xwb777
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Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:59 pm

The Pakistani government has decided to end the open skies policy which the country was following. According to Minister for information and Broadcasting, Fawad Chaudhry, the following has been announced regarding to the open skies policy and other Civil Aviation matters:

International airline agreements will be reviewed again.
Profitable routes to be returned to the National carrier
Air Service Agreements (ASA) to be reviewed again
Taxes to be reduced on flights to northern regions (Gilgit, Swat, Skardu).
Passenger Aircraft age reduced from 18 to 12 years
Funding will be provided for women Pilot studies

Once a suitable link to the news is found, i will add it. The above have been found from the Minister's twitter account @fawadchaudhry
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:23 am

Under any previous government, this would probably be a bad thing, but I have enough confidence in IK to trust that he's doing this for a good reason. If this is what's needed to breathe fresh air into Pakistani aviation and PIA, he's probably right. The first step to healing a wound is to stop the bleeding and this sounds a lot like what he's doing. It's just that no one had the guts to stand up to the ME3 flooding Pakistan before, especially since the Gulf countries are among Pakistan's biggest allies. If anyone has what it takes to reform Pakistani aviation, it's IK. I am very curious where TK falls into all of this, as they have been one of the biggest beneficiaries of Pakistan's open skies policy alongside the ME3, but Turkey has been an unconditional all weather friend of Pakistan contrary to the neutral Gulf states, so TK may actually come out the strongest from all of this when everything is said and done as I doubt anything will be done that would adversely affect TK capacity while the same may not be necessarily true for the ME3.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:04 am

Open skies is better for customers. The goal should not be to support a company, but customers.

Also, Pakistan gets rid of airplanes after 18 or 12 years? That sounds very uneconomical.
 
royalswazi
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:09 am

Who on earth would dare to travel to Pakistan? It’s not exactly Spain...
 
YYZORD
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:40 am

I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:48 am

kitplane01 wrote:
Open skies is better for customers. The goal should not be to support a company, but customers.

Also, Pakistan gets rid of airplanes after 18 or 12 years? That sounds very uneconomical.

Singapore Airlines did it for quite a long time.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:01 am

When will their Airspace open?
 
Blerg
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:05 am

strfyr51 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Open skies is better for customers. The goal should not be to support a company, but customers.

Also, Pakistan gets rid of airplanes after 18 or 12 years? That sounds very uneconomical.

Singapore Airlines did it for quite a long time.


Yes but Singapore is one of the richest countries and SIA is one of the better run businesses in the world. They could afford to retire planes quite early since they had the means to pay for new ones. PIA is not really in such a position and I doubt they have that many high-yielding passengers to cover higher leasing rates of new planes.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:28 am

YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


Probably something to do with the security situation, bombs going off regularly, gun attacks, etc. ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:36 am

Aircraft age restrictions are hardly confidence-inspiring when from countries with spotty maintenance histories. The Lion Air crash was partly because of willful disregard of necessary repairs and the aircraft was months old.
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:41 am

Pakistan is reopened as of today according to the Pakistani media outlets, yes that includes to India Flights as well.
 
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unrave
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:53 am

LH658 wrote:
Pakistan is reopened as of today according to the Pakistani media outlets, yes that includes to India Flights as well.

That is a very good development.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
ushermittwoch
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:59 am

seabosdca wrote:
Aircraft age restrictions are hardly confidence-inspiring when from countries with spotty maintenance histories. The Lion Air crash was partly because of willful disregard of necessary repairs and the aircraft was months old.


Where is the official report stating this?
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:59 am

royalswazi wrote:
Who on earth would dare to travel to Pakistan? It’s not exactly Spain...


Why not? People who love aviation, obviously love to travel as well, it a educational experience too.
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:04 am

YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.



TK, EY, EK, QR, TG, CA, China Southern, Malindo Air, Sri Lankan Airlines, and now BA starting June 2nd will be another addition to Pakistan foreign carriers, and hopefully more to resume, will love to see LH return.

Dhaka doesn't even have BA.... Air China Airlines, Thai Airways, China Southern, BA, are some big names as well.

Pakistan just about the safety concern as well, probably has to do with also the fees of operating to Pakistan (crew cost, hotel, transportation, probably security protocol, taxes, and other fees).

Which a few days back Pakistan government announced of lowering it airport fees to carriers.
 
behramjee
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:32 am

YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


Your post above is 100% factually incorrect as the number of flights to Pakistan operated by the Middle East carriers and on an overall basis by all international airlines is way higher than Bangladesh.

I’ll put things in perspective for you on the GCC sector :

Khi -DXB market demand alone is 3 times bigger than whole of Bangladesh-DXB

Khi-jed or even lhe-jed market demand is double than that of Bangladesh-JED

Yes to the Far East especially sin KUL bkk, demand from DAC is way way higher but again when u add up the number of international flights in total, the sum of PAK is much greater than that of BAN.

Pak Open Skies policy newslink https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/0 ... on-policy/
 
anshabhi
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:35 am

unrave wrote:
LH658 wrote:
Pakistan is reopened as of today according to the Pakistani media outlets, yes that includes to India Flights as well.

That is a very good development.


Great if true !!

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/NOTAMS/NotamView.aspx

The NOTAM is still there right now
 
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unrave
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:36 am

anshabhi wrote:

Yeah, there has be no confirmation of this on media
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:36 am

behramjee wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


Your post above is 100% factually incorrect as the number of flights to Pakistan operated by the Middle East carriers and on an overall basis by all international airlines is way higher than Bangladesh.

I’ll put things in perspective for you on the GCC sector :

Khi -DXB market demand alone is 3 times bigger than whole of Bangladesh-DXB

Khi-jed or even lhe-jed market demand is double than that of Bangladesh-JED

Yes to the Far East especially sin KUL bkk, demand from DAC is way way higher but again when u add up the number of international flights in total, the sum of PAK is much greater than that of BAN.

Pak Open Skies policy newslink https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/0 ... on-policy/


It obvious DAC will have more flights to Southeast Asia, basic geography....
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:37 am

unrave wrote:
anshabhi wrote:

Yeah, there has be no confirmation of this on media


https://www.dawn.com/news/1472142?fbcli ... EsLeSuwhxI here you go mate.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:42 am

The airspace will be fully reopened tomorrow for Int'l and domestic routes, transit flights will remain suspended.
 
avier
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:44 am

LH658 wrote:
unrave wrote:
anshabhi wrote:

Yeah, there has be no confirmation of this on media


https://www.dawn.com/news/1472142?fbcli ... EsLeSuwhxI here you go mate.


The article clearly states "..transit flights will stay suspended.".
All they have done is reopened all the shut airports in Pak. Overflying still remains shut for most carriers apart from their few favorite countries who fund them.
 
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unrave
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:46 am

LH658 wrote:

"However, flights for Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and New Delhi will not operate due to security reasons."
No difference as far as India is concerned
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:54 am

Definitely excited to see the gov finally turning its attention to the reform agenda in the aviation sector. It was a matter of time :D

The road to recovery for PIA will be a long one but I have full confidence in the gov's ability to make good on it. It has been a long while since the last time any concrete steps were taken to improve the situation so steps like this make me hopeful that they are serious about fixing PIA once and for all.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:58 am

unrave wrote:
LH658 wrote:

"However, flights for Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and New Delhi will not operate due to security reasons."
No difference as far as India is concerned


That PIA operates ............. Maybe there a threat from India, who knows.... Back to the original topic.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:48 am

The interesting thing about open skies in Pakistan is that I think only KHI actually had it. So technically this probably doesn't even affect LHE or ISB since they never had it to begin with. That said, the ME3 are much bigger in KHI than in LHE and ISB, although since KHI is the biggest city population and economy wise in Pakistan as well as the main hub of PIA, ending open skies even if only for KHI would still have a substantial impact on the overall situation.
 
behramjee
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:59 pm

Open skies Pakistan has fully with only Saudi Arabia and that will not be revoked due to political reasons.

With UAE, open skies exist only for Karachi airport.
 
musman9853
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:49 pm

Aesma wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


Probably something to do with the security situation, bombs going off regularly, gun attacks, etc. ?



that was certainly the case for a while. But since Operation "Zarb-e-Azb" and the subsequent Operation "Radd-ul-Fasaad" the threat of terrorists attacks have gone down a massive amount, to the point the murder rate in pakistan is only slightly higher than that if the US. (5 vs 6.5 per 100k). theres still a pretty large amount of street crime, but i terms of terroirst attacks its been fairly quiet.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
AkwaabaAir
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:28 pm

royalswazi wrote:
Who on earth would dare to travel to Pakistan? It’s not exactly Spain...



Aside from the incredible cultural experiences and *gasp* awesome tourist areas/sites........family. My wife, who is of Pakistani descent, and I (i am as white, American, and Westernized as they come) visited Pakistan in January of this year. We have 5 years visas and cannot wait to return.
While I understand the science and mechanics of how it works, I cannot fully comprehend the beauty of it as I watch a plane gracefully leap heavenward.
 
maint123
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:37 pm

royalswazi wrote:
Who on earth would dare to travel to Pakistan? It’s not exactly Spain...

Extreme adventure tourism. Though you are right that their are no real tourist spots in Pakistan, except for some mountain peaks. But the killing of a few mountaineers a few years back put a dampener on that.
I believe the few tourists their get armed escort. That could be a new experience.
 
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Coal
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:31 pm

I’m going to Pakistan for a wedding in two weeks. Then going on a road trip from Lahore to Islamabad and back. Super excited!

But now very concerned as we’re flying via BKK and it seems TG 345 has been cancelled for the last few weeks.
Nxt Flts: KE SIN-ICN-ATL | DL ATL-FLL | AA MIA-ATL | KE ATL-ICN-SIN
 
k89
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:50 pm

Pakistan has sadly been eaten up by the ME3. EK, EY, and QR steal the market from PIA, and it's too late for them to recover from it. Transit flights I believe are still closed so airlines still need to avoid Pakistan if it's not there destination.

The only thing Pakistan needs to do now is open airspace to all flights (including transit flights) and both Pakistan and India need to at least prevent incidents like this from happening again.
 
lalib
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:00 pm

k89 wrote:
Pakistan has sadly been eaten up by the ME3. EK, EY, and QR steal the market from PIA, and it's too late for them to recover from it..


True to the above and why beat a dead horse? PIA should continue with their regular international routes like MAN, LHR, YYZ, JFK etc. There should be more focus on making the airline profitable domestically along with development for tourism to different parts of the country targeting the local population, not necessarily for foreigners.

I am speaking as a Pakistani, we are more inclined to go abroad than explore our own country.
 
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OA940
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:22 pm

I'm confused. Is the aircraft age thing referring to planes within Pakistan or to all planes that enter its airspace? Either way it's a stupid idea to limit planes to 12 years. Either way. Austrian flies 28 year old 767s and they don't crash at all. Delta has a lot of 25+ year old jets too, along with a ton of other airlines. And replacing aircraft every 12 years is uneconomical for most airlines in the world, much more so PIA or whoever else in Pakistan.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:42 pm

OA940 wrote:
I'm confused. Is the aircraft age thing referring to planes within Pakistan or to all planes that enter its airspace? Either way it's a stupid idea to limit planes to 12 years. Either way. Austrian flies 28 year old 767s and they don't crash at all. Delta has a lot of 25+ year old jets too, along with a ton of other airlines. And replacing aircraft every 12 years is uneconomical for most airlines in the world, much more so PIA or whoever else in Pakistan.

It is a decree/law/proposal from the Pakistan government. What do you expect? That it be rational? This shows some of the real problems, I suppose: that they don't fathom what the real problems are, or they deflect from them on purpose.
Nothing of this will save PIA.
 
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OA940
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:43 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I'm confused. Is the aircraft age thing referring to planes within Pakistan or to all planes that enter its airspace? Either way it's a stupid idea to limit planes to 12 years. Either way. Austrian flies 28 year old 767s and they don't crash at all. Delta has a lot of 25+ year old jets too, along with a ton of other airlines. And replacing aircraft every 12 years is uneconomical for most airlines in the world, much more so PIA or whoever else in Pakistan.

It is a decree/law/proposal from the Pakistan government. What do you expect? That it be rational? This shows some of the real problems, I suppose: that they don't fathom what the real problems are, or they deflect from them on purpose.
Nothing of this will save PIA.


I wonder how this will affect the other Pakistani airlines. Serene's 738 fleet is more than 12 years old, right? Will they just have to replace everything? Will PIA have to get rid of like 80% of its fleet?
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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Coal
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:18 pm

LH658 wrote:
unrave wrote:
LH658 wrote:

"However, flights for Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and New Delhi will not operate due to security reasons."
No difference as far as India is concerned


That PIA operates ............. Maybe there a threat from India, who knows.... Back to the original topic.


No, it is for all airlines. TG emailed me today that they had cancelled the BKK-LHE flight in mid April.

Tickets from SE Asia to Pakistan on EK, QR, EY, WY now priced through the roof.
Nxt Flts: KE SIN-ICN-ATL | DL ATL-FLL | AA MIA-ATL | KE ATL-ICN-SIN
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:41 pm

Coal wrote:
LH658 wrote:
unrave wrote:
"However, flights for Bangkok, Kuala Lumpur and New Delhi will not operate due to security reasons."
No difference as far as India is concerned


That PIA operates ............. Maybe there a threat from India, who knows.... Back to the original topic.


No, it is for all airlines. TG emailed me today that they had cancelled the BKK-LHE flight in mid April.

Tickets from SE Asia to Pakistan on EK, QR, EY, WY now priced through the roof.


obviously......but Thai KHI flight is operating. Neighbor to the right isn't cooperating either so it's not feasible to fly to LHE which is Thai top performing Pakistan route. Even ISB will be canceled.
 
leftcoast8
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:13 pm

YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


40+ years ago, the Soviet Union and China prohibited most foreign carriers from using their airspace. Unfortunately the shortest route from Europe to Asia/Oceania requires a trans-Siberian or China overflight. In addition this was before more efficient engine technology, it wouldn't be until the 747-400 that Europe-Asia flights could be done in one go.

There were a handful of ways carriers go around the Soviet/Chinese restrictions on overflights. One was flying via Anchorage, the other was multi-stop routes via the Mediterranean, Gulf, India/Pakistan and SE Asia. During those days, many carriers served Pakistan. BA, Qantas, KLM, Sabena, Cathay Pacific and others used Karachi as a fuel stop. JAL used to fly NRT-BKK-KHI-JED-ATH, NRT-BKK-KHI-KWI-ATH and NRT-BKK-KHI-AUH-KWI-JED-CAI-ATH at different times using a DC-8, later a DC-10. All this info I picked up from previous A.net posts as well as departedflights.com.

But Pakistan has been going through a seemlingly endless cycle of political instability since the early 90s, that has scared away every major non-Chinese carrier from KHI.

1. First there was the invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, JAL pulled out of Pakistan completely since the flight (I think JL471/472) had a stopover in Kuwait. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. Then there was the 1992-96 violence in Karachi/Sindh Province between the govt/military under Nawaz Sharif (and accelerated by his successor, Benazir Bhutto) and the minority Muhajir population (who were the dominant ethnic group in Sindh).
3. Then Musharraf seized power in the 1999 military coup
4. Only two years later, 9/11 and the invasion of neighbouring Afghanistan put an end to major carriers serving Pakistan for several years. The ME3 and TK ended up filling this void.
5. BA and Lufthansa among other major carriers returned to Pakistan in the mid-2000s, but the Islamabad JW Marriott truck bombing in 2008 put a stop to that. (I think that Musharraf's declaration of martial law 10 months prior also factored into the decision.)
6. The KHI airport bombing in 2014 led to the last "western" carrier, Cathay Pacific (CX702/703 HKG-BKK-KHI), pulling out of Pakistan. Besides PIA, the only flights to Pakistan have been by Chinese carriers, ME3 and TK for nearly five years now.

It's a pain getting from Vancouver to Pakistan now since the ME3 + TK are dominating, and none of them serve YVR. To India or Dubai there are plenty of one-stop options through Europe, but to get to Karachi or Lahore you have to drive down to Seattle to catch the daily EK flight, or fly out to via YYZ/SFO/LAX on EK/EY/TK (the latter two require going through U.S. Customs). If you're headed to Islamabad then you can connect through PEK via CA, but Air China isn't the best airline w.r.t passenger experience and I've heard connecting in PEK is terrible. (I've heard better things about CAN/Guangzhou for connections.) CA945/946 is notorious for delays.

Meaningless aside: Before the ME3 + TK, carriers used to have stopovers in KWI/SHJ/JED/DAM/MCT, as well as in Bangladesh, southern India and Sri Lanka (Kolkata/Mumbai/Chennai/Colombo). European carriers have scaled back their service to these destinations as well, but thankfully CX/NH/MU/CZ have a strong network there (and BA/LH fly to MAA/HYD/BLR), which makes it relatively straightforward to get from Vancouver to such destinations. I'd like to read a history of KHI being used as a stopover on Europe-Asia flights.
 
LH658
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Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:19 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


40+ years ago, the Soviet Union and China prohibited most foreign carriers from using their airspace. Unfortunately the shortest route from Europe to Asia/Oceania requires a trans-Siberian or China overflight. In addition this was before more efficient engine technology, it wouldn't be until the 747-400 that Europe-Asia flights could be done in one go.

There were a handful of ways carriers go around the Soviet/Chinese restrictions on overflights. One was flying via Anchorage, the other was multi-stop routes via the Mediterranean, Gulf, India/Pakistan and SE Asia. During those days, many carriers served Pakistan. BA, Qantas, KLM, Sabena, Cathay Pacific and others used Karachi as a fuel stop. JAL used to fly NRT-BKK-KHI-JED-ATH, NRT-BKK-KHI-KWI-ATH and NRT-BKK-KHI-AUH-KWI-JED-CAI-ATH at different times using a DC-8, later a DC-10. All this info I picked up from previous A.net posts as well as departedflights.com.

But Pakistan has been going through a seemlingly endless cycle of political instability since the early 90s, that has scared away every major non-Chinese carrier from KHI.

1. First there was the invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, JAL pulled out of Pakistan completely since the flight (I think JL471/472) had a stopover in Kuwait. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. Then there was the 1992-96 violence in Karachi/Sindh Province between the govt/military under Nawaz Sharif (and accelerated by his successor, Benazir Bhutto) and the minority Muhajir population (who were the dominant ethnic group in Sindh).
3. Then Musharraf seized power in the 1999 military coup
4. Only two years later, 9/11 and the invasion of neighbouring Afghanistan put an end to major carriers serving Pakistan for several years. The ME3 and TK ended up filling this void.
5. BA and Lufthansa among other major carriers returned to Pakistan in the mid-2000s, but the Islamabad JW Marriott truck bombing in 2008 put a stop to that. (I think that Musharraf's declaration of martial law 10 months prior also factored into the decision.)
6. The KHI airport bombing in 2014 led to the last "western" carrier, Cathay Pacific (CX702/703 HKG-BKK-KHI), pulling out of Pakistan. Besides PIA, the only flights to Pakistan have been by Chinese carriers, ME3 and TK for nearly five years now.

It's a pain getting from Vancouver to Pakistan now since the ME3 + TK are dominating, and none of them serve YVR. To India or Dubai there are plenty of one-stop options through Europe, but to get to Karachi or Lahore you have to drive down to Seattle to catch the daily EK flight, or fly out to via YYZ/SFO/LAX on EK/EY/TK (the latter two require going through U.S. Customs). If you're headed to Islamabad then you can connect through PEK via CA, but Air China isn't the best airline w.r.t passenger experience and I've heard connecting in PEK is terrible. (I've heard better things about CAN/Guangzhou for connections.) CA945/946 is notorious for delays.

Meaningless aside: Before the ME3 + TK, carriers used to have stopovers in KWI/SHJ/JED/DAM/MCT, as well as in Bangladesh, southern India and Sri Lanka (Kolkata/Mumbai/Chennai/Colombo). European carriers have scaled back their service to these destinations as well, but thankfully CX/NH/MU/CZ have a strong network there (and BA/LH fly to MAA/HYD/BLR), which makes it relatively straightforward to get from Vancouver to such destinations. I'd like to read a history of KHI being used as a stopover on Europe-Asia flights.


Thai been operating to Pakistan for long long time now. TK came in later in the game.... Only 2 Chinese airlines fly to Pakistan, only China Southern, and Air China. Not sure when Hainan, China Eastern, and other Chinese carriers will join to Pakistan. Though from YVR your one stop option to ISB or KHI is Air China. Or fly CA to PEK then take PIA to LHE or Fly YVR to CAN on China Southern then China Southern to LHE, thats your one stop options from YVR to PK............
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:08 am

LH658 wrote:
Thai been operating to Pakistan for long long time now. TK came in later in the game.... Only 2 Chinese airlines fly to Pakistan, only China Southern, and Air China. Not sure when Hainan, China Eastern, and other Chinese carriers will join to Pakistan. Though from YVR your one stop option to ISB or KHI is Air China. Or fly CA to PEK then take PIA to LHE or Fly YVR to CAN on China Southern then China Southern to LHE, thats your one stop options from YVR to PK............


Too bad we can't edit posts otherwise I would have put that in. Yes I forgot that TG flies to KHI, thank you for spotting that. I think PIA has a Lahore-Bangkok service as well.

It seems CA945/946 is a semi open-jaw routing (CA945 has a tag-on from Islamabad to Karachi, but CA946 flies directly to PEK) and was expanded from 4 weekly 333 to daily 333 in January. CA945 gets into KHI at 10:35 pm PKT, and departs at 12:05 am, spending only two hours on the tarmac in KHI. I wonder if the threat of terrorism in Karachi is the reason why the turnaround time is so fast. And why doesn't it serve ISB on the return trip?

Unfortunately, CA945 isn't timed well with CA992 or AC29; it leaves at 3:30 pm while the flights from Vancouver get in at around 4:00; oh joy.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 468
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:37 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
40+ years ago, the Soviet Union and China prohibited most foreign carriers from using their airspace. Unfortunately the shortest route from Europe to Asia/Oceania requires a trans-Siberian or China overflight. In addition this was before more efficient engine technology, it wouldn't be until the 747-400 that Europe-Asia flights could be done in one go.

There were a handful of ways carriers go around the Soviet/Chinese restrictions on overflights. One was flying via Anchorage, the other was multi-stop routes via the Mediterranean, Gulf, India/Pakistan and SE Asia. During those days, many carriers served Pakistan. BA, Qantas, KLM, Sabena, Cathay Pacific and others used Karachi as a fuel stop. JAL used to fly NRT-BKK-KHI-JED-ATH, NRT-BKK-KHI-KWI-ATH and NRT-BKK-KHI-AUH-KWI-JED-CAI-ATH at different times using a DC-8, later a DC-10. All this info I picked up from previous A.net posts as well as departedflights.com.

But Pakistan has been going through a seemlingly endless cycle of political instability since the early 90s, that has scared away every major non-Chinese carrier from KHI.

1. First there was the invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, JAL pulled out of Pakistan completely since the flight (I think JL471/472) had a stopover in Kuwait. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. Then there was the 1992-96 violence in Karachi/Sindh Province between the govt/military under Nawaz Sharif (and accelerated by his successor, Benazir Bhutto) and the minority Muhajir population (who were the dominant ethnic group in Sindh).
3. Then Musharraf seized power in the 1999 military coup
4. Only two years later, 9/11 and the invasion of neighbouring Afghanistan put an end to major carriers serving Pakistan for several years. The ME3 and TK ended up filling this void.
5. BA and Lufthansa among other major carriers returned to Pakistan in the mid-2000s, but the Islamabad JW Marriott truck bombing in 2008 put a stop to that. (I think that Musharraf's declaration of martial law 10 months prior also factored into the decision.)
6. The KHI airport bombing in 2014 led to the last "western" carrier, Cathay Pacific (CX702/703 HKG-BKK-KHI), pulling out of Pakistan. Besides PIA, the only flights to Pakistan have been by Chinese carriers, ME3 and TK for nearly five years now.

It's a pain getting from Vancouver to Pakistan now since the ME3 + TK are dominating, and none of them serve YVR. To India or Dubai there are plenty of one-stop options through Europe, but to get to Karachi or Lahore you have to drive down to Seattle to catch the daily EK flight, or fly out to via YYZ/SFO/LAX on EK/EY/TK (the latter two require going through U.S. Customs). If you're headed to Islamabad then you can connect through PEK via CA, but Air China isn't the best airline w.r.t passenger experience and I've heard connecting in PEK is terrible. (I've heard better things about CAN/Guangzhou for connections.) CA945/946 is notorious for delays.

Meaningless aside: Before the ME3 + TK, carriers used to have stopovers in KWI/SHJ/JED/DAM/MCT, as well as in Bangladesh, southern India and Sri Lanka (Kolkata/Mumbai/Chennai/Colombo). European carriers have scaled back their service to these destinations as well, but thankfully CX/NH/MU/CZ have a strong network there (and BA/LH fly to MAA/HYD/BLR), which makes it relatively straightforward to get from Vancouver to such destinations. I'd like to read a history of KHI being used as a stopover on Europe-Asia flights.


Great post, wish more were like this
 
leftcoast8
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:31 am

I almost forgot: CZ to LHE is out of Urumqi (URC), not Guangzhou. And I'd rather grin and bear Air China than subject myself to PIA
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:28 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
I almost forgot: CZ to LHE is out of Urumqi (URC), not Guangzhou. And I'd rather grin and bear Air China than subject myself to PIA


Sir your wrong, CZ serves CAN - Lahore - CAN, as well Urumqi. Thai serves all 3 major Pakistani cities for very long time now. I am not sure why Air China schedule like that to Pakistan, though most airlines are leaving Pakistan around midnight or early morning. I guess Air China drops off/picks up pax from ISB, then Karachi does the same, and then turns around to PEK. so you can fly CA or CZ one stop from YVR to Pakistan, if it a long layover like 15 hrs take the time to explore the CAN or PEK. When flying in and out of PK i usually take a 15 hour layover to roam around the Middle East, and get good sleep, and shower, vs cramming the whole journey with short layover arriving so exhausted.
 
YYZORD
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:02 am

If I lived in Vancouver, I'd just drive down to Seattle and take the daily EK flight. SEA is so nearby that there are buses going from YVR to SEA every few hours. Many Vancouverites just drive down to SEA sometimes and catch flights there and for flying EK especially as that flight is also to carry pax to YVR too since partnership with AS. I'm posting this from a Canadian passport holder perspective as Canadians go to the US a lot as they don't need any type of visa to visit the US and also they transit through the US a lot as more flight options as ME3 and TK can only fly a few times a week to Canada. My post is not considering those visiting Vancouver from Pakistan as you would need visas for both countries. Its better and more convenient to fly out of SEA than connecting at YYZ cause you need to change terminals and do security again at YYZ along with YVR as WS being the Canadian partner of EK is in Terminal 3 and EK is in Terminal 1 which is annoying. It's similar to ORD when changing from Terminal 1/2/3 to Terminal 5. With flying out of SEA, all your doing is crossing the border and then driving or sometimes fly to SEA with AS to fly EK out of there with doing only security once at either YVR if flying to SEA or SEA alone if driving.

leftcoast8 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I'm curious as to what is the reason for the limited foreign airlines that serve Pakistan. Heck Bangladesh has more foreign flights from DAC than LHE, KHI, and ISB altogether like SQ, MH, and CX all serve DAC which are missing from any major airport in Pakistan like LHE or ISB. Maybe add SQ and CX at least, not asking for NH, JL, or KE but those would be nice for connections to Canadian and American destinations.


40+ years ago, the Soviet Union and China prohibited most foreign carriers from using their airspace. Unfortunately the shortest route from Europe to Asia/Oceania requires a trans-Siberian or China overflight. In addition this was before more efficient engine technology, it wouldn't be until the 747-400 that Europe-Asia flights could be done in one go.

There were a handful of ways carriers go around the Soviet/Chinese restrictions on overflights. One was flying via Anchorage, the other was multi-stop routes via the Mediterranean, Gulf, India/Pakistan and SE Asia. During those days, many carriers served Pakistan. BA, Qantas, KLM, Sabena, Cathay Pacific and others used Karachi as a fuel stop. JAL used to fly NRT-BKK-KHI-JED-ATH, NRT-BKK-KHI-KWI-ATH and NRT-BKK-KHI-AUH-KWI-JED-CAI-ATH at different times using a DC-8, later a DC-10. All this info I picked up from previous A.net posts as well as departedflights.com.

But Pakistan has been going through a seemlingly endless cycle of political instability since the early 90s, that has scared away every major non-Chinese carrier from KHI.

1. First there was the invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, JAL pulled out of Pakistan completely since the flight (I think JL471/472) had a stopover in Kuwait. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. Then there was the 1992-96 violence in Karachi/Sindh Province between the govt/military under Nawaz Sharif (and accelerated by his successor, Benazir Bhutto) and the minority Muhajir population (who were the dominant ethnic group in Sindh).
3. Then Musharraf seized power in the 1999 military coup
4. Only two years later, 9/11 and the invasion of neighbouring Afghanistan put an end to major carriers serving Pakistan for several years. The ME3 and TK ended up filling this void.
5. BA and Lufthansa among other major carriers returned to Pakistan in the mid-2000s, but the Islamabad JW Marriott truck bombing in 2008 put a stop to that. (I think that Musharraf's declaration of martial law 10 months prior also factored into the decision.)
6. The KHI airport bombing in 2014 led to the last "western" carrier, Cathay Pacific (CX702/703 HKG-BKK-KHI), pulling out of Pakistan. Besides PIA, the only flights to Pakistan have been by Chinese carriers, ME3 and TK for nearly five years now.

It's a pain getting from Vancouver to Pakistan now since the ME3 + TK are dominating, and none of them serve YVR. To India or Dubai there are plenty of one-stop options through Europe, but to get to Karachi or Lahore you have to drive down to Seattle to catch the daily EK flight, or fly out to via YYZ/SFO/LAX on EK/EY/TK (the latter two require going through U.S. Customs). If you're headed to Islamabad then you can connect through PEK via CA, but Air China isn't the best airline w.r.t passenger experience and I've heard connecting in PEK is terrible. (I've heard better things about CAN/Guangzhou for connections.) CA945/946 is notorious for delays.

Meaningless aside: Before the ME3 + TK, carriers used to have stopovers in KWI/SHJ/JED/DAM/MCT, as well as in Bangladesh, southern India and Sri Lanka (Kolkata/Mumbai/Chennai/Colombo). European carriers have scaled back their service to these destinations as well, but thankfully CX/NH/MU/CZ have a strong network there (and BA/LH fly to MAA/HYD/BLR), which makes it relatively straightforward to get from Vancouver to such destinations. I'd like to read a history of KHI being used as a stopover on Europe-Asia flights.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2100
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:06 am

leftcoast8 wrote:

40+ years ago, the Soviet Union and China prohibited most foreign carriers from using their airspace. Unfortunately the shortest route from Europe to Asia/Oceania requires a trans-Siberian or China overflight. In addition this was before more efficient engine technology, it wouldn't be until the 747-400 that Europe-Asia flights could be done in one go.

There were a handful of ways carriers go around the Soviet/Chinese restrictions on overflights. One was flying via Anchorage, the other was multi-stop routes via the Mediterranean, Gulf, India/Pakistan and SE Asia. During those days, many carriers served Pakistan. BA, Qantas, KLM, Sabena, Cathay Pacific and others used Karachi as a fuel stop. JAL used to fly NRT-BKK-KHI-JED-ATH, NRT-BKK-KHI-KWI-ATH and NRT-BKK-KHI-AUH-KWI-JED-CAI-ATH at different times using a DC-8, later a DC-10. All this info I picked up from previous A.net posts as well as departedflights.com.

But Pakistan has been going through a seemlingly endless cycle of political instability since the early 90s, that has scared away every major non-Chinese carrier from KHI.

1. First there was the invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, JAL pulled out of Pakistan completely since the flight (I think JL471/472) had a stopover in Kuwait. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. Then there was the 1992-96 violence in Karachi/Sindh Province between the govt/military under Nawaz Sharif (and accelerated by his successor, Benazir Bhutto) and the minority Muhajir population (who were the dominant ethnic group in Sindh).
3. Then Musharraf seized power in the 1999 military coup
4. Only two years later, 9/11 and the invasion of neighbouring Afghanistan put an end to major carriers serving Pakistan for several years. The ME3 and TK ended up filling this void.
5. BA and Lufthansa among other major carriers returned to Pakistan in the mid-2000s, but the Islamabad JW Marriott truck bombing in 2008 put a stop to that. (I think that Musharraf's declaration of martial law 10 months prior also factored into the decision.)
6. The KHI airport bombing in 2014 led to the last "western" carrier, Cathay Pacific (CX702/703 HKG-BKK-KHI), pulling out of Pakistan. Besides PIA, the only flights to Pakistan have been by Chinese carriers, ME3 and TK for nearly five years now.

It's a pain getting from Vancouver to Pakistan now since the ME3 + TK are dominating, and none of them serve YVR. To India or Dubai there are plenty of one-stop options through Europe, but to get to Karachi or Lahore you have to drive down to Seattle to catch the daily EK flight, or fly out to via YYZ/SFO/LAX on EK/EY/TK (the latter two require going through U.S. Customs). If you're headed to Islamabad then you can connect through PEK via CA, but Air China isn't the best airline w.r.t passenger experience and I've heard connecting in PEK is terrible. (I've heard better things about CAN/Guangzhou for connections.) CA945/946 is notorious for delays.

Meaningless aside: Before the ME3 + TK, carriers used to have stopovers in KWI/SHJ/JED/DAM/MCT, as well as in Bangladesh, southern India and Sri Lanka (Kolkata/Mumbai/Chennai/Colombo). European carriers have scaled back their service to these destinations as well, but thankfully CX/NH/MU/CZ have a strong network there (and BA/LH fly to MAA/HYD/BLR), which makes it relatively straightforward to get from Vancouver to such destinations. I'd like to read a history of KHI being used as a stopover on Europe-Asia flights.


Thanks for the information!
 
royalswazi
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:27 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:47 pm

I’ve experienced two technical stops in Karachi. The smell when they’ve opened the doors was bad enough.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:42 am

YYZORD wrote:
If I lived in Vancouver, I'd just drive down to Seattle and take the daily EK flight. Its better and more convenient to fly out of SEA than connecting at YYZ cause you need to change terminals and do security again at YYZ along with YVR as WS being the Canadian partner of EK is in Terminal 3 and EK is in Terminal 1 which is annoying.


So you'd rather take a 3 1/2 hour road trip, plus US Customs, from YVR to SEA, than take the two minute train that runs every 3 minutes between Terminals One and Three in YYZ???

WS may be EK's "Canadian Partner", but as AC and EK have an interline agreement, a lot of EK's connecting traffic at YYZ comes from AC. The connection at YYZ is easy, no baggage transfer in either direction and you stay inside the secure area when flying YVR-YYZ-DXB with no Customs.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
YYZORD
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:17 am

I mean its no different for people road tripping from Detroit to either YYZ or ORD which is longer than Vancouver to SEA. A lot of people drive to Seattle from Vancouver and fly out of there, very common. EY is in terminal 3 while AC is in Terminal 1 at YYZ which means you gotta change terminals and do security again as both terminals aren't connected from the inside. SEA on the other hand, US customs especially by road is not even a hassle, idk why people make that a factor if you have a Canadian passport and especially a NEXUS card.

longhauler wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
If I lived in Vancouver, I'd just drive down to Seattle and take the daily EK flight. Its better and more convenient to fly out of SEA than connecting at YYZ cause you need to change terminals and do security again at YYZ along with YVR as WS being the Canadian partner of EK is in Terminal 3 and EK is in Terminal 1 which is annoying.


So you'd rather take a 3 1/2 hour road trip, plus US Customs, from YVR to SEA, than take the two minute train that runs every 3 minutes between Terminals One and Three in YYZ???

WS may be EK's "Canadian Partner", but as AC and EK have an interline agreement, a lot of EK's connecting traffic at YYZ comes from AC. The connection at YYZ is easy, no baggage transfer in either direction and you stay inside the secure area when flying YVR-YYZ-DXB with no Customs.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Pakistan to end its 'open skies' policy

Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:42 am

longhauler wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
If I lived in Vancouver, I'd just drive down to Seattle and take the daily EK flight. Its better and more convenient to fly out of SEA than connecting at YYZ cause you need to change terminals and do security again at YYZ along with YVR as WS being the Canadian partner of EK is in Terminal 3 and EK is in Terminal 1 which is annoying.


So you'd rather take a 3 1/2 hour road trip, plus US Customs, from YVR to SEA, than take the two minute train that runs every 3 minutes between Terminals One and Three in YYZ???

WS may be EK's "Canadian Partner", but as AC and EK have an interline agreement, a lot of EK's connecting traffic at YYZ comes from AC. The connection at YYZ is easy, no baggage transfer in either direction and you stay inside the secure area when flying YVR-YYZ-DXB with no Customs.


Air Canada flies to DXB from YYZ, does Air Canada supply EK pax out of Dubai on Air India, and other carriers?

Also does AC supply pax on EK outside of DXB, such as to KHI, DAC, Colombo, and etc?

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