread around some of LH's sister companies?

Beech


Yeah but LH has already NEO’s on order, so it’s not the same. But then again, never say never.
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:51 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
I think this is an order rather for Eurowings(+Brussels) and maybe SunExpress, also Condor (?) than LH itself.

Why would Lufthansa be ordering planes for Condor, which has been part of the Thomas Cook group since 2004? Unless you think Lufthansa is about to buy back the shares it sold to Thomas Cook?


Indeed I think they will buy back Condor.
 
airzona11
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:59 pm

The US3 operate mixed fleets. The LH Group is large enough for a mixed fleet of 737s/A320s.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:03 pm

OA940 wrote:
They already have 100 neos on order, so the only reason I can see for them going for the MAX is if they need those 100 planes faster than Airbus can offer them.


Depends on the missions LH wants them to do. After all AA split its narrow body order. They got the A321 and Max 8.
 
RalXWB
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:19 pm

The Chance of LH ordering 737 is as high as UA ordering any Airbus.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LH to order 100 B737MAX or A320NEO next year

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:23 pm

The LEAP-1B has done exceptionally well. If you want to be stuck on current issues fine. I would refer you to the AF Paris airshow crash that really has nothing relevant to add. Boeing will fix the issues. My barber shop is a pilot hangout and the MAX pilots love the aircraft and brag about the economics.

OA940 wrote:
They already have 100 neos on order, so the only reason I can see for them going for the MAX is if they need those 100 planes faster than Airbus can offer them.

Actually, with the right terms, LH group is ordering enough to make this work.

This forces Pratt to offer better parts and support terms. ;)

Oh yeah, and get better timing on deliveries as well as pricing.

Lightsaber
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