Scarebus34
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UA suspends EWR-DEL to 8th of May

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:40 pm

It appears due to a myriad of issues including the Pakistani Airspace closure, en-route winds, and crew duty limits, United will suspend EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service for approximately two weeks beginning tomorrow, 4/5. Service to BOM (Mumbai) will continue and resume non-stop routings beginning today.


link: https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... um=twitter
Last edited by qf789 on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: updated title, new information
 
flight152
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:43 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
It appears due to a myriad of issues including the Pakistani Airspace closure, en-route winds, and crew duty limits, United will suspend EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service for approximately two weeks beginning tomorrow, 4/5. Service to BOM (Mumbai) will continue and resume non-stop routings beginning today.

Where are you getting this? Shows flight operating on time tomorrow and Saturday.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:44 pm

flight152 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It appears due to a myriad of issues including the Pakistani Airspace closure, en-route winds, and crew duty limits, United will suspend EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service for approximately two weeks beginning tomorrow, 4/5. Service to BOM (Mumbai) will continue and resume non-stop routings beginning today.

Where are you getting this? Shows flight operating on time tomorrow and Saturday.

Edited to include the link: https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... um=twitter
 
x1234
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:57 pm

According to FR24, UA49 (BOM-EWR) just flew over Pakistani airspace and is now over Iran. Is Pakistani airspace now OPEN!?
 
jayunited
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:10 pm

flight152 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It appears due to a myriad of issues including the Pakistani Airspace closure, en-route winds, and crew duty limits, United will suspend EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service for approximately two weeks beginning tomorrow, 4/5. Service to BOM (Mumbai) will continue and resume non-stop routings beginning today.

Where are you getting this? Shows flight operating on time tomorrow and Saturday.


Internal emails were sent out this morning I didn't want to be the first person to post anything on anetters because it is such a fluid situation and for a while it was a private internal email.
Having said that the schedule should be updated soon to reflect the suspension but it was only a matter of time these diversions to Germany are costing UA a fortune. As I understand it some airspace has been reopened over Pakistan but not all as a result DEL-EWR at this time still can not resume a normal nonstop routing while BOM-EWR can. Right now with the guidance given UA expects Pakistani airspace to fully reopen within the next two weeks but for now the flight has to be suspended because our operating cost are up significantly with the required takeoff and landing slots in Germany and all the cost associated with doing a full re-crew in Germany. UA has given it as much time as they could hoping the situation would be resolved and Pakistan's airspace fully reopened, but here we are more than a month later and we still have to stop in Germany its not sustainable.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:14 pm

And it appears the cancellations have been processed...
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:58 pm

x1234 wrote:
According to FR24, UA49 (BOM-EWR) just flew over Pakistani airspace and is now over Iran. Is Pakistani airspace now OPEN!?

This morning Pakistan opened up airways P518 and G208 for
westbound overflight via Iran only. No eastbound arrivals into Indian airspace is accepted at this time. All other airspace is remained closed for overflight usage until further notice.

The airways allowed for 49 to operate non-stop however it's not enough of a shortcut to allow 83 from DEL to operate within the scope of the FAR crew limitations.
 
LH658
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:27 am

AI 171 AMD - LHR is flying through Pakistan right now..
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:38 am

LH658 wrote:
AI 171 AMD - LHR is flying through Pakistan right now..

Two airways have re-opened in Pakistan airspace which are allowing for the BOM flights to operate nonstop. However, they provide no relief to the DEL flight.
 
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jaybird
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:40 am

Emails have gone out to all travel agents and corporate accounts.
 
sabby
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks

Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:55 pm

jayunited wrote:

... but it was only a matter of time these diversions to Germany are costing UA a fortune.

Really ? I thought the tech stop would save quite a lot of fuel.
 
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Polot
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:00 pm

sabby wrote:
jayunited wrote:

... but it was only a matter of time these diversions to Germany are costing UA a fortune.

Really ? I thought the tech stop would save quite a lot of fuel.

Tech stops don’t save fuel. A 777? (Don’t know what UA uses) doesn’t magically burn less fuel flying EWR-FRA-DEL than the nonstop, especially as that means another descent and take off.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:10 pm

It does mean you're not carrying the full ~8,000-miles worth of fuel EWR-FRA, however. Does a UA dispatcher want to join in?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:19 pm

Tech stops cost thousands of dollars

Never cheaper

Everytime you divert, you have two longer flight plans instead of one non stop plan

Two flights with climb thrust and climb fuel burn

Airport fees

Reserve fuel for two flights instead of one

Extra crew needed as crew duty day gets extended or exceeded

On average, unexpected diversions costs a narrowbody around $20000 USD

Planned diversions are more managable, but are still pricey
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:49 pm

If Pakistan doesn’t open up their airspace, then I imagine EWR-DEL and EWR-BOM will be cancelled within the next year.
Pakistan's aviation sector is coming back. It won't be as strong as our eastern neighbor, nowhere close, but it's going to grow over time. Stand by and watch.

Born to Pakistani parents near ORD; raised and based near ORD.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Why is UA cancelling while AC is still flying? Flights (EWR-DEL vs YYZ-DEL) are similar in length...
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:57 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Why is UA cancelling while AC is still flying? Flights (EWR-DEL vs YYZ-DEL) are similar in length...

Keep in mind different countries and airlines have different rest rules/requirements. Also the EB isn’t the problem it’s the return. Looking at AC43 they have been making stops in CPH and lately have been flying eastbound and stopping in YVR. They must be willing to sustain the losses.
Last edited by Scarebus34 on Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:58 pm

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
If Pakistan doesn’t open up their airspace, then I imagine EWR-DEL and EWR-BOM will be cancelled within the next year.

A larger portion of Pakistani airspace is expected to open in the next two weeks.
 
anshabhi
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:01 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
It appears due to a myriad of issues including the Pakistani Airspace closure, en-route winds, and crew duty limits, United will suspend EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service for approximately two weeks beginning tomorrow, 4/5. Service to BOM (Mumbai) will continue and resume non-stop routings beginning today.


link: https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... um=twitter

Couldn't they reduce frequency to something like 3 per week instead of cancelling it completely? Or restrict both flight's to BOM?
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:06 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
It appears due to a myriad of issues including the Pakistani Airspace closure, en-route winds, and crew duty limits, United will suspend EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service for approximately two weeks beginning tomorrow, 4/5. Service to BOM (Mumbai) will continue and resume non-stop routings beginning today.


link: https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... um=twitter

Couldn't they reduce frequency to something like 3 per week instead of cancelling it completely? Or restrict both flight's to BOM?

They obviously feel pretty comfortable with their ability to rebook passengers on AI/LH through LHR/FRA. It makes logistical sense to just suspend the flight rather than continue tech stops which were eating up a lot of crew/aircraft resources. BOM is slot restricted and they must not feel it’s worth the effort to obtain a slot is worth it temporarily.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:31 pm

I have always been fascinated with EWR and its flights to India - it has (at least in the recent past) been able to sustain not one, not two, but three daily non-stops to the subcontinent. To the best of my knowledge, even JFK didn't have this many non-stops. That's impressive!

To the topic at hand: the cancellation of this non-stop really only affects traffic to the Delhi region, as it appears United #48 EWR-BOM is still scheduled for this evening (Friday, April 5th, 12 noon Newark time), and Air India #144 (EWR-BOM) is en route.

Customers connecting to somewhere in India itself at DEL should be just as easily re-routed at BOM. What airports are served only from DEL and not BOM? As an example, say the itinerary initially was EWR-DEL-TRV. EWR-BOM-TRV is equally as accessible.

Only the premium non-stop market is affected. And while this is obviously a significant market, these customers are probably the ones most aware of the geography of United's predicament, and as the most informed, they will be the most understanding.

As for the rest of the U.S.-Delhi market on United, c'est la vie kids. I can't imagine it would be too difficult to re-route many on LH, but it might mean a double-connect somewhere for a few. Star Alliance FF's will still be getting their miles...
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:35 pm

What I'm trying to glean from this announcement is whether Pak airspace restrictions will be lifted two weeks from now.
Vahroone
 
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Irehdna
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:36 pm

I actually don't think BOM will last much longer, especially without DEL. Now BOM is at least 5-6 hrs from the nearest UA destination (SIN), may be risky in case of an emergency. (From personal experience BOM flights would sometimes reroute to DEL if there was an emergency at BOM.) Not to mention for what ever reason AI can operate BOM-IAD/EWR nonstop while UA stops in FRA. (Probably crew time issues more than range)
 
voxkel
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:52 pm

UA really needs to just sub in 789 for the India routes. It should be able to operate nonstop both ways. Polaris is not needed IMO on the India routes, but a nonstop from India to the US matters a lot. It would be very desirable if UA uses 789 to reopen BOM/DEL-EWR nonstop routings.
 
jayunited
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:12 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Why is UA cancelling while AC is still flying? Flights (EWR-DEL vs YYZ-DEL) are similar in length...


If you look at all DEL- North America flights none of them with the exception of AI's DEL-SFO at this point in time are operating as a nonstop, they all having to make tech stops. AC DEL-YYZ flight diverted to YVR and if you look at the flight path it didn't fly over Pakistani airspace.

Here is the situation, for over a month UA82 has operated nonstop from EWR but do to the Pakistani airspace closure the block time for UA82 has increase to 14 hours 55 minutes which is a 1 hour 30 minutes of additional flying, which requires additional fuel. On a normal day before the closure the average gate fuel for UA82 was around 255,000 pounds now a normal average gate fuel for UA82 (if the flight plan takes the flight over Iran) is 273,000 pounds. However if the captain decides he or she is not comfortable flying over Iran and wants a flight plan that avoids Iranian airspace the gate fuel goes up to around 280,000 pounds. All of this additional fuel has a cost associate with it cost that for now UA has been eating hoping the situation would be resolved quickly.
Also with 280,000 pounds of jet fuel you are looking at a sever weight restriction. For a GE 77E your removing at least 25-35 passengers from a the flight especially if your booked full and we are just talking about the the outbound flight. The inbound flight UA83 is just as bad if not worst because a tech stop has to be made. Even if the GE 77E could do DEL-EWR nonstop with the required reroutes the flights plan exceeds max CCO which is why the tech stop became necessary remember any India - East Coast flight is fighting a head wind for most of the flight. The tech stop cost money and associated cost related with a full re-crew and the disruption caused to the 77E schedule has become to much.

Also keep in mind March 31 began IATA summer and there was a schedule change so while UA could more easily absorb the disruption to the 77E schedule from February 27th to March 30th. Everything changed on March 31st with the schedule changed which resulted a slight increase in widebody utilization, widebody utilization will only increase more and more as we inch closer to the busy summer travel season. Hopefully Pakistani airspace will be reopened fully within 2 weeks if it isn't I would not expect to see EWR-DEL-EWR return until it does.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:12 pm

Already these are low margin routes, very easy to turn red even if one variable changes. It is better off feed LH at FRA. *A also need to find a new local codeshare partner in India. Philosophically, 6E is a better fit, but customers may prefer Vistara. As someone put it, UA wouldn't touch AI with ten-foot-pole. Good for AI.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:30 pm

Pakistan airspace has reportedly opened. Minutes ago.

What happens now?
Vahroone
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:55 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Pakistan airspace has reportedly opened. Minutes ago.

What happens now?

Please read all the posts. Two airways in Pakistan have reopened. These airways provide no relief to the DEL flight, they do, however, allow the BOM flight to operate back to EWR non-stop.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:57 pm

voxkel wrote:
UA really needs to just sub in 789 for the India routes. It should be able to operate nonstop both ways. Polaris is not needed IMO on the India routes, but a nonstop from India to the US matters a lot. It would be very desirable if UA uses 789 to reopen BOM/DEL-EWR nonstop routings.

BOM is now flying nonstop on the return to EWR as Pakistan has opened one westbound airway.
 
nname
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Why is UA cancelling while AC is still flying? Flights (EWR-DEL vs YYZ-DEL) are similar in length...


If you look at all DEL- North America flights none of them with the exception of AI's DEL-SFO at this point in time are operating as a nonstop, they all having to make tech stops. AC DEL-YYZ flight diverted to YVR and if you look at the flight path it didn't fly over Pakistani airspace.


AC also fly DEL-YVR (AC45) and it had been non-stop for a while now.

As for AC43 (DEL-YYZ), it probably wouldn't count as "diversion" anymore, as the DEL-YVR segment now also opened for reservation.
 
VTORD
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:13 pm

Irehdna wrote:
I actually don't think BOM will last much longer, especially without DEL. Now BOM is at least 5-6 hrs from the nearest UA destination (SIN), may be risky in case of an emergency. (From personal experience BOM flights would sometimes reroute to DEL if there was an emergency at BOM.) Not to mention for what ever reason AI can operate BOM-IAD/EWR nonstop while UA stops in FRA. (Probably crew time issues more than range)

What are you going on about? BOM "won't last" w/o DEL!? Is that why BOM was upgraded to Polaris equipped 77W while DEL has stayed on the 77E? And why in God's name will a EWR-BOM flight divert to SIN of all places? DEL, BLR, MAA, HYD and AMD are perfectly capable of serving UA's needs in the case of an emergency in BOM!!
 
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Irehdna
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:24 pm

VTORD wrote:
BLR, MAA, HYD and AMD are perfectly capable of serving UA's needs in the case of an emergency in BOM!!


I don't recall UA ever diverting to one of these airports if they couldn't land at BOM, they have an operation at DEL so they many times diverted to DEL due to severe weather and other reasons, even though that is further from BOM than HYD/AMD. Of course UA won't divert to SIN, the point is that they have limited options.

When the PK airspace closed UA India flights turned around and flew to LHR/FRA instead of landing in Russia because they have operations there and could take care of the situation more easily.

Also, UA upgraded to 77W because they have to compete with AI which already operates nonstop (and has better timing for many people, especially those starting at EWR). No direct competition to DEL. Despite both being in *A, I don't see them interlining/codesharing anytime soon.
Last edited by Irehdna on Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:29 pm

nname wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Why is UA cancelling while AC is still flying? Flights (EWR-DEL vs YYZ-DEL) are similar in length...


If you look at all DEL- North America flights none of them with the exception of AI's DEL-SFO at this point in time are operating as a nonstop, they all having to make tech stops. AC DEL-YYZ flight diverted to YVR and if you look at the flight path it didn't fly over Pakistani airspace.


AC also fly DEL-YVR (AC45) and it had been non-stop for a while now.

As for AC43 (DEL-YYZ), it probably wouldn't count as "diversion" anymore, as the DEL-YVR segment now also opened for reservation.


Actually it seems that AC43 is now solely DEL-YVR. No YYZ anymore, per FR24.

So I guess this means 10x DEL-YVR per week!

If the closure lasts more than 2 more weeks, I am interested to see if anything would happen to UA's SFO-DEL proposed flight. SFO-DEL is 18.5hr on AI, longest than SQ EWR-SIN for comparison. I don't think 789 would have the legs for that flight.
 
xxcr
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Would it help if UA added a SFO-BOM/DEL flight?
 
COEWR787
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:05 pm

It should be noted that EWR - DEL UA flight operated for years before EWR - BOM was added. Why would EWR - BOM require EWR - DEL to be operating is unfathomable. But I guess whatever rocks ones boat. :)
 
IndyHoosier
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:35 pm

Irehdna wrote:
I actually don't think BOM will last much longer, especially without DEL. Now BOM is at least 5-6 hrs from the nearest UA destination (SIN), may be risky in case of an emergency. (From personal experience BOM flights would sometimes reroute to DEL if there was an emergency at BOM.) Not to mention for what ever reason AI can operate BOM-IAD/EWR nonstop while UA stops in FRA. (Probably crew time issues more than range)


This makes absolutely no sense at all. If there is an emergency, a plane is going to land at the closest airport they are able to. By your logic, routes like ATL-JNB wouldn't be able to exist.
 
IndyHoosier
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:36 pm

xxcr wrote:
Would it help if UA added a SFO-BOM/DEL flight?


SFO-DEL starts on December 5.
 
VTORD
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:35 pm

Irehdna wrote:

I don't recall UA ever diverting to one of these airports if they couldn't land at BOM, they have an operation at DEL so they many times diverted to DEL due to severe weather and other reasons, even though that is further from BOM than HYD/AMD. Of course UA won't divert to SIN, the point is that they have limited options.

Fine. But these are exceptional conditions and I am sure the route planners at UA have taken that in to account. The options might be limited but they are there. SIN shouldn't even be brought in to the conversation!!

Irehdna wrote:
Also, UA upgraded to 77W because they have to compete with AI which already operates nonstop (and has better timing for many people, especially those starting at EWR). No direct competition to DEL. Despite both being in *A, I don't see them interlining/codesharing anytime soon.

AI191 BOM 01:30 - EWR 07:55
AI144 EWR 11:59 - BOM 12:31

UA49 BOM 23:30 - EWR 05:30
UA48 EWR 20:10 - BOM 20:50

Are AI's timings really that much more convenient?
And UA decided to compete against an airline that doesn't care how much money it loses on a route that simply wouldn't be viable without it's other route by upgrading to their premium product simply so that they could compete in the non-stop space? BOM is an ex-CO route which has existed since 2008 (then 9W used to fly to EWR via BRU as well). If it wasn't doing well, it would have been axed a long time ago.
 
N649DL
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:20 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I have always been fascinated with EWR and its flights to India - it has (at least in the recent past) been able to sustain not one, not two, but three daily non-stops to the subcontinent. To the best of my knowledge, even JFK didn't have this many non-stops. That's impressive!

As for the rest of the U.S.-Delhi market on United, c'est la vie kids. I can't imagine it would be too difficult to re-route many on LH, but it might mean a double-connect somewhere for a few. Star Alliance FF's will still be getting their miles...


I've always been curious about if EWR-DEL exists on UA as it's a historic route to a fortress hub (CO) with lots of cheap competition at JFK and no other US major carriers making NYC-India work year-round. Not to mention AA's failure out in Chicago on the route over a decade ago.

However, UA did upgrade the route to true Polaris metal recently and was one of the first priorities to do so. That wouldn't happen had the numbers not been there.
 
voxkel
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:05 pm

I was always curious about UA overflight over Iran, I always thought they couldn't do it so had to route north through Pakistan or west towards the Arabian peninsula.
 
Judge1310
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:39 pm

Irehdna wrote:
VTORD wrote:
BLR, MAA, HYD and AMD are perfectly capable of serving UA's needs in the case of an emergency in BOM!!


I don't recall UA ever diverting to one of these airports if they couldn't land at BOM, they have an operation at DEL so they many times diverted to DEL due to severe weather and other reasons, even though that is further from BOM than HYD/AMD. Of course UA won't divert to SIN, the point is that they have limited options.

When the PK airspace closed UA India flights turned around and flew to LHR/FRA instead of landing in Russia because they have operations there and could take care of the situation more easily.

Also, UA upgraded to 77W because they have to compete with AI which already operates nonstop (and has better timing for many people, especially those starting at EWR). No direct competition to DEL. Despite both being in *A, I don't see them interlining/codesharing anytime soon.


Actually, UA has diverted into other Northern Indian airports in the past -- where a flight diverts to is determined by conditions, air field compatibility, and discussions between Dispatch and Crew. A diversion into a station operated by the airline is the ideal option, in the end.
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:53 am

voxkel wrote:
UA really needs to just sub in 789 for the India routes. It should be able to operate nonstop both ways. Polaris is not needed IMO on the India routes, but a nonstop from India to the US matters a lot. It would be very desirable if UA uses 789 to reopen BOM/DEL-EWR nonstop routings.

This isn't an aircraft range issue. This is a crew legality issue. Flights westbound and eastbound for DEL exceed the maximum FAR flight duty period (FDP). The FAA hasn't granted us an FRMS exemption for these flights like they have with the SYD and SIN flights.

The 777's are perfectly capable, the legal crew time isn't.
Last edited by OneSexyL1011 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:57 am

Irehdna wrote:
VTORD wrote:
BLR, MAA, HYD and AMD are perfectly capable of serving UA's needs in the case of an emergency in BOM!!


I don't recall UA ever diverting to one of these airports if they couldn't land at BOM, they have an operation at DEL so they many times diverted to DEL due to severe weather and other reasons, even though that is further from BOM than HYD/AMD. Of course UA won't divert to SIN, the point is that they have limited options.

When the PK airspace closed UA India flights turned around and flew to LHR/FRA instead of landing in Russia because they have operations there and could take care of the situation more easily.


We have diverted to AMD, HYD and ATQ on several occasions over the years. However we usually carry enough gas to use BOM as an alternate for DEL and vise versa if payload permits.

If needed, we will still operate diversions into DEL regardless of the status of the EWR-DEL flight.

The BOM flight isn't going anywhere and we're currently able to run the round trip without much issue now that we have available westbound airways and Iran overflight permission. UAL48/49 are here to stay.
 
voxkel
Posts: 125
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:46 am

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
voxkel wrote:
UA really needs to just sub in 789 for the India routes. It should be able to operate nonstop both ways. Polaris is not needed IMO on the India routes, but a nonstop from India to the US matters a lot. It would be very desirable if UA uses 789 to reopen BOM/DEL-EWR nonstop routings.

This isn't an aircraft range issue. This is a crew legality issue. Flights westbound and eastbound for DEL exceed the maximum FAR flight duty period (FDP). The FAA hasn't granted us an FRMS exemption for these flights like they have with the SYD and SIN flights.

The 777's are perfectly capable, the legal crew time isn't.


Ok thanks! Out of curiosity is the max FDP longer for routes like EWR/ORD-HKG, which are also on 77E/W? Or is the FDP not to specific to India?
 
jayunited
Posts: 2140
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:51 pm

voxkel wrote:
OneSexyL1011 wrote:
voxkel wrote:
UA really needs to just sub in 789 for the India routes. It should be able to operate nonstop both ways. Polaris is not needed IMO on the India routes, but a nonstop from India to the US matters a lot. It would be very desirable if UA uses 789 to reopen BOM/DEL-EWR nonstop routings.

This isn't an aircraft range issue. This is a crew legality issue. Flights westbound and eastbound for DEL exceed the maximum FAR flight duty period (FDP). The FAA hasn't granted us an FRMS exemption for these flights like they have with the SYD and SIN flights.

The 777's are perfectly capable, the legal crew time isn't.


Ok thanks! Out of curiosity is the max FDP longer for routes like EWR/ORD-HKG, which are also on 77E/W? Or is the FDP not to specific to India?


I think a lot of it has to do with crew rest periods while away from home base. Flights like EWR/ORD-HKG the crew rest time in HKG is something close to 38-40 hours. SFO-SIN and IAH-SYD the crew rest time while away from home base is is little over 48 hours. By comparison EWR-India the crew rest time in India is only 27-29 hours before they are back in the flight deck flying home to EWR. Why EWR-India has such a short layover I don't know but the pilots must have agreed to a shorter lay over period, or perhaps even wanted a shorter layover period because their layover time in India is the same as pilots flying EWR/IAD/ORD-Europe. Whatever the case and however it came about UA's EWR-India flights are extremely popular with senior 777 pilots, they get their hours in quickly and their not away from home for long periods of time.
That being said that shorten layover effects CCO "critical crew off" time in fact before the airspace closure if there was some type of delay out of EWR that would then impact the return flight out of India it isn't uncommon for FODM to request dispatch give them a fast flight plan especially if crew scheduling did not rest reset the entire flight crew. Rest reset sounds easy but its difficult to do when your trying to reach 4 pilots half a world away. If 1 pilot out of the 4 man/woman crew doesn't acknowledge, meaning crew scheduling didn't personally touch base with them to advise of the new departure time, the original CCO stands. For flights like HKG-ORD/EWR, SYD-IAH, or SIN-SFO UA can take a grounds delay of about 2-3 hours before having to ask the crew to waive or extend to max duty day and still operate nonstop this also takes into account these flights are a bit shorter aided by the jet stream. India-EWR flights can sustain perhaps a hour delay before UA has to ask the crew to waive. But in India especially DEL your taxi out time can easily exceed 40-50 minutes. (And the ATC desk at Willis can contact DEL ATC and request expedited handling to the runway 9 times out of 10 DEL ATC will ignore that request and DEL is more congested than BOM). So if the flight was already delayed a hour off the gate and you have a 40 minute or more taxi time and crew was not rest reset that flight will come back to the gate and cancel. The crew isn't legal to fly do to the fact that plane is not in the air before the crew exceeds their original CCO or as the FAA refers to it as flight duty period.

Now take all of this information and include an extensive reroute around closed Pakistani airspace and it become crystal clear that no matter the equipment type there is no way to operate DEL-EWR nonstop without exceeding CCO its literally impossible. Even with an on-time departure and for the sake or argument DEL ATC expedites UA83 to the runway you've already exceed CCO before the wheels leave the pavement do to the necessary reroute and the fuel required to fly nonstop would probably mean leaving at least 50-60 passengers and all the cargo behind do to the severity of the weight restriction.
 
User avatar
OneSexyL1011
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:46 pm

voxkel wrote:
OneSexyL1011 wrote:
voxkel wrote:
UA really needs to just sub in 789 for the India routes. It should be able to operate nonstop both ways. Polaris is not needed IMO on the India routes, but a nonstop from India to the US matters a lot. It would be very desirable if UA uses 789 to reopen BOM/DEL-EWR nonstop routings.

This isn't an aircraft range issue. This is a crew legality issue. Flights westbound and eastbound for DEL exceed the maximum FAR flight duty period (FDP). The FAA hasn't granted us an FRMS exemption for these flights like they have with the SYD and SIN flights.

The 777's are perfectly capable, the legal crew time isn't.


Ok thanks! Out of curiosity is the max FDP longer for routes like EWR/ORD-HKG, which are also on 77E/W? Or is the FDP not to specific to India?

JayUnited's post gives a lot of info as to why. To add to his, the FDP can also be dependant on departure time. The HKG flights leave much earlier in the day, so crew fatigue is viewed as less of a risk compared to the late evening departures. Hence the more restrictive FDP. If the India flight left 3 hours earlier, their FDP would be extended.

There are a lot of details and specifics within FAR 117 and the pilot contract that dictate legality and contractual requirements. I am no expert of either of the two, but I have a high level of understanding.

The DEL/BOM flights are the most restrictive crew flights in the airline due to a.combination of departure times + layover rest.
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:57 am

Suspension extended.


Our EWR-DEL (New Delhi) service will remain suspended through at least May 8 (eastbound)/May 9 (westbound).
As previously stated, we are monitoring the situation and have remained in close contact with government officials as well as our international flying partners. We are also providing alternate travel options for customers scheduled to fly with us between EWR and DEL during this period. Customers can visit united.com or check our mobile app for the latest updates.
 
yashk
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:58 am

I know few people who were booked on this flight and United refused to put them onto other flights. They were refunded and had to buy super expensive tickets. One guy had booked way in advance and got a round trip for $1800 with one way in business and he had to buy a $2000 united ticket to delhi via Bombay in economy.
 
User avatar
yeogeo
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL to 8th of May

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:21 pm

"United’s suspension earlier this month of nonstop service between Newark Liberty International Airport and Delhi, India has been extended through at least July 2. {The suspension} has now grown to at least three months, because air space continues to be closed over Pakistan and seasonal winds remain unfavorable".

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... j=87878231
Last edited by yeogeo on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LHUSA
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:15 am

Re: UA suspends EWR-DEL for two weeks from 4/5

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:34 pm

yashk wrote:
I know few people who were booked on this flight and United refused to put them onto other flights. They were refunded and had to buy super expensive tickets. One guy had booked way in advance and got a round trip for $1800 with one way in business and he had to buy a $2000 united ticket to delhi via Bombay in economy.


There must have been more to those requests then... like asking for specific flights out of policy, or business class on the applicable star alliance carriers were full that day. Passengers are indeed being proactively re-accommodated on star alliance partners. $1800 RT in business sounds like a consolidator fare, which are riddled with heavy restrictions, restrictions that should be fully understood at time of booking.

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