Well, considering their fleet procurement strategy, I won't write off the possibility of seeing the MAX somewhere in the LH group. They seem to not mind operating almost every Airbus and Boeing type. They ordered LEAP A320s even though they had PW already. They ordered 787s when they already had A350s. And well before that, A380 and the 748.

Ronaldo747 wrote:

I think this is an order rather for Eurowings(+Brussels) and maybe SunExpress, also Condor (?) than LH itself. But it would be nice to see some Boeing NB in LH Colors though. But it will never happen.

AFAIK the Eurowings fleet is cluttered with very old A32X frames (ex LH D-AIP* series), old A320 ex-Germanwings with IAE engines, A320s and B738 ex Air Berlin. Sometime they need to provide a standardized fleet.

The D-AIP* series are CFM56-5 powered and are just as good as their newest CEO's from a standardization and efficiency standpoint.

lightsaber wrote:

This forces Pratt to offer better parts and support terms.

In the end, Pratt will have to deliver engines.

gatibosgru wrote:

If LH does indeed order the MAX, you have to believe the terms must favor LH heavily. It'll be a huge PR boost for Boeing and the MAX right now.

Agree. LH gets to see if Boeing offers terms too good to refuse for the PR. And even if they don’t they can at least try to use the Boeing offer to get better Airbus terms. Even if it doesn’t completely work it’s worth taking this approach.

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Or maybe the real competition here is the A22X. Seems way too tempting for Airbus not to offer a sweet deal on it or a A22X/A32X combo.

Maybe. I can also see Lufthansa going for the Bobby MAX too.

A rare creature from the Pacific Northwest, with a technical name 737-7MAX.

Enough silliness...however I can see Lufthansa Group replacing a fleet of elderly A319s at Eurowings with some Dash 7 MAX. Again they can support the aircraft easily and tend to get their full 25 years out of each frame so don't discount the MAX being the winner against Lufthansa's requirement lists. This deal is wide open IMO and nobody's to lose.

ctrabs0114 wrote:

787X30 wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

... but LH seems to be committed to AB for both NBs and WBs.

Not too many carriers in the 500+ airplanes' league seem to "commit to" one singular manufacturer only.

I don't disagree with that assessment, but LH Group has no 737s among any of their brands. That's why I made the observation.

That's not totally true: Eurowings is currently operating 7(?) 738s (ex-AB aircraft)

Seven is correct, however those are wet-leased aircraft of TUI Germany.

Design-wise, some LH flavour though.

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Looking at the link, he has kind words for Boeing. Actually, color me surprised. At the end of the day, manufacturers want (need) healthy competition.

“We have not lost our trust in Boeing” following two fatal 737 MAX crashes and the grounding earlier this month of the worldwide fleet of that aircraft, Spohr said in a meeting with reporters.

“They’ve built wonderful aircraft over the decades, and I am sure they will fix the current issue,” Spohr said of Boeing.

“Between Boeing and the FAA, I think this country will not rest until you have gone to the ground of what really happened there and is there something to improve.”

And Spohr is correct in what he says. I have been an Airbus fan because they came from behind and are Boeing's only meaningful competitor. However, Boeing has built marvelous airplanes over many decades now. The MAX is not going to wither and die. The problems will be found and fixed.

Going to be a lot of open slots for the MAX that need to be filled with Jet Airways going bankrupt soon and Lion Air and Garuda canceling their orders.

Kilopond wrote:

Lufthansa would be plain stupid to downgrade to the MAX for one simple reason: containerised luggage. Their operations heavily depend on flexibility. For instance, passengers missed their connection, bags have to be unloaded. Then the pax still make it at the very last minute and bags have to be re-loaded again. Now this process takes some three minutes, which would be absolutely impossible with the outdated MAX.

So, you’re saying it takes three minutes to remove a container, fish out the specific passenger’s bags, reload said container, then remove the same container again, put the passenger’s bags back in, and put the container back on board?

I don't appreciate the timing of this announcement. 2 weeks ago the MAX entered a grounding after hundreds of people died, and LH is already trying to monetise this.
One man's last breath is another man's bread?

It's in bad taste, shows that LH management has no class.

Ronaldo747 wrote:

Andy33 wrote:

Ronaldo747 wrote:

I think this is an order rather for Eurowings(+Brussels) and maybe SunExpress, also Condor (?) than LH itself.

Why would Lufthansa be ordering planes for Condor, which has been part of the Thomas Cook group since 2004? Unless you think Lufthansa is about to buy back the shares it sold to Thomas Cook?

Indeed I think they will buy back Condor.

Yea, sure lol.

LH has been working on streamlining all the NB aircraft of all LH airlines to A320 family with the same seat layout, same seats, same lavs etc. The original idea was that they can rotate the aircraft between the airlines by only painting the horizontal stab (which explains the odd eurowhite liveries of all LH airlines). So I really wonder if they had cancelled that idea in favor of a multi OEM Fleet.

Interesting times ahead...

ctrabs0114 wrote:

I don't disagree with that assessment, but LH Group has no 737s among any of their brands. That's why I made the observation.

Once upon a time, LH had no 777 among any of their brands. And then they did.

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Haha. Why would they order MAX. That is a laugh. NMA I can see...

Why oh why would Lufthansa order the MAX? I mean, didn't they recently ditch their 737 fleet a couple of years ago in favor of an all-A32X fleet?

Or else they are pining for something...else?

pabloeing wrote:

Awesome news minutes ago ¡¡¡
Lh plans to buy more than 100 frames :
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-lufth ... KKCN1R72A2

I simply cannot believe everyone is falling for this cheap trick.

Dear Lufthansa
Our beloved 737MAX is in a real hole (two holes actually, one is in Ethiopia, …)
We desperately need some fake news to distract everybody from what is currently happening.

If we offer you a stonking good deal on any aircraft you want, with no penalty clauses or deposits required, will you please make an announcement to the effect that...
a) at some point in the future, maybe next year
b) you will order a large number of aircraft - 100 seems like a nice number
c) you will either order Airbus or Boeing

You don't have to commit to anything at all, not one cent; just make sure that you mention that you haven't excluded the MAX, so that people get the idea in their heads that the program isn't completely dead.

Yours sincerely.
Boeing

Boeing gets positive publicity

Lufthansa gets publicity simply because it's so weird

And the news media makes money from idiots like us to clicking on their pages.

Really?

They brought Boeing into this just to get a steeper discount for the NEO.

If Lufthansa is willing to announce a 100-plane MAX order right after it gets the okay to fly again, I could imagine Boeing given an absolutely spectacular, Ryanair-level deal.

I could see LH doing what AA did and get a good rate from both. This may well end up being a split order.

We need to remember that LH CEO has told that LH group is going to order more aircraft when airlines go bust or cancel their order in order to get sweet deal. Boeing at the moment has bad reputation, we all know that is just temporary but they will 100% give Lufthansa sweet deal, since Garuda is canceling MAX order, JET is most probably going bust and Lion is extensively taking about cancellations. LH is flying everything and I would 100% agree that they will order 737 with option to change it to NMA. At the end it doesn’t matter which type of narrow body LH is flying, because in reality they are flying literally everything. (They might consolidate Norwegian so 737 might not became that unusual).


If we generally look at nearly every airline group is flying different types of the aircraft. Exemptions are smaller ULCC’s, Indigo Partners, Spirit and Southwest.

If LH actually ordered this terribly designed plane I would be shocked. More business for U2 I guess

YYZLGA wrote:

If Lufthansa is willing to announce a 100-plane MAX order right after it gets the okay to fly again, I could imagine Boeing given an absolutely spectacular, Ryanair-level deal.

Probably O’Leary is going to jealous. I personally think Luda NEO deal is already done, they are just waiting Paris Air Show in order to boost show orders. O’Leary would probably order more 737 since it’s “showtime” when it comes ordering MAX but who knows? Norwegian etc.

1989worstyear wrote:

Ronaldo747 wrote:

I think this is an order rather for Eurowings(+Brussels) and maybe SunExpress, also Condor (?) than LH itself. But it would be nice to see some Boeing NB in LH Colors though. But it will never happen.

AFAIK the Eurowings fleet is cluttered with very old A32X frames (ex LH D-AIP* series), old A320 ex-Germanwings with IAE engines, A320s and B738 ex Air Berlin. Sometime they need to provide a standardized fleet.

The D-AIP* series are CFM56-5 powered and are just as good as their newest CEO's from a standardization and efficiency standpoint.

They are nowhere near as good as the new ones. They are powered by CFM 56-5A engines (D-AIP*, D-AIQ* and 319: D-AIL*) and all of them are very different to the newer CFM 56-5B.

Avionics and stuff also vary from fleet to fleet and differences are huge enough in the current fleet.

Not many of these old ones left with germanwings though and most/all of them will be replaced by used, ex Air Berlin and Laudamotion aircraft soon. So no cluttered fleet at Eurowings either. Eurowings never had these old ones themselves.

texl1649 wrote:

Joe Sutter designed the 737 for LH, for goodness sakes, it was launched on Feb 1 1965 and LH managed to become the launch customer by the 19th. They tend to operate a fleet of every imaginable aircraft.

Trivia tidbit I had to look up to confirm my recollection: LH convinced them to initially stretch the -100 to seat...100 people, and the concern as to deep stalls with tail engine options is what led to the under-wing twin planform so...prevalent today.

"From its own 727 development work, and from lessons being learned elsewhere, Boeing knew that T-tail designs were prone to deep, sometimes unrecoverable stalls. “Deep stall was a consideration. I went to my office and took out a three-view drawing and cut the engines out and started putting them in different locations. I felt we could put the [engine] barrel under the wing and get the turbine out behind the rear spar,” says Sutter."

I imagine Sutton would have little patience with the MCAS system grafted onto his baby jetliner in latter days.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-204505/

Interesting article there



Another issue that wasn’t mentioned with the very early 737’s was a problem with the thrust reverser design


The initial models had the same type as the
727 but it was discovered that actuation
after landing was actually starting to lift the main gear off the ground


Obviously not a good feature so a redesign was undertaken for the -100 and -200 series which ended up with the familiar and effective , canted buckets

Ronaldo747 wrote:

Indeed I think they will buy back Condor.

Because ____?

GalebG4 wrote:

... I personally think Luda NEO deal is already done, they are just waiting Paris Air Show in order to boost show orders. ...

Decision due 2020, as per Reuters.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

pabloeing wrote:

Awesome news minutes ago ¡¡¡
Lh plans to buy more than 100 frames :
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-lufth ... KKCN1R72A2

I simply cannot believe everyone is falling for this cheap trick.

Dear Lufthansa
Our beloved 737MAX is in a real hole (two holes actually, one is in Ethiopia, …)
We desperately need some fake news to distract everybody from what is currently happening.

If we offer you a stonking good deal on any aircraft you want, with no penalty clauses or deposits required, will you please make an announcement to the effect that...
a) at some point in the future, maybe next year
b) you will order a large number of aircraft - 100 seems like a nice number
c) you will either order Airbus or Boeing

You don't have to commit to anything at all, not one cent; just make sure that you mention that you haven't excluded the MAX, so that people get the idea in their heads that the program isn't completely dead.

Yours sincerely.
Boeing

Boeing gets positive publicity

Lufthansa gets publicity simply because it's so weird

And the news media makes money from idiots like us to clicking on their pages.

Really?

And just why exactly would LH do that? If the 737 is as bad as you say it is then LH wouldn't risk their image by being anywhere near it. Or just maybe there are more level heads at Boeing and LH who know what they are doing and not the a.net drama club.

My fingers are crossed for superior Airbus product. If anything, PW is the one that should be worried due to its issues with GTF. I suspect it will be A320Neo combined with CFM Leap engines.

Channex757 wrote:

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Or maybe the real competition here is the A22X. Seems way too tempting for Airbus not to offer a sweet deal on it or a A22X/A32X combo.

Maybe. I can also see Lufthansa going for the Bobby MAX too.

A rare creature from the Pacific Northwest, with a technical name 737-7MAX.

Enough silliness...however I can see Lufthansa Group replacing a fleet of elderly A319s at Eurowings with some Dash 7 MAX. Again they can support the aircraft easily and tend to get their full 25 years out of each frame so don't discount the MAX being the winner against Lufthansa's requirement lists. This deal is wide open IMO and nobody's to lose.

The EW A319 will be replaced by A320/737-8s. EW flies them not because the size is perfect, but because the frames were available.

Apart from that why should he rule out the MAX. He says "LH still trusts Boeing" which is important considering the 777X and recent 787 order. But in the end I think they will top off with A320s or A220s. (CRJ replacement)

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Haha. Why would they order MAX. That is a laugh. NMA I can see...

Once the MCAS/certification issues are sorted --and they will eventually be sorted-- they'll order it if the price is right.

In fact this would be a singularly opportune moment for B to bounce back with the MAX: make LH a monetary proposition they can't refuse, and they'll bite. And announce to the world that one of the world's premier airlines has full confidence in the MAX by ordering 100 of the frames.

In fact this could be the start of the salvation of the MAX's media image. If I were B, I would make them a new, 2000's FR-type commercial proposition. B needs this order more than anything else right now.


Faro

The AC order for the MAX change my mind about a airline all Airbus or Boeing.....everything can happen.....

I don't see any B737Max coming to LH-G.
As I don't see any B787... oh wait, they bought some in fact.

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Could this be a favour to Boeing to bring back some confidence after all this bad PR?

That was my thought for a moment as well. But why would LH of all companies do that?

Boeing would give them a helluva good price for the PR.

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Could this be a favour to Boeing to bring back some confidence after all this bad PR?

That was my thought for a moment as well. But why would LH of all companies do that?

You do understand the history of Boeing and Lufthansa? It dates from the beginning of both companies, before WW1 and WW2...

We're talking about one of the most long-lasting relationships in history of aviation, with Lufthansa Technik being one of largest if not the largest MRO operators and avionics hardware/software developers. In fact, check percentages to see how much % of world aviation relies on Lufthansa's software... about 100% (flight maps, btw ).

Let me quote James F. Albaugh, former CEO of BCA - "Every plane we've ever built has Lufthansa in it."

Lufthansa will continue to buy Boeing planes, just probably MAX 9 and MAX 10, as I have severe doubts for the MAX 7 and MAX 8 now. The software "fix" is one thing, but from what I am hearing CAA's around the world will not be satisfied with that, they will probably require same stringent airline standards and multiple sensors. The era of "2 sensor system and if one sensor freaks out it takes control from the pilots and kills everyone onboard" is now over, since aviation has a tendency of making rock solid rules for every accident that had fatalities.

In fact, not just LH but any airline in need of an appreciable number of narrowbody jets would be insane not to consider a deep-discounted purchase of MAX's at the moment.

The only non-commercial assumption that they need to adopt is that B will one day resolve the current MAX issues. I for one think that that is an easy bet to make. By value, B today has a half-a-trillion dollar MAX orderbook to honour. They will do everything humanly possible to resolve the MAX issues.


Faro

RalXWB wrote:

Lufthansa Group has 78 x A321, 18 x A320NEO, 211 x A320 and 116 x A319. They currently have about 100 NEO orders already. Airbus will just offer the A32X/A220 combo and that´s it. LH ordering 737 will only happen in Boeing La-La-Land.

I would not say that. Operational data from SunExpress in comparison to the A320CEOs of EW at least contains some points in favour of the 737, but also points against it. In the end LH is pragmatic, if the deal is good, they will consider the MAX, even if only to keep Airbus honest. From the operational side I think the A320 is more likely to prevail - when you consider the new single aisle strategy for the group and the intention to move frames seamlessly between group airlines.

Just taking a quick look at the group fleet, they have around 130 320series planes that are nearing 20 years or more of age, so should be in replacement soon. 103 320ceo/320neo/321neo are on order (wiki numbers for all they are worth), which could account for replacement of 55 320s, 31 321s and some growth (maybe some 319s as well, but not counting that for simplicity). So that leaves 27 320series for replacement. Adding the 35 CR9 and 13 190/195 to that, there are 75 to be replaced (E-Jets were not mentioned in the article, but I take it they are all going to Air Dolomiti. Although not all of them were announced, it wouldn't make sense for LH Cityline to keep a subfleet of 2 or 3.)
That leaves roughly 25 for something else, maybe growth along the group or may even for a potential Condor acquisition (which I believe is likely).

I do agree that this might include an order for smaller variants, MAX7 certainly would be interesting although I guess the 220 would be the better choice. The larger ones I don't really see as the step from 90 seats on the CR9 to 180 on the MAX8/320 would just be too big. My take would be a split of MAX7/220 for Cityline and MAX9/10 for Condor/SunExpress.

MrBrightSide wrote:

... Let me quote James F. Albaugh, former CEO of BCA - "Every plane we've ever built has Lufthansa in it." ...

Not so sure of the 377 though...

Sunexpress makes their own orders: https://www.boeing.com/commercial/custo ... -800s.page

I'd say 737's for LH is improbable but not impossible. If Boeing gives them a sweetheart deal then it will be very hard for LH to say no and for Airbus to match the price. And if they are allowed to convert to NMA then it will be even harder to refuse.

GCT64 wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

787X30 wrote:

Not too many carriers in the 500+ airplanes' league seem to "commit to" one singular manufacturer only.

I don't disagree with that assessment, but LH Group has no 737s among any of their brands. That's why I made the observation.

That's not totally true: Eurowings is currently operating 7(?) 738s (ex-AB aircraft)

Also don´t forget Sun Express which is also owned by LH.

I am still wondering why they would replace the A319s and CRJ with NEOs or the Max. A220 always seemed to be the most logical choice.
But anyway they plan to order a "three digit number" so a split order makes sense since no manufacturer could deliver so many aircraft as quickly as needed. Doubt that the Max is the right plane for LH itself but Eurowings which has some of the oldest A320 in the group and is expanding fast could use them.

columba wrote:

GCT64 wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

I don't disagree with that assessment, but LH Group has no 737s among any of their brands. That's why I made the observation.

That's not totally true: Eurowings is currently operating 7(?) 738s (ex-AB aircraft)

Also don´t forget Sun Express which is also owned by LH.

I thought Sun Express was a JV with LH not having 100% control?

TTailedTiger wrote:

I'd say 737's for LH is improbable but not impossible. If Boeing gives them a sweetheart deal then it will be very hard for LH to say no and for Airbus to match the price. And if they are allowed to convert to NMA then it will be even harder to refuse.

Given the MAX's media image at the moment, B would be suicidal not to make them a super-sweetened sweetheart deal. The MAX absolutely needs this order to repare its public image.

And why on earth would it "be very hard for LH to say no"? LH are a serious, professionally-run corporation, if they included the MAX in their request for proposals, it's not so they can see just how much they can resist ordering it...


Faro

I don't understand the talk of a MAX order now being a big vote of confidence in the MAX. The post title says that LH is aiming at placing an NB order next year. The preferred option would appear to be A320NEO but LH would be remiss not to talk to Boeing, wouldn't they? Apart from ensuring Airbus offered a good deal, iBoeing might make an offer LH could not refuse just to get the order.

GCT64 wrote:

columba wrote:

GCT64 wrote:

That's not totally true: Eurowings is currently operating 7(?) 738s (ex-AB aircraft)

Also don´t forget Sun Express which is also owned by LH.

I thought Sun Express was a JV with LH not having 100% control?

You are right I should have written partly owned......

GCT64 wrote:

I thought Sun Express was a JV with LH not having 100% control?

JV; page "201".

I'd be VERY surprised if LH ordered the MAX, but they will want to keep Airbus honest and try and get a bit of price competition

It's not like airlines ordering the 787, A350 and 777 as those 3 operate in slightly different sectors of the market, and hence have their own "sweet spots".

Lufthansa's management, like any airline's management, will assess all the options. This will include the MAX when looking at aircraft in that size category.

That being said, I think the NEO will have the upper hand, purely from an operational point of view. Commonality with the existing fleet (across the board, with A320s at SN, OS, LX, EW) is a big bonus operationally. However, if Boeing can offer MAXs for a good enough price, then that advantage is offset. Airbus and Boeing both know this, and so will price accordingly.

MrBrightSide wrote:

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Could this be a favour to Boeing to bring back some confidence after all this bad PR?

That was my thought for a moment as well. But why would LH of all companies do that?

You do understand the history of Boeing and Lufthansa? It dates from the beginning of both companies, before WW1 and WW2...

Extremely interesting seeing that The Boeing Company was founded on July 15, 1916 and Lufhansa and Deutsche Luft Hansa (predecessor of the current Deutsche Lufthansa) was founded on January 6, 1926. Hard for the 2 companies to have history before WW1 (which started July 28, 1914)...
Furthermore, it is commonly accepted that the oldest airline still operating is KLM, founded October 7, 1919, after WW1 ended (November 11, 1918).

Back to Boeing and Lufthansa (or Luft Hansa), it seems their relationship started in 1935 with the Boeing 247.