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AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:07 pm
by LAXintl
AA and LATAM are back with a new application for approval of antitrust authority and for a metal-neutral revenue JV covering 6 markets - Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Paraguay, Peru, and Uruguay from the U.S.

Airlines previously filed a JV in 2016 and pulled it earlier this year. The application was approved by all foreign governments except in Chile faced objection from competition authorities that required mitigations related to capacity, pricing, and frequent flier programs.

Carriers say the updated JV will help integrate their complementary route networks, expanding connectivity across 429 new codeshare segments.


OST-2019-0054

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Lets see how it goes this time.
Carriers continue to argue against any need of any carve-outs in markets like MIA-SCL claiming they are really competing against 6 other carriers on the route even though they are the sole nonstop operator and hold ~80% of the market. :sarcastic:

Re: AA-LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:09 pm
by Detroit313
Link?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 pm
by gatibosgru
Just get UA and AD to expand their cooperation into a JV and we're all covered.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:34 pm
by FSDan
Has anything changed with this application compared to the last one, or are they just hoping for more leniency under a different administration?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:19 pm
by FSDan
As best I can tell, here's a list of the current services on AA and LA to the covered countries for this summer:

LAX-LIM (LA)
LAX-SCL (LA)
LAX-GRU (AA)
DFW-BOG (AA)
DFW-LIM (AA)
DFW-SCL (AA)
DFW-GRU(AA)
MIA-BAQ (AA)
MIA-CTG (AA)
MIA-MDE (AA)
MIA-PEI (AA)
MIA-BOG (AA, LA)
MIA-CLO (AA)
MIA-LIM (AA, LA)
MIA-SCL (AA, LA)
MIA-MVD (AA)
MIA-GRU (AA, LA)
MIA-GIG (AA)
MIA-BSB (AA)
MIA-SSA (LA)
MIA-REC (LA)
MIA-FOR (LA)
MIA-BEL (LA)
MIA-MAO (AA, LA)
MCO-LIM (LA)
MCO-GRU (LA)
JFK-LIM (LA)
JFK-SCL (LA)
JFK-GRU (AA, LA)
BOS-GRU (LA)


And all other airlines flying between the U.S. and those countries:

LAX-BOG (AV)
IAH-BOG (UA)
IAH-LIM (UA)
IAH-SCL (UA)
IAH-GRU (UA)
IAH-GIG (UA)
ORD-GRU (UA)
MIA-SMR (FC)
MIA-BAQ (AV)
MIA-CTG (AV)
MIA-MDE (AV, FC)
MIA-BOG (AV)
MIA-CLO (AV)
MIA-LIM (AV)
MIA-BSB (G3)
MIA-FOR (G3)
FLL-CTG (B6, NK)
FLL-MDE (B6, NK)
FLL-AXM (NK)
FLL-BOG (B6, NK, AV)
FLL-CLO (NK)
FLL-LIM (B6, NK)
FLL-VCP (AD)
FLL-REC (AD)
FLL-BEL (AD)
MCO-CTG (NK)
MCO-MDE (NK)
MCO-BOG (B6, NK, AV)
MCO-VCP (AD)
MCO-CNF (AD)
MCO-BSB (G3)
MCO-REC (AD)
MCO-FOR (G3)
ATL-CTG (DL)
ATL-BOG (DL)
ATL-LIM (DL)
ATL-SCL (DL)
ATL-GRU (DL)
ATL-GIG (DL)
IAD-BOG (AV)
IAD-GRU (UA)
EWR-BOG (UA)
EWR-LIM (UA)
EWR-GRU (UA)
JFK-CTG (B6)
JFK-MDE-CLO (AV)
JFK-BOG (AV)
JFK-GRU (DL)

Seems like there shouldn't be too much competitive concern regarding Colombia given the amount of competition there, and Brazil and Peru have pretty decent options besides AA/LA (though AA/LA would still be handily ahead of the competition in those markets). The concern comes with Chile, where AA+LA would dominate the nonstop market with 75+% of capacity.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:31 pm
by dcajet
FSDan wrote:
Has anything changed with this application compared to the last one, or are they just hoping for more leniency under a different administration?


The re-application targets mainly Chile's Competition Defense Tribunal, body that had issues last year with the previous application and requested changes. LATAM found those unacceptable and cancelled the filing.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:01 am
by janders
What has changed in the competitive landscape to make this more palatable today?

Seems to me, Chile as their authorities rightfully noted would be especially susceptible to market domination by AA/LATAM JV and hurt consumer choice and the competitive landscape.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:35 am
by DL747400
Doesn't look like much of any substance has changed, so I suspect the same voices of protest will reemerge with this re-filing. AA-LATAM should never be permitted to have an ATI-immunized JV in markets which are not Open Skies and are thus closed to additional competitors.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:36 am
by winginit
AA/LATAM must have been genuinely terrified of what the Chilean regulatory authorities were going to come back with after catching some wind of a potential outcome if they were willing to reset the clock on this one.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:26 pm
by tkoenig95
One of the biggest points is this JV opening the ability for mid-size markets to be connected. For instance, MIA-CNF, REC or GRU-AUS, SJO. What are the odds of these routes actually opening though? Other JV partners have touted the same perks but not as much has come to fruition.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:29 pm
by OB1504
tkoenig95 wrote:
One of the biggest points is this JV opening the ability for mid-size markets to be connected. For instance, MIA-CNF, REC or GRU-AUS, SJO. What are the odds of these routes actually opening though? Other JV partners have touted the same perks but not as much has come to fruition.


Given that AA recently dropped MIA-CNF/REC, I wouldn’t expect those particular routes to come back anytime soon.

Did you mean ASU?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:16 pm
by dcajet
winginit wrote:
AA/LATAM must have been genuinely terrified of what the Chilean regulatory authorities were going to come back with after catching some wind of a potential outcome if they were willing to reset the clock on this one.


Chile's regulators did come back with a number of requests for changes in capacity, frequent flyer programs and pricing. Keep in mind that there is also a proposed JV for BA and IB with LATAM, so it would have affected them not only with AA. Let's see how they fare this time around.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:40 pm
by janders
DL747400 wrote:
Doesn't look like much of any substance has changed, so I suspect the same voices of protest will reemerge with this re-filing. AA-LATAM should never be permitted to have an ATI-immunized JV in markets which are not Open Skies and are thus closed to additional competitors.


All the countries this proposed JV covers are open-skies already.

https://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ata/267129.htm

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:59 pm
by LAXintl
For those curious about what Chile asked of AA/IAG/LATAM to approve their ATI see below paraphrased terms.


o Carriers must maintain a minimum level of nonstop seat capacity on routes from SCL to MAD and MIA
o Carriers must commit to future increases in seat capacity on other US and Europeans services,
o Carriers must enter into mandatory special prorate agreements (SPAs) with any new entrants operating into SCL from MIA and MAD.
o Carriers agree to extend frequent flyer participation to new entrants serving SCL from MAD and MIA
o JBA valid for 5-years and will be reviewed again to determine public benefits and market competition.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:56 pm
by diverdave
LAXintl wrote:
Carriers continue to argue against any need of any carve-outs in markets like MIA-SCL claiming they are really competing against 6 other carriers on the route even though they are the sole nonstop operator and hold ~80% of the market. :sarcastic:


Agreed - I'm hard pressed to see the market benefit of allowing the largest US carrier to South America to form a JV with anybody......

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:41 pm
by Ishrion
OB1504 wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
One of the biggest points is this JV opening the ability for mid-size markets to be connected. For instance, MIA-CNF, REC or GRU-AUS, SJO. What are the odds of these routes actually opening though? Other JV partners have touted the same perks but not as much has come to fruition.


Given that AA recently dropped MIA-CNF/REC, I wouldn’t expect those particular routes to come back anytime soon.

Did you mean ASU?


Pretty sure he means Sao Paulo to Austin
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-457245/

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:43 am
by DL747400
janders wrote:
All the countries this proposed JV covers are open-skies already.

https://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ata/267129.htm


Thanks for clarifying! :checkmark:

Perhaps someone can clarify what barriers exist for new entrants in Paraguay and Uruguay?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:24 am
by LAXintl
Some interesting market share information per the application.

Top connecting Passenger Share Airports among Central/South America Hubs for U.S. - South America traffic
1. PTY - 1,675,702 - 30.1%
2, GRU - 1,352,768 - 24.3
3. BOG - 651,999 - 11.7%
4. LIM - 508,611 - 9.1%
5. SCL - 345,822 - 6.2%

Miami–São Paulo Passenger Shares
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 75.4
2. AV - 7.8%
3. CM - 6.0%
4. DL - 3.1%
5. O6 - 2.2%

New York–São Paulo Passenger Shares
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 48.1%
2.DL - 19.3%
3. UA - 16.1%
4. CM - 6.0%
5. AV - 3.8%

Miami-Santiago Passenge Share
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 78.9%
2. Avianca - 9.5%
3. CM - 3.4%
4. AM - 3.4%
5. DL - 2.1%

Miami-Bogota Passenger Share
1. AV - 42.5%
2. Combined AA/LATAM - 36.3%
3. B6 - 14.1%
4. CM - 5.5%
5. AM - 1%

Miami-Lima Passenger Share
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 57.1%
2. AV - 21.5%
3. B6 - 9.7%
4. CM - 5.4%
5. NK - 3.2%

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Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:54 am
by LAXintl
And a few bits more

Total U.S-Brazil Passenger Share
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 45.1%
2. DL - 17.6%
3. UA - 13.2%
4. CM - 9.6%
5. AD - 7.0%

Total U.S-Chile Passenger Share
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 64.6%
2. DL - 12.3%
3. UA - 8.6%
4. AM - 4.8%
5. AV - 4.4%

Total U.S-Colombia Passenger Share
1. AV - 34.9%
2. Combined AA/LATAM - 21.4%
3, CM - 12.5%
4. B6 - 11%
5. UA - 7.7%

Total U.S-Peru Passenger Share
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 49.7%
2. AV - 10.1%
3. UA - 9.8%
4. DL - 8.8%
5. CM - 7.7%

Total U.S-Paraguay Passenger Share
1. CM - 48.2%
2. Combined AA/LATAM - 34.7%
3. AV - 8.1%
4. AR - 2.1%

Total U.S-Uruguay Passenger Share
1. Combined AA/LATAM - 77.0%
2. CM - 13.5%
3. AV - 6.6%
4. AR - 1%

=

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:43 am
by gatibosgru
FSDan wrote:
As best I can tell, here's a list of the current services on AA and LA to the covered countries for this summer:

LAX-LIM (LA)
LAX-SCL (LA)
LAX-GRU (AA)
DFW-BOG (AA)
DFW-LIM (AA)
DFW-SCL (AA)
DFW-GRU(AA)
MIA-BAQ (AA)
MIA-CTG (AA)
MIA-MDE (AA)
MIA-PEI (AA)
MIA-BOG (AA, LA)
MIA-CLO (AA)
MIA-LIM (AA, LA)
MIA-SCL (AA, LA)
MIA-MVD (AA)
MIA-GRU (AA, LA)
MIA-GIG (AA)
MIA-BSB (AA)
MIA-SSA (LA)
MIA-REC (LA)
MIA-FOR (LA)
MIA-BEL (LA)
MIA-MAO (AA, LA)
MCO-LIM (LA)
MCO-GRU (LA)
JFK-LIM (LA)
JFK-SCL (LA)
JFK-GRU (AA, LA)
BOS-GRU (LA)


And all other airlines flying between the U.S. and those countries:

LAX-BOG (AV)
IAH-BOG (UA)
IAH-LIM (UA)
IAH-SCL (UA)
IAH-GRU (UA)
IAH-GIG (UA)
ORD-GRU (UA)
MIA-SMR (FC)
MIA-BAQ (AV)
MIA-CTG (AV)
MIA-MDE (AV, FC)
MIA-BOG (AV)
MIA-CLO (AV)
MIA-LIM (AV)
MIA-BSB (G3)
MIA-FOR (G3)
FLL-CTG (B6, NK)
FLL-MDE (B6, NK)
FLL-AXM (NK)
FLL-BOG (B6, NK, AV)
FLL-CLO (NK)
FLL-LIM (B6, NK)
FLL-VCP (AD)
FLL-REC (AD)
FLL-BEL (AD)
MCO-CTG (NK)
MCO-MDE (NK)
MCO-BOG (B6, NK, AV)
MCO-VCP (AD)
MCO-CNF (AD)
MCO-BSB (G3)
MCO-REC (AD)
MCO-FOR (G3)
ATL-CTG (DL)
ATL-BOG (DL)
ATL-LIM (DL)
ATL-SCL (DL)
ATL-GRU (DL)
ATL-GIG (DL)
IAD-BOG (AV)
IAD-GRU (UA)
EWR-BOG (UA)
EWR-LIM (UA)
EWR-GRU (UA)
JFK-CTG (B6)
JFK-MDE-CLO (AV)
JFK-BOG (AV)
JFK-GRU (DL)

Seems like there shouldn't be too much competitive concern regarding Colombia given the amount of competition there, and Brazil and Peru have pretty decent options besides AA/LA (though AA/LA would still be handily ahead of the competition in those markets). The concern comes with Chile, where AA+LA would dominate the nonstop market with 75+% of capacity.


Crazy how there's virtually no lcc competition between Brazil (or deep South America at that) and the US

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:42 pm
by janders
LAXintl thank you for posting the stats.

The market concentration of AA/LATAM in many markets is certainly very high. Not sure how one can argue it won't impede competition.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:04 pm
by solracfunk14
tkoenig95 wrote:
One of the biggest points is this JV opening the ability for mid-size markets to be connected. For instance, MIA-CNF, REC or GRU-AUS, SJO. What are the odds of these routes actually opening though? Other JV partners have touted the same perks but not as much has come to fruition.



CNF is my hometown/airport and have lived for a good while in Cali. No way that they will open SJC-GRU flights. Most of the brazilian community in the Bay Area live closer to the SFO.

Also LAX itself don't have a demand to a weekly flight and AA knows that. Putting a flight to NorCal don't make sense, if was SFO maybe but it's not an AA hub and back in the days Varig flew there but have a bigger presence on the LAX.

I also bet for MIA-CNF. They lost plenty of customers when Azul started CNF-MCO and Avianca Brazil started GRU-MIA/JFK (connecting with CNF-GRU). Both of airliners connect with United Airlines and can delivery the customers to Boston.

But the main reason was the equipment, I remember that once a 767 had a electrical failure and them another 767 came to get the pax and also had a failure. Finally a third 767 came by and make the flight. The failures leading to delays happened almost once a month and make the newspaper headlines on the following day.

So Azul and Avianca came by with more younger a/c offering AVOD, brand new interiors and less interruptions. So the people switched. AA last month of the route was August of last year with a 55% load factor. If they want to go back, they must sent the 787-8.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:58 pm
by dcajet
solracfunk14 wrote:
CNF is my hometown/airport and have lived for a good while in Cali. No way that they will open SJC-GRU flights. Most of the brazilian community in the Bay Area live closer to the SFO.

Also LAX itself don't have a demand to a weekly flight and AA knows that. Putting a flight to NorCal don't make sense, if was SFO maybe but it's not an AA hub and back in the days Varig flew there but have a bigger presence on the LAX.

I also bet for MIA-CNF. They lost plenty of customers when Azul started CNF-MCO and Avianca Brazil started GRU-MIA/JFK (connecting with CNF-GRU). Both of airliners connect with United Airlines and can delivery the customers to Boston.

But the main reason was the equipment, I remember that once a 767 had a electrical failure and them another 767 came to get the pax and also had a failure. Finally a third 767 came by and make the flight. The failures leading to delays happened almost once a month and make the newspaper headlines on the following day.

So Azul and Avianca came by with more younger a/c offering AVOD, brand new interiors and less interruptions. So the people switched. AA last month of the route was August of last year with a 55% load factor. If they want to go back, they must sent the 787-8.


Well, we know what happened to Avianca Brazil. It is in the process of becoming a memory. They expanded too quickly at a time when GOL and LATAM were reducing capacity and the Brazilian economy could not support Avianca's expansion.

AA 787 (8 &9) fleet is maxed out at the moment and until they start receiving the next batch they have ordered - a good 2 years away; any new 787 route comes at the expense of another route (like we saw on LAX-GRU; cut to 4x w in order to start LAX-EZE 3x w). The 767 fleet is decreasing ever so slowly and the 767 used on the MIA-CNF went to the likes of MIA-COR, PHL-PRG and other cities in Europe from the PHL hub.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:57 am
by grbauc
dcajet wrote:
solracfunk14 wrote:
CNF is my hometown/airport and have lived for a good while in Cali. No way that they will open SJC-GRU flights. Most of the brazilian community in the Bay Area live closer to the SFO.

Also LAX itself don't have a demand to a weekly flight and AA knows that. Putting a flight to NorCal don't make sense, if was SFO maybe but it's not an AA hub and back in the days Varig flew there but have a bigger presence on the LAX.

I also bet for MIA-CNF. They lost plenty of customers when Azul started CNF-MCO and Avianca Brazil started GRU-MIA/JFK (connecting with CNF-GRU). Both of airliners connect with United Airlines and can delivery the customers to Boston.

But the main reason was the equipment, I remember that once a 767 had a electrical failure and them another 767 came to get the pax and also had a failure. Finally a third 767 came by and make the flight. The failures leading to delays happened almost once a month and make the newspaper headlines on the following day.

So Azul and Avianca came by with more younger a/c offering AVOD, brand new interiors and less interruptions. So the people switched. AA last month of the route was August of last year with a 55% load factor. If they want to go back, they must sent the 787-8.


Well, we know what happened to Avianca Brazil. It is in the process of becoming a memory. They expanded too quickly at a time when GOL and LATAM were reducing capacity and the Brazilian economy could not support Avianca's expansion.

AA 787 (8 &9) fleet is maxed out at the moment and until they start receiving the next batch they have ordered - a good 2 years away; any new 787 route comes at the expense of another route (like we saw on LAX-GRU; cut to 4x w in order to start LAX-EZE 3x w). The 767 fleet is decreasing ever so slowly and the 767 used on the MIA-CNF went to the likes of MIA-COR, PHL-PRG and other cities in Europe from the PHL hub.


Not to happy with the delayed 787s either. The lack of updating the 767s and the delayed 787s is a frugal move that is costly. 767s already too delayed pron. as far as I can tell Delta doesn’t seem to have that issue so it means it’s a investment in the 767 issue has far has I can tell.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:03 am
by UpNAWAy
AA B767 reliability is at an all time high for AA with that fleet. So as usual A.nets misleading.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:12 am
by Fargo
Not to change the subject, but what is the status of the AA/QF jv? Wouldn’t that be approved before this?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:13 am
by Ishrion
Fargo wrote:
Not to change the subject, but what is the status of the AA/QF jv? Wouldn’t that be approved before this?


Very likely to be approved before AA/LATAM. Last I heard, it was "at the beginning of 2019" although we're through Q1. I've been wondering this as well. JonNYC says it's very "imminent"

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:14 am
by MAH4546
OB1504 wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
One of the biggest points is this JV opening the ability for mid-size markets to be connected. For instance, MIA-CNF, REC or GRU-AUS, SJO. What are the odds of these routes actually opening though? Other JV partners have touted the same perks but not as much has come to fruition.


Given that AA recently dropped MIA-CNF/REC, I wouldn’t expect those particular routes to come back anytime soon.

Did you mean ASU?


It’s only a matter of time before MIACNF resumes. Huge loca market.

MIAREC is already flown by LAN.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:15 am
by wenders825
AUS maybe but there's no way LATAM is going to launch GRU-SJC instead of SFO, right?? no one serves GRU-SFO, that route is literally cut out for them...

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:21 pm
by incitatus
gatibosgru wrote:

Crazy how there's virtually no lcc competition between Brazil (or deep South America at that) and the US


There is. It is called Copa. The fact their hub is in a third country is a mere accident.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:06 pm
by MIflyer12
UpNAWAy wrote:
AA B767 reliability is at an all time high for AA with that fleet. So as usual A.nets misleading.


Does that mean it's any good? How does it compare to DL, UA or ANA 767 reliability?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:12 pm
by MIflyer12
incitatus wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

Crazy how there's virtually no lcc competition between Brazil (or deep South America at that) and the US


There is. It is called Copa. The fact their hub is in a third country is a mere accident.


What are the long-haul U.S. or deep S America LCCs? :)

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:07 pm
by OB1504
incitatus wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

Crazy how there's virtually no lcc competition between Brazil (or deep South America at that) and the US


There is. It is called Copa. The fact their hub is in a third country is a mere accident.


Copa is a full service airline, not an LCC.

Isn’t GOL an LCC? They flew to MIA and MCO from BSB and FOR, but the 737 MAX grounding forced them to add a stop in PUJ.

What is Azul considered?

MIflyer12 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
AA B767 reliability is at an all time high for AA with that fleet. So as usual A.nets misleading.


Does that mean it's any good? How does it compare to DL, UA or ANA 767 reliability?


“All time high” for AA isn’t a very high bar, but I’ve definitely noticed an improvement.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:56 pm
by Detroit313
Good luck.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:02 pm
by jbs2886
https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0054-0001

Interesting how much the application focused on Copa's PTY hub.

Also, kind of sloppy to to keep writing "Delta Airlines" - come on, AA, you know better.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:28 pm
by solracfunk14
MAH4546 wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
One of the biggest points is this JV opening the ability for mid-size markets to be connected. For instance, MIA-CNF, REC or GRU-AUS, SJO. What are the odds of these routes actually opening though? Other JV partners have touted the same perks but not as much has come to fruition.


Given that AA recently dropped MIA-CNF/REC, I wouldn’t expect those particular routes to come back anytime soon.

Did you mean ASU?


It’s only a matter of time before MIACNF resumes. Huge loca market.

MIAREC is already flown by LAN.


I truly don't see that, AA would have to make a marketing campaign, if will be the same 767, the people will not fly it since they have Azul connecting with UA and JB. And like DCAJET posted, they are retiring the 767 and focus them on PHL and another routes.

Maybe in 2 years with more 787, but not a short-term.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:34 pm
by solracfunk14
OB1504 wrote:
incitatus wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:

Crazy how there's virtually no lcc competition between Brazil (or deep South America at that) and the US


There is. It is called Copa. The fact their hub is in a third country is a mere accident.


Copa is a full service airline, not an LCC.

Isn’t GOL an LCC? They flew to MIA and MCO from BSB and FOR, but the 737 MAX grounding forced them to add a stop in PUJ.

What is Azul considered?

MIflyer12 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
AA B767 reliability is at an all time high for AA with that fleet. So as usual A.nets misleading.


Does that mean it's any good? How does it compare to DL, UA or ANA 767 reliability?


“All time high” for AA isn’t a very high bar, but I’ve definitely noticed an improvement.



Copa run their with a lot of LCC points, but more like mixed. They use just the 737 to reduce costs and use a configuration to make reliable, so they can offer a good price as "compensation" of the stop (long) at PTY. But for instance they don't charge for checked baggage (in other hand Norwegian and JetSmart does it).

Azul works somehow, they save money with cheap snacks (chips and cookies) and charge for everything. But since the brazilian main cities are down on south, no airplane of the american ULCCs can reach them (by now).

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm
by LAXintl
Chilean National economic prosecutor's office (FNE), National Corporation of Consumers and Users of Chile (Conadecus), and Association of Chilean Tourism Companies (Achet), were in court yesterday to argue against the 3-way AA-IAG-LATAM Joint Business Agreement (JBA).

While companies argue the airline's JBA will offer improvements to customers, including greater connectivity, lower fares and uninterrupted travel experience across airlines, the others argued that the unilateral coordination of pricing, routes, and schedules presents too large a risks based on carrier market concentration.

https://chocale.cl/2019/04/latam-americ ... e-suprema/
https://www.latercera.com/pulso/noticia ... na/616020/

=

If the anti-competitive arguments were upheld, this would present difficulties for AA-LATAM in their updated application.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:22 am
by janders
I can't see AA/LATAM getting approved without conditions as previously proposed. As you can see Chile, in particular, is ready to make its concerns well know and impose restrictions on a deal.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:07 am
by LAXintl
A bit of an update.

On LATAMs earning call last week SVP Commercial Roberto Alvo was asked about the JBA.

Basically, he stated they first expect to hear back from the Chilean Supreme Court in "next few months." Assuming court clears the JBA then they expect the DOT to take about 1-year to complete its reviews.

He was also asked if they expected further antitrust scrutiny in Brazil following the redistribution of former Avianca Brasil held slots and market share shifts. He said so far they don't believe it will be an issue.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:27 pm
by mercure1
So what happens with remainder of the JV if Chile rejects the venture entirely or atleast enforces strict remedies?

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:10 pm
by LAXintl
Well the supreme court case in Chile will either have the entire JBA thrown out as consumer groups want, or in best case it can proceed with the remedies that the government proposed.
Its unknown however if the airlines will accept the remedies being imposed. Their only official statement was that they are reviewing things.
Lets see...

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:56 pm
by UPlog
Seems, either way, the JBA will be crippled to some degree.
Even if the court allows it to proceed, the airlines will have to make some pretty big concessions as listed in Reply #14.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:32 pm
by dcajet
Chile's Supreme Court rejected LATAM's request of JBA with both American and IAG.

https://www.cronista.com/apertura-negoc ... -0010.html

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:49 pm
by RAGAZZO777
Of course it was rejected. The only carriers on the MIA-SCL route are both American and LATAM. And that's just one reason why it was rejected.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:55 pm
by N809FR
Glad to see they rejected it. Hope it sets a new trend going forward.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:56 am
by janders
There we are. Lets see how airlines respond. Do they continue the JBA with a Chile carve out? Seems a little odd with LATAM Group HQ in Chile.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 5:20 am
by UPlog
Get the popcorn out.

Yes wonder what AA-LATAM do now.

I have to admit the Chilean court decision is impressive albeit too rare. Way too many nations have allowed airline JVs to grow like wild weeds at the expense of competition and consumers.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 1:55 pm
by pipeafcr
Per a Routers article, LATAM may still seek to pursue the agreement between its subsidiaries in Brazil, Colombia and Uruguay as those are the countries where the JV was approved.

Re: AA - LATAM reapply for ATI JV

Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 3:08 pm
by LAXintl
LATAM statement:

"After more than two years and a thorough evaluation by the competent technical authority, we are surprised that the Supreme Court has dismissed both the benefits for passengers and the mitigations requested by the TDLC. We are convinced that the JBAs are the future of the industry in Latin America and the world. We regret that passengers in Chile cannot benefit from this global trend.
Today, there are legal conditions to implement these agreements in several countries where they have already been approved, including Brazil, and we are evaluating these alternatives."



From AA:

"We have not had the opportunity to review the decision of the Court, but we are disappointed with the result. We believe that our joint business agreement would have brought enormous benefits to Chile."