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JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:33 pm
by jumbojet
Mods, feel free to merge with the All Hands thread but I thought this was interesting, a little blurb in a boarding area article that said Blue is interested in widebodies, the A330 or B787 if London is a success. That is very interesting and they obviously must feel success is a lock and that they want to play with the big boys on a more serious level. Seems they want to shed their coy little blue image once and for all and be considered a big boy themselves.

So let the speculation begin...If they are successful in London, will they go for the A330 or the B787 and,

will they fly those widebodies over the Pacific; TYO, ICN, China etc?

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:37 pm
by Scarebus34
You could have at least linked the article?

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:37 pm
by tphuang
no, they have no such ambitions. I also don't see any reason for widebodies in the near future unless there is merger with HA. XLR will be able to do every plausible mission they need at this point.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:53 pm
by flyby519
tphuang wrote:
no, they have no such ambitions. I also don't see any reason for widebodies in the near future unless there is merger with HA. XLR will be able to do every plausible mission they need at this point.


The only justification I could see is slot/gate constraints in focus cities, as well as constraints in prime European airports. To make the most of those facilities a widebody would make sense. If they had unlimited slots/gates then yes, XLR hourly service would be great.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:54 pm
by jumbojet
Scarebus34 wrote:
You could have at least linked the article?


sorry, here you go...

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... ouncement/

about half way down, underneath the two pictures...


I suppose this could all be a cruel trick from JetBlue, but I doubt it. Rumors of European service have been going on too long. One self-identified JetBlue crewmember even emailed me yesterday with the following:
Crewmember London brief has already been done. Boston to Heathrow on the A321XLR with mint configuration to start (no date set, waiting for new 321). Widebodies being looked at for fleet expansion if London is a success (330 and 787).

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:56 pm
by jumbojet
tphuang wrote:
no, they have no such ambitions. I also don't see any reason for widebodies in the near future unless there is merger with HA. XLR will be able to do every plausible mission they need at this point.


You never know, if its a huge success and makes tons of money, then why not? It could be more near term than you think.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:07 pm
by EK77WNH
This all sounds like PeopleExpress, 2019 style.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:12 pm
by Brickell305
All this talk of B6 going transatlantic when I feel like there's so much they still have left on the table right here domestically especially out of So. Fla.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:04 pm
by Boof02671
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:06 pm
by ikolkyo
I think if the 797 makes it to market ( I think it will). It will nice transition aircraft for them. Build up the routes either A321 for now and eventually scale up to the 797. A321 to A330/787 is a massive jump without fully establishing anything. WOW is a great example of that.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:14 pm
by Super80Fan
tphuang wrote:
no, they have no such ambitions. I also don't see any reason for widebodies in the near future unless there is merger with HA. XLR will be able to do every plausible mission they need at this point.


I didn't realize you worked in a senior position in the planning/network departments at B6. I'm sure they aren't going to be very happy that you are sharing confidential information that you are 100% certain about.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:17 pm
by lowfareair
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One. They can buy them
Two. They are getting LRs and I believe the Neos could do BOS-LON.
Three. I don't know much about ETOPS certification, but NE US to Europe flying really only requires ETOPS 120/138. WN needed 180 for Hawaii, which is a much more stringent certification. If B6 doesn't have ETOPS already, they can (relatively) easily get certified for 120.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:22 pm
by A388
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One: you have a point, I agree. Those slots are (very) difficult to get but probably not impossible if they pay for them (heavily if they want to go to LHR).
Two: They can change their A321NEO order to include a few A321NEOXLR versions, not difficult to do
Three: If they will go transatlantic they will get their operations ETOPS certified, this might not be easy but it's also not difficult to get.

Let's see if they will do this. I'm still skeptical but it might as well happen.

A388

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:25 pm
by Dieuwer
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One, Two, Three: Jetblue buys an airline which provides all three.

BINGO!!

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:26 pm
by Boof02671
lowfareair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One. They can buy them
Two. They are getting LRs and I believe the Neos could do BOS-LON.
Three. I don't know much about ETOPS certification, but NE US to Europe flying really only requires ETOPS 120/138. WN needed 180 for Hawaii, which is a much more stringent certification. If B6 doesn't have ETOPS already, they can (relatively) easily get certified for 120.

It takes a year or more to develop an ETOPS program, get everyone trained and get FAA approval.

ETOPS planes have different equipment then a non-ETOPS plane.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:27 pm
by Boof02671
Dieuwer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One, Two, Three: Jetblue buys an airline which provides all three.

BINGO!!

It’s not that easy. The FAA just doesn’t transfer ETOPS.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:30 pm
by Veigar
lol Is all jetBlue does involve vaguely hinting at something that ends up never happening?

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:43 pm
by Boof02671
They don’t own any ETOPS qualified planes.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:01 pm
by N757ST
Boof02671 wrote:
They don’t own any ETOPS qualified planes.


Etops is mostly a maintenance program. The a320/21 ceo and neo are certified for etops operations.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:04 pm
by Boof02671
They have to be ordered for ETOPS as some components are different, and you just don’t buy an ETOPS plane and are allowed to fly it.

Radios are different, rafts etc.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:09 pm
by winginit
jumbojet wrote:
a little blurb in a boarding area article that said Blue is interested in widebodies, the A330 or B787 if London is a success.


Let's be specific here, the article says that a self-identified JetBlue crewmember sent an email saying JetBlue was looking into widebodies for fleet expansion if London is a success.

I had thought we learned long ago on A.net to never put any serious consideration into cabin crew rumors.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:15 pm
by Blueknows
What if I told you things have been happening right under your eyes. Something's have been happening for years. They are just not talking about April 10!!!

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:18 pm
by EWR22LAS25
It's actually Robin and Joanna's preference to go with the A330 given the deal that Airbus is offering them to take that over the 321. The board is pushing the narrowbody option right now until B6 proves that they can be profitable trans-atlantic.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:42 pm
by spinkid
EK77WNH wrote:
This all sounds like PeopleExpress, 2019 style.



You clearly haven't flown their MINT product. There is a reason they are competing quite well on Trans Cons.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:49 pm
by tb727
Baldanza said it won't happen. I'd take what he says as the most likely thing to happen there.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:28 pm
by longhauler
Boof02671 wrote:
They have to be ordered for ETOPS as some components are different, and you just don’t buy an ETOPS plane and are allowed to fly it.

Radios are different, rafts etc.

I think you would be very surprised how easy it actually is to convert an airframe to ETOPS standards. Especially the A320 series aircraft.

Air Canada converted two mid 90s vintage A319s to ETOPS 120 standards for the YYT-LHR route. It took about a week and about CAD1M for both, including licencing for the higher MTOW.

Cargo smoke detection and fire suppression is already operational. For ETOPS 120 and higher, a larger bottle is installed. Slide/rafts in place of slides is an easy installation as the door is already prepped for it. Beacons/survival gear is mounted fore and aft depending on the interior.

HF radios, 8.33 spacing and CPDLC must be installed. Depending on what the aircraft already had, in can be a "plug in" installation like the 8.33 spacing, CPDLC requires ADS as well. Most newer A320 series aircraft are already equipped.

However ...

I see Jetblue A320 series aircraft in the Caribbean all the time. That means (at least some) of their aircraft are already equipped with slide/rafts, HF radios, survival gear. Maybe even CPDLC, it sure makes New York Oceanic a breeze.

As they are doing Caribbean operations already, a lot of the actual training is already in place.

But honestly, if these rumours are true (big if), then the ETOPS FAA certification process has already begun! Getting the aircraft ready would be the easy part.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:34 pm
by Boof02671
They still have to develop a program, train employees, do proving runs and get FAA approval. It took WN two to three years.

I don’t understand why you all can’t grasp those facts.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:36 pm
by Boof02671
You can be EOW to fly to the Caribbean, you don’t need rafts just vests.

There employees ARE NOT ETOPS trained nor are they being trained. EOW is totally different from ETOPS.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:52 pm
by CaptCoolHand
Boof02671 wrote:
They still have to develop a program, train employees, do proving runs and get FAA approval. It took WN two to three years.

I don’t understand why you all can’t grasp those facts.


How long did it take Virgin America to get their ETOPS.... and how’d they do it?

Hint. Blue jet hired the same company and didn’t start yesterday.

Settle down Francis.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:54 pm
by Boof02671
WN took 18-24 months to achieve ETOPS certification and it’s only for the 738.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:59 pm
by longhauler
Boof02671 wrote:
They still have to develop a program, train employees, do proving runs and get FAA approval. It took WN two to three years.

I say again, if these rumours are true, the process has already been started. I mentioned the Caribbean as an example of a area of travel requiring extra training. Just add ETOPS training to an already existing curriculum. FAA will dictate what is required.

When the ETOPS A319s were added to our fleet, it initially requried a day of training. 4 hours in the classroom and one simulator session. On going recurrent training adjusted the simulator sessions/questions to include ETOPS scenarios. So, it would take 6 months using the regular cycle to train pilots ... quicker if required.

Boof02671 wrote:
You can be EOW to fly to the Caribbean, you don’t need rafts just vests.

That is true you don't need rafts to fly to the Caribbean. Hell, you don't even need HF radios. You could always fly around WATRS. But ... JetBlue doesn't. The aircraft they fly to the Caribbean are already equipped with slide/rafts (plus regular rafts in the A321) and HF radios, etc.

Boof02671 wrote:
I don’t understand why you all can’t grasp those facts.

Indeed

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:59 pm
by CaptCoolHand
Boof02671 wrote:
WN took 18-24 months to achieve ETOPS certification and it’s only for the 738.


Not following what your point is....

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:09 pm
by impilot
Boof seems a little wound up about jetblue expansion. He’s really gonna blow a gasket when they actually do fly to Europe.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:09 pm
by F27500
This is like an April Fools thread, isn't it ?

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:44 pm
by PlymSpotter
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


Regarding slots at LHR or LGW, a lot of people are presuming they will be difficult to obtain and expensive. Both airports' slot allocations are coordinated and feature a new entrant's scheme, which sees 50% of all new or newly available slots prioritised for airlines who are looking to enter these markets. These slots are essentially 'free', excluding the normal fees / charges. As a new entrant, I expect JetBlue to take full advantage of this.

The A321NEO features a still air range of 3,500nm. This is sufficient to serve BOS-LON, even without the rumoured LR conversion.

On ETOPS, who says they even need it to launch? As an initial entry point, they could partner with an already compliant ACMI carrier like HiFly, either using A321s or part of HiFly's sizable order for A330-900s.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:17 pm
by Ziyulu
I find it funny how some claim the 797 will work for B6. You don't even know what the aircraft looks like, its capacity, its range, etc.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:31 pm
by impilot
Ziyulu wrote:
I find it funny how some claim the 797 will work for B6. You don't even know what the aircraft looks like, its capacity, its range, etc.


I think the assumption of most people claiming the 797 would work for B6 is that it will be a 767-sized MoM with 4-5k nm range, but with much better economics and more modern stuff in it than a 767. Basically saying it’s a logical step up from a NB but not as big of an airplane as a 788/789/339 if the economics/LFs don’t support something that large. Sure no one knows what a 797 will be, but people can make pretty good guesses based on the the fact that the 757/767s are aging and that at least 2 the US3 have expressed interest in a replacement for them with the 797. Doubt it’d be much different than what people think it’ll be.....

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:39 pm
by emuwarveteran
Why do jetBlue threads always have to be so messy?

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:45 pm
by strfyr51
lowfareair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One. They can buy them
Two. They are getting LRs and I believe the Neos could do BOS-LON.
Three. I don't know much about ETOPS certification, but NE US to Europe flying really only requires ETOPS 120/138. WN needed 180 for Hawaii, which is a much more stringent certification. If B6 doesn't have ETOPS already, they can (relatively) easily get certified for 120.



Relatively Easy you say? And you know this HOW? The Stringent conditions for ETOPS goes far beyond just having the Airplanes. It encompasses your operations, training, Maintenance, Engine performance (Overall Fleet) The Number of Inflight shutdowns and added Maintenance specifications FOR the ETOPS fleet including ETOPS certified parts and added Equipment. It is NOT insignificant and the FAA will be crawling all over them for quite a while. I see No reason why they can't qualify although it is NOT a Slam Dunk!! Starting with their Mai...ntenance OPS Specs

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:48 pm
by Boof02671
strfyr51 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
One. They don’t have slots
Two. They don’t have any planes to fly it.
Three. They are not an ETOPS qualified airline.


One. They can buy them
Two. They are getting LRs and I believe the Neos could do BOS-LON.
Three. I don't know much about ETOPS certification, but NE US to Europe flying really only requires ETOPS 120/138. WN needed 180 for Hawaii, which is a much more stringent certification. If B6 doesn't have ETOPS already, they can (relatively) easily get certified for 120.



Relatively Easy you say? And you know this HOW? The Stringent conditions for ETOPS goes far beyond just having the Airplanes. It encompasses your operations, training, Maintenance, Engine performance (Overall Fleet) The Number of Inflight shutdowns and added Maintenance specifications FOR the ETOPS fleet including ETOPS certified parts and added Equipment. It is NOT insignificant and the FAA will be crawling all over them for quite a while. I see No reason why they can't qualify although it is NOT a Slam Dunk!! Starting with their Mai...ntenance OPS Specs


Finally someone who gets it.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:50 pm
by strfyr51
Boof02671 wrote:
WN took 18-24 months to achieve ETOPS certification and it’s only for the 738.

WN could certify any other B737 if they chose to now that they already have the 738, They already Know the Drill...

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:55 pm
by timh4000
I don't see this as inconceivable by any means. It might take a few years to get everything in place, but why wouldn't B6want to expand? Why wouldn't they eventually be successful being certified? TBH I'm almost surprised at how long they spent flying only the 320 around. By now they might have some good cash flow, reasonable debt, so its possible they can afford to get bigger planes. And go through what it takes to get certified.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:17 am
by edealinfo
jumbojet wrote:
Mods, feel free to merge with the All Hands thread but I thought this was interesting, a little blurb in a boarding area article that said Blue is interested in widebodies, the A330 or B787 if London is a success. That is very interesting and they obviously must feel success is a lock and that they want to play with the big boys on a more serious level. Seems they want to shed their coy little blue image once and for all and be considered a big boy themselves.

So let the speculation begin...If they are successful in London, will they go for the A330 or the B787 and,

will they fly those widebodies over the Pacific; TYO, ICN, China etc?

when are they starting London...and from where? You should set the context in the OP.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:18 am
by Boof02671
They aren’t yet.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:30 am
by b747400erf
jumbojet wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
You could have at least linked the article?


sorry, here you go...

https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... ouncement/

about half way down, underneath the two pictures...


I suppose this could all be a cruel trick from JetBlue, but I doubt it. Rumors of European service have been going on too long. One self-identified JetBlue crewmember even emailed me yesterday with the following:
Crewmember London brief has already been done. Boston to Heathrow on the A321XLR with mint configuration to start (no date set, waiting for new 321). Widebodies being looked at for fleet expansion if London is a success (330 and 787).


A flight attendant created rumor is still the basis for topics on this site. But remember THE MEDIA are the uninformed rumor mongers!

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:50 am
by jfklganyc
emuwarveteran wrote:
Why do jetBlue threads always have to be so messy?



Such a great line!

It starts with the OP who regularly refers to JetBlue as “Blue” in his posts.

It digresses from there

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:51 am
by spacecadet
strfyr51 wrote:
Relatively Easy you say?


Nothing is "relatively easy" in aviation, but you act like this is an impossible mission that nobody's ever done before. Lots of airlines are ETOPS certified. B6 is no less capable of it than any other airline.

Getting ETOPS certified, flying routes to London and buying widebody aircraft are all perfectly reasonable actions for a growing airline.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:11 am
by Boof02671
Reasonable yes, easy no.

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:42 am
by Max Q
winginit wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
a little blurb in a boarding area article that said Blue is interested in widebodies, the A330 or B787 if London is a success.


Let's be specific here, the article says that a self-identified JetBlue crewmember sent an email saying JetBlue was looking into widebodies for fleet expansion if London is a success.

I had thought we learned long ago on A.net to never put any serious consideration into cabin crew rumors.



Enough said

Re: JetBlue Interested in Widebodies if London is a Success

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:50 am
by CaptCoolHand
Boof02671 wrote:
Reasonable yes, easy no.


So again ...

We know it too wn 3 big long years to ETOPS.

How long did it take VA?
Don’t want to field a question? ETOPS on airbus is an impossibility!?!? Dear lord it’ll take decades.

Come on man.