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Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:53 pm
by Ytraveller
I noticed that neither MS nor RJ overfly Israel on their AMM-CAI flights.........why is that? Both Egypt and Jordan recognize Israel's sovereignty.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#1ffc8e50

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:05 pm
by k89
I would assume that the reason is that MS and RJ carry Arab passengers onboard from countries that don't recognize Israel, so maybe they want to avoid an diversion to TLV. Other than that I honestly don't know.

EgyptAir made Air Sinai to fly to TLV, but otherwise they just choose not to fly over Israel airspace.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:08 pm
by UAEflyer
Israel doesn’t allow such flight, although both countries (Jordan & Egypt) considered allies to Israel, they have a very tough airspace restrictions. Their airspace entirely controlled by the army.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:48 pm
by yowza
UAEflyer wrote:
Israel doesn’t allow such flight, although both countries (Jordan & Egypt) considered allies to Israel, they have a very tough airspace restrictions. Their airspace entirely controlled by the army.

Seems kind of odd given that RJ serves TLV.

YOWza

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:50 pm
by anshabhi
A constant risk of getting stuck between Hamas rockets and Iron Dome always exists in Israel. Makes sense to avoid the airspace entirely

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:12 pm
by Armodeen
Don't want to risk a stray missile?

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:24 pm
by cedarjet
anshabhi wrote:
A constant risk of getting stuck between Hamas rockets and Iron Dome always exists in Israel. Makes sense to avoid the airspace entirely

The idea of Hamas having anything that could reach halfway to hitting a cruising airliner is utterly absurd.

This is strange because RJ flights from Europe come in over Israel, I watched one do so just last night on FR24. Plus RJ fly to Tel Aviv including 787s. Can we come up with a better reason than “Hamas”?

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:36 pm
by sonicruiser
cedarjet wrote:
The idea of Hamas having anything that could reach halfway to hitting a cruising airliner is utterly absurd.

This is strange because RJ flights from Europe come in over Israel, I watched one do so just last night on FR24. Plus RJ fly to Tel Aviv including 787s. Can we come up with a better reason than “Hamas”?


There is nothing absurd about it. Why risk unnecessary danger if you don't have to? An Arab airline not flying over Israel seems like a prudent and safe decision to me.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:05 pm
by peterinlisbon
anshabhi wrote:
A constant risk of getting stuck between Hamas rockets and Iron Dome always exists in Israel. Makes sense to avoid the airspace entirely


I don't think that those things get up to a high altitude. Anyway, that would be far more of a risk to aircraft that are landing at Tel Aviv, not aircraft that are only over the country for 20m.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:13 pm
by spinkid
UAEflyer wrote:
Israel doesn’t allow such flight, although both countries (Jordan & Egypt) considered allies to Israel, they have a very tough airspace restrictions. Their airspace entirely controlled by the army.


allies to Israel? Not so much. They recognize Israel's right to exist and have relations with them, that's about it.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:19 pm
by LovePrunesAnet
cedarjet wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
A constant risk of getting stuck between Hamas rockets and Iron Dome always exists in Israel. Makes sense to avoid the airspace entirely

The idea of Hamas having anything that could reach halfway to hitting a cruising airliner is utterly absurd.

This is strange because RJ flights from Europe come in over Israel, I watched one do so just last night on FR24. Plus RJ fly to Tel Aviv including 787s. Can we come up with a better reason than “Hamas”?


Israel probably doesn't want a Hamas terrorist to take over a plane and use it as a weapon from the sky within their country, a la 9/11
Perhaps they have more faith in RJ if what you say is true about RJ coming in over the country.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:35 pm
by yowza
LovePrunesAnet wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
A constant risk of getting stuck between Hamas rockets and Iron Dome always exists in Israel. Makes sense to avoid the airspace entirely

The idea of Hamas having anything that could reach halfway to hitting a cruising airliner is utterly absurd.

This is strange because RJ flights from Europe come in over Israel, I watched one do so just last night on FR24. Plus RJ fly to Tel Aviv including 787s. Can we come up with a better reason than “Hamas”?


Israel probably doesn't want a Hamas terrorist to take over a plane and use it as a weapon from the sky within their country, a la 9/11
Perhaps they have more faith in RJ if what you say is true about RJ coming in over the country.

RJ serves TLV champ.

YOWza

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:03 pm
by chicawgo
LovePrunesAnet wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
A constant risk of getting stuck between Hamas rockets and Iron Dome always exists in Israel. Makes sense to avoid the airspace entirely

The idea of Hamas having anything that could reach halfway to hitting a cruising airliner is utterly absurd.

This is strange because RJ flights from Europe come in over Israel, I watched one do so just last night on FR24. Plus RJ fly to Tel Aviv including 787s. Can we come up with a better reason than “Hamas”?


Israel probably doesn't want a Hamas terrorist to take over a plane and use it as a weapon from the sky within their country, a la 9/11
Perhaps they have more faith in RJ if what you say is true about RJ coming in over the country.


Can everyone please read the three posts that have explained that RJ FLIES TO ISRAEL. I have several Jewish friends and family that have flown RJ to TLV

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:45 am
by DrRumack
Speculation: The southern part of Israel (Negev) is used by the IAF and is closed to civilian flights. If you check to flight paths to and from Eilat, they goes pretty much north south along the border between Jordan and Israel. Those flights do not cut across the Negev.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:49 am
by AtomicGarden
Aren't Israel bound flights treated with extra security? it could also be about minimising risks, they allow TLV flights because that's unavoidable, but no more overflying than necessary.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:01 am
by ramzi
Another one of these bizarre threads. Egypt and Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, and the treaty is there because they had no choice other than to sign it. Most citizens in Egypt feel more strongly about Israel's human rights abuses than citizens of the Arab countries that don't have peace treaties, such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and others. I can't think of why a flight like AMM-CAI would fly over Israel, the passengers simply won't have it, and Egypt Air doesn't really do it. RJ is different, but they are also under duress from the closed Syrian airspace--they need to pick, fly over an active war zone, or fly over an occasionally active war zone.

As for comments about Hamas rockets: an Israeli fighter jet flying at high altitude faster than the speed of sound is the real threat here, not a stray rocket that can hardly make it off the ground. And still, neither of those are the reason a flight would avoid Israeli controlled airspace.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:22 am
by 2travel2know2
If jet-fuel was very expensive probably it'd make some sense.
CAI AMM 067° (NE) 062° (NE) 294 mi
2 segment path:
CAI TLV 057° (NE) 052° (NE) 244 mi
TLV AMM 107° (E) 102° (E) 68 mi
312 mi (+6.2%)
2 segment path:
CAI AQJ 098° (E) 094° (E) 220 mi
AQJ AMM 022° (N) 017° (N) 157 mi
376 mi (+28.0%)
HBE AMM 080° (E) 075° (E) 376 mi
2 segment path:
HBE TLV 075° (E) 070° (E) 316 mi
TLV AMM 107° (E) 102° (E) 68 mi
384 mi (+1.9%)
2 segment path:
HBE AQJ 104° (E) 100° (E) 331 mi
AQJ AMM 022° (N) 017° (N) 157 mi
487 mi (+29.4%)

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:02 am
by LH658
spinkid wrote:
UAEflyer wrote:
Israel doesn’t allow such flight, although both countries (Jordan & Egypt) considered allies to Israel, they have a very tough airspace restrictions. Their airspace entirely controlled by the army.


allies to Israel? Not so much. They recognize Israel's right to exist and have relations with them, that's about it.


Isn't Egypt about to buy oil/gas from Israel?

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:07 am
by Melbourne
Both airlines fly to Israel in one way or the other. RJ Royal Jordanian along with Royal Jordanian Cargo serve TVL from AMM while Egyptair operates to TVL from CAI via its "subsidiary" Air Sinai which operates an Egyptair Express ERJ with no titles or flag on it to TVL.

The later being a strange scenario at CAI as the flight checks-in and boards with no destination listed on departure boards etc. Also note that El Al served Cairo up until a few years back

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:54 pm
by khowaga
LH658 wrote:
spinkid wrote:
UAEflyer wrote:
Israel doesn’t allow such flight, although both countries (Jordan & Egypt) considered allies to Israel, they have a very tough airspace restrictions. Their airspace entirely controlled by the army.


allies to Israel? Not so much. They recognize Israel's right to exist and have relations with them, that's about it.


Isn't Egypt about to buy oil/gas from Israel?


Other way around. Egypt sells oil/gas to Israel. It is quite lucrative for the Egyptian government and military, both of which have substantial financial interests vested in the relationship with Israel (much of which is not publicized in country as the treaty remains quite unpopular among the Egyptian people).

As to the question at hand about why flights between AMM-CAI do not overfly Israel: the answer is that the airspace over the Negev is heavily restricted, and the airspace over northern Sinai--i.e., the part of Egypt that borders most of Israel--has been closed to overflight since 2015 (https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you ... -2017-09r2 ).

If you look at a map, you'll see that the most direct route between AMM and CAI goes directly over northern Sinai. Flights that go between AMM and CAI would either have to go out over Israel and the Mediterranean (Gaza airspace also being closed), and make landfall over the Nile Delta, or do what they do currently and head down toward Aqaba and enter Egyptian airspace over southern Sinai. The second routing is actually a bit shorter.

Now, if this weren't the case, we should also note that RJ is the only Arab carrier that has permission to overfly Israel; MS does not (having never served Israel with its own metal--as others pointed out,there is a paper subsidiary named "Air Sinai" that has always operated the flights on MS's behalf). So, even at the best of times only one of the two could actually do so.

Hence, what you're seeing is the best available routing given the NOTAM and airspace restrictions.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:53 pm
by Armodeen
ramzi wrote:

As for comments about Hamas rockets: an Israeli fighter jet flying at high altitude faster than the speed of sound is the real threat here, not a stray rocket that can hardly make it off the ground. And still, neither of those are the reason a flight would avoid Israeli controlled airspace.


In case it wasn't clear, I was referring to an errant Israeli missile as the danger.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:54 pm
by LovePrunesAnet
ramzi wrote:
As for comments about Hamas rockets: an Israeli fighter jet flying at high altitude faster than the speed of sound is the real threat here, not a stray rocket that can hardly make it off the ground. And still, neither of those are the reason a flight would avoid Israeli controlled airspace.


well there is certainly more air power in control of the Israeli air force vs Hamas, but the air force doesn't just decide to bomb and terrorize people indiscriminately and to cause fear and panic, and then use women and children as shields after launching attacks like Hamas does. So your comparison really doesn't matter. Read the charter of the terrorist organization Hamas and you'll understand why Israel has to be so protective of their airspace. When most of your neighbors want you wiped from the face of the Earth, and you're merely trying to get them to acknowledge your right to even exist , I completely agree with their security measures. Hatred and bullying has no place. latest info from bloomberg news about the group is here https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/hamas

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:39 am
by b747400erf
ramzi wrote:
Another one of these bizarre threads. Egypt and Jordan have a peace treaty with Israel, and the treaty is there because they had no choice other than to sign it. Most citizens in Egypt feel more strongly about Israel's human rights abuses than citizens of the Arab countries that don't have peace treaties, such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and others. I can't think of why a flight like AMM-CAI would fly over Israel, the passengers simply won't have it, and Egypt Air doesn't really do it. RJ is different, but they are also under duress from the closed Syrian airspace--they need to pick, fly over an active war zone, or fly over an occasionally active war zone.

As for comments about Hamas rockets: an Israeli fighter jet flying at high altitude faster than the speed of sound is the real threat here, not a stray rocket that can hardly make it off the ground. And still, neither of those are the reason a flight would avoid Israeli controlled airspace.

The human rights issue they are concerned with is the idea of Jews having a country and that offends them.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:10 am
by Clipper101
It is only an hour flight, how much do you reckon you would save? 20 minutes climbing & 20 minutes in descent, that should leave another 20 minutes in cruise; there is hardly a time to take your meal !

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:19 am
by peterinlisbon
The funny thing is that if I look online to book Cairo-Tel Aviv it shows me a connection on the RJ flight which goes around Israel to avoid it, then a flight from Amman to Tel Aviv. The price is very high - £180. I did actually do this journey once by land via Dahab and I asked the Israelis not to put a stamp in my passport and they agreed but they told me that as I had an exit stamp from the Egyptian side, this wouldn't help me. The other option would be to go via Cyprus.

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:32 am
by ramzi
Image

Re: Why does AMM-CAI not overfly Israel

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:50 pm
by Ytraveller
DrRumack wrote:
Speculation: The southern part of Israel (Negev) is used by the IAF and is closed to civilian flights. If you check to flight paths to and from Eilat, they goes pretty much north south along the border between Jordan and Israel. Those flights do not cut across the Negev.

khowaga wrote:
Other way around. Egypt sells oil/gas to Israel. It is quite lucrative for the Egyptian government and military, both of which have substantial financial interests vested in the relationship with Israel (much of which is not publicized in country as the treaty remains quite unpopular among the Egyptian people).

As to the question at hand about why flights between AMM-CAI do not overfly Israel: the answer is that the airspace over the Negev is heavily restricted, and the airspace over northern Sinai--i.e., the part of Egypt that borders most of Israel--has been closed to overflight since 2015 (https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you ... -2017-09r2 ).

If you look at a map, you'll see that the most direct route between AMM and CAI goes directly over northern Sinai. Flights that go between AMM and CAI would either have to go out over Israel and the Mediterranean (Gaza airspace also being closed), and make landfall over the Nile Delta, or do what they do currently and head down toward Aqaba and enter Egyptian airspace over southern Sinai. The second routing is actually a bit shorter.

Now, if this weren't the case, we should also note that RJ is the only Arab carrier that has permission to overfly Israel; MS does not (having never served Israel with its own metal--as others pointed out,there is a paper subsidiary named "Air Sinai" that has always operated the flights on MS's behalf). So, even at the best of times only one of the two could actually do so.

Hence, what you're seeing is the best available routing given the NOTAM and airspace restrictions.

This makes sense, thank you. I'd also been wondering about flights between TLV and Eilat and how they stick so closely to the border with Jordan when it seems like they could easily fly right over the Negev.