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san88
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:00 am

Seniority is everything and most people who take the job know that the basics of seniority, trading, swapping, dropping of schedules and shifts. This is industry standard and similar across ALL workgroups. From my experience, senior folks bid good trips, and those trips will be picked up free or sold to someone who is willing to work that trip. Everything is mutually agreed upon by FA A and FA B. It is standard that if you want a day off, you will need someone to work it. It is frown upon to make someone pay you for the trip you have.

The Airline contractually awards trips and schedules to Flight Attendants and most are scheduled to work between 12-15 days a month. The airline does not care what happens to those trips as long as they are staffed, they have a hands-off approach when it comes to trading or selling of trips. A flight attendant can take weeks or months off at a time by giving away shifts, OR a flight attendant can work more picking up shifts for cash or overtime, and make well over 100K at the top of the pay scale. The job is flexible and we all accept the good and bad with seniority that comes with it. We also have flight attendants who just work their schedule trips and days and do not participate in any of it.
Last edited by san88 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:10 am

Wonder if I can sell my senority? Unfortunately on my type we are all old for the most part—a dying breed. Probably not. Haha. This is kinda taking the topic off the rails but as far as flight deck crew usually the least experience end up with the most challenging flights. At my age I like not too early and not too late. Temperate weather if possible. I avoid the nastiness. Ironic huh.
 
PI4EVER
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:29 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:18 am

Oh grow up. Trades have been going on for decades. As Zeke noted, as long as the trip or shift is covered the airline gives a flip.
I was a young, TV dinner eating F/A in 1969 trying to live in Washington, DC on less than military pay I received the year prior. Go figure.
I supplemented my monthly income by trip trades that even in those olden days netted me lots of extra money.
I worked mind blogging multi-trip days that older F/A's gladly traded off. As long as they worked their minimum hours they could trade anything.
I made more gross income in 1970 working trip trades I DID NOT REPORT AS INCOME than the senior F/A in the base.
The trips were covered and the company was not involved in the trade whatsoever. Susie Q F/A stayed home with kids and Dad and I flew my ass off. F/A/'s married to high paying pilots worked trips w/hubby or near their schedule or "paid off" trades to stay home w/them.
I was young and could handle the fatigue better than I could 20 years later.
Its unique to the industry and applies across the board to employees who do not work a conventional Mon-Fri 9-5 schedule.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
WWads
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:18 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:24 am

smartplane wrote:
zeke wrote:
OSL777FLYER wrote:
I know that there is a bidding system, but I honestly would never have believed that such things as described here existed.

Yes, one can argue that both sides are "happy" yet, to pay a co-worker for for a certain flight is both a crappy way to treat your colleagues and taking advantages of your position within an airline. It is simply corruption.

Written warning should be given for first-time offenders, then if it happens again. Out the door you go.


I don’t like this corruption term.

Our swapping and proffering system is all done via the work IT systems and it ensures the flights are leagally crewed. The money is taken out of one persons pay and put in another’s by the company payroll system.

The rates of pay are defined in the manuals.

The company is happy because the flights are crewed, and the crew are happy as they can time off when they would otherwise be rostered to fly.

This is how it should work at all airlines.

However, many posters are describing misuse / abuse of position / length of service / seniority for personal gain.

Could this explain why US legacies seem to have such mediocre service from mature staff, who presumably only fly when the 'system' goes wrong?


It certainly explains why the service on AA's "premier" longhaul routes like DFW-HKG is so awful. FAs should be subject to mandatory retirement at 60, since they're supposedly there for your safety.

Asian and Middle Eastern airlines get this right. At the end of the day, shape up or ship out.
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:32 am

Wonder if I can sell my senority? Unfortunately on my type we are all old for the most part—a dying breed. Probably not. Haha. This is kinda taking the topic off the rails but as far as flight deck crew usually the least experience end up with the most challenging flights. At my age I like not too early and not too late. Temperate weather if possible. I avoid the nastiness. Ironic huh.
 
AtomicGarden
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:33 am

Crew schedulers must love this system! talk about doing work for nothing...

BTW I'm sure AA, UA, any airline, must have clause in their contract which strictly forbids making a profit out of the job. In my a/l non reving for both employees and their family is monitored, so you cannot fly more than 5 times AFAIK to the same destination in the same year without providing justification (say, relatives). The husband of an ex colleague went every weekend to the same destination because he had a toy store, and bought stuff for his shop. Result? benefits suspended for five yeras
You killed a black astronaut, Cyril! That's like killing a unicorn!
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:35 am

MD80Ttail wrote:
Wonder if I can sell my senority? Unfortunately on my type we are all old for the most part—a dying breed. Probably not. Haha. This is kinda taking the topic off the rails but as far as flight deck crew usually the least experience end up with the most challenging flights. At my age I like not too early and not too late. Temperate weather if possible. I avoid the nastiness. Ironic huh.



Forget 60. There should be weight and appearance standards. That’s the thing I miss most from my younger days. All in the name of safety—right!!?!!?! Seriously our FAs have become “hychunga” the term courtesy of my youngest grandchild.
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:36 am

I miss real “layovers”
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:36 am

.....and before you flame my wife knew and understood before we got married.
 
klkla
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:41 am

WWads wrote:
It certainly explains why the service on AA's "premier" longhaul routes like DFW-HKG is so awful. FAs should be subject to mandatory retirement at 60, since they're supposedly there for your safety.


On most of the long haul flights I have been on, if there was a service problem it was usually with one of the younger less experienced crew members.

If AA has bad service on a particular route it is not because of the FA's age. The faults belongs to AA management for not developing better customer service programs and for poorly implementing & monitoring the programs they do have in place. S--t always slows down hill.
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:38 am

klkla wrote:
WWads wrote:
It certainly explains why the service on AA's "premier" longhaul routes like DFW-HKG is so awful. FAs should be subject to mandatory retirement at 60, since they're supposedly there for your safety.


On most of the long haul flights I have been on, if there was a service problem it was usually with one of the younger less experienced crew members.

If AA has bad service on a particular route it is not because of the FA's age. The faults belongs to AA management for not developing better customer service programs and for poorly implementing & monitoring the programs they do have in place. S--t always slows down hill.


Or it could be that the FAs just plain a** don’t give a damn about the job. But I agree, the younger ones are the ones I usually have problems with, in the few instances I’ve had problems. The older ones are worse when it comes to union issues. The younger ones have attitude issues most of the time.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:27 am

F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.



Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.
 
PBITran
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:55 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:59 am

Ionosphere wrote:
It's been happening for years at every airline. Seniority is literally everything.

For example:
Brenda in DFW can work two HKGs a month to keep her health insurance. She can sell her other two HKGs that month to new hire. $200 is only about 4hrs worth of flying for a new hire. International also has a higher per diem. So it's really not a bad deal for them either. $400 in Brenda's pocket.



what airline is starting new hires at $50/hr? I need to apply. It's more like $200 = 10 hours of flying.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7884
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:13 pm

Union Shop I work for allows shift and AV trades, the company understands that sometimes you need a certain day off or a different week off than you got for your AV sign up. But its capped, you are only allowed so many shift/AV trades per year, they must be publicly posted and if one penny exchanges hands, you're looking for a new job.

If the these FAs want to trades shifts, that's awesome, but as soon as they start getting money for it, their wings need to be clipped. Thats wrong on every level.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
F27500
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:32 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.



Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.
 
twicearound
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:29 pm

F27500 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.



Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.


Most FA's at the us majors are making close to 6 figures once they reach top out pay (year 11-13).
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5092
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:39 pm

For anybody that isn't a flight attendant or a Pilot? What do you care? You wouldn't know if a less senior Captain, First Officer, Or Flight Attendant were working your flight. As Long as your flight Departs and Arrives safely? WGAS??
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:49 pm

twicearound wrote:
F27500 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:


Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.


Most FA's at the us majors are making close to 6 figures once they reach top out pay (year 11-13).


According to who? It looks like most of them top out at $60k-$70k for an average line.

Now, sure, you can pickup trips and work some ungodly number of hours and maybe get close to that, but not for a normal number of hours worked.
 
twicearound
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:55 pm

777PHX wrote:
twicearound wrote:
F27500 wrote:

That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.


Most FA's at the us majors are making close to 6 figures once they reach top out pay (year 11-13).


According to who? It looks like most of them top out at $60k-$70k for an average line.

Now, sure, you can pickup trips and work some ungodly number of hours and maybe get close to that, but not on average.


According to me. 12 year FA at one of the majors. Top out pay is $65 an hour. If I fly 100 hours a month (which is very realistic) my base salary is 78k. That is before any per diem, LOD pay, purser pay, profit sharing, international pay. etc.
 
jersey777
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:02 am

F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.



Well, after my shift of serving drinks and meals I’m in Paris......and I also made 96k doing it working 18 days a month. Go figure.
 
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B727skyguy
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:23 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:21 am

I'm surprised the companies allow the practice. At all of the places I've worked, any exchange of money for a shift was grounds for termination.
 
SoCalFlyer
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:16 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:36 am

This happens all the time. Some carriers only require you to work a certain amount of hours in 6 months to keep your benefits. You’re allowed to bid a full schedule and then drop down to zero hours if you want and there’s someone willing to take your trip. Some senior crew members only want the job for travel and health insurance and that’s it, but you’re technically not required to work one single flight as long as you get the trios covered. This is where the high value routes come in, the more senior people bid them, because they know they can get rid of them and people will take them off their hands.
 
FlyBitcoin
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:38 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:15 am

Seems like when I fly TATL or TPAC on a US-based carrier, the FA's often act like they wished they could have sold their trip for $200 to someone else.

If you have seniority, and despite those perks, you don't like your job anymore, then just quit. Life is too short. Then the people who are buying the slots now will be more senior in your place.
 
cpd
Posts: 6552
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:08 am

Shouldn't the airline itself get a share of this money too? After all, it's the airline that is enabling these schemes to happen, so surely the airline and its shareholders deserve some of the profits? :duck: Somehow I suspect the people running these schemes won't see it that way. :scratchchin:

ual763 wrote:
The younger ones have attitude issues most of the time.


In the airlines I've flown, some of the younger staff on the plane have never had attitudes. Maybe it is just certain airlines.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:52 am

F27500 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.



Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.



Southwest FAs after 10 or so years in make 70 a hour, get automatic time and a half for anything worked in the last few days and beginning few days of each month, get a 9 percent direct contribution to their 401k and regularly get profit sharing equal to 10k or more each year. Thats not even getting into per diem, multiple weeks paid vacation per year and the rest.

You sound flabbergasted that the people serving you cokes all these years make more money than you lol, sorry.
 
departedflights
Posts: 162
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:21 am

F27500 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
F27500 wrote:
Why do people even go into this sad poor paying line of work? You are not taken seriously by most as a "safety professional". You are even sneered at by your airline because they view you as an airborne customer service agent (which you pretty much are) .. a necessary evil due to FAA regulations … not some highly skilled professional like you feel you are .. in spite of your 6 full weeks of training. It is not a profession .. it a position. You come out of a FA job (once your airline lays you off or goes tits up) with no credentials that you can apply to any other job. Pretty sad.



Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.


You have no idea how much flight attendants make. At my carrier, the top pay rate is almost $70 an hour and many, many people I know make over $100,000 a year.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
F27500
Posts: 831
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:52 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:07 pm

departedflights wrote:
F27500 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:


Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.


You have no idea how much flight attendants make. At my carrier, the top pay rate is almost $70 an hour and many, many people I know make over $100,000 a year.



Sorry Greg: .. average is 31 per hour .. top is 61 … not 70.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Southw ... O19,35.htm

And if anyone at WN is making 100,000+ its because theyre working ALOT of OT .. that's not a normal salary by any means .. you know that. Don't BS.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:20 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
F27500 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:


Because you can expect to make $100k a year after a few years and that is without much overtime. Its also more varied and interesting than sitting at a desk all day thinking about your two weeks of vacation a year.


That is absolute TOTAL rubbish. NO carrier is paying flight attendants anything near 100K after just "a few years" without overtime … (or ever) … you have me laughing hysterically here.



Southwest FAs after 10 or so years in make 70 a hour, get automatic time and a half for anything worked in the last few days and beginning few days of each month, get a 9 percent direct contribution to their 401k and regularly get profit sharing equal to 10k or more each year. Thats not even getting into per diem, multiple weeks paid vacation per year and the rest.

You sound flabbergasted that the people serving you cokes all these years make more money than you lol, sorry.

The top out pay is $63.30, not $70 and it takes 13 years to top out. And they get paid by the segment and mileage, not hourly.
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:46 pm

twicearound wrote:
777PHX wrote:
twicearound wrote:

Most FA's at the us majors are making close to 6 figures once they reach top out pay (year 11-13).


According to who? It looks like most of them top out at $60k-$70k for an average line.

Now, sure, you can pickup trips and work some ungodly number of hours and maybe get close to that, but not on average.


According to me. 12 year FA at one of the majors. Top out pay is $65 an hour. If I fly 100 hours a month (which is very realistic) my base salary is 78k. That is before any per diem, LOD pay, purser pay, profit sharing, international pay. etc.


A typical line is, what, 80 hours/month? 80 hours x $70/hr is $5600/month before taxes or $67k/annual.

I guess that's good money for an unskilled career path.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5092
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:18 am

ual763 wrote:
gen2stew wrote:
If a crew member has the seniority to hold a trip its theirs fair and square. It's none of anyone's business what they do with it. Most posters comments aren't of any merit since it's not their career. Go back to your cube and start another Doug Parker bashing thread or another e-shrine to DL


It is not “theirs”. It is still the company’s and the employee doesn’t get to sell it. If the employee has something pop up and needs to trade someone, then just ask for a trade. If the trip is that coveted, there will be more than enough people willing to trade with you.

It boggles my mind, the number of people on here willing to defend corruption in the name of “scheduling necessities” or “factors of life”.

If you’re willing to sell a trip for $200, believe me, they had no intention of ever flying it to begin with. It’s all a money making scheme and it needs to stop.

what does the company LOSE as long as THE TRIP IS CREWED??
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:26 am

strfyr51 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
gen2stew wrote:
If a crew member has the seniority to hold a trip its theirs fair and square. It's none of anyone's business what they do with it. Most posters comments aren't of any merit since it's not their career. Go back to your cube and start another Doug Parker bashing thread or another e-shrine to DL


It is not “theirs”. It is still the company’s and the employee doesn’t get to sell it. If the employee has something pop up and needs to trade someone, then just ask for a trade. If the trip is that coveted, there will be more than enough people willing to trade with you.

It boggles my mind, the number of people on here willing to defend corruption in the name of “scheduling necessities” or “factors of life”.

If you’re willing to sell a trip for $200, believe me, they had no intention of ever flying it to begin with. It’s all a money making scheme and it needs to stop.

what does the company LOSE as long as THE TRIP IS CREWED??


The other employees LOSE.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
twicearound
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:27 am

777PHX wrote:
twicearound wrote:
777PHX wrote:

According to who? It looks like most of them top out at $60k-$70k for an average line.

Now, sure, you can pickup trips and work some ungodly number of hours and maybe get close to that, but not on average.


According to me. 12 year FA at one of the majors. Top out pay is $65 an hour. If I fly 100 hours a month (which is very realistic) my base salary is 78k. That is before any per diem, LOD pay, purser pay, profit sharing, international pay. etc.


A typical line is, what, 80 hours/month? 80 hours x $70/hr is $5600/month before taxes or $67k/annual.

I guess that's good money for an unskilled career path.


You're forgetting the rest of a typical flight attendant's pay which contributes to much more than just a base hourly rate, but you clearly know nothing about the industry. If you did you'd have a grasp on how much our total compensation packages work.
Also, a Flight Attendant career falls into the semi-skilled job category, and according to the social security job classification, it's considered a skilled position.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15765
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:50 am

ual763 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
ual763 wrote:

It is not “theirs”. It is still the company’s and the employee doesn’t get to sell it. If the employee has something pop up and needs to trade someone, then just ask for a trade. If the trip is that coveted, there will be more than enough people willing to trade with you.

It boggles my mind, the number of people on here willing to defend corruption in the name of “scheduling necessities” or “factors of life”.

If you’re willing to sell a trip for $200, believe me, they had no intention of ever flying it to begin with. It’s all a money making scheme and it needs to stop.

what does the company LOSE as long as THE TRIP IS CREWED??


The other employees LOSE.


The other employees are the ones allowing this to happen by creating a market; if no one picked up these trips, those who were brokering them would quickly find they'd have to fly all they were bidding and their behavior would change.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:53 am

twicearound wrote:
777PHX wrote:
twicearound wrote:

According to me. 12 year FA at one of the majors. Top out pay is $65 an hour. If I fly 100 hours a month (which is very realistic) my base salary is 78k. That is before any per diem, LOD pay, purser pay, profit sharing, international pay. etc.


A typical line is, what, 80 hours/month? 80 hours x $70/hr is $5600/month before taxes or $67k/annual.

I guess that's good money for an unskilled career path.


You're forgetting the rest of a typical flight attendant's pay which contributes to much more than just a base hourly rate, but you clearly know nothing about the industry. If you did you'd have a grasp on how much our total compensation packages work.
Also, a Flight Attendant career falls into the semi-skilled job category, and according to the social security job classification, it's considered a skilled position.


Yeah, and I also didn't take into account the number of hours F/As are at "work", but not on the clock. It's not as glamorous as it looks.
 
lutfi
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:14 am

zeke wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Basically, a senior FA books an desirable schedule using seniority. Then "trades" with a more junior FA who wants it. For the trade, the junior FA gives both a less desirable schedule, and $$$.

Happening at AA and United. Both the company and the union want it to stop. If both the senior and junior in the trade are made more happy, it is not obviously evil.

https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... t-to-stop/


I don’t have a problem with this at all.

Swapping and selling trips is very common across the industry. The airline business is 24/7 business, crew rosters are generated that have crew working often through important holidays, birthdays, family sickness etc. Often the easiest way to get the time off to meet an external commitment is to get someone else to fly a trip for you.

The airline is happy as the flight is still crewed without anyone reporting sick which would mean using reserve crew.

I can understand that this seems odd to some people who work office hours, however when you have a job that can have you rostered to work every holiday, weekend, and birthday, having the ability to get someone else to fly a trip for you is highly desirable for crew.


However, in HK selling (vs swapping) is illegal under the anti-corruption/ bribery laws. I recall a CX cabin crew committed suicide some time back because of an investigation.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 am

EA CO AS wrote:
ual763 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
what does the company LOSE as long as THE TRIP IS CREWED??


The other employees LOSE.


The other employees are the ones allowing this to happen by creating a market; if no one picked up these trips, those who were brokering them would quickly find they'd have to fly all they were bidding and their behavior would change.


You couldn't be more right. When we started flying to Hawaii there was one very senior FA that bid and then sold her Hawaii trips for $100 to anyone that wanted to pay her for them. Because it was so new, and it was Hawaii, she would manage to sell most of them. It was skanky. As we added more and more Hawaii trips, and they weren't as hard to get for anyone basically, her market dried up and she stopped. Nobody cared anymore - still, I always hated that people would pay her for her trips - and I hated that the company looked the other way at her side business.
 
san88
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority.

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:24 am

777PHX wrote:
twicearound wrote:
777PHX wrote:

According to who? It looks like most of them top out at $60k-$70k for an average line.

Now, sure, you can pickup trips and work some ungodly number of hours and maybe get close to that, but not on average.


According to me. 12 year FA at one of the majors. Top out pay is $65 an hour. If I fly 100 hours a month (which is very realistic) my base salary is 78k. That is before any per diem, LOD pay, purser pay, profit sharing, international pay. etc.


A typical line is, what, 80 hours/month? 80 hours x $70/hr is $5600/month before taxes or $67k/annual.

I guess that's good money for an unskilled career path.


It is indeed. 12-15 workdays and 12-15 days off a month. 9% direct 401k match dollar for dollar. 5-8k in non taxed yearly per-diem. 4 or 5 weeks paid vacation. It’s sounds like a crappy Job right ? In all honesty, it’s the best kept secret if you fly smarter and not harder. That’s why most people at my carrier show up with a smile and continue asking if you want refills , cause it’s the easiest job and we’re laughing all the way to the bank :D
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority.

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:37 am

san88 wrote:
777PHX wrote:
twicearound wrote:

According to me. 12 year FA at one of the majors. Top out pay is $65 an hour. If I fly 100 hours a month (which is very realistic) my base salary is 78k. That is before any per diem, LOD pay, purser pay, profit sharing, international pay. etc.


A typical line is, what, 80 hours/month? 80 hours x $70/hr is $5600/month before taxes or $67k/annual.

I guess that's good money for an unskilled career path.


It is indeed. 12-15 workdays and 12-15 days off a month. 9% direct 401k match dollar for dollar. 5-8k in non taxed yearly per-diem. 4 or 5 weeks paid vacation. It’s sounds like a crappy Job right ? In all honesty, it’s the best kept secret if you fly smarter and not harder. That’s why most people at my carrier show up with a smile and continue asking if you want refills , cause it’s the easiest job and we’re laughing all the way to the bank :D


bingo bango. but hey, let people think it's awful. I'm laughing all the way to the bank too.
 
lutfi
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:46 am

Legally/ morally, what is the difference of a crew selling trips, and a crew recruiter selling jobs? I mean, the airline gets the lines filled/ crew positions filled anyway. Would you disagree with needing to give a recruiter a bunch of cash to get an airline job in the first place?
 
THS214
Posts: 372
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:26 pm

Why stop there? Once the doors are closed why not sell upgrades for better seats (service level remains the same)? Win win situation and airline doesn't lose anything. ;)
 
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Slug71
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:28 pm

SEPilot wrote:
I do not see a problem with this at all. It is completely voluntary, and both parties are presumably satisfied. Those that object are just looking to control other people. Airlines have to establish a pecking order for trip bidding, and nobody has come up with a better or fairer one than seniority. So if a less senior employee wants to purchase the right for a certain trip, and the more senior one is willing to sell it and fly the less desirable one, who is hurt by it? I see it as a win-win.


Completely agreed.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:21 pm

It doesn’t effect the company or the passengers, get over it, paying someone to work your shift or paying to pick up shifts or flights have been going on the 30 years I’ve been in the industry, it isn’t just isn’t limited to Flight Attendants.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:03 pm

Anywhere else this could have been resulted in immediate termination.

When a benefit is awarded to an employee, the "reselling" of it usually is a "no-no". For example, many employees have been fired in the history of airlines for selling their flight passes to third parties. When an employer smells unethical behavior, it could be a big deal.
 
kalvado
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:18 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
For anybody that isn't a flight attendant or a Pilot? What do you care? You wouldn't know if a less senior Captain, First Officer, Or Flight Attendant were working your flight. As Long as your flight Departs and Arrives safely? WGAS??

Well, many people see this as an ethics question - and people do have opinions on ethical issues of other people. In fact, ethics is just the way of doing things according to certain society expectations.
Vanilla exchanging shifts/schedules is OK with most people. Everyone had to do that at some point - family emergency, medical emergency, scheduling availability, whatnot.
Once money becomes involved... We do expect some things to be done without monetary background. If I pull over to help a stranger on a highway, I don't expect any money. Doesn't mean there is no room for professional roadside assistance, though - but that is a different story. No money for blood donations (US at least). So on.
Where does trading schedules for significant amount of cash belongs in the grand scheme of things? Not sure. For me it is a grey area, if not dark grey.
Once in a while thing - maybe.... reluctantly... On an on-going basis? Well.... How about the other approach: maybe airline can negotiate lower FA rate for those great destinations and pass some savings to pax?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:51 pm

I couldn’t keep corporate F/As at nearly a 100k, going rate for good ones is over 110k, 15 days a month and only 4-8 pax.



Gf
 
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yyz717
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:10 pm

SEPilot wrote:
I do not see a problem with this at all. It is completely voluntary, and both parties are presumably satisfied. Those that object are just looking to control other people. Airlines have to establish a pecking order for trip bidding, and nobody has come up with a better or fairer one than seniority. So if a less senior employee wants to purchase the right for a certain trip, and the more senior one is willing to sell it and fly the less desirable one, who is hurt by it? I see it as a win-win.


Totally agree. This is simply capitalism at its best. I have something you want (or v.v.) and I sell it to you.

Since training standards and service offerings remain the same for the airline passenger, no one is hurt.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:19 pm

It is not wrong to trade shifts, to be able and allowed to trade. If there is an official market and structure and rules set up for it then fine.
But it is flat wrong if is not structured and officially sanctioned with rules and review etc. and any money is exchanged. Unions and airlines should end it.

It is the exact same as a kickback on any business deal. "He pay me this on the side and I will give you an even better deal".

If its OK, post it. Inform your management, union or otherwise, of the amount paid and the shifts traded. That definitely proves it is fine and OK.

I suspect many supporters here are people who benefit from it so are defending it out of greed and an expectation that they "deserve" it or they may have been doing it for years without thinking much about it and can't imagine themselves as doing anything wrong

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Boof02671
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:44 pm

Says the non-airline people whom never missed Thanksgiving, Christmas or a kids birthday or sporting event.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:11 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Says the non-airline people whom never missed Thanksgiving, Christmas or a kids birthday or sporting event.

???
First, yes I have missed several of those days and events to know full well it sucks but the job is the job and sometimes it calls for it. It is part of what I get paid for. So not sure what you are trying to get at there. Even people who don't travel miss tons of things they would rather not miss.

Second I don't think anyone here is saying you can't trade shifts whenever you need to do so. The question comes to getting paid on the side for it. I think it is a pretty simple test that if people are willing to post the trade and the fee paid it is definitely fine and above board.

Why wouldn't people be OK with that?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Flight Attendants are Selling Their Seniority

Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:12 pm

It happens all the time in the airline industry, no one gets harmed.

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