QF744
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:33 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Renderings

Councourse 0

Image
.
Image



Terminal 9

Image
.
Image


This is looking really impressive, especially Terminal 9 with that many widebody gates... I can see a massive expansion for United from LAX.
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AAlaxfan
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:45 pm

FSDan wrote:
Once these facilities come online, I could see things working out something like this:

T1 (including new Concourse 0): WN (international arrivals still at TBIT?), B6, NK, F9, G4, SY
T2+T3+North TBIT: DL + international partners
T4+T5+South TBIT: AA + international partners
T6: AS, HA
T7+T8+T9: UA + international partners
TBIT+Midfield: Non-aligned international airlines

We'll see, I guess. I don't know if there's any possibility of WN sharing the new Concourse 0 with the other domestic LCCs, but 11 gates seems like too many for just WN to use in addition to all the gates they currently have in T1. And B6, NK, G4, and SY will need to move somewhere if AA is going to close down the Eagle's Nest and move regional ops into T4/T5...

Do AS and HA really need all of T6. I can see B6 and SY moving in there ( after-all, 3 of them will eventually merge :stirthepot: ). Would the other 3, NK,F9 and G4 be able to fit their ops into the west side of T1 with 4-5 gates?
Last edited by AAlaxfan on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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xxcr
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:46 pm

B747forever wrote:
xxcr wrote:
B747forever wrote:

Market share 2018

AA 18.80%
DL 16.66%
UA 14.75%
WN 11.40%


UA isn't as weak as many on A.net make them to be. If UA is weak, then what is WN that is trailing with more than 3 percentage points?


internationAL wise, they are weak.....they only serve 5 long haul flights. SYD, MEL, LHR, PEK, NRT.


UA serve PVG and not PEK. Anyway, you can add AKL, HND, FRA, MUC, ZRH and VIE to those 5. The JV partner flights with NZ, ANA and LH group are metal neutral, so UA does serve those destinations. Quite a respectable long haul operation by UA at LAX.


If you want to compare only true metal flights, then DL as 2nd doesn't have a stronger long haul network with CDG, AMS, SYD, HND and PVG. Note the glaring lack of flights to LHR.



oh, those didnt show up on the UA site....i stand corrected!
 
Boof02671
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:52 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AA is giving up the Eagle’s Nest by 2024 and the hangar and a new hangar will be built.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-450127/


AA is not giving up the Eagle Terminal by 2024. That article is wrong.

See the LAWA Board Meeting at the 1:35 mark for the correct answer --- http://lawa.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.ph ... a_id=34284

Edited to Add: In the Notice of Prep, link above, this is what we learn about the Eagle terminal and its fate:

Operations at the American Eagle Commuter Terminal are planned to be relocated to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC)South Concourse, which is a separate terminal project having independent utility that was previously identified in the MSC Environmental Impact Report (City of Los Angeles, Los Angeles World Airports, Final Environmental Impact Report for Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) Midfield Satellite Concourse [SCH No. 2013021020], June 2014.)

See Footnote 12.

What is the status of the MSC South?

You’re is from 2014, mine is more current
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:59 pm

Duplicate post.
Last edited by ldvaviation on Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:06 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You’re is from 2014, mine is more current


Really? The footnote appears in the Notice for Prep that came out today.

The footnote is consistent with what was said in the LAWA Board Meeting. The Eagle facility stays intact until it is no longer needed. It will no longer be needed once AA's Eagle ops are relocated to the MSC South.

As of this date, there is no definite timeline for the completion of the MSC South.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:26 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Renderings

Concourse 0


Sure are a lot of blue planes with red and yellow tails in those renderings.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:44 pm

Hopefully Avianca and Copa with their narrow bodies are able to move to T9 since going from T3 to TBIT with elderly family members is a hassle.
 
Jamie514
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:54 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
ldvaviation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AA is giving up the Eagle’s Nest by 2024 and the hangar and a new hangar will be built.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-450127/


AA is not giving up the Eagle Terminal by 2024. That article is wrong.

See the LAWA Board Meeting at the 1:35 mark for the correct answer --- http://lawa.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.ph ... a_id=34284

Edited to Add: In the Notice of Prep, link above, this is what we learn about the Eagle terminal and its fate:

Operations at the American Eagle Commuter Terminal are planned to be relocated to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC)South Concourse, which is a separate terminal project having independent utility that was previously identified in the MSC Environmental Impact Report (City of Los Angeles, Los Angeles World Airports, Final Environmental Impact Report for Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) Midfield Satellite Concourse [SCH No. 2013021020], June 2014.)

See Footnote 12.

What is the status of the MSC South?

You’re is from 2014, mine is more current


The video content within his link where the relevant quote is found - that the eagles nest remains functional until new capacity is built elsewhere at LAX to replace it, has the same July 2018 date as your article.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:57 pm

The Terminal 0 configuration looks reasonable for the space, though the interior corners look a bit tight for a/c parking.

The Terminal 9 shape and parking configurations look....awkward, especially that weird jetway-tree in the middle. And is that building big enough for all of the TSA, CPB, and airside gate-lounge and concession-space it's going to need? I'd guess that design is going to evolve. That's also a very tight space for what it looks like LAWA is trying to accomplish. I wonder if Sepulveda will need to be lowered and decked over south of World Way.

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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:19 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
The Terminal 0 configuration looks reasonable for the space, though the interior corners look a bit tight for a/c parking.

And is that building big enough for all of the TSA, CPB, and airside gate-lounge and concession-space it's going to need? I'd guess that design is going to evolve.

Jim


Like any structure where sq. footage is a limiting factor, going vertical (multiple floors) is almost a requirement. DEN and DXB went vertical and created all sorts of additional space for clubs and meeting space as did the new United Club at LAX T7. I'm guessing that the initial renderings as shown are just preliminary.
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:57 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
The Terminal 0 configuration looks reasonable for the space, though the interior corners look a bit tight for a/c parking.

The Terminal 9 shape and parking configurations look....awkward, especially that weird jetway-tree in the middle. And is that building big enough for all of the TSA, CPB, and airside gate-lounge and concession-space it's going to need? I'd guess that design is going to evolve. That's also a very tight space for what it looks like LAWA is trying to accomplish. I wonder if Sepulveda will need to be lowered and decked over south of World Way.

Jim


According to the documents Terminal 0 will check in at 744,000 sq ft and Terminal 9 will have 1.178 million sq ft. For reference, TBIT has 1.179 million sq ft. Given that Terminal 9 appears to be more constrained acreage wise it appears that they will be going much more vertical and fewer interior statement spaces vs TBIT.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:01 pm

A. If UA took all of Terminal 9, how many gates would they have overall?

B. How many SA carriers are at LAX?

C. Would Terminal 9 allow UA to expand domestically to more cities in the east that AA/DL/WN already serve from LAX?
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:22 pm

So both AA and Dl cannot be too happy that WN and UA are getting 11 and 12 gates added to their existing ones. Now that this is out, I would imagine that both will be complaining they are geographically restricted from additional expansion and need more gates to compete. 3...2....1
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:30 pm

Could T8 have gates added on the east side, or is that not possible? Thanks.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:35 pm

LAXintl wrote:
A comment about T-9 and Star partners.
Only last month Janet Lamkin the president of California for UA stated they would like a future T-9 to offer better connectivity with Star partners, so surely some will move in. I suspect the JV ones especially are on top of this list.

Regarding the so-called Concourse 0, I fully expect LAWA to either locate some other airlines there or if SWA is given exclusive, LAWA will exercise its existing T-1 lease rights to relocate other airlines into T-1. Per the current agreement, SWA must give up 2 gates at the request of LAWA in T-1 to accommodate other tenants.


If that's true, I hope the rebuild an even better (which is already fantastic) Star Alliance Lounge.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:41 pm

simairlinenet wrote:
Could T8 have gates added on the east side, or is that not possible? Thanks.


T8 is pretty close to Sepulveda. Eyeballing it from Google Maps, it looks like there might be enough space to park aircraft between the current terminal building and Sepulveda, but there would be no room for a taxiway for the aircraft to reach them unless Sepulveda was lowered and the tunnel extended to World Way so that additional ramp could be built.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:46 pm

727200 wrote:
So both AA and Dl cannot be too happy that WN and UA are getting 11 and 12 gates added to their existing ones. Now that this is out, I would imagine that both will be complaining they are geographically restricted from additional expansion and need more gates to compete. 3...2....1


I'll admit I haven't kept up on all the proposed changes at LAX but last I heard wasn't AA getting more gates as airlines are reshuffled once the new mid field terminal opens? As far as DL is concerned don't they already have the most gates out of the US3 and WN? According to this 2018 Flight Global article DL will have 27 gates by 2024 the most of any carrier.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ly-447704/

I think the one thing we have to remember and other have already touched on this is that the proposed terminal 9 will not belong to UA exclusively UA will have to share that terminal some Star Alliance partners,so in reality UA isn't getting all 12 gates but it will facilitate a more seamless travel experience for customers connecting from one Star partner to another.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:47 pm

splitterz wrote:
If that's true, I hope the rebuild an even better (which is already fantastic) Star Alliance Lounge.


...with full views of the 25s! my only issue with the current *A lounge is that the outdoor view is slightly disappointing.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:01 am

jayunited wrote:
727200 wrote:
I'll admit I haven't kept up on all the proposed changes at LAX but last I heard wasn't AA getting more gates as airlines are reshuffled once the new mid field terminal opens? As far as DL is concerned don't they already have the most gates out of the US3 and WN? According to this 2018 Flight Global article DL will have 27 gates by 2024 the most of any carrier.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ly-447704/


DL will have 21 gates in T2/T3 while under construction. By mid-2023, that will indeed raise to 27 (T2=13, T3=14). I also believe DL has some rights to up to 4 TBIT gates, so 31 total.
 
aklrno
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:03 am

A few things I found interesting:

1. They seem to get rid of the 96th street entrance to build T0. Probably this would work because the APM will reduce the bus/shuttle van traffic into the Central area. Getting rid of the traffic light outside T1 would be a HUGE improvement in traffic flow.

2. The new APM was planned to go past the place where T9 will be built, so adding the station will be easy. I wonder if the T9 plans will be done in time to allow for the APM design to include the T9 station to be built with the original construction.

3. The fill required to turn the parking lot next to T1 into the T0 ramp boggles my mind. Not hundred of truckload, not thousands. Maybe 100,000 truckloads done over a year or so? My rough guess is between 200,000 and 300,000 cubic yards (for the rest of the world that's 152,000-230,000 cubic meters). Where do they get that much fill nearby? Usually projects this size are done in concert with another project that has excess dirt to get rid of. My first guess would be the hills west of the runways, but that is protected butterfly habitat. Maybe the commercial project scheduled north of RWY 24R? The EIR will be interesting where it describes the construction impact on nearby roads. Hope they don't plan on using Sepulveda Blvd. or I-415 to move that dirt! Maybe they should put part of the new rental car and transportation hubs slightly underground to reduce the visual impact and provide the fill.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:42 am

FSDan wrote:
Once these facilities come online, I could see things working out something like this:

T1 (including new Concourse 0): WN (international arrivals still at TBIT?), B6, NK, F9, G4, SY
T2+T3+North TBIT: DL + international partners
T4+T5+South TBIT: AA + international partners
T6: AS, HA
T7+T8+T9: UA + international partners
TBIT+Midfield: Non-aligned international airlines

We'll see, I guess. I don't know if there's any possibility of WN sharing the new Concourse 0 with the other domestic LCCs, but 11 gates seems like too many for just WN to use in addition to all the gates they currently have in T1. And B6, NK, G4, and SY will need to move somewhere if AA is going to close down the Eagle's Nest and move regional ops into T4/T5...


Some of the diagrams show an FIS inside Concourse 0, so, no TBIT necessary for WN.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:55 am

xxcr wrote:
B747forever wrote:
xxcr wrote:
With how weak UA is at LAX, this will help them grow a little. When will these terminals open? 2030?


Market share 2018

AA 18.80%
DL 16.66%
UA 14.75%
WN 11.40%


UA isn't as weak as many on A.net make them to be. If UA is weak, then what is WN that is trailing with more than 3 percentage points?


internationAL wise, they are weak.....they only serve 5 long haul flights. SYD, MEL, LHR, PEK, NRT.


UA flies to PVG, not PEK. They have the smallest market share of the big 3, yes, but it has been said they are actually more profitable than AA and DL who are said to lose money on LAX, but can't afford to not be there. It's that competitive.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:05 am

T9 definitely seems like a potentially unique advantage for United in LA. It's such a pain at LAX going through the circle/TBIT traffic for T2-T5
 
ldvaviation
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:23 am

727200 wrote:
So both AA and Dl cannot be too happy that WN and UA are getting 11 and 12 gates added to their existing ones. Now that this is out, I would imagine that both will be complaining they are geographically restricted from additional expansion and need more gates to compete. 3...2....1


WN and UA are not getting that many gates.

LAWA awards additional gates in proportion to current market share and revenue ops. UA's market share does not justify having as many gates as AA or DL.

What appeared today were conceptual studies. There are no specific airlines associated with these facilities. Let's wait and see how much it all costs. T9 itself looks like a $1B + project. United has been reluctant to spend that kind of money at IAD.

Once the true costs are known, let's see who lines up to pay for the construction. Financially and operationally, T9 may only make sense as a common use facility (United+partners or United+other airlines).

As to AA and DL, they have already signed new leases which grant them new gates. If I remember correctly, DL up to 28 (shared with partners) and AA up to 33. In both cases, the award of new gates is contingent on their spending over $1.5B on terminal renovations. Both expect to complete their renovations and have most of their new gates by 2028.

On the other hand, I doubt construction begins on T0 or T9 before 2024 or even 2028. If it stays within its current capital spending limits, LAWA has about $1.8B left to spend between now and 2028. Given the facts on the ground, it makes more sense for LAWA to move forward now with the MSC South Concourse.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:38 am

WALmsp wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
SRT75 wrote:
So where do FedEx and the cargo operators go?


FedEx is moving to ONT.


Why would these new terminals affect cargo carriers? Their ops are on the south side of the runways, way from all the construction.


It won't matter for FedEx either way as they will be moving the operation to ONT anyways.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:32 am

FX1816 wrote:
WALmsp wrote:
FX1816 wrote:

FedEx is moving to ONT.


Why would these new terminals affect cargo carriers? Their ops are on the south side of the runways, way from all the construction.


It won't matter for FedEx either way as they will be moving the operation to ONT anyways.


Between FedEx, UPS, and Amazon, that's some serious cargo love happening at ONT.
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DL717
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:35 am

NorthernPyro wrote:
IMO LAX really needs a complete rebuild with less/larger terminals. But I understand that there just isn't the money for it.


This, but they killed it when they put the TBIT expansion where it is. They should have built fully to the west with tunnels to get there with a central core around the old tower and gone full Atlanta on the layout. Start with the fuel fart at the far west and work back. They’re stuck now with billions sunk in bandaids on old facilities that choke efficiency.

A lot of airports have been handicapped with poor layouts from a different era and only a few are getting new layouts that overcome the decisions of the past, like La Guardia. Yes, it’s expensive as hell to basically start over, but the life cycle of a Terminal is about 50-years and compounding 50-year old problems with new problems will get you nowhere.
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The777Man
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:49 am

FX1816 wrote:
WALmsp wrote:
FX1816 wrote:

FedEx is moving to ONT.


Why would these new terminals affect cargo carriers? Their ops are on the south side of the runways, way from all the construction.


It won't matter for FedEx either way as they will be moving the operation to ONT anyways.


When is FedEx moving to ONT ?

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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:58 am

Flight Global has story with a bit more detail.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ns-457251/

LAWA spokesperson says both new facilities would be operational prior to 2028 Olympics.
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LAXintl
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:07 am

The777Man wrote:

When is FedEx moving to ONT ?



FX sorting hub is out of room at LAX. They signed a 30-year lease to develop a 51-acre site adjacent to ONT. Anticipated move date previously announced was Nov 2020, though their LAX master lease was recently extended to 2023, so suppose the move will be somewhere in between these dates.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:24 am

ldvaviation wrote:
727200 wrote:
So both AA and Dl cannot be too happy that WN and UA are getting 11 and 12 gates added to their existing ones. Now that this is out, I would imagine that both will be complaining they are geographically restricted from additional expansion and need more gates to compete. 3...2....1


WN and UA are not getting that many gates.

LAWA awards additional gates in proportion to current market share and revenue ops. UA's market share does not justify having as many gates as AA or DL.

What appeared today were conceptual studies. There are no specific airlines associated with these facilities. Let's wait and see how much it all costs. T9 itself looks like a $1B + project. United has been reluctant to spend that kind of money at IAD.

Once the true costs are known, let's see who lines up to pay for the construction. Financially and operationally, T9 may only make sense as a common use facility (United+partners or United+other airlines).

As to AA and DL, they have already signed new leases which grant them new gates. If I remember correctly, DL up to 28 (shared with partners) and AA up to 33. In both cases, the award of new gates is contingent on their spending over $1.5B on terminal renovations. Both expect to complete their renovations and have most of their new gates by 2028.

On the other hand, I doubt construction begins on T0 or T9 before 2024 or even 2028. If it stays within its current capital spending limits, LAWA has about $1.8B left to spend between now and 2028. Given the facts on the ground, it makes more sense for LAWA to move forward now with the MSC South Concourse.


UA and WN have plenty of time to build up their traffic to these gates being allocated.
 
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:43 am

ldvaviation wrote:

Once the true costs are known, let's see who lines up to pay for the construction. Financially and operationally, T9 may only make sense as a common use facility (United+partners or United+other airlines).



Which is more than likely what it's intended to be...I don't think UA wants or needs another 12 gates of their own at LAX.

My best guess is at a minimum UAs widebody, international flights and their JV partners (NZ, NH, AC, LH, OS, LX, AV and CM) co-locate in T9. Beyond that I don't think UA really cares who else is in T9...perhaps move HA and the non aligned international carriers in T5 and T6 over as well. Doing all of that would create a reasonably well utilized terminal and give UA space to add a handful of long haul flights out of T9 if they choose to. That would also create room in T7 for additional domestic flights and possibly even for UA to add an extra gate or two as T7 would not need to handle widebody flights.
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LAX772LR
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:45 am

B747forever wrote:
If you want to compare only true metal flights, then DL as 2nd doesn't have a stronger long haul network with CDG, AMS, SYD, HND and PVG. Note the glaring lack of flights to LHR.

What are you talking about? VS operates 2-3 daily (depending on season) metal neutral flights to LHR with DL at LAX.

DL and metal-neutral j/v partners serve CDG, LHR, AMS, FCO, SYD, MEL, BNE, HND, PVG, ICN and soon MAN from LAX.... the same number as what you listed for UA, et al.
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:05 am

WALmsp wrote:
Between FedEx, UPS, and Amazon, that's some serious cargo love happening at ONT.


It’s an LA thing; cheaper and more room to grow. Most distribution centers in Los Angeles/Orange County were relocated to the Inland Empire since the 1990s, as companies take advantage of swelling real estate sales in LA/OC + lower costs and growth opportunities of the IE. Ralph’s (the Alpha Beta version, not the Kroger version) and Lucky Stores infamously tried to close their LA/OC warehouses in favor of newer, cheaper labor, larger, more modern ones in the IE but were blocked by various rulings in favor of organized labor. Albertsons, which acquired Lucky and much later Von’s, is attempting to re-boot the move...
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:16 am

DL717 wrote:
NorthernPyro wrote:
IMO LAX really needs a complete rebuild with less/larger terminals. But I understand that there just isn't the money for it.


This, but they killed it when they put the TBIT expansion where it is. They should have built fully to the west with tunnels to get there with a central core around the old tower and gone full Atlanta on the layout. Start with the fuel fart at the far west and work back. They’re stuck now with billions sunk in bandaids on old facilities that choke efficiency.

A lot of airports have been handicapped with poor layouts from a different era and only a few are getting new layouts that overcome the decisions of the past, like La Guardia. Yes, it’s expensive as hell to basically start over, but the life cycle of a Terminal is about 50-years and compounding 50-year old problems with new problems will get you nowhere.


It's not just the money. There has to be a viable transition model during reconstruction. An airport as landlocked and congested as LAX has nowhere to offload operations for the non-temporary (multi-year construction) process.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1694
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:10 am

United1 wrote:
ldvaviation wrote:

Once the true costs are known, let's see who lines up to pay for the construction. Financially and operationally, T9 may only make sense as a common use facility (United+partners or United+other airlines).



Which is more than likely what it's intended to be...I don't think UA wants or needs another 12 gates of their own at LAX.

My best guess is at a minimum UAs widebody, international flights and their JV partners (NZ, NH, AC, LH, OS, LX, AV and CM) co-locate in T9. Beyond that I don't think UA really cares who else is in T9...perhaps move HA and the non aligned international carriers in T5 and T6 over as well. Doing all of that would create a reasonably well utilized terminal and give UA space to add a handful of long haul flights out of T9 if they choose to. That would also create room in T7 for additional domestic flights and possibly even for UA to add an extra gate or two as T7 would not need to handle widebody flights.


I think this is about right. A lot of people on here think of United as having a diminishing presence at LAX, but the Scott Kirby era United has expressed a very different view of LAX compared to the Jeff Smisek era United.

If we project that UA gets six of the 12 gates in T9, and we roughly estimate ~7 departures per gate, then that would be about 42 additional daily departures. I think that’s something UA could certainly stomach at LAX.
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DL717
Posts: 1495
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:28 pm

Supersarestupid wrote:
DL717 wrote:
NorthernPyro wrote:
IMO LAX really needs a complete rebuild with less/larger terminals. But I understand that there just isn't the money for it.


This, but they killed it when they put the TBIT expansion where it is. They should have built fully to the west with tunnels to get there with a central core around the old tower and gone full Atlanta on the layout. Start with the fuel fart at the far west and work back. They’re stuck now with billions sunk in bandaids on old facilities that choke efficiency.

A lot of airports have been handicapped with poor layouts from a different era and only a few are getting new layouts that overcome the decisions of the past, like La Guardia. Yes, it’s expensive as hell to basically start over, but the life cycle of a Terminal is about 50-years and compounding 50-year old problems with new problems will get you nowhere.


It's not just the money. There has to be a viable transition model during reconstruction. An airport as landlocked and congested as LAX has nowhere to offload operations for the non-temporary (multi-year construction) process.



That’s why you start as far west as you can, and use tunnels to get there. It frees you of the complexity. They could have easily dropped parking structures for the core and start the tunnel process. They talked about it many years ago, but took the cheap way out. Now they’ve further locked themselves in. There is always a way to do it if you want to do it right. See Salt Lake City and La Guardia. Yes, those projects and the logistics are hard. That’s why you hire people to solve it. Nothing is landlocked like La Guardia and Salt Lake City isn’t greenfield with what they are doing either.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Noise
Posts: 2436
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 7:38 am

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:42 pm

For the love of God, just tear down LAX and rebuild it from scratch...similar to what they're doing now to LGA.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1440
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:15 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AA is giving up the Eagle’s Nest by 2024 and the hangar and a new hangar will be built.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-450127/


AA is not giving up the Eagle Terminal by 2024. That article is wrong.

See the LAWA Board Meeting at the 1:35 mark for the correct answer --- http://lawa.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.ph ... a_id=34284

Edited to Add: In the Notice of Prep, link above, this is what we learn about the Eagle terminal and its fate:

Operations at the American Eagle Commuter Terminal are planned to be relocated to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC)South Concourse, which is a separate terminal project having independent utility that was previously identified in the MSC Environmental Impact Report (City of Los Angeles, Los Angeles World Airports, Final Environmental Impact Report for Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) Midfield Satellite Concourse [SCH No. 2013021020], June 2014.)

See Footnote 12.

What is the status of the MSC South?

Your incorrect

“An American spokesman says the airline is working with LAWA on plans to relocate its regional facility that would be demolished to make room for terminal”

“The 12-gate Terminal 9 would rise east of Sepulveda Boulevard on land occupied by hangars and a regional concourse used by American. The 109,440m2 terminal would be connected by a bridge over the road to terminal 8, and include a new station on the airport's under construction automated people mover”

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ns-457251/
 
blockski
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:43 pm

Noise wrote:
For the love of God, just tear down LAX and rebuild it from scratch...similar to what they're doing now to LGA.


The reason why they don't (aside from the enormous expense) is that tearing it all down and starting over doesn't necessarily address the challenges LAX is facing.

As the busiest O&D airport in the country, they need a lot more curbspace for check-ins.
 
1ffb2002
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:47 pm

These additions do nothing as previous posters have said to eliminate the traffic in the loop of traffic into the main terminal area, nor does it address the connecting the terminals post security. This plan just continues building additional terminals on to a very outdated design.
 
aumaverick
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:40 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:09 pm

DL717 wrote:
NorthernPyro wrote:
IMO LAX really needs a complete rebuild with less/larger terminals. But I understand that there just isn't the money for it.


This, but they killed it when they put the TBIT expansion where it is. They should have built fully to the west with tunnels to get there with a central core around the old tower and gone full Atlanta on the layout. Start with the fuel fart at the far west and work back. They’re stuck now with billions sunk in bandaids on old facilities that choke efficiency.

A lot of airports have been handicapped with poor layouts from a different era and only a few are getting new layouts that overcome the decisions of the past, like La Guardia. Yes, it’s expensive as hell to basically start over, but the life cycle of a Terminal is about 50-years and compounding 50-year old problems with new problems will get you nowhere.


The new rendering of T9 and C0, coupled with the long distance between all the terminals and with DL717's comments above, this makes me really thankful for being based out of ATL. My sympathies to all you Angelenos facing these improvements.
I'm just here so I won't get fined. - Marshawn Lynch
 
B747forever
Posts: 13742
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:12 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
B747forever wrote:
If you want to compare only true metal flights, then DL as 2nd doesn't have a stronger long haul network with CDG, AMS, SYD, HND and PVG. Note the glaring lack of flights to LHR.

What are you talking about? VS operates 2-3 daily (depending on season) metal neutral flights to LHR with DL at LAX.

DL and metal-neutral j/v partners serve CDG, LHR, AMS, FCO, SYD, MEL, BNE, HND, PVG, ICN and soon MAN from LAX.... the same number as what you listed for UA, et al.


Read my whole post again and I am sure you will figure it out.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Noise
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:18 pm

I think an ideal design for LAX would be one of these two:
1) a SIN style design, with two linear and parallel terminals
2) an ATL/new SLC design with parallel concourses leading to the main terminal.
 
blockski
Posts: 472
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:25 pm

1ffb2002 wrote:
These additions do nothing as previous posters have said to eliminate the traffic in the loop of traffic into the main terminal area, nor does it address the connecting the terminals post security. This plan just continues building additional terminals on to a very outdated design.


How would any plan both a) expand terminal capacity, and b) eliminate terminal traffic?

An ATL-style layout won't solve LAX's problems. LAX has almost double the O&D traffic of ATL, and it has many more airlines that operate there (each requiring some space of their own - no economies of scale for a single dominant hub carrier like Delta at ATL).

I'm also not sure why you mention post-security connections. Concourse 0 is clearly connected post-security to T1; There's every reason to believe that T8 and T9 would be connected behind security as well.
 
carljanderson
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:45 pm

blockski wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
These additions do nothing as previous posters have said to eliminate the traffic in the loop of traffic into the main terminal area, nor does it address the connecting the terminals post security. This plan just continues building additional terminals on to a very outdated design.


How would any plan both a) expand terminal capacity, and b) eliminate terminal traffic?

An ATL-style layout won't solve LAX's problems. LAX has almost double the O&D traffic of ATL, and it has many more airlines that operate there (each requiring some space of their own - no economies of scale for a single dominant hub carrier like Delta at ATL).

I'm also not sure why you mention post-security connections. Concourse 0 is clearly connected post-security to T1; There's every reason to believe that T8 and T9 would be connected behind security as well.


^^^ I use LAX between 1 - 3 times a month, and the only problem is the traffic around the horseshoe. Once I get to the curb, it's usually less than 15 minutes before I am at the gate. Primarily T2/3, but have also used T1 and T7 recently. I don't see how a large ATL style terminal will a) reduce traffic and b) maintain my 15 minute curb to gate. I hope the APM will reduce the traffic in the CTA, but it is LA, so I can see it not reducing the traffic as much.

After the completion of the Delta's work in T2/3 and T1.5 projects, all of the current terminals will be connected post-security. Currently, TBIT - 8 are all connected post-security. C0 and T9 will connect to the rest post-security.

Is LAX great for connections? I - D, probably not, especially TBIT to another carrier. But for D-D, I can't see how it's horrible as you are more than likely in the same terminal, and none are all that huge. (Eagle's Nest not withstanding). However, LAX is an O&D airport.
 
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n901wa
Posts: 443
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Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:10 pm

Very Cool. The Drawings are very nice, and now see why we had to move from the Western Area. I didn't see it in the drawings, and hope they find a way to fix the Crosswalk at Century and Sepulveda on the Northside of the street, and make it safer for both folks walking across the street and drivers.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:02 pm

So would this mean more gates for B6 down the road?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: LAX moves forward with plans for Terminal 0 and 9

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:57 pm

Image

The LAX In & Out is safe.

I imagine that ambulance-chasing attorneys are already salivating at the thought of "Citizens for Responsible Airport Planning" (CRAP, or whatever name they want to call themselves) lining up at their doors to represent them in their 'noble' attempt to save their neighborhoods from the evil LAX and its expansion plans that will destroy their way of life and kill of their children. I know the agreement that has limited LAX to a certain number of gates will have to be modified, and then the court - and media - battles will begin.

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