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Thunderbolt500
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9-11 shutdown

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:45 pm

On 9-11 -01 when the airplanes where shutdown , was Canada or Mexico up and running? How long did this last?
 
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longhauler
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:57 pm

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
On 9-11 -01 when the airplanes where shutdown , was Canada or Mexico up and running? How long did this last?


It eventually included Canada.

I recall working that morning and was over the Praries on a YYZ-YXE flight. We heard the ATC broadcast ... "SCATANA, SCATANA, SCATANA. This is the United States Department of Defense. We now have full control of Canadian airspace, all aircraft must land immediately". I turned to the F/O and asked ... "Did I really just hear that???".

I say "eventually" as Canada and Mexico were allowed to accommodate diversions as US airspace was closed very quickly. After all diversions were completed, Canadian airspace closed as well.
Last edited by longhauler on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EstherLouise
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:59 pm

About a week. Gander and Halifax runways served as parking lots for widebody aircraft and the citizens of those towns took displaced passengers into their own homes temporarily.
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longhauler
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:02 pm

September 11, 2001 was a Tuesday. I don't know for how long the SCATANA was in effect, or for how long airspace was actually closed. But flying was starting again on the Thursday.

We diverted to YBR. On the Friday, we were cleared to operate again. We ferried the aircraft YBR-DFW, then operated a scheduled flight from DFW to YYZ.
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ghYHZ
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:08 pm

EstherLouise wrote:
About a week. Gander and Halifax runways served as parking lots for widebody aircraft and the citizens of those towns took displaced passengers into their own homes temporarily.


Check out the Broadway Musical "Come From Away".......or Google Gander 9-11
 
phlwok
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:07 am

You may find the book “The Day the World Came to Town: 9/11 in Gander, Newfoundland” by Jim DeFede an interesting read as well for how the locals helped out.
 
Bradin
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:52 am

Found this on A.net:

viewtopic.php?t=727291
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:01 am

longhauler wrote:
I recall working that morning and was over the Praries on a YYZ-YXE flight. We heard the ATC broadcast ... "SCATANA, SCATANA, SCATANA. This is the United States Department of Defense. We now have full control of Canadian airspace, all aircraft must land immediately". I turned to the F/O and asked ... "Did I really just hear that???".

Interesting...and you were in Canadian airspace? I presume because the order came from NORAD. I didn't realize that Canada had essentially the same plan as the US prior to 9/11 (both use ESCAT now, of course), but given their NORAD cooperation it certainly makes sense that they've had similar plans for years. Definitely something I never hope to see in my career.
 
catiii
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:27 am

longhauler wrote:
September 11, 2001 was a Tuesday. I don't know for how long the SCATANA was in effect, or for how long airspace was actually closed. But flying was starting again on the Thursday.

We diverted to YBR. On the Friday, we were cleared to operate again. We ferried the aircraft YBR-DFW, then operated a scheduled flight from DFW to YYZ.


Interesting. Where were you inbound from and where were you headed?

I had just upgraded to the MD-88 as an F/O from a new hire L10 S/O. My wife and I had nonrevved to FCO to get away for a few days. We were on the way back to ATL and diverted to BDA.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:53 am

What about flights in the caribbean or between mexico and say south america
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:02 am

As a Canadian, I was very proud of Operation Yellow Ribbon. Lufthansa named an aircraft Gander/Halifax as a tribute to the kindness those cities showed strandard passengers. The Canadian response was truly impressive and despite all the horror of that day, the kindness that was shown to those who were stranded far from home is the sort of thing that go down in infamy. Come from Away is a wonderful musical and it demonstrates the very best of this country and it’s people.
My other car is an A320-200
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:55 am

How did GA aircraft on CTAFs get escorted down? Was the announcement made on all frequencies?

I can't imagine there was enough fuel for all the jets parked at Gander to get back to their destination, assuming they had to burn down to MLW before landing.
 
Woodreau
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:56 am

atcsundevil wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I recall working that morning and was over the Praries on a YYZ-YXE flight. We heard the ATC broadcast ... "SCATANA, SCATANA, SCATANA. This is the United States Department of Defense. We now have full control of Canadian airspace, all aircraft must land immediately". I turned to the F/O and asked ... "Did I really just hear that???".

Interesting...and you were in Canadian airspace? I presume because the order came from NORAD. I didn't realize that Canada had essentially the same plan as the US prior to 9/11 (both use ESCAT now, of course), but given their NORAD cooperation it certainly makes sense that they've had similar plans for years. Definitely something I never hope to see in my career.


NORAD is a combined US - Canadian command and is responsible for air defense of the Alaska NORAD region (ANR), Canadian NORAD region (CANR), and CONUS NORAD region (CONR).

It’s not that the plans are similar, the plans are the same for Canada and the US because it is the same military command.

The basic plan for securing Canadian and US airspace was already in place, and only needed updating to issue the initiating directive, warning order, OPORDER, and execute order, which eventually became known as Noble Eagle after 9/11. Military forces came from the US and Canada and from NATO because of Article 5 and President Bush requested NATO assets for the operation.

CarlosSi wrote:
How did GA aircraft on CTAFs get escorted down? Was the announcement made on all frequencies?


As far as getting general aviation aircraft down, at the time each of the 6 NORAD sectors (in the US it was the Western air defense sector, southeast and northeast air defense sectors and Alaska air defense sector, Canada has its east and west sector) were responsible for securing its airspace. If air traffic control couldn’t get the planes down, then I imagine each non compliant target of interest was intercepted and escorted down until everything was down.

Radar pickets (E-3s, cruisers and destroyers) were established to supplement ATC radar coverage, or to provide coverage where there wasn’t any civilian ATC radar coverage.
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ghYHZ
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:34 am

CarlosSi wrote:
How did GA aircraft on CTAFs get escorted down? Was the announcement made on all frequencies?

I can't imagine there was enough fuel for all the jets parked at Gander to get back to their destination, assuming they had to burn down to MLW before landing.

Gander has always been known a TATL diversion/refueling stop so I imagine it has sufficient supplies.

(And a side note: Aeroflot maintained their own fuel supply at Gander back in the cold war era for their own aircraft and those of Interflug (East Germany) CSA-Czechoslovak and Cubana transiting Gander between the Eastern Bloc and Cuba.)
 
dochawk2
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:48 am

Woodreau wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I recall working that morning and was over the Praries on a YYZ-YXE flight. We heard the ATC broadcast ... "SCATANA, SCATANA, SCATANA. This is the United States Department of Defense. We now have full control of Canadian airspace, all aircraft must land immediately". I turned to the F/O and asked ... "Did I really just hear that???".

Interesting...and you were in Canadian airspace? I presume because the order came from NORAD. I didn't realize that Canada had essentially the same plan as the US prior to 9/11 (both use ESCAT now, of course), but given their NORAD cooperation it certainly makes sense that they've had similar plans for years. Definitely something I never hope to see in my career.


NORAD is a combined US - Canadian command and is responsible for air defense of the Alaska NORAD region (ANR), Canadian NORAD region (CANR), and CONUS NORAD region (CONR).

It’s not that the plans are similar, the plans are the same for Canada and the US because it is the same military command.

The basic plan for securing Canadian and US airspace was already in place, and only needed updating to issue the initiating directive, warning order, OPORDER, and execute order, which eventually became known as Noble Eagle after 9/11. Military forces came from the US and Canada and from NATO because of Article 5 and President Bush requested NATO assets for the operation.

CarlosSi wrote:
How did GA aircraft on CTAFs get escorted down? Was the announcement made on all frequencies?


As far as getting general aviation aircraft down, at the time each of the 6 NORAD sectors (in the US it was the Western air defense sector, southeast and northeast air defense sectors and Alaska air defense sector, Canada has its east and west sector) were responsible for securing its airspace. If air traffic control couldn’t get the planes down, then I imagine each non compliant target of interest was intercepted and escorted down until everything was down.

Radar pickets (E-3s, cruisers and destroyers) were established to supplement ATC radar coverage, or to provide coverage where there wasn’t any civilian ATC radar coverage.


Thanks for this comment. This is one of those moments on A-net a lot of details come together for me. Things I ponder, but never ask or research.
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atcsundevil
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:19 am

Woodreau wrote:
NORAD is a combined US - Canadian command and is responsible for air defense of the Alaska NORAD region (ANR), Canadian NORAD region (CANR), and CONUS NORAD region (CONR).

It’s not that the plans are similar, the plans are the same for Canada and the US because it is the same military command.

The basic plan for securing Canadian and US airspace was already in place, and only needed updating to issue the initiating directive, warning order, OPORDER, and execute order, which eventually became known as Noble Eagle after 9/11. Military forces came from the US and Canada and from NATO because of Article 5 and President Bush requested NATO assets for the operation.

I'm quite aware of NORAD given my career field. My question was related to the US DOD making the announcement if he was in Canadian airspace, which is what interested me.
 
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longhauler
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:09 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I'm quite aware of NORAD given my career field. My question was related to the US DOD making the announcement if he was in Canadian airspace, which is what interested me.

I understand what you are getting at now. We were in Canadian airspace for our entire flight and the announcement was made on Winnipeg Centre frequency. I honestly don't know if the US DOD actually made the transmission, or if it was made on their behalf by Winnipeg Centre.

After the stunned silence on the frequency, it was Winnipeg through, that started asking the intentions of all in their area.
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atcsundevil
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:19 pm

longhauler wrote:
I understand what you are getting at now. We were in Canadian airspace for our entire flight and the announcement was made on Winnipeg Centre frequency. I honestly don't know if the US DOD actually made the transmission, or if it was made on their behalf by Winnipeg Centre.

After the stunned silence on the frequency, it was Winnipeg through, that started asking the intentions of all in their area.

That must have been extremely surreal. If you weren't aware of what was going on, you'd certainly be thinking the worst.
 
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longhauler
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:39 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
That must have been extremely surreal. If you weren't aware of what was going on, you'd certainly be thinking the worst.

We left YYZ at 0830, about the time the second tower was attacked. We had absolutely no idea what was going on.

We bordered on, but never went into MSP airspace. However, both YYZ centre and YWG centre mentioned to other aircraft that MSP airspace was closed. We thought it odd, as weather could not have been a factor as it was a crystal clear day, but didn't give it much thought. We were not ACARS equipped and when over YQT, we called Flight Dispatch for weather and gave a PX. He cryptically said, "I hope your cockpit door is locked". Still, no idea.

Two hours after leaving YYZ, we heard the SCATANA. Recalling from our Private Pilot Licence days, such a declaration is the result of a nuclear attack. (At least that is what my instructor said). And were bewildered. During the diversion, I told the passengers that I didn't know what was going on, we were landing right away and absolutely nothing is wrong with the aircraft, nothing to worry about.

Then ... the passengers picked up the seat phones, called their families in YXE about the delay, found out what was happening and told the Flight Attendants! The In-Charge F/A came up to the cockpit bawling ... and told us.

It was all the five us could do to keep it together, but all we had to do was get the aircraft safely on the ground and show a brave face to the passengers. That we did. It was when I learned that being a Captain had very little to do with actually flying the aircraft.

Yes ... it was surreal.
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atcsundevil
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:10 pm

longhauler wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
That must have been extremely surreal. If you weren't aware of what was going on, you'd certainly be thinking the worst.

We left YYZ at 0830, about the time the second tower was attacked. We had absolutely no idea what was going on.

We bordered on, but never went into MSP airspace. However, both YYZ centre and YWG centre mentioned to other aircraft that MSP airspace was closed. We thought it odd, as weather could not have been a factor as it was a crystal clear day, but didn't give it much thought. We were not ACARS equipped and when over YQT, we called Flight Dispatch for weather and gave a PX. He cryptically said, "I hope your cockpit door is locked". Still, no idea.

Two hours after leaving YYZ, we heard the SCATANA. Recalling from our Private Pilot Licence days, such a declaration is the result of a nuclear attack. (At least that is what my instructor said). And were bewildered. During the diversion, I told the passengers that I didn't know what was going on, we were landing right away and absolutely nothing is wrong with the aircraft, nothing to worry about.

Then ... the passengers picked up the seat phones, called their families in YXE about the delay, found out what was happening and told the Flight Attendants! The In-Charge F/A came up to the cockpit bawling ... and told us.

It was all the five us could do to keep it together, but all we had to do was get the aircraft safely on the ground and show a brave face to the passengers. That we did. It was when I learned that being a Captain had very little to do with actually flying the aircraft.

Yes ... it was surreal.

Wow. Thanks for sharing. I've heard plenty of stories from controllers (mostly from N90 and ZDC), but not many from a pilot's perspective. Definitely something worth reflecting on from time to time. Flying and controlling has become something so routine that it's easy to forget how quickly things can change.
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:27 pm

Thanks longhauler for sharing your experience. It is fascinating and gives a very different perspective.
 
dr1980
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:31 am

Thanks Longhauler, always appreciate you sharing your experiences here.
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checksixx
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:08 am

I remember watching the alert jets take off at Langley...
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:31 am

I remember a military jet that came screaming over my residence, which was not in any flight paths of the DFW airport 2 miles away.

I watched a show on Con-Air on the Quest Network the other day, and they said that Con-Air flights were allowed to continue to their destinations, and were not required to land at the nearest airport.

And we know that the Saudis were allowed to take off from their "private" airports in the US.
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sandbender
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:58 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
I watched a show on Con-Air on the Quest Network the other day, and they said that Con-Air flights were allowed to continue to their destinations, and were not required to land at the nearest airport.


JPATS is a Federal agency, not a private/commercial service.

DIRECTFLT wrote:
And we know that the Saudis were allowed to take off from their "private" airports in the US.


What flights are you referring to? From all I've seen that's a roundly debunked idea.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/flights-of-fancy/
 
ozark1
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:59 am

This is really fascinating. I always wondered just how quickly an aircraft midflight was required to land. Just as an example , say a PHX to ABQ flight was over Gallup NM. Were they required to descend immediately and land at an airport with limited facilities or could they have continued the short distance to ABQ? I realize this thread was a question regarding Canada/Mexico but was just curious.
 
rj777
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:29 am

Does anybody have a link to the pics of the planes parked on the runways?
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:55 am

sandbender wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
I watched a show on Con-Air on the Quest Network the other day, and they said that Con-Air flights were allowed to continue to their destinations, and were not required to land at the nearest airport.


JPATS is a Federal agency, not a private/commercial service.

DIRECTFLT wrote:
And we know that the Saudis were allowed to take off from their "private" airports in the US.


What flights are you referring to? From all I've seen that's a roundly debunked idea.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/flights-of-fancy/


Well Thanks !!

The Saudis leaving from private airports during the shutdown was a favorite flight of fancy for me. :yawn:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
N649DL
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:18 am

My Dad was on the ground at EWR in F on a CO flight to DTW on a 737 and watched the towers burn real-time from the first class galley door. They eventually pulled the plane back to the terminal and closed down the airport.

What's more interesting to me is how there were other planes involved after the grounding finding box cutters and literature in seat pockets (presumably to strike other targets.) I believe these were out of EWR and JFK on UA for the most part, but can't find anything nowadays about it.

Want to know something even more surreal? I grew up in Northern NJ on 9/11 and the loud speaker in my 9th grade biology class was broken. The Principal made an announcement about the attacks but none of us in our class heard it. Next period was gym, and it's just a big auditorium at the beginning of the year (first week of school, it was study hall until they can hand out lockers) so you can't hear anything.

I remember going to the bathroom and just seeing people running up and down the hallway crying. I grew up in a town about 50 minutes outside of NYC, so lots of parental commuters (my Dad included) and initially thought it was a school shooting. It was, indeed considering we never saw anything like 9/11 at the time and I just kept thinking to myself that it's another Columbine, CO school shooting or something. This was probably 10:15am. I got back to the gym and some kid told me about 2 planes hitting the WTC, but didn't know what airlines or flight numbers. We both were convinced they were small private jets on accident.

Next period was lunch and it was even louder. I had a TV transmitter on my CD player but the playback was shoddy and I could barely hear anything. I thought I heard it was TWA (thinking flight 800 and they flew to the Middle East from JFK even after AA bought them out) but it obviously wasn't. It wasn't until the 6th period, probably past noon at this point that my teacher put on the radio and I finally found out what was going on.

Oh yeah one more thing, remember when the media was blasting POTUS about Palestinians (mainly) cheering in the NYC area about seeing the WTC fall down? Yeah, that actually happened. My Mom worked in downtown Newark at the time and she said it was absolutely horrifying to watch.

I'll never forget that day as quite a few parents in my high school died in the WTC. There was even someone I ran track with who's Grandmother was supposed to be on UAL 93 but cancelled it for scheduling reasons.
 
n92r03
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:16 pm

I had the privilege of hearing Col. Mark Tillman (Air Force One Pilot on 9/11) speak a couple years ago. Similar to what we've all seen on TV documentaries, but he went into some more details about about flying Air Force One that day. One was that after leaving SRQ they had info (later deemed false) that some foreign national pilots had been training and military aircraft were missing, apparently they were quite concerned as they flew west and then the "Texas Twang" in the voice of one of the good guy escort pilots came on the radio and all were relieved. He tells the story much better than I can type. He also talked about flying back to Washington and the escort planes had a hard time keeping up with the 747 as they had to refuel, etc. After listening to him for about an hour, I was ready to bust through a wall with my bare hands. He doesn't have much on social media but there are a few clips on youtube. I highly recommend a view/listen.
 
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AC_B777
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:41 pm

rj777 wrote:
Does anybody have a link to the pics of the planes parked on the runways?


Here is a link to my FB page with pics of the 27 a/c that diverted to YYT on 9/11. All of these pictures were taken by me on Sept 12.
I was on my days off on 9/11 and was watching the news of the attacks as they unfolded as well as glued to a.net. I was called into work to help park the a/c as we were expecting up to 65 diversions, but eventually only 27 landed here.
The Air Canada A319 was the only commercial flight at YYT and was preparing for departure to YYZ when the airspace was closed thus cancelling the flight.
https://www.facebook.com/phil.earle/med ... 622&type=3
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amishfarmer
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:23 pm

I was still in the USAF and was on a trip as a flight Mech. my TV came on in my room before I woke and the first thing I heard was an aircraft had hit the World trade towers. I'm thinking a small GA because airliners don't fly near big ole towers. Then I saw the second one hit and my jaw dropped. Being in the military that day was very interesting to say the least. I had that jet ready to go in no time. Saw the Pentagon still smoking the next day.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: 9-11 shutdown

Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:53 pm

rj777 wrote:
Does anybody have a link to the pics of the planes parked on the runways?


Here you have a very famous one sourced from A.net. All those widebodies cramed at YHZ

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