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Boof02671
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:57 pm

If they need bigger they can order the Max 9 or 10.
 
bgm
Posts: 2508
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:12 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
AS got their Airbus airplanes by merger as did AA (via UsAir, and DL.(via NWA) United was the only one who went out and Bought Airbus Narrow bodies with intention. (that worked out by the way)


Do you even bother to check the drivel you spout? :sarcastic:

AA ordered a ton of A32X BEFORE they merged with US.

Nov 2011
https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/ne ... s-part-its

Delta ordered a bunch of A321s (CEO and NEO) just a few years ago (i.e. NOT inherited by the DL/NW merger):

2014 - Initial A321CEO order (37) with followup orders for additional frames:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... a321s.html

2017: Delta Air Lines places order for 100 A321neo ACF aircraft
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
 
Busyboy2
Posts: 78
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Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:29 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
SEPilot wrote:

You totally miss the reason WN has been successful. It has been by finding their niche and sticking to it.


I understand the reasons for their success, thank you very much. As far as sticking to their niche, no, they haven't. Flying into slot controlled airports, de facto hubs, international ops etc...not part of their historic niche. Yes, they do what they do and do it well but they have also evolved and adapted their operations accordingly. They do keep fares reasonable in competitive markets. But they are no longer the pesky little upstart the majors dreaded to compete with. They are essentially a one-class legacy carrier with no global reach, no interlining, no alliance. In the long term the 737 family can only get them so far.


Gee, flying full airplanes around with happy customers, with happy highly paid employees who love their jobs and earn the company buckets of money sounds completely terrible.... Take your pessimism elsewhere.
 
Busyboy2
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:57 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:31 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
If they need bigger they can order the Max 9 or 10.


Not going to happen.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:43 pm

You don’t know that.
 
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Johnv707
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:24 pm

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:45 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
You know, I kind of find it strange that many all-Boeing airlines such as Southwest or pre-merger Alaska get criticized for sticking to one fleet type, but you don't really hear that many complaints about airlines being all-Airbus. Like I don't recall people bringing up the fact that easyJet or Wizz only using Airbus planes, and only rarely the same argument for AirAsia. Anti-Boeing sentiment perhaps?


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
Busyboy2
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:57 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:55 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You don’t know that.

Yes i do.
 
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zeke
Posts: 15280
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Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:58 pm

LDRA wrote:
But the title is not true at all. Southwest operates two types, 737NG and 737Max


They are the same type, however different variants. Type refers to the type certificate, the 737NG and 737Max are share the same type certificate.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:07 pm

Busyboy2 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
You don’t know that.

Yes i do.

Ok Gary Kelly, you have zero clue what WN will order in the future
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 456
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:39 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
I wonder if the cost to resurrect some 737 classics (yes, I know they've been de-spec'd and sold off, etc) would be cheaper than the supposed $150M they're losing due to the MAX grounding. Now the timing, that's a different story...


They might need to place a call to Coca-Cola ;-)

Simply, no!
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:59 pm

Busyboy2 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
If they need bigger they can order the Max 9 or 10.


Not going to happen.


I'll take that bet, Busyboy2. As a big MAX operator, and with a route network that has a lot of high volume city pairs, they'd be stupid - just stupid - not to fly MAX 10s at some point.
 
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Veigar
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:08 pm

My thoughts:

It's great and it works for them. Next question.
 
Cunard
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:58 pm

LDRA wrote:
But the title is not true at all. Southwest operates two types, 737NG and 737Max


At the end of the day a B737NG and a B737MAX are still a B737 regardless of them being two different designations, WN have a large fleet that's based solely on the B737 series, not the A320 series, not the A220 series but the B737 series regardless of the fact that they operate both the NG and MAX versions.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1866
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:00 pm

zeke wrote:
LDRA wrote:
But the title is not true at all. Southwest operates two types, 737NG and 737Max


They are the same type, however different variants. Type refers to the type certificate, the 737NG and 737Max are share the same type certificate.

Same type certificate; but aren't the 737NG & 737MAX on 2 different pilot ratings? Wasn't it the whole issue that pushed WN to retire the 737Classic as the FAA refused to have pilots certified on all 3 types?
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:18 pm

Busyboy2 wrote:

Gee, flying full airplanes around with happy customers, with happy highly paid employees who love their jobs and earn the company buckets of money sounds completely terrible.... Take your pessimism elsewhere.


Do you know the difference between pessimism and realism? Apparently not.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:23 pm

SEPilot wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
My thoughts on WN may go against their philosophy but I think WN is missing out on potential (profitable) traffic by limiting themselves to one mainline fleet type.The 737 in whatever form can only do so much for WN. The 717's from FL could have plugged many smaller markets into the WN system but their holy mantra of 737 and ONLY 737s limits them a great deal. The 717 was obviously an interim possibility in retrospect but could have been a platform to extend the WN philosophy to many more stations.

I think we all agree that WN is no longer an LCC, but rather a DFC, ie....Decent Fare Carrier. They do keep the US3 in check, in SOME markets but the days of the "Southwest Effect" are essentially over.

You totally miss the reason WN has been successful. It has been by finding their niche and sticking to it. They never have attempted to serve all markets, they have carefully selected the ones where they believe they can make a profit with their single type, the 737. They do not fly to most of the major airports; they find smaller ones nearby that have lower costs, like Midway instead of ORD. Sure, their is money to be made by flying to other cities with other types, but WN is happy to let others do it. Their results speak for themselves. Even when the rest of the airline industry in the country is ALL losing money (like after 9/11) WN still made money. It used to be said, and was probably true a few years ago, that the entire airline industry worldwide from its inception until that time collectively had not made a dime. Their is no other major industry in this country that I know of where every single major player save one has gone bankrupt at least once, and all of them save that one within the space of a few years. They tried the 717s and quickly decided not to keep them. I would say that they had their reasons, and based on their track record they must have been good ones. But since you obviously know better, why don’t you apply to be their CEO?


WN goes even further, it decided that using travel agents or sites like Orbitz meant giving away significant fees to sell tickets, also to fit in their computers had to have a certain structure. So to fly SWA one must buy tickets at southwest.com. They sell one ways that can be paired up, they are great for multi-city itineraries, they don't connect with other airlines, they don't often offer the lowest fares but are usually decent fares for the destination. Most importantly, they are PROFITABLE, a rarity in aviation. AS migrated from having MD's and 737's to just 737's for a long time before the recent merger for similar reasons. WN also kept the same size 737 for the longest time so every flight needed 3 FA's, they are dealing now with having 3 on some and 4 on another, but as you noted there are profit advantages to fleet simplification.

As you noted WN has their niche that has worked in the very competitive US domestic market. There are graveyards of many airlines that died trying to chase the Flavor of the Month new airline concept. Had WN not stayed in their space, they could have died along with so many other airlines.
 
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zeke
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:31 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Same type certificate; but aren't the 737NG & 737MAX on 2 different pilot ratings? Wasn't it the whole issue that pushed WN to retire the 737Classic as the FAA refused to have pilots certified on all 3 types?


In the USA, all 737s are covered by a single pilot type rating “B-737”. Pilots undergo differences training between variants.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
airzona11
Posts: 1784
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:42 pm

toltommy wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
BA, B6, SK, LH, AF, Easyjet, LATAM, AS, Spirit, Allegiant, KLM, the list goes on and on, all of these fleets are almost solely 737 or A320.


Um....

BA - Flies both Boeing and Airbus (currently has orders for both)
B6 - Flies Embraer and Airbus, recently chose between Airbus (Bombardier) and Embraer for replacement aircraft
SK - Currently flies both Boeing and Airbus. Yes moving to all Airbus, but Boeing was considered
LH - Currently flies both Boeing and Airbus (currently has orders for both)
AF - Currently flies both Boeing and Airbus (currently has orders for both)
Easyjet - Flies Airbus as a result of a competitive bid process where the A320 was selected over the 737
LATAM - Currently flies both Boeing and Airbus (currently has orders for both)
AS - Currently flies both Boeing and Airbus. Yes "Proudly all Boeing", but I would say that Airbus would be invited to participate in future RFP
Spirit - Currently all Airbus. Result of a competitive bid process.
Allegiant - Transitioning to all Airbus fleet, as result of competitive bid process
KLM - Currently flies both Boeing and Airbus (currently has orders for both)

There's one thin each airline you listed has with both Boeing and Airbus. A business relationship. Both companies know their product will be considered by each one of those carriers. Southwest doesn't have that. Airbus know they really have next to no chance of selling planes to Southwest. Boeing knows Southwest is buying 737s. Does Boeing give WN a good deal? Of course. Would Boeing be more agressive in their pricing for Southwest if they thought Southwest might actually buy an Airbus? No doubt they would. So its safe to say Southwest gives up a cost advantage. Their decision to rely on 2 different 737 fleet types (remember, both the NG and MAX are different fleet types on their certificate) means they sacrifice some of the cost savings a mixed fleet (of their total size) could bring.


WN has a narrowbody fleet that is only 737s. BA/AF/LATAM/Spirit/AF/Allegiant/LH,SK,KLM, etc only operate narrowbodies that are A320 OR 737s, same as WN. They are not diversified. UA/AA/DL are diversified, others are as well, but in smaller proportions.

If WN is at risk bc of the 737, so is every major airline I listed above faces the same risk.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5734
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Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:30 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:

WN goes even further, it decided that using travel agents or sites like Orbitz meant giving away significant fees to sell tickets, also to fit in their computers had to have a certain structure. So to fly SWA one must buy tickets at southwest.com. They sell one ways that can be paired up, they are great for multi-city itineraries, they don't connect with other airlines, they don't often offer the lowest fares but are usually decent fares for the destination. Most importantly, they are PROFITABLE, a rarity in aviation. AS migrated from having MD's and 737's to just 737's for a long time before the recent merger for similar reasons. WN also kept the same size 737 for the longest time so every flight needed 3 FA's, they are dealing now with having 3 on some and 4 on another, but as you noted there are profit advantages to fleet simplification.

As you noted WN has their niche that has worked in the very competitive US domestic market. There are graveyards of many airlines that died trying to chase the Flavor of the Month new airline concept. Had WN not stayed in their space, they could have died along with so many other airlines.


Well someone gets it. I ain't knocking Southwest, they are my go-to airline after DL. I've had a couple of semi-negative experiences on them but nothing to rave that "I'LL NEVER FLY WN AGAIN!". And they do what they do well. BUT: The point of the thread is WN limiting their options by operating the 737 and ONLY the 737 in any of it's variants? YES! But that is their choice.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
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Veigar
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:37 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
Busyboy2 wrote:

Gee, flying full airplanes around with happy customers, with happy highly paid employees who love their jobs and earn the company buckets of money sounds completely terrible.... Take your pessimism elsewhere.


Do you know the difference between pessimism and realism? Apparently not.


So you think it's "realism" that Southwest is a terrible airline with unhappy customers, underpaid employees who hate their jobs and earn the company crap profits as well?

His post is a bit hyperbolic, though.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2529
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:07 am

WayexTDI wrote:
zeke wrote:
LDRA wrote:
But the title is not true at all. Southwest operates two types, 737NG and 737Max


They are the same type, however different variants. Type refers to the type certificate, the 737NG and 737Max are share the same type certificate.

Same type certificate; but aren't the 737NG & 737MAX on 2 different pilot ratings? Wasn't it the whole issue that pushed WN to retire the 737Classic as the FAA refused to have pilots certified on all 3 types?


No, same type rating. However, the FAA did not want pilots flying all three at the same time. It was a maximum of two variants. so it would be either classic & ng or ng & max. That would require WN to split their pilot pool into two. They were uninterested in doing that on top of that there were FAA mandated upgrades for the classics that turned WN off as well. In hindsight, however, if the classics (at least some) were still operating it would have definitely softened the blow of the Max grounding.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Thoughts on Southwest’s reliance one one fleet type?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:37 am

Veigar wrote:

So you think it's "realism" that Southwest is a terrible airline with unhappy customers, underpaid employees who hate their jobs and earn the company crap profits as well?

His post is a bit hyperbolic, though.


Did you read (if you can) an effing thing I said in my statements on this topic????
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