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lightsaber
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:10 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
All the usual excuses for corruption and corruption is what this is, the usual excuse that both take part. Swapping flights is OK, doing it for money is corruption, that is how corruption is defined. The problem is not the union, but the seniority system. Why has there to be a pecking order for trip bidding?

Agreed. That is why rotating systems are more fair. Is it EK who puts FAs into 7 pools with rotating priority? Month 1 first choice, month 2 2nd and so on (or is it increasing priority from lowest to highest).

If the income isn't declared, it is tax evasion. Bwaa ha ha.

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worldranger
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
All the usual excuses for corruption and corruption is what this is, the usual excuse that both take part. Swapping flights is OK, doing it for money is corruption, that is how corruption is defined. The problem is not the union, but the seniority system. Why has there to be a pecking order for trip bidding?

Agreed. That is why rotating systems are more fair. Is it EK who puts FAs into 7 pools with rotating priority? Month 1 first choice, month 2 2nd and so on (or is it increasing priority from lowest to highest).

If the income isn't declared, it is tax evasion. Bwaa ha ha.

Lightsaber


Yes EK stagger seniority - so for FAs every 7th month is top, then next month 2nd top etc as it winds down through the 7 months.

The pilots have a rolling five month seniority, so they see top almost five times in a 24m period.
 
twicearound
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:13 pm

ual763 wrote:
gen2stew wrote:
If a crew member has the seniority to hold a trip its theirs fair and square. It's none of anyone's business what they do with it. Most posters comments aren't of any merit since it's not their career. Go back to your cube and start another Doug Parker bashing thread or another e-shrine to DL


It is not “theirs”. It is still the company’s and the employee doesn’t get to sell it. If the employee has something pop up and needs to trade someone, then just ask for a trade. If the trip is that coveted, there will be more than enough people willing to trade with you.

It boggles my mind, the number of people on here willing to defend corruption in the name of “scheduling necessities” or “factors of life”.

If you’re willing to sell a trip for $200, believe me, they had no intention of ever flying it to begin with. It’s all a money making scheme and it needs to stop.


The ethics of selling aside. Technically once the trip is awarded to said flight attendant it is "theirs" and does belong to them. Example: flight attendant holds a 4 day international trip to wherever. Scheduling or the system accidentally removes the trip or makes an error on their line. The flight attendant is then entitled to full pay protection for the trip without flying it. Why? because in the eyes of the airline that trip belonged to that flight attendant.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:47 pm

gen2stew wrote:
If a crew member has the seniority to hold a trip its theirs fair and square. It's none of anyone's business what they do with it. Most posters comments aren't of any merit since it's not their career. Go back to your cube and start another Doug Parker bashing thread or another e-shrine to DL


You're awfully high and mighty for being glorified wait staff, aren't you?

You don't have to pop Coke tops for a living to be able to analyze this and comment on it.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:54 pm

It happens everywhere, major carriers, LCC, regional, it happens. It's part of the job, and it is what it is.
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smokeybandit
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:00 pm

I first thought this thread was going to be about some cougar brothel.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:04 pm

OSL777FLYER wrote:
I know that there is a bidding system, but I honestly would never have believed that such things as described here existed.

Yes, one can argue that both sides are "happy" yet, to pay a co-worker for for a certain flight is both a crappy way to treat your colleagues and taking advantages of your position within an airline. It is simply corruption.

Written warning should be given for first-time offenders, then if it happens again. Out the door you go.


I don’t like this corruption term.

Our swapping and proffering system is all done via the work IT systems and it ensures the flights are leagally crewed. The money is taken out of one persons pay and put in another’s by the company payroll system.

The rates of pay are defined in the manuals.

The company is happy because the flights are crewed, and the crew are happy as they can time off when they would otherwise be rostered to fly.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:06 pm

It’s part of the job, like it or not, and it’s not limited to flight attendants, as CSAs and even Res Agents can and do trade their shifts or pick up from others. At my carrier, there’s a hard cap where agents may only trade a maximum of 50% of their scheduled hours per month.

We also have a firm “no discussion of cash, terms, or any other incentives” in exchange for trades, as we once had someone who picked up trades religiously for cash on top of the hours and when getting a divorce, his wife nailed him in court for all the unreported income from cash trades he’d been getting. His co-workers were NOT pleased when he came to work with stacks of 1099s and affidavits for those who traded with him to fill out and sign. Those who violate the policy - that we know of - have their trades suspended and are issued progressive discipline.

Having said that, most of the trades are done via text messages or on private Facebook groups, so the company can’t see them. We only learn of them when a trade goes sideways and a disgruntled party narcs on the other.
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ual763
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:14 pm

zeke wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
I know that there is a bidding system, but I honestly would never have believed that such things as described here existed.

Yes, one can argue that both sides are "happy" yet, to pay a co-worker for for a certain flight is both a crappy way to treat your colleagues and taking advantages of your position within an airline. It is simply corruption.

Written warning should be given for first-time offenders, then if it happens again. Out the door you go.


I don’t like this corruption term.

Our swapping and proffering system is all done via the work IT systems and it ensures the flights are leagally crewed. The money is taken out of one persons pay and put in another’s by the company payroll system.

The rates of pay are defined in the manuals.

The company is happy because the flights are crewed, and the crew are happy as they can time off when they would otherwise be rostered to fly.


You’re describing how it should work. What these people are doing is the opposite. When the cash trades hands under the table, and in violation of all company policies (turning it into a pay-to-play situation), that signifies corruption in the ranks.

It shouldn’t cost anything to trade. It is essentially just a favor between employees. At least that is how it should be. For example, I bid a line I can hold, something important comes up and I need to trade, then by all means put it up on the trading portal. Someone will be more than happy to take the trip 99% of the time, no money incentive required. Especially if you are senior and hold a great line.

Where it becomes corrupt and fraudulent, is when a senior crewmember (like in this case), has no intention of ever working their bidded trips, and instead just puts all of them up for sale just to turn a quick buck. That is wrong and grounds for termination, and rightfully so.
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hrc773
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:31 pm

Most people here are missing the point. I think someone hit the nail on the head saying that these trips don't belong to crewmembers; they belong to the company. Having the seniority to hold desirable trips only gives you the option of working them and nothing else. To profit from something that doesn't belong to you, without permission is completely unethical, even if the company is not losing out on any money. I'm sure that if management catches up on this, they will have a very good case in canning crewmembers involved in this scheme.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:35 pm

It's been happening for years at every airline. Seniority is literally everything.

For example:
Brenda in DFW can work two HKGs a month to keep her health insurance. She can sell her other two HKGs that month to new hire. $200 is only about 4hrs worth of flying for a new hire. International also has a higher per diem. So it's really not a bad deal for them either. $400 in Brenda's pocket.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:50 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
It's been happening for years at every airline. Seniority is literally everything.

For example:
Brenda in DFW can work two HKGs a month to keep her health insurance. She can sell her other two HKGs that month to new hire. $200 is only about 4hrs worth of flying for a new hire. International also has a higher per diem. So it's really not a bad deal for them either. $400 in Brenda's pocket.


Yeah, a good deal for the two parties involved. Only screws over everyone else who plays by the rules.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:56 pm

hrc773 wrote:
Most people here are missing the point. I think someone hit the nail on the head saying that these trips don't belong to crewmembers; they belong to the company. Having the seniority to hold desirable trips only gives you the option of working them and nothing else.


I'd agree with you if the senior person holding the trip suddenly called out sick when they couldn't sell what they'd bid for; it shows they never had any intention of seeing that trip worked. But if they sell it to someone, it's crewed. If they don't and work it, it's crewed. And the trip gets paid at the applicable rate of pay per the contract anyway, so it costs the company nothing.

This is another example of non-airline people freaking out over how airlines work behind the scenes; remember how the media lost their collective minds when learning that airlines had - gasp! - dress codes for non-revs including buddy pass travelers?

Yeah, this is the same thing. It's fair, it doesn't hurt the company, and it's how the business has worked for decades. Don't like it? Great - don't work in the industry.
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737MAX7
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:57 pm

Why is this a ground breaking revelation? This has been going on for years. I’m not crew but I know on the ramp Southwest limits the percentage of shifts you can trade with another employee to attempt to control things like this.
 
ual763
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:04 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
hrc773 wrote:
Most people here are missing the point. I think someone hit the nail on the head saying that these trips don't belong to crewmembers; they belong to the company. Having the seniority to hold desirable trips only gives you the option of working them and nothing else.


I'd agree with you if the senior person holding the trip suddenly called out sick when they couldn't sell what they'd bid for; it shows they never had any intention of seeing that trip worked. But if they sell it to someone, it's crewed. If they don't and work it, it's crewed. And the trip gets paid at the applicable rate of pay per the contract anyway, so it costs the company nothing.

This is another example of non-airline people freaking out over how airlines work behind the scenes; remember how the media lost their collective minds when learning that airlines had - gasp! - dress codes for non-revs including buddy pass travelers?

Yeah, this is the same thing. It's fair, it doesn't hurt the company, and it's how the business has worked for decades. Don't like it? Great - don't work in the industry.


I normally agree with you p, but I don’t on this issue.

Selling your trip isn’t the only way it can be “crewed”. These are high demand trips. You don’t need to sell them to ensure they are crewed. Anyone with less seniority would be more than willing to jump on it. We’re not talking layovers in Des Moines. We’re talking layovers in Tahiti, Hawaii, etc. If you don’t want to work it, by all means offer it to someone else. But don’t put a price on it. It is a favor, not an under-the-table business. When was the last time you paid to perform a favor for someone else?
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kiowa
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:13 pm

The whole topic seems like an airline internal issue and not something that the public should or would care about.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:17 pm

This creates a corrupt system of haves and have-nots that supersedes the contracts. It also takes away all incentive for people to retire, why retire when you can just create your own business of bidding for senior trips and then selling them to other FAs?
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:25 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
why retire when you can just create your own business of bidding for senior trips and then selling them to other FAs?


Because you can’t always sell it, that’s why. You end up working a trip you had no intention of working when you bid it. And lest we forget there’s also recurrent compliance training that is required periodically, and you can’t opt-out of that. That’s why no one who wants to retire sticks around so they can keep bidding and selling lines; it doesn’t stop people from retiring as you imply.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:45 pm

ual763 wrote:
Selling your trip isn’t the only way it can be “crewed”. These are high demand trips. You don’t need to sell them to ensure they are crewed.


Put aside the pay issue for a moment; vacations are on a seniority bid as well. Is it unfair that someone with 20 years bids for two weeks around Christmas that a junior person can’t hold, but then decides to release it in October, after the junior person who wanted it already exhausted their vacation accrual?

No, it’s “fair” per the contract. The senior person bid it, and for whatever reason, later decided they didn’t want it and dropped it. The same is taking place her on trips, but sometimes really desirable trips find junior people who couldn’t have held it asking to have it and making an arrangement with the holder who drops it to them. And again, in many cases it’s the junior people who cause this - they’ve always wanted a CDG layover, so they pay someone so they can take over that trip. Also, employees on probationary periods defined by hours worked will sometimes pay to pick up shifts/trips to get through it faster.

Point being, this wouldn’t exist if there weren’t a “market” demand for it. If the junior people stopped picking up trades, the sellers wouldn’t have anything to sell. We see it all the time on the agent side; people wanting to pick up hours need lots of trades when OT isn’t being offered, but when OT is plentiful, people pay others to pick up the shifts they no longer want to work.

Market economics at work. Like it or not, it’s fair per the contract and just how it works. The confiscatory rates being asked for are the only issue, but again it works both ways; I’ve heard of agents asking for really high payback terms when picking up the shift of someone desperate to drop it.
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rbavfan
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:49 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
It is evil though. You’re screwing people with the time in who actually want to work the trip.


No your using your higher paid seniority and higher pay to screw a lower paid employee out of the little money they make. It's unethical and shows how little they care about anyone other than themselves. Shows they care nothing about their employer or the airline. They should make it a an item in the contract that gets you fired. Company I work for has it in their rules, you can trade as hift, but you cannot ask for any compensation for doing so or your fired.

What ever happened to respecting your job, your fellow employees & yourself.?
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:58 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
Don't think that this issue is limited to just the cabin crew, this also happens with within the pilot body at certain airlines too.

My input is that this really depends on the intent of the parties in this situation. If the more senior CC is booking certain high value trips with the intent to sell to a more junior CC, then I'd agree that this is somewhat unethical. If the junior CC approaches the more senior CC to purchase a trip off of them, then I don't necessarily see this as unethical. You might have a friend or family member at a specific layover destination you might want to see. Or perhaps you have personal obligations and the timing of the trip helps you meet your personal obligation.

Don't forget that this system works both ways, you can also pay someone to take your less valuable trip off your hands too.


While true. My company has a selection in the scheduling system to offer a shift if you need time off. If it gets selected by someone needing/wanting extra time then it gets approved. That person gets OT if they already are fully scheduled. However if caught exchanging money or anything both parties can and have been terminated for ethics violation. I love working for a company that values and demands you follow ethical standards on our end and the companies end.
Last edited by rbavfan on Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
COSPN
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:59 pm

The United rampers have to work 1/2 of their scheduled hours per month and not allowed to “trade” in cash or other valuable items in exchange for shift trades...
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:10 pm

SEPilot wrote:
I do not see a problem with this at all. It is completely voluntary, and both parties are presumably satisfied. Those that object are just looking to control other people. Airlines have to establish a pecking order for trip bidding, and nobody has come up with a better or fairer one than seniority. So if a less senior employee wants to purchase the right for a certain trip, and the more senior one is willing to sell it and fly the less desirable one, who is hurt by it? I see it as a win-win.


First, your position/promotion/pay should be based on your ability to do your job, not I have been here 20 years.
Second, you do this 3 times a month & get paid cash. your getting $200. are you reporting that extra $7200 income on your taxes. If not you loose my respect.
Also the second one is a federal offense that can send you to jail.
Third, don't the airlines offer the ability to request a change if the employee needs it?
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:12 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
why retire when you can just create your own business of bidding for senior trips and then selling them to other FAs?


Because you can’t always sell it, that’s why. You end up working a trip you had no intention of working when you bid it. And lest we forget there’s also recurrent compliance training that is required periodically, and you can’t opt-out of that. That’s why no one who wants to retire sticks around so they can keep bidding and selling lines; it doesn’t stop people from retiring as you imply.



If you are senior enough to be able to sell your trips, you sure as heck are senior enough to get rid of them for free.

So if you never have to fly, why retire again? Just keep bidding all your internationals, keep your active status flight benefits and in some cases other lucrative benefits too, and drop (or sell$$$) them all.

Recurrent is one day every year, recurrent is not encouraging anyone to retire. Having to actually fly some of your trips sure will though. And there in lies the issue.
 
luckyone
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:13 pm

All these posts for a concept that blows my mind. What idiot junior PAYS to work?? Pay me to take your shift, sure. But I’m not paying someone else to work more...

Also, aren’t their contract rules deeming how many hours an employee must work? It seems a bit fantastical to think that one could just not work and keep benefits.
Last edited by luckyone on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:24 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
If you are senior enough to be able to sell your trips, you sure as heck are senior enough to get rid of them for free.

So if you never have to fly, why retire again?


Because once again, you can’t guarantee you’ll never have to fly, that’s why! There will always be times where you can’t find someone desperate enough or naive enough to pick up what you bid, and you’ll be the one ending up working it. There are also the many who live outside their base and commute, and for them, the prospect of being “stuck” with a trip they couldn’t get rid of makes retirement more attractive once they’re able to do so.
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Bobloblaw
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:26 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
This creates a corrupt system of haves and have-nots that supersedes the contracts. It also takes away all incentive for people to retire, why retire when you can just create your own business of bidding for senior trips and then selling them to other FAs?

Boom. Nailed it.
I think the word is bribery.
Some posters I noticed are conflating selling trips with trading trips. They aren’t the same
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:27 pm

luckyone wrote:
All these posts for a concept that blows my mind. What idiot junior PAYS to work?? Pay me to take your shift, sure. But I’m not paying someone else to work more...

Also, aren’t their contract rules deeming how many hours an employee must work? It seems a bit fantastical to think that one could just not work and keep benefits.


People who are desperate for extra cash when OT isn’t available, where what they pay is far less than the money earned working the trip, people trying to get off hours-based probation faster, etc.

And yes some contracts or even workgroup/company policies demand X amount of work to remain on payroll, but not all do.
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rbavfan
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:28 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
It’s always amusing to see reactions to things that happen within the industry from people on the outside.


It's also amusing to see how many excuses people use to justify unethical behavior. You know like I go into a restaurant & buy a milk shake. Drink the milk shake & rinse out the cup and refill it with soda. I've been told thats perfectly fine because I bought a drink already. Actually it is theft. After all you bought a non refillable drink & refilled it with another type of drink you did not pay for. Even heard a lady tell an employee at a restaurant it was ok because "you don't understand how hard it is to have 5 children." I just replied to her if you can't afford to have 5 children you should not have had 5. She gave me a look, her friend said thats true, then her freind got the look. Don't uses excuses to justify bad behavior.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:28 pm

luckyone wrote:
All these posts for a concept that blows my mind. What idiot junior PAYS to work?? Pay me to take your shift, sure. But I’m not paying someone else to work more...


If it was ethical and legal and no one had a issue with it would you:

pay $100 for a trip (or if you will paying a senior FA $100 to proxy-use her system seniority to leap frog those others senior to you) that consisted of one leg from JFK to SIN , 48 hour layover in Singapore, and then one leg back to JFK with a 4 or 5 hour nap in a bed on both flights, that paid you 30 block hours and a few hundred dollars in tax free per diem and paid for a nice long hotel stay in a big international city.

or

work 15 legs back and forth around the east coast for the 4 days instead, with short layovers and working every second of all those short legs?

no brainer
 
rbavfan
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:33 pm

SEPilot wrote:
slider wrote:
This has been going on for ages, it's like a subculture--websites and Facebook groups for trip trading and such.

And the senior FAs will "park" trips for others to pick up, which is also a violation at pretty much every airline, but not enforced like it should be. Lot of chicanery going on and I'm glad AA and UA are working to rein that in.

It's not free enterprise--it's against company policy because it violates the very essence of seniority based bidding.

And why is the seniority system so sancrosanct? It is a way to allocate trips without favoritism. As long as all trips get covered why does the airline care about what the crews do in terms of swapping and trading, as long as all flights are staffed by competent and qualified crews? I fail to see where there is any problem as long as there is no coercion.


Glad they don't allocate flights that way to non english speaking countries. Imagine being on a flight in Asia and having no way to communicate with the FA because the FA has 10 years in and deserve the trip, but can't communicate with the passengers. Hope there is not a crash on that one. How would you feel if there was a crash and someone died because they could not understand you!

Thats why training & skills outweigh time on the job.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:35 pm

DL747400 wrote:
TRANSLATION: Corruption

Gee, I wonder whether the senior FAs are using the funds earned from selling their desirable trips and schedules to pay someone else to take college admissions tests for their kids?


Great example, based on a real world issue
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:35 pm

That reminds me of another angle that I'm not sure was discussed in the linked article so ill add: Another thing that is going on is these groups have ringleaders who basically just use the name and password of the senior FAs in their ring and all but take over their life at the airline. They bid for their stable of senior FAs, they rearrange their schedule, they trade and sell the trips. You basically have these whole shadow cadres of super senior FAs that NEVER FLY, but stay hired at the company and rent out their place in the system seniority to these ringleaders, who of course give them a cut $$ of all the profit.

Its a twisted system that leads to stagnation, less retirements than would otherwise be, and keeps the junior people stuck lower on the totem pole then would otherwise be. The junior people have to just take it, or PAY TO PLAY (get the trips they would of been getting naturally if the super senior FAs did not linger around selling their seniority to these mafia ring leaders).
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:52 pm

This was a problem when I worked at HA 12 years ago. A particular F/A near the top of the seniority list would bid for very desirable trips every month (turns which only required you to work less than 10 days a months to be "full time") and every month they would trade their entire schedule to the same junior person ... every month.

The trip they did this with was a trip you had to be in the top 25 to hold. Needless to say the people between 25 and 50 on the seniority list who would have had a chance at the trip were not happy, and I don't blame them.

After I left, I believe HA implemented a system (negotiated with/by the union) where trades had to be dropped into open time for at least 24 or 48 hours so everyone had an equal chance to pick them up.

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Last edited by aloha73g on Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:52 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
these groups have ringleaders who basically just use the name and password of the senior FAs in their ring and all but take over their life at the airline. They bid for their stable of senior FAs, they rearrange their schedule, they trade and sell the trips.


At most companies, sharing your login credentials to any company system, including a bid system, is a serious security violation that can (and has!) resulted in termination. And it’s easy to prove by IT.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:58 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Thats why training & skills outweigh time on the job.


Then you’re free to start union decertification drives at each airline represented by one, and tell the FAs at DL their work rules are changing, and bids will now be done on merit instead of seniority. Let me know how it works out for you.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:10 pm

rbavfan wrote:
First, your position/promotion/pay should be based on your ability to do your job, not I have been here 20 years.

How exactly would you measure "ability to do your job" for straight-forward jobs such as FA, without causing more trouble?

Chances are we'd end up with promotions for sale rather than trips.

Bottom line is the seniority system makes life easier for both management and the workforce.

Many here are pointing out how to curb the abuses.

If they matter to the company, they'll make them a priority during collective bargaining.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:13 pm

rbavfan wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
slider wrote:
This has been going on for ages, it's like a subculture--websites and Facebook groups for trip trading and such.

And the senior FAs will "park" trips for others to pick up, which is also a violation at pretty much every airline, but not enforced like it should be. Lot of chicanery going on and I'm glad AA and UA are working to rein that in.

It's not free enterprise--it's against company policy because it violates the very essence of seniority based bidding.

And why is the seniority system so sancrosanct? It is a way to allocate trips without favoritism. As long as all trips get covered why does the airline care about what the crews do in terms of swapping and trading, as long as all flights are staffed by competent and qualified crews? I fail to see where there is any problem as long as there is no coercion.


Glad they don't allocate flights that way to non english speaking countries. Imagine being on a flight in Asia and having no way to communicate with the FA because the FA has 10 years in and deserve the trip, but can't communicate with the passengers. Hope there is not a crash on that one. How would you feel if there was a crash and someone died because they could not understand you!

Thats why training & skills outweigh time on the job.


The brunt of international routes have dedicated language speakers, however, and each Inflight base has a separate bid pool of FAs who are speakers. Not all Mexico flights have dedicated FA interpreter positions, however, but other countries, generally yes, for all US majors.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:39 pm

A very biblical situation; Esau sells his birthright to his younger brother Jacob for a bowl of lentil stew...
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:59 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
This creates a corrupt system of haves and have-nots that supersedes the contracts. It also takes away all incentive for people to retire, why retire when you can just create your own business of bidding for senior trips and then selling them to other FAs?

This is my problem with it - when it goes beyond even gaming the system. I think the word "corrupt" is far too emotive, but it's a sign of the hyperbolic times. Do these swaps have to get signed off on by any supervisory personnel? I am not ITB so I don't know. A simple "Hey Joe, I see you bid on Paris every month but you never seem to fly there" should be enough to reign in the abuses.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:04 pm

U
Bricktop wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
This creates a corrupt system of haves and have-nots that supersedes the contracts. It also takes away all incentive for people to retire, why retire when you can just create your own business of bidding for senior trips and then selling them to other FAs?

This is my problem with it - when it goes beyond even gaming the system. I think the word "corrupt" is far too emotive, but it's a sign of the hyperbolic times. Do these swaps have to get signed off on by any supervisory personnel? I am not ITB so I don't know. A simple "Hey Joe, I see you bid on Paris every month but you never seem to fly there" should be enough to reign in the abuses.


There isn’t a need for any supervisor approval unless a trip trade is touching the airlines set buffers in whatever bid/trade software they use to ensure FAA and CBA legalities are met and not broken.

Otherwise, trades are approved if both parties agree to the trade usually almost the same with Add/dropping trips (but is usually limited by reserve coverages).
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:17 pm

777PHX wrote:
gen2stew wrote:
If a crew member has the seniority to hold a trip its theirs fair and square. It's none of anyone's business what they do with it. Most posters comments aren't of any merit since it's not their career. Go back to your cube and start another Doug Parker bashing thread or another e-shrine to DL


You're awfully high and mighty for being glorified wait staff, aren't you?

You don't have to pop Coke tops for a living to be able to analyze this and comment on it.

And you sir are the reason many flight attendants are so snappy onboard
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:21 pm

zeke wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
I know that there is a bidding system, but I honestly would never have believed that such things as described here existed.

Yes, one can argue that both sides are "happy" yet, to pay a co-worker for for a certain flight is both a crappy way to treat your colleagues and taking advantages of your position within an airline. It is simply corruption.

Written warning should be given for first-time offenders, then if it happens again. Out the door you go.


I don’t like this corruption term.

Our swapping and proffering system is all done via the work IT systems and it ensures the flights are leagally crewed. The money is taken out of one persons pay and put in another’s by the company payroll system.

The rates of pay are defined in the manuals.

The company is happy because the flights are crewed, and the crew are happy as they can time off when they would otherwise be rostered to fly.

This is how it should work at all airlines.

However, many posters are describing misuse / abuse of position / length of service / seniority for personal gain.

Could this explain why US legacies seem to have such mediocre service from mature staff, who presumably only fly when the 'system' goes wrong?
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:09 pm

I was married to a flight attendant for 16 years and I remember the buying and selling trips very well. One aspect of it that I found hard to believe was the “bid services” run by some flight attendants and how the company allowed it to happen. A bid service is where a flight attendant would have access to many multiples of flight attendants schedules and would move trips from schedule to schedule based on the flight attendants wants or needs. The bid service would collect a fee from the flight attendants for each trip moved from schedule to schedule. From what I was told, these bid services owners were able to supplement their income quit nicely from all of the trip trading going on. I don’t know if bid services are still operating today or not.
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:18 pm

All of the bid services and buying and selling of trips at my carrier is forbidden. It has resulted in people losing their jobs. Trips don’t belong to crew, they belong to the carrier.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:30 pm

luckyone wrote:
All these posts for a concept that blows my mind. What idiot junior PAYS to work?? Pay me to take your shift, sure. But I’m not paying someone else to work more....


The ones that have the means and don't want to be flying 7 legs a day to crappy cities in the midwest. They're buying quality of life.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:35 pm

I wonder if the FA selling her schedule is using the extra money to get her kid into Yale?
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:07 pm

Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:18 pm

Well, you can make six figures picking up a few extra trips, you get to work with different people all he time, go to different places, and meet wonderful people like you! We cherish those moments.
 
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:56 pm

F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.


Pretty sad that so many supposed aviation enthusiasts come to these forums with high-and-mighty attitudes and crap on the people who chose to work in aviation.
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