maps4ltd
Posts: 283
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:38 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Hello JB management,

You there?


This is why you don’t announce things years before you do it

This is why you don’t state your intentions for years and years Without the planes, the certification or the slots to do it

See, you guys talk a good game...other airlines play the game

you talk... they do

That is why your stock price is in the gutter, your employees are unionizing, and your operations are dead last in on time performance

Enjoy your All Hands party.

Delta didn’t give their employees a hangar party...They gave them thousands of dollars in profit sharing instead.


They should have done like WN with Hawaii; announced shortly before the launch and take people by surprise.
Delta Gold Medallion and Southwest A-List
 
Moosefire
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:41 pm

airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
How so? B6 is going to LHR, not LGW.


How do we know that? Has there been an announcement - perhaps of purchase of LHR slots you'd like to point to?


Well when B6's CEO says things like "LHR or nothing" it makes it pretty clear doesn't it?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-453697/


Where did it say “Heathrow or nothing” in that article? I just read it twice.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:48 pm

Moosefire wrote:
airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

How do we know that? Has there been an announcement - perhaps of purchase of LHR slots you'd like to point to?


Well when B6's CEO says things like "LHR or nothing" it makes it pretty clear doesn't it?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-453697/


Where did it say “Heathrow or nothing” in that article? I just read it twice.


On the topic of LHR, I think we might find out if they can get any next week. We do know that there is this plan for more slots even aside from the 3rd runway and we know they have been busy with DOT complaining.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/heat ... -xm59jrt7j

In the New Year's teaser to employees, they indicated LHR will be airport they fly to. But maybe that's just to optimism. We will find out. I certainly think LHR is a possibility at this point. It's not set they will fly out of LGW or STN.

They should have done like WN with Hawaii; announced shortly before the launch and take people by surprise.

The fact that they haven't shows you that they are not concerned about the legacy responses. It's not a secret they've been filing motions to DOT for remedial slots. They are far more concerned about getting good slots than what DL/VS might do. In fact, I would say they should be more concerned about BA, who has the ability to add far more capacity in the market if they wanted.
 
flybry
Posts: 128
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:50 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
flybry wrote:
Is Delta now larger than United and American at Heathrow?


No, still much smaller. But DL/VS combined are bigger than UA. But still much smaller than BA/AA.



Thanks! :)
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:54 pm

It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:57 pm

Huh. I fly TATL ex-BOS on DL and partners on the reg. I don't get the LGW adds. Who are they targeting? I actually wouldn't mind going through LGW; the Gatwick Express is about 15 minutes longer than the Heathrow Express. Logically, it works fine, but I'm not sure what the busienss case is, other than making B6's life difficult and protecting (the insanely expensive) business class fares.

London is one of my least favorite work trips because the flight time is so short, I end up waking up with 4 hours of sleep max.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:58 pm

tphuang wrote:
They should have done like WN with Hawaii; announced shortly before the launch and take people by surprise.

The fact that they haven't shows you that they are not concerned about the legacy responses. It's not a secret they've been filing motions to DOT for remedial slots. They are far more concerned about getting good slots than what DL/VS might do. In fact, I would say they should be more concerned about BA, who has the ability to add far more capacity in the market if they wanted.
I'm pretty sure he is joking here, as WN did no such thing. WN to Hawaii was as painfully drawn out as B6 to Europe. That said, I'm not sure it matters. There is no way that WN to Hawaii or B6 to Europe was going to surprise anyone.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:03 pm

tphuang wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
airbazar wrote:

Well when B6's CEO says things like "LHR or nothing" it makes it pretty clear doesn't it?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-453697/


Where did it say “Heathrow or nothing” in that article? I just read it twice.


On the topic of LHR, I think we might find out if they can get any next week. We do know that there is this plan for more slots even aside from the 3rd runway and we know they have been busy with DOT complaining.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/heat ... -xm59jrt7j

In the New Year's teaser to employees, they indicated LHR will be airport they fly to. But maybe that's just to optimism. We will find out. I certainly think LHR is a possibility at this point. It's not set they will fly out of LGW or STN.

They should have done like WN with Hawaii; announced shortly before the launch and take people by surprise.

The fact that they haven't shows you that they are not concerned about the legacy responses. It's not a secret they've been filing motions to DOT for remedial slots. They are far more concerned about getting good slots than what DL/VS might do. In fact, I would say they should be more concerned about BA, who has the ability to add far more capacity in the market if they wanted.


Or...it shows you they are clueless. :banghead:
 
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airzim
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:09 pm

S0Y wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
I'm interested to see what the interior of the refurbed 764s will be like. Have they started mods yet?


34J, 20PE, 28Y+, 156Y
images in video https://news.delta.com/new-paths-across ... k-jfk-2020


Wow. That's quite a shrinkage in Delta seats in J from the current 764s. Delta will use 34 J seats which is basically the same seat they have today (40 J on the 764). No Delta One Suite.

Conversely, United will be running 46 J cabins with Polaris seats in the 767-300s from EWR to LHR.
46J, 22 PE, 43Y+, 56E.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:12 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Hello JB management,

You there?


This is why you don’t announce things years before you do it

This is why you don’t state your intentions for years and years Without the planes, the certification or the slots to do it

See, you guys talk a good game...other airlines play the game

you talk... they do

That is why your stock price is in the gutter, your employees are unionizing, and your operations are dead last in on time performance

Enjoy your All Hands party.

Delta didn’t give their employees a hangar party...They gave them thousands of dollars in profit sharing instead.


Post of the day
 
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Dieuwer
Posts: 1331
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:13 pm

jumbojet wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Hello JB management,

You there?


This is why you don’t announce things years before you do it

This is why you don’t state your intentions for years and years Without the planes, the certification or the slots to do it

See, you guys talk a good game...other airlines play the game

you talk... they do

That is why your stock price is in the gutter, your employees are unionizing, and your operations are dead last in on time performance

Enjoy your All Hands party.

Delta didn’t give their employees a hangar party...They gave them thousands of dollars in profit sharing instead.


Post of the day


Indeed. TIme for a management change.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:20 pm

tphuang wrote:
bkflyguy wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
If B6 goes to LHR instead of LGW not the biggest blow, but a clear message is sent.

DL extra aggressive lately!


Taking a page from the NW playbook - NW aggressively defended its turf and would announce routes or dump capacity to drive out competitors and then pull the flight or reduce capacity once the threat was eliminated.


Except that when NW defended its turf, it was doing it from fortress hubs. DL/VS is not dominating at either LHR/LGW or at JFK/BOS. AA/BA dominates these markets. Can you imagine BA's response if DL/VS really tries to increase their market share here? One or 2 additional flights a day do nothing to these markets. More competition is great for customers. It's too bad that legacies will keep the J fares high until when B6 comes in and undercut them significantly.

2 possibilities here
1) B6 finds enough slots for LHR. In which case, it doesn't care what happens at LGW.
2) B6 can't find enough slots at LHR, so gets a good schedule out of LGW while waiting for LHR slots. In this case, it really depends on who they partner up on the other side. If they get U2, then they will have more connectivity on London end. Even if they don't, it's not like VS has much going on at LGW.

Either way, the big issue for B6 is still slots, not an additional flight or two.


Maybe you fail to realize and understand that B6 is not just up against DL/VS but also AA/BA. Its not gonna be the 'walk in the park' for B6 at London like you think it will be. This is not JFK/BOS - LAX/SFO etc. Not by any stretch. Wonder what AA/BA have up there sleeve for LGW service from BOS/JFK?
 
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OA940
Posts: 1838
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:20 pm

VS with A350? Expanding busy routes to LGW is a smart move. Still a large airport to serve London, has a lot of room (as exibited by the 18 daily flights they are planning to add) and it allows them to capture a larger share of the market compared to AA/BA and DY. Wish them luck, would love to see this actually come true. However one has to wonder how the others will respond to this.

Also if I'm not mistaken this will mark the first time a US airline flies to LGW since 2007, assuming of course DL actually does choose to fly there.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
bagoldex
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:21 pm

Fargo wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.


It's one of the most important business and most affluent travel markets in the country and its current dominant airline is teetering on the edge and Delta probably wants to be there when that happens. The novelty of JetBlue has mostly worn off and I think the market is ready to trade them in for a full service global airline.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:27 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
bkflyguy wrote:

Taking a page from the NW playbook - NW aggressively defended its turf and would announce routes or dump capacity to drive out competitors and then pull the flight or reduce capacity once the threat was eliminated.


Except that when NW defended its turf, it was doing it from fortress hubs. DL/VS is not dominating at either LHR/LGW or at JFK/BOS. AA/BA dominates these markets. Can you imagine BA's response if DL/VS really tries to increase their market share here? One or 2 additional flights a day do nothing to these markets. More competition is great for customers. It's too bad that legacies will keep the J fares high until when B6 comes in and undercut them significantly.

2 possibilities here
1) B6 finds enough slots for LHR. In which case, it doesn't care what happens at LGW.
2) B6 can't find enough slots at LHR, so gets a good schedule out of LGW while waiting for LHR slots. In this case, it really depends on who they partner up on the other side. If they get U2, then they will have more connectivity on London end. Even if they don't, it's not like VS has much going on at LGW.

Either way, the big issue for B6 is still slots, not an additional flight or two.


Maybe you fail to realize and understand that B6 is not just up against DL/VS but also AA/BA. Its not gonna be the 'walk in the park' for B6 at London like you think it will be. This is not JFK/BOS - LAX/SFO etc. Not by any stretch. Wonder what AA/BA have up there sleeve for LGW service from BOS/JFK?


Actually I would agree with you here. AA/BA has more on the line given JFK-LHR is their most important route in the network. Imo, it's surprising for DL/VS to announce this route so early if they are gearing up for B6. Adding 1 or 2 flights a day on JFK-LON is nothing considering how much capacity there is.

Why don't we wait a week and see what B6 actually announces.
 
klm617
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:29 pm

Once again dumping capacity in over saturated markets and not really being competitive over their entire network. Good luck with this Delta hope you make money selling your $399 round trips to LGW because that's all the market will bear. Penny wise and pound foolish.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BestWestern
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:31 pm

I flew DL from Boston to Gatwick a few times in the months following 9-11. The loads got as low as 19 on one of my flights.

Hopefully it does better this time.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:43 pm

tphuang wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
I don't see how this is a block of B6. NYC/BOS-LON is a huge market. Adding an extra flight or two makes very little impact.


This makes a big impact in a market that is overcapacity (especially Boston-London) with declining yields.
a.
 
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FCOTSTW
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:49 pm

Very smart move to start BOS-LIS. Lots of ethnical travel with a current duopoly of Azores Airlines (formerly SATA) and TAP.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Except that when NW defended its turf, it was doing it from fortress hubs. DL/VS is not dominating at either LHR/LGW or at JFK/BOS. AA/BA dominates these markets. Can you imagine BA's response if DL/VS really tries to increase their market share here? One or 2 additional flights a day do nothing to these markets. More competition is great for customers. It's too bad that legacies will keep the J fares high until when B6 comes in and undercut them significantly.

2 possibilities here
1) B6 finds enough slots for LHR. In which case, it doesn't care what happens at LGW.
2) B6 can't find enough slots at LHR, so gets a good schedule out of LGW while waiting for LHR slots. In this case, it really depends on who they partner up on the other side. If they get U2, then they will have more connectivity on London end. Even if they don't, it's not like VS has much going on at LGW.

Either way, the big issue for B6 is still slots, not an additional flight or two.


Maybe you fail to realize and understand that B6 is not just up against DL/VS but also AA/BA. Its not gonna be the 'walk in the park' for B6 at London like you think it will be. This is not JFK/BOS - LAX/SFO etc. Not by any stretch. Wonder what AA/BA have up there sleeve for LGW service from BOS/JFK?


Actually I would agree with you here. AA/BA has more on the line given JFK-LHR is their most important route in the network. Imo, it's surprising for DL/VS to announce this route so early if they are gearing up for B6. Adding 1 or 2 flights a day on JFK-LON is nothing considering how much capacity there is.

Why don't we wait a week and see what B6 actually announces.



I just don't see B6 becoming a significant player in the London market. Its taken the majors decades to build up what they have. Maybe in 10 to 20 years Blue will get to the point where DL was before they partnered with VS. I suppose Its also entirely possible, as you 'Blue' folks like to say, that they will be eating their lunch on JFK/BOS - London flights before long!
 
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GCT64
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:56 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
GCT64 wrote:
I don't see how this is a block of B6. NYC/BOS-LON is a huge market. Adding an extra flight or two makes very little impact.


This makes a big impact in a market that is overcapacity (especially Boston-London) with declining yields.


I didn't write what I am quoted as saying above. Very bad editing of previous posts. :shakehead:
Flown in: A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..55 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:58 pm

Will be interesting to see how the J class customers in the UK take to the Mint product, might need a tweek for the London route.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 25674
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:06 pm

GCT64 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
tphuang wrote:


This makes a big impact in a market that is overcapacity (especially Boston-London) with declining yields.


I didn't write what I am quoted as saying above. Very bad editing of previous posts. :shakehead:


The quoting code on this forum doesn't work. It's well known. Hasn't been fixed in over five years, never will be. Nothing was edited.
Last edited by MAH4546 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
a.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:06 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Maybe you fail to realize and understand that B6 is not just up against DL/VS but also AA/BA. Its not gonna be the 'walk in the park' for B6 at London like you think it will be. This is not JFK/BOS - LAX/SFO etc. Not by any stretch. Wonder what AA/BA have up there sleeve for LGW service from BOS/JFK?


Actually I would agree with you here. AA/BA has more on the line given JFK-LHR is their most important route in the network. Imo, it's surprising for DL/VS to announce this route so early if they are gearing up for B6. Adding 1 or 2 flights a day on JFK-LON is nothing considering how much capacity there is.

Why don't we wait a week and see what B6 actually announces.



I just don't see B6 becoming a significant player in the London market. Its taken the majors decades to build up what they have. Maybe in 10 to 20 years Blue will get to the point where DL was before they partnered with VS. I suppose Its also entirely possible, as you 'Blue' folks like to say, that they will be eating their lunch on JFK/BOS - London flights before long!


Don't get hang up on my comments too much.

BA is too strong at London and B6 won't have enough slots to move the market unless there is a massive slot release. But it will give them the ability to get more ff and corporate contract in NYC, which will help the entire system. It's going to be great for everyone. Going to Europe in J will get a lot cheaper. Those one way fares will also come down. All the corporate travel account are going to show B6 pricing, so BA will have to match fares on at least some flights. I don't see why anyone would be against that.

Believe it or not, I rarely fly B6 these days. They simply don't cover my flight needs out of NYC. But if they start flying to more European locations, I will fly them a lot more.

Out of BOS, it's a necessary market for them to enter given their stated aim with corporate clients. I see the J fares on BOS-LON market to come down significantly in a few years. B6 won't dominate, but they will have a nice share of the pie like on BOS-LAX/SFO/SEA, all markets where they have minimal point of sale on the other side.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:08 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Very smart move to start BOS-LIS. Lots of ethnical travel with a current duopoly of Azores Airlines (formerly SATA) and TAP.


The ethnic travel is to the islands, not Lisbon, which has historically been a much smaller local market than the island markets. That might not be the case anymore because Boston-Lisbon is another overcapacity market (calling it a duopoly is ridiuclous) with low fares.
a.
 
airzona11
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:16 pm

Any idea what seats will be in the 764s for J?
 
airbazar
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:26 pm

Moosefire wrote:
airbazar wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

How do we know that? Has there been an announcement - perhaps of purchase of LHR slots you'd like to point to?


Well when B6's CEO says things like "LHR or nothing" it makes it pretty clear doesn't it?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-453697/


Where did it say “Heathrow or nothing” in that article? I just read it twice.

- Access to competitive slots at London Heathrow...
- We have to offer competitive schedules at airports like Heathrow
- Securing slots at constrained airports like Heathrow

Now you: Do you see another London airport name in that article other than Heathrow? Seems pretty obvious to me what airport they want to fly into.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:34 pm

jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:

Maybe you fail to realize and understand that B6 is not just up against DL/VS but also AA/BA. Its not gonna be the 'walk in the park' for B6 at London like you think it will be. This is not JFK/BOS - LAX/SFO etc. Not by any stretch. Wonder what AA/BA have up there sleeve for LGW service from BOS/JFK?


Actually I would agree with you here. AA/BA has more on the line given JFK-LHR is their most important route in the network. Imo, it's surprising for DL/VS to announce this route so early if they are gearing up for B6. Adding 1 or 2 flights a day on JFK-LON is nothing considering how much capacity there is.

Why don't we wait a week and see what B6 actually announces.



I just don't see B6 becoming a significant player in the London market. Its taken the majors decades to build up what they have. Maybe in 10 to 20 years Blue will get to the point where DL was before they partnered with VS. I suppose Its also entirely possible, as you 'Blue' folks like to say, that they will be eating their lunch on JFK/BOS - London flights before long!


I think it’s more likely to see BOS/JFK to KEF, DUB as the most likely routes. Their partners already have significant presence in these markets.
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
by738
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:59 pm

Theres no way this will still be in this shape or form in a years time. Too much capacity, historically less demand from LGW (cw LHR), B6 etc. Was surprised even BA LGW lasted...
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1937
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:01 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
DL extra aggressive lately!


Sounds like what DL was up to in Seattle awhile back!
 
B747forever
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:11 pm

tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Actually I would agree with you here. AA/BA has more on the line given JFK-LHR is their most important route in the network. Imo, it's surprising for DL/VS to announce this route so early if they are gearing up for B6. Adding 1 or 2 flights a day on JFK-LON is nothing considering how much capacity there is.

Why don't we wait a week and see what B6 actually announces.



I just don't see B6 becoming a significant player in the London market. Its taken the majors decades to build up what they have. Maybe in 10 to 20 years Blue will get to the point where DL was before they partnered with VS. I suppose Its also entirely possible, as you 'Blue' folks like to say, that they will be eating their lunch on JFK/BOS - London flights before long!


Don't get hang up on my comments too much.

BA is too strong at London and B6 won't have enough slots to move the market unless there is a massive slot release. But it will give them the ability to get more ff and corporate contract in NYC, which will help the entire system. It's going to be great for everyone. Going to Europe in J will get a lot cheaper. Those one way fares will also come down. All the corporate travel account are going to show B6 pricing, so BA will have to match fares on at least some flights. I don't see why anyone would be against that.

Believe it or not, I rarely fly B6 these days. They simply don't cover my flight needs out of NYC. But if they start flying to more European locations, I will fly them a lot more.

Out of BOS, it's a necessary market for them to enter given their stated aim with corporate clients. I see the J fares on BOS-LON market to come down significantly in a few years. B6 won't dominate, but they will have a nice share of the pie like on BOS-LAX/SFO/SEA, all markets where they have minimal point of sale on the other side.


I don't think that any carrier will have to match B6 pricing with only the token service by them. The combined AA/BA, DL/VS and UA will still have pricing power with their multiple hourly/half hourly flights between NYC-LHR, which is what matters more to the business traveler. Unless B6 starts with 4-5 daily wide body flights they won't win over a meaningful number of travelers.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
FSDan
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:18 pm

Fargo wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.


Just like CVG and RDU serve no purpose in the network, right? In all three cases, DL's not after connecting traffic (you're right that Northeast and TATL connections are already well covered via DTW + JFK/LGA) - they're trying to capture the lucrative local business traffic.

DL sees an opportunity in BOS because there historically hasn't been a dominant network carrier there (AA arguably was at one point, but they've since heavily retrenched to hub markets), and there are lots of markets B6 doesn't serve at all where business travelers still need to go: MCI, MKE, IND, CMH, ORF, etc. This also extends to the international front, where the service has historically been very fragmented, and where DL has seen an opportunity to jump out ahead of B6.

On a slight side note, I've noticed that overall DL has been chasing traffic in markets that have a significant tech industry presence. SEA, SJC, AUS, RDU, and BOS have all seen above average growth over the past 5 years. Obviously, the growth has been tiered - SEA and BOS have been at the top, RDU in the middle, and SJC and AUS at the bottom.
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tphuang
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:20 pm

B747forever wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:


I just don't see B6 becoming a significant player in the London market. Its taken the majors decades to build up what they have. Maybe in 10 to 20 years Blue will get to the point where DL was before they partnered with VS. I suppose Its also entirely possible, as you 'Blue' folks like to say, that they will be eating their lunch on JFK/BOS - London flights before long!


Don't get hang up on my comments too much.

BA is too strong at London and B6 won't have enough slots to move the market unless there is a massive slot release. But it will give them the ability to get more ff and corporate contract in NYC, which will help the entire system. It's going to be great for everyone. Going to Europe in J will get a lot cheaper. Those one way fares will also come down. All the corporate travel account are going to show B6 pricing, so BA will have to match fares on at least some flights. I don't see why anyone would be against that.

Believe it or not, I rarely fly B6 these days. They simply don't cover my flight needs out of NYC. But if they start flying to more European locations, I will fly them a lot more.

Out of BOS, it's a necessary market for them to enter given their stated aim with corporate clients. I see the J fares on BOS-LON market to come down significantly in a few years. B6 won't dominate, but they will have a nice share of the pie like on BOS-LAX/SFO/SEA, all markets where they have minimal point of sale on the other side.


I don't think that any carrier will have to match B6 pricing with only the token service by them. The combined AA/BA, DL/VS and UA will still have pricing power with their multiple hourly/half hourly flights between NYC-LHR, which is what matters more to the business traveler. Unless B6 starts with 4-5 daily wide body flights they won't win over a meaningful number of travelers.


On BOS-LON market, they are going in with 3 flights. We know that from their slot requests for LHR. That will be competitive right away with the legacy JVs. On JFK-LON, they won't capture the high end corporate travellers, those are staying with BA. However, for just about any high yielding leisure traveller or regular corporate travellers, even 3 flights a night is enough . Imagine a guy who flies between NYC and London 3 or 4 times a year trying to justify to corporate travel department not picking the cheapest J option that's within 1 hours of their preferred time.

Let's say B6 has the cheapest J fares with flight times at 7, 9 and 11 PM, how high up do you think someone will have to be to tell corporate travel department that he/she can't pick those because he/she has to leave at 8 pm on the dot and can't leave 1 hour earlier or later. This is a serious question.
 
mutu
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:21 pm

I have always believed B6 will go to LGW for now so this may be blocking tactic
But I suspect amongst VS and DL fans there are a good number living closer to LGW so this may cannibalise LHr services to a degree (as BA experienced). But this too could open up LHR slots to new routes if enough traffic and yield moves over to LGW
 
mutu
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:25 pm

Also don’t forget that for B6 to have a case to receive remedy slots from BA AA at LHR a key consideration is that the frequencies offered by incumbents do not decrease nor the number of carriers. This offers more choice of frequencies in the LON NYC market and LON BOS so helps frustrate the awarding of those remedy slots to a new entrant.
 
B747forever
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:43 pm

tphuang wrote:
B747forever wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Don't get hang up on my comments too much.

BA is too strong at London and B6 won't have enough slots to move the market unless there is a massive slot release. But it will give them the ability to get more ff and corporate contract in NYC, which will help the entire system. It's going to be great for everyone. Going to Europe in J will get a lot cheaper. Those one way fares will also come down. All the corporate travel account are going to show B6 pricing, so BA will have to match fares on at least some flights. I don't see why anyone would be against that.

Believe it or not, I rarely fly B6 these days. They simply don't cover my flight needs out of NYC. But if they start flying to more European locations, I will fly them a lot more.

Out of BOS, it's a necessary market for them to enter given their stated aim with corporate clients. I see the J fares on BOS-LON market to come down significantly in a few years. B6 won't dominate, but they will have a nice share of the pie like on BOS-LAX/SFO/SEA, all markets where they have minimal point of sale on the other side.


I don't think that any carrier will have to match B6 pricing with only the token service by them. The combined AA/BA, DL/VS and UA will still have pricing power with their multiple hourly/half hourly flights between NYC-LHR, which is what matters more to the business traveler. Unless B6 starts with 4-5 daily wide body flights they won't win over a meaningful number of travelers.


On BOS-LON market, they are going in with 3 flights. We know that from their slot requests for LHR. That will be competitive right away with the legacy JVs. On JFK-LON, they won't capture the high end corporate travellers, those are staying with BA. However, for just about any high yielding leisure traveller or regular corporate travellers, even 3 flights a night is enough . Imagine a guy who flies between NYC and London 3 or 4 times a year trying to justify to corporate travel department not picking the cheapest J option that's within 1 hours of their preferred time.

Let's say B6 has the cheapest J fares with flight times at 7, 9 and 11 PM, how high up do you think someone will have to be to tell corporate travel department that he/she can't pick those because he/she has to leave at 8 pm on the dot and can't leave 1 hour earlier or later. This is a serious question.


The BOS-LHR market will be easier to make a dent into where the frequency by the other carriers are much lower. But I still doubt that 3x daily JFK-LON flights will be enough. Currently the combined NYC-LON flights on a random day in May are 16x daily AA/BA, 9x daily DL/VS and 5x daily UA all on wide bodies. 3x daily B6 flight will barely register with those legacy carriers. Then you have up to 3x daily 787s with Norwegian.

How many J seats can B6 offer on those 3x flights? I doubt those dozens of J seats will affect any of the other carriers that offers hundreds of J/F seats. It will be enough for the other carriers to only match 3 of their closest flights to the B6 flights and keep selling the rest of the flights at the current fare level.
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SotonLAX
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:54 pm

Prehaps this is more strategic - LGW has plenty of slots compared to LHR, so prehaps VS/DL is planning on testing the waters with feeding BE flights in LGW in the future for JFK/BOS as a potential new hub that can’t be achieved at LHR?
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:57 pm

B747forever wrote:
tphuang wrote:
B747forever wrote:

I don't think that any carrier will have to match B6 pricing with only the token service by them. The combined AA/BA, DL/VS and UA will still have pricing power with their multiple hourly/half hourly flights between NYC-LHR, which is what matters more to the business traveler. Unless B6 starts with 4-5 daily wide body flights they won't win over a meaningful number of travelers.


On BOS-LON market, they are going in with 3 flights. We know that from their slot requests for LHR. That will be competitive right away with the legacy JVs. On JFK-LON, they won't capture the high end corporate travellers, those are staying with BA. However, for just about any high yielding leisure traveller or regular corporate travellers, even 3 flights a night is enough . Imagine a guy who flies between NYC and London 3 or 4 times a year trying to justify to corporate travel department not picking the cheapest J option that's within 1 hours of their preferred time.

Let's say B6 has the cheapest J fares with flight times at 7, 9 and 11 PM, how high up do you think someone will have to be to tell corporate travel department that he/she can't pick those because he/she has to leave at 8 pm on the dot and can't leave 1 hour earlier or later. This is a serious question.


The BOS-LHR market will be easier to make a dent into where the frequency by the other carriers are much lower. But I still doubt that 3x daily JFK-LON flights will be enough. Currently the combined NYC-LON flights on a random day in May are 16x daily AA/BA, 9x daily DL/VS and 5x daily UA all on wide bodies. 3x daily B6 flight will barely register with those legacy carriers. Then you have up to 3x daily 787s with Norwegian.

How many J seats can B6 offer on those 3x flights? I doubt those dozens of J seats will affect any of the other carriers that offers hundreds of J/F seats. It will be enough for the other carriers to only match 3 of their closest flights to the B6 flights and keep selling the rest of the flights at the current fare level.

We will have to see how many flights they have and their layout. Let's say they do a heavy premium layout (28 to 32 J) with 4 flights a day in the near future, they can probably add another 120 J seat in the market. That's not insignificant.

The reality is everytime they have gone to the market with a real J product, legacy carriers have price matched them pretty aggressively, because B6 is not DY. They control significant point of sale at BOS/JFK. The fact that all the evening flights out of JFK is so packed works in B6 favor, since they can easily cover the entire schedule with 3 flights. Someone searching for 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 pm flight are all going to find B6 popping up.

Think about it this way, FLL/MIA-LAX is a hub to hub route for AA who had controlled pricing. But by mid-2018, B6 with 2 flights a day was commanding premium yield over AA.
 
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Aisak
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:13 pm

SotonLAX wrote:
prehaps VS/DL is planning on testing the waters with feeding BE flights in LGW in the future for JFK/BOS as a potential new hub that can’t be achieved at LHR?


Well, right now BE does not operate at LGW.
 
TC957
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:27 pm

Why does everyone think LGW doesn't get any business traffic ? Just try coming off a flight from the US and heading for the Financial City area of London on public transport like trains using LGW instead of LHR and I'll think you'll find LGW wins 9 times out of 10.
 
Gingersnap
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:46 pm

Reminds me of when VS operated to LGW on the 742 out of BOS in the early 00s.
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VS4ever
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:52 pm

I said this in the BOS thread, everyone is so hyper focused on B6, but to me BOS-LGW is as much about DY. Even since they moved up to daily their loads have been pretty stellar, I am traveling otherwise I would quote the stats which I have. Clearly not a determination of profitability but enough to drive plenty of people onto 344 seat aircraft daily.
DY are not really in a position to up capacity and as has been said above as nauseum B6 isn’t ready. So DL have found a way to get into the market and expand their offering at BOS. They have done this with DUB and will do with LIS when that starts
So it’s just as much a market expansion as a blocking tactic for B6 imho.
I do agree with the laboring of B6 on Europe, it’s ridiculous, but I doubt it’s the only reason this is being done based on the experience of DY on the route up to now.
No guarantee of success, but a combo of factors could lead to a decent route ultimately
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klm617
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:07 pm

FSDan wrote:
Fargo wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.


Just like CVG and RDU serve no purpose in the network, right? In all three cases, DL's not after connecting traffic (you're right that Northeast and TATL connections are already well covered via DTW + JFK/LGA) - they're trying to capture the lucrative local business traffic.

DL sees an opportunity in BOS because there historically hasn't been a dominant network carrier there (AA arguably was at one point, but they've since heavily retrenched to hub markets), and there are lots of markets B6 doesn't serve at all where business travelers still need to go: MCI, MKE, IND, CMH, ORF, etc. This also extends to the international front, where the service has historically been very fragmented, and where DL has seen an opportunity to jump out ahead of B6.

On a slight side note, I've noticed that overall DL has been chasing traffic in markets that have a significant tech industry presence. SEA, SJC, AUS, RDU, and BOS have all seen above average growth over the past 5 years. Obviously, the growth has been tiered - SEA and BOS have been at the top, RDU in the middle, and SJC and AUS at the bottom.


No CVG and RDU serve different purposes they are linked into a hub and at that hub there are onward connections to many destinations . Sorry but DTW TATL is not well connected except for four cities year round and 6 in the summer everything requires a double connect or back tracking.
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skipness1E
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:35 pm

OA940 wrote:
VS with A350? Expanding busy routes to LGW is a smart move. Still a large airport to serve London, has a lot of room (as exibited by the 18 daily flights they are planning to add) and it allows them to capture a larger share of the market compared to AA/BA and DY. Wish them luck, would love to see this actually come true. However one has to wonder how the others will respond to this.

Also if I'm not mistaken this will mark the first time a US airline flies to LGW since 2007, assuming of course DL actually does choose to fly there.

1. It’s not 18 Daily flights
2. Delta clung onto LGW-ATL until around 2012 ish from memory.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:40 pm

TC957 wrote:
Why does everyone think LGW doesn't get any business traffic ? Just try coming off a flight from the US and heading for the Financial City area of London on public transport like trains using LGW instead of LHR and I'll think you'll find LGW wins 9 times out of 10.

Because Gatwick does not exist in isolation and business travellers prefer frequency and lounges, both of which abound in much larger quantities at LHR. For example BA’s LGW-JFK is the only London widebody they fly to JFK with no F offered. The lack of connections from partners is also a concern in the Gatwick market. But great news all the same but it will be interesting to see how this pans out. I wonder if they suspect Norwegian will fold?
 
Fargo
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:56 pm

FSDan wrote:
Fargo wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.


Just like CVG and RDU serve no purpose in the network, right? In all three cases, DL's not after connecting traffic (you're right that Northeast and TATL connections are already well covered via DTW + JFK/LGA) - they're trying to capture the lucrative local business traffic.

DL sees an opportunity in BOS because there historically hasn't been a dominant network carrier there (AA arguably was at one point, but they've since heavily retrenched to hub markets), and there are lots of markets B6 doesn't serve at all where business travelers still need to go: MCI, MKE, IND, CMH, ORF, etc. This also extends to the international front, where the service has historically been very fragmented, and where DL has seen an opportunity to jump out ahead of B6.

On a slight side note, I've noticed that overall DL has been chasing traffic in markets that have a significant tech industry presence. SEA, SJC, AUS, RDU, and BOS have all seen above average growth over the past 5 years. Obviously, the growth has been tiered - SEA and BOS have been at the top, RDU in the middle, and SJC and AUS at the bottom.


But are DL's yields any good out of BOS? I suspect not (tphuang, can you post some data?). DL has already stated they do not intend to turn BOS into a hub, yet, they continue to invest tons of $$$ as if they are building one. There are other areas of their network that they need to focus on.

BOS is not as fragmented of a market as some people think, it has a large B6 presence plus large spokes for AA/UA as well as a plethora of international service (on all 3 alliances). B6 could add the routes you mentioned and then some. BOS is well served and would not skip a beat if DL's focus city didn't exist.

P.S. SJC and AUS are still spokes for DL, however, the latter will likely be elevated to at least focus city status pretty soon.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:29 pm

klm617 wrote:
No CVG and RDU serve different purposes they are linked into a hub and at that hub there are onward connections to many destinations .


Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but you seem to be implying that DL serves more North American destinations from CVG and RDU than they do from BOS, which isn't true.

Over the course of the past year DL served 38 North American destinations from BOS whereas it's only 35 for CVG and 29 for RDU.
 
ScottB
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:57 pm

Fargo wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.


BOS is a very wealthy market which is growing and there's a higher than average propensity to travel for the population in the region. Moreover, Boston punches above its weight for international travel thanks to the industries (finance, biotech, information tech, education, health care) which drive the local economy. It's also logical for them to get as big as they can at BOS since there's little room to expand the airport's footprint and pushing WN out of Terminal A keeps B6 from taking those gates down the road.

Longer term, it's unlikely that B6 stays independent, and being the leading legacy carrier at BOS is good strategically in the event that B6 is involved in consolidation. If WN buys B6, they have an obvious niche as the only full-service carrier with a BOS hub. If AA or UA were to buy B6 (unlikely IMO), both carriers have a history of retrenchment at BOS (which DL also has) and neither has shown great interest recently in point-to-point service in non-hub markets. In a consolidation with AS, it's not clear that AS would want to continue with products like Mint and the AS brand isn't well-known in Boston.

OA940 wrote:
Also if I'm not mistaken this will mark the first time a US airline flies to LGW since 2007, assuming of course DL actually does choose to fly there.


The last U.S. carrier to serve Gatwick was US Airways, which ended its LGW service in late March, 2013.

BestWestern wrote:
I flew DL from Boston to Gatwick a few times in the months following 9-11. The loads got as low as 19 on one of my flights.


Loads were low on everything post-9/11. The economy was cratering thanks to the post-dot-com bust and people were scared to get on airplanes.

TC957 wrote:
Why does everyone think LGW doesn't get any business traffic ? Just try coming off a flight from the US and heading for the Financial City area of London on public transport like trains using LGW instead of LHR and I'll think you'll find LGW wins 9 times out of 10.


Um, because the carriers who have access to the traffic numbers have found there's little demand? U.S.A.-LGW is a pretty obvious niche to try. And if you're paying several thousands of dollars or pounds round-trip on a business class seat, what's another hundred or so on a black car to/from Heathrow?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5393
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:01 pm

Fargo wrote:
BOS is not as fragmented of a market as some people think, it has a large B6 presence plus large spokes for AA/UA as well as a plethora of international service (on all 3 alliances).


That pretty much defines a fragmented market. DL can make a long-term commitment to go in and take share - much like it has at LAX and SEA, and in NYC. I like the B6 coach product but B6 doesn't have a TATL/TPAC network, the flexibility of RJs, nor premium cabins on many routes out of BOS.
 
twicearound
Posts: 132
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Re: Delta and Virgin to launch LGW-JFK and BOS from 2020

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:14 pm

Fargo wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Fargo wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how much DL is trying to build up BOS when the market is already super oversaturared and it serves no purpose in its network.


Just like CVG and RDU serve no purpose in the network, right? In all three cases, DL's not after connecting traffic (you're right that Northeast and TATL connections are already well covered via DTW + JFK/LGA) - they're trying to capture the lucrative local business traffic.

DL sees an opportunity in BOS because there historically hasn't been a dominant network carrier there (AA arguably was at one point, but they've since heavily retrenched to hub markets), and there are lots of markets B6 doesn't serve at all where business travelers still need to go: MCI, MKE, IND, CMH, ORF, etc. This also extends to the international front, where the service has historically been very fragmented, and where DL has seen an opportunity to jump out ahead of B6.

On a slight side note, I've noticed that overall DL has been chasing traffic in markets that have a significant tech industry presence. SEA, SJC, AUS, RDU, and BOS have all seen above average growth over the past 5 years. Obviously, the growth has been tiered - SEA and BOS have been at the top, RDU in the middle, and SJC and AUS at the bottom.


But are DL's yields any good out of BOS? I suspect not (tphuang, can you post some data?). DL has already stated they do not intend to turn BOS into a hub, yet, they continue to invest tons of $$$ as if they are building one. There are other areas of their network that they need to focus on.

BOS is not as fragmented of a market as some people think, it has a large B6 presence plus large spokes for AA/UA as well as a plethora of international service (on all 3 alliances). B6 could add the routes you mentioned and then some. BOS is well served and would not skip a beat if DL's focus city didn't exist.

P.S. SJC and AUS are still spokes for DL, however, the latter will likely be elevated to at least focus city status pretty soon.


Considering they are the most profitable airline IN THE WORLD, I think they know what they're doing. But feel free to write to their corporate office with your suggestions.

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