J343
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EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:42 pm

So Emirates has 6x daily flights to DXB from LHR and 3x daily flights from LGW and 1x daily from STN (correct me if I am wrong). How did EK secure all these slots with London airports being slot restricted?

London-Hong Kong is a fairly big market with CX serving LHR 5x daily and LGW 1x daily with 2x daily with BA, what are the odds of CX or BA adding extra frequency? And also, QR has 6x daily to DOH from LHR and 2x daily from LGW. How did QR and EK secure multiple frequencies from LGW to DOH and LHR respectively? London-Singapore is fairly big market too surely LGW-SIN will be possible in the future?
 
KingOrGod
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:49 pm

J343 wrote:
How did EK secure all these slots with London airports being slot restricted?


:dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign:
 
xwb777
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:57 pm

FYI, Emirates will be adding a second daily to London Stansted in summer 2019.
 
evanb
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:00 pm

The same way all other foreign airlines have. Their first slots were probably grandfathered; they may have picked up some slots set aside for new entrants; they pick up odd slots from time to time in the open allocation system; and they acquired them from other airlines for cash considerations. LHR is most scarce and likely required more purchases, LGW less so and I'm not sure if STN slots are so scare as to require them acquiring them.
 
Galwayman
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:09 pm

Is STN A380 ready ? Would be great to see EK A380s there
 
J343
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:09 pm

evanb wrote:
The same way all other foreign airlines have. Their first slots were probably grandfathered; they may have picked up some slots set aside for new entrants; they pick up odd slots from time to time in the open allocation system; and they acquired them from other airlines for cash considerations. LHR is most scarce and likely required more purchases, LGW less so and I'm not sure if STN slots are so scare as to require them acquiring them.


That's very informative- thank you. If I can remember, CX only used to serve LHR 3x daily and acquired QF and NZ slots when they ended LHR-HKG-AKL and MEL (QF).
 
J343
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:10 pm

Galwayman wrote:
Is STN A380 ready ? Would be great to see EK A380s there


I am not so sure but they are sending the B77Ws there. It will be interesting to see how STN-DXB is performing though.
 
J343
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:12 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
J343 wrote:
How did EK secure all these slots with London airports being slot restricted?


:dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign:


It does make me wonder if money and politics are involved. Also if certain countries are protective of their own national carriers, some countries have granted liberal rights to EK, they operate a lot of fifth freedom route i.e BKK-HKG, SIN-Australia, ATH-EWR. The latter baffles me the most especially with the US3 constantly crying foul over the ME3, most especially against QR and Air Italy's expansion in the US.
 
yulexpansion
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:16 pm

Don't forget Akbar Al Baker is part of Heathrow board of directors. Also, the head of active investments of QIA (Qatari Investment Authority) is also part of the same board. Not bad for such a small country.

I realize the post was about EK, but QR is much smaller and has a lot of slots too.
 
c933103
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:18 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
Don't forget Akbar Al Baker is part of Heathrow board of directors. Also, the head of active investments of QIA (Qatari Investment Authority) is also part of the same board. Not bad for such a small country.

I realize the post was about EK, but QR is much smaller and has a lot of slots too.

But EK have little to do with Qatar
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
evanb
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:28 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
Don't forget Akbar Al Baker is part of Heathrow board of directors. Also, the head of active investments of QIA (Qatari Investment Authority) is also part of the same board. Not bad for such a small country.

I realize the post was about EK, but QR is much smaller and has a lot of slots too.


That makes no difference since Heathrow has no say in how slots are allocated (same for Gatwick). There is an independent authority Airport Coordination Limited (ACL) who manage the allocation.
 
evanb
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:31 pm

J343 wrote:
That's very informative- thank you. If I can remember, CX only used to serve LHR 3x daily and acquired QF and NZ slots when they ended LHR-HKG-AKL and MEL (QF).


Some additional anecdotes. Many of the US3 have acquired slots on the open market. SQ acquired slots for an additional flight a few years back from SAA. The challenge for a slot aquisition is that they're time specific. For example, the SQ/SAA slots were a morning arrival in LHR and early evening departure. Those slots may not have worked for other carriers.
 
mandala499
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:41 pm

J343 wrote:
If I can remember, CX only used to serve LHR 3x daily

I remember the days when CX served LGW 2-3x daily before moving to LHR, and if I remember correctly, with 1x BA from LHR 1x BA from LGW and 1x BCAL from LGW... (those were the days!) And when CX added LHR flights, they partnered with Air Canada (used their gates and lounges) for a short while...

And back then, EK only had the 1-2x LHR plus 1-2x LGW daily... using A300-600s...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
vfw614
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:34 pm

Will be interesting to see how it plays out in the long-term as my educated guess is that at 6 daily flights LHR is maxed out as far as sensibly feeding the DXB hub is concerned. So unless they will run a flight more or less with identical timings of an existing flight or are happy to add a frequency catering for local traffic and those willing to have very long connections, further growth at LHR looks tricky. And once the A380 disappears and will need to be replaced by a smaller widebody (777-9 category), it will become really difficult to grow or even keep passenger numbers. So if in the future the need for additional capacity arises, I guess they will add frequencies at LGW first, the upgauge STN to an A380, add at LGW again and then grow at STN.
 
stylo777
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:04 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Will be interesting to see how it plays out in the long-term as my educated guess is that at 6 daily flights LHR is maxed out as far as sensibly feeding the DXB hub is concerned. So unless they will run a flight more or less with identical timings of an existing flight or are happy to add a frequency catering for local traffic and those willing to have very long connections, further growth at LHR looks tricky. And once the A380 disappears and will need to be replaced by a smaller widebody (777-9 category), it will become really difficult to grow or even keep passenger numbers. So if in the future the need for additional capacity arises, I guess they will add frequencies at LGW first, the upgauge STN to an A380, add at LGW again and then grow at STN.

normally, I would actually confirm your educated guess, but since we are talking EK and LHR here, I'm not sure about the saturation.
or let's put it this way: if there were slots available, EK would be jumping on it anytime and believe me, they would even make it work - it's called the EK-network effect.
in fact, a very late arrival to and early departure from LHR is kind of missing. it would be an overnighter.
 
skipness1E
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:34 pm

Emirates need to use the B77W to STN mainly as with LGW and LHR being mainly A380. the cargo uplift has to go somewhere!
BA are (allegedly) struggling somewhat on HKG as CX have flooded the market with capacity, 5x B77Ws and an A350 out of Gatters vs BA's twice daily A380/B77W combo.
 
J343
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:04 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Emirates need to use the B77W to STN mainly as with LGW and LHR being mainly A380. the cargo uplift has to go somewhere!
BA are (allegedly) struggling somewhat on HKG as CX have flooded the market with capacity, 5x B77Ws and an A350 out of Gatters vs BA's twice daily A380/B77W combo.


Struggling in the sense of yields/ profits or filling up the planes? I've taken LHR-HKG with BA so many times and both flights seem to be very busy, BA27 in particular. I always ask how full or busy a flight is and HKG seems to be consistently busy. CX on the other hand is a different story. I have taken CX252 quite a lot and it was never full, CX250 and CX256 always seem to be the busiest out of LHR.

I'm not sure about EK, I have heard people saying that some flights are only half full. I flew to DOH with QR twice in one month last year and upper deck Y was pretty much empty.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:10 pm

So the HKG fares in J should be a good bargin ?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:49 pm

J343 wrote:
evanb wrote:
The same way all other foreign airlines have. Their first slots were probably grandfathered; they may have picked up some slots set aside for new entrants; they pick up odd slots from time to time in the open allocation system; and they acquired them from other airlines for cash considerations. LHR is most scarce and likely required more purchases, LGW less so and I'm not sure if STN slots are so scare as to require them acquiring them.


That's very informative- thank you. If I can remember, CX only used to serve LHR 3x daily and acquired QF and NZ slots when they ended LHR-HKG-AKL and MEL (QF).


CX didn't get a slot from QF. They still own all four of their slots and lease two to BA.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
skipness1E
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:40 pm

J343 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Emirates need to use the B77W to STN mainly as with LGW and LHR being mainly A380. the cargo uplift has to go somewhere!
BA are (allegedly) struggling somewhat on HKG as CX have flooded the market with capacity, 5x B77Ws and an A350 out of Gatters vs BA's twice daily A380/B77W combo.


Struggling in the sense of yields/ profits or filling up the planes? I've taken LHR-HKG with BA so many times and both flights seem to be very busy, BA27 in particular. I always ask how full or busy a flight is and HKG seems to be consistently busy. CX on the other hand is a different story. I have taken CX252 quite a lot and it was never full, CX250 and CX256 always seem to be the busiest out of LHR.

I'm not sure about EK, I have heard people saying that some flights are only half full. I flew to DOH with QR twice in one month last year and upper deck Y was pretty much empty.

Yields apparently, but only quoting flyertalk.
CX252 is the daylight eastbound flight, most business travellers don’t want to lose the day travelling and so the overnights do better. Hence the CX257/238 and CX239/256 don’t offer first whereas the rest do.
 
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:07 pm

skipness1E wrote:
J343 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Emirates need to use the B77W to STN mainly as with LGW and LHR being mainly A380. the cargo uplift has to go somewhere!
BA are (allegedly) struggling somewhat on HKG as CX have flooded the market with capacity, 5x B77Ws and an A350 out of Gatters vs BA's twice daily A380/B77W combo.


Struggling in the sense of yields/ profits or filling up the planes? I've taken LHR-HKG with BA so many times and both flights seem to be very busy, BA27 in particular. I always ask how full or busy a flight is and HKG seems to be consistently busy. CX on the other hand is a different story. I have taken CX252 quite a lot and it was never full, CX250 and CX256 always seem to be the busiest out of LHR.

I'm not sure about EK, I have heard people saying that some flights are only half full. I flew to DOH with QR twice in one month last year and upper deck Y was pretty much empty.

Yields apparently, but only quoting flyertalk.
CX252 is the daylight eastbound flight, most business travellers don’t want to lose the day travelling and so the overnights do better. Hence the CX257/238 and CX239/256 don’t offer first whereas the rest do.


CX 252 is still overnight , it just leaves LHR at 12:20pm and arrives at 7:05am.
 
J343
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:18 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
J343 wrote:
evanb wrote:
The same way all other foreign airlines have. Their first slots were probably grandfathered; they may have picked up some slots set aside for new entrants; they pick up odd slots from time to time in the open allocation system; and they acquired them from other airlines for cash considerations. LHR is most scarce and likely required more purchases, LGW less so and I'm not sure if STN slots are so scare as to require them acquiring them.


That's very informative- thank you. If I can remember, CX only used to serve LHR 3x daily and acquired QF and NZ slots when they ended LHR-HKG-AKL and MEL (QF).


CX didn't get a slot from QF. They still own all four of their slots and lease two to BA.


Thank you for clarifying! In that case, how did CX manage to get an extra slot given how LHR is very slot restricted. The same goes with EK and EK are still wanting more slot, LHR is already an all A380 route.
 
J343
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Re: EK and London

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:20 pm

skipness1E wrote:
J343 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Emirates need to use the B77W to STN mainly as with LGW and LHR being mainly A380. the cargo uplift has to go somewhere!
BA are (allegedly) struggling somewhat on HKG as CX have flooded the market with capacity, 5x B77Ws and an A350 out of Gatters vs BA's twice daily A380/B77W combo.


Struggling in the sense of yields/ profits or filling up the planes? I've taken LHR-HKG with BA so many times and both flights seem to be very busy, BA27 in particular. I always ask how full or busy a flight is and HKG seems to be consistently busy. CX on the other hand is a different story. I have taken CX252 quite a lot and it was never full, CX250 and CX256 always seem to be the busiest out of LHR.

I'm not sure about EK, I have heard people saying that some flights are only half full. I flew to DOH with QR twice in one month last year and upper deck Y was pretty much empty.

Yields apparently, but only quoting flyertalk.
CX252 is the daylight eastbound flight, most business travellers don’t want to lose the day travelling and so the overnights do better. Hence the CX257/238 and CX239/256 don’t offer first whereas the rest do.


Interesting given that CX 250 is right in the middle of CX238 and CX256.
 
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:48 am

J343 wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
J343 wrote:
How did EK secure all these slots with London airports being slot restricted?


:dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign: :dollarsign:


It does make me wonder if money and politics are involved. Also if certain countries are protective of their own national carriers, some countries have granted liberal rights to EK, they operate a lot of fifth freedom route i.e BKK-HKG, SIN-Australia, ATH-EWR. The latter baffles me the most especially with the US3 constantly crying foul over the ME3, most especially against QR and Air Italy's expansion in the US.


Ask any American living through the 1970's oil embargoes about upsetting the controlling OPEC countries. If that region wants something they get it.
 
hz747300
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:13 am

VS also flies LHR-HKG. It seems there are 4-5x LHR-HKG on CX depending on the day, and I noticed that BA switched the A380 & B77W, used to be the 777 left first, now it leaves second. But still within 30 minutes of each.

Since this is about EK, I'm impressed with their London capacity. I'm just wondering if they can make LTN and/or LCY work too? For LCY, I am not sure the runway is long enough for departure, but should be ok for landings. They'll need to clear the ramp, at least 3-4 gates for their 777s, but they have dinero to make it happen.

I think the runway at LTN is too short to make it an effective stop, but perhaps they could get it done. EK makes a lot work that others can't.
Keep on truckin'...
 
p2c2e
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:30 am

hz747300 wrote:
VS also flies LHR-HKG. It seems there are 4-5x LHR-HKG on CX depending on the day, and I noticed that BA switched the A380 & B77W, used to be the 777 left first, now it leaves second. But still within 30 minutes of each.

Since this is about EK, I'm impressed with their London capacity. I'm just wondering if they can make LTN and/or LCY work too? For LCY, I am not sure the runway is long enough for departure, but should be ok for landings. They'll need to clear the ramp, at least 3-4 gates for their 777s, but they have dinero to make it happen.

I think the runway at LTN is too short to make it an effective stop, but perhaps they could get it done. EK makes a lot work that others can't.

So what you are saying is they can land at LCY but not leave. That would make for an interesting fleet management problem!
 
Cunard
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:47 am

mandala499 wrote:
J343 wrote:
If I can remember, CX only used to serve LHR 3x daily

I remember the days when CX served LGW 2-3x daily before moving to LHR, and if I remember correctly, with 1x BA from LHR 1x BA from LGW and 1x BCAL from LGW... (those were the days!) And when CX added LHR flights, they partnered with Air Canada (used their gates and lounges) for a short while...

And back then, EK only had the 1-2x LHR plus 1-2x LGW daily... using A300-600s...


Regarding CX and LGW.

CX inaugural flight from Hong Kong to LGW was on the 17 July 1980 HKG-BAH-LGW, the flight was originally three times weekly soon going daily within the year.

In 1982 after the acquistion of B742F G-KILO from British Airways Cathay Pacific Cargo was formed which flew HKG-FRA-LGW three times weekly.

In summer 1983 CX HKG-BAH-LGW had additional flight added three times a week using the B743 with an evening departure ex LGW with the original 11.00 departure remaining daily.

In 1985 CX HKG-BAH-LGW went double daily with a morning and late evening departure from LGW.

By the time CX moved to LHR when it was opened up to new entrants again by HM Government and the BAA in October 1991 CX was operating upto 18 flights a week between HKG and London with the then fairly new B744, twice daily passenger flights plus the additional four cargo flights operated by Cathay Pacific Cargo.

BCAL started LGW-DXB-HKG a few days after CX had started their own flights, originally with the DC10-30 but within a couple of weeks the flight was upgraded to the B742 with G-HUGE taking the honour of flying the route.

British Airways officially purchased BCAL in the August of 1988 and LGW-DXB-HKG remained for a couple of years in the airline's network after the merger/purchase of BCAL initially still as a BR flight code due to the bilaterals between Hong Kong and London.

British Airways never operated to Hong Kong from LGW until the merger took place with BCAL in 1988, upto that point it was just BCAL and CX flying between LGW and HKG.

Regarding EK and LGW

Emirates was founded in March 1985, the EK inaugural flight from DXB to LGW took place on the 03 July 1987 with the first of two brand new Airbus A310 aircraft ordered direct from Airbus, EK would eventually have ten Airbus A310 and three Airbus A310F aircraft in their fleet. These were the airline's first brand new purchased aircraft having previously used hand me downs from the likes of PIA who originally partnered with the UAE in setting up EK.

The first flight between from DXB to LGW took place on the 03 July 1987 with an Airbus A310 A6-EKA flight number EK001 departing DXB at 08.00 arrival at LGW at 11.45, it was flown daily.

It wasn't until the arrival of the first of six Airbus A300-600R aircraft at EK in 1989 that they were used on the daily flight between DXB to LGW along with the appearance of the A310.

When LHR was opened up to new entrants by HM Government and the former BAA in 1991 EK was one of the first airlines to obtain slots at the airport and they soon moved their daily DXB route from LGW to LHR in October 1991 only to return to LGW once again in 1995 with a daily flight alongside their existing LHR flight.

In the summer of 1995 Emirates was flying twice daily from DXB to London, LHR with the afternoon flight and LGW with a morning flight.

The first of 29 Airbus A330-200 arrived at EK in 1999 replacing the Airbus A300-600R on LGW/LHR to DXB.

THE REST IS HISTORY as they say :-)
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amc737
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:05 am

An excellent post by Cunard - just to add that the reason for the moves was the London Air Traffic Distribution rules ended in 1991 - previously this meant if an airline had not started Heathrow ops by 1978 they had to operate to Gatwick, this is why Air Malta then a new airline started Heathrow in 1974 while Cathay had to use Gatwick as its long hual operation started later. The exception to this rule was domestic flights so I believe Dan Air started Inverness Heathrow after 1978. I believe the rule was abolished as part of United and American getting Heathrow access when they bought Pan Am and TWA route authorities to allow a 2nd UK carrier Virgin to truly compete.

It’s hard to believe now that Heathrow stalwarts like Cathay and Emirates started at Gatwick, other carriers that moved in 1991 where All Nippon, Korean Air, Royal Brunei, Air China and Air Lanka. I may have missed some. Most airlines left Gatwick entirely, Emirates operated both for a while, then ended Gatwick before returning shortly afterwards. Obviously other bilaterals still applied so Continental, Delta etc still had to remain at Gatwick even though Heathrow was now “open”

Amc737
 
f4f3a
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:34 am

A friend of mine at ek ran a take off and landing calc for 777 and reckons you can get into ltn with near max zfw and fuel for dxb. I’m not sure whether ltn now can take a widebody in its stands as the east and north apron has been remarked since el al used widebodies. Smaller stands to accommodate wizz
 
Andy33
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:20 am

hz747300 wrote:
VS also flies LHR-HKG. It seems there are 4-5x LHR-HKG on CX depending on the day, and I noticed that BA switched the A380 & B77W, used to be the 777 left first, now it leaves second. But still within 30 minutes of each.

Since this is about EK, I'm impressed with their London capacity. I'm just wondering if they can make LTN and/or LCY work too? For LCY, I am not sure the runway is long enough for departure, but should be ok for landings. They'll need to clear the ramp, at least 3-4 gates for their 777s, but they have dinero to make it happen.

I think the runway at LTN is too short to make it an effective stop, but perhaps they could get it done. EK makes a lot work that others can't.


Any plane that uses LCY has to be capable of configuration for a 5.5 glideslope, otherwise it simply won't succeed in landing, at least not on the runway or in one piece. I seriously doubt if the 77W has that capability, and even if it does, there's also a weight limit because part of the runway, the taxiway that is under construction, and the hardstanding the plane would have to use are all built on piles driven into the base of a dock. The design loading for these areas will be to take aircraft that are physically capable of getting in and out, not every aircraft that exists. The place was built as a STOL-port and not even the most optimistic Boeing salesman would ever have described a 77W as an STOL aircraft.

So after EK has spent all that money bribing the airport management, NATS (UK ATC) and the UK CAA, and fighting off court injunctions from the Mayor of London and the London Borough of Newham, they will only find their inaugural flight has collided with one of the tall buildings surrounding the airport, the terminal building, run into the docks, or caused the runway to collapse - and if by some miracle none of this happens, they still can't take off again because the runway isn't long enough. If they want to fly to LCY, all they have to do is order some A221s, which are certified for and in regular use at LCY, or buy second hand A318s and make a refuelling stop somewhere in mainland Europe.
 
DH1Chipmunk
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:04 am

Slot details of the airlines being discussed here are:

Emirates - of their 6 x daily LHR slots, sources are:
- 2 x allocated for free from the pool in the 1990s
- 1 x from United around 1994
- 1 x from Air France in 2004
- 1 x from BMI in 2005
- 1 x from Air France in 2016

Qatar Airways - of their 6 x daily LHR slots, sources are:
- 2 x allocated for free from the pool by 2004
- 1 x from BMI in 2006
- 1 x from GB Airways in 2008
- 1 x from BMI in 2012
- 1 x from BA in 2014

Cathay have only bought 1 slot pair from Air New Zealand (when NZ pulled AKL-HKG-LHR). Singapore also bought 1 pair from SAA (as mentioned previously).

Also may be of interest, Etihad operate 3 x daily to LHR (evening slots allocated for free from the pool; morning and midday slots bought from Luxair in 2009). Etihad also have bought 3 x daily Jet Airways' slots and approx 5 x daily Alitalia slots (missing some weekend frequencies) that are leased back to Jet Airways and Alitalia respectively, so Etihad actually 'own' approx. 11 x daily LHR slots.
 
mandala499
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Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:57 am

Cunard wrote:
By the time CX moved to LHR when it was opened up to new entrants again by HM Government and the BAA in October 1991 CX was operating upto 18 flights a week between HKG and London with the then fairly new B744, twice daily passenger flights plus the additional four cargo flights operated by Cathay Pacific Cargo.

BCAL started LGW-DXB-HKG a few days after CX had started their own flights, originally with the DC10-30 but within a couple of weeks the flight was upgraded to the B742 with G-HUGE taking the honour of flying the route.

British Airways officially purchased BCAL in the August of 1988 and LGW-DXB-HKG remained for a couple of years in the airline's network after the merger/purchase of BCAL initially still as a BR flight code due to the bilaterals between Hong Kong and London.

British Airways never operated to Hong Kong from LGW until the merger took place with BCAL in 1988, upto that point it was just BCAL and CX flying between LGW and HKG.

Awesome thank you for that.
I flew the HKG-BAH-LGW several times back in those days, and also the LHR flights when they first started.
On the BCAL, loved seeing BCAL DC-10 and 742s there. And during the beginning and end of UK school holidays, you'd see some extra BA and BCAL flights... 747s... filled with school kids.

Cunard wrote:
The first flight between from DXB to LGW took place on the 03 July 1987 with an Airbus A310 A6-EKA flight number EK001 departing DXB at 08.00 arrival at LGW at 11.45, it was flown daily.

It wasn't until the arrival of the first of six Airbus A300-600R aircraft at EK in 1989 that they were used on the daily flight between DXB to LGW along with the appearance of the A310.

When LHR was opened up to new entrants by HM Government and the former BAA in 1991 EK was one of the first airlines to obtain slots at the airport and they soon moved their daily DXB route from LGW to LHR in October 1991 only to return to LGW once again in 1995 with a daily flight alongside their existing LHR flight.

In the summer of 1995 Emirates was flying twice daily from DXB to London, LHR with the afternoon flight and LGW with a morning flight.

Thanks again!!!! Brings back memories...
Apart from CX, I flew EK quite a few times too... LGW-DXB/DXB-CMB-SIN-CGK back in the LGW only days... (additional CGK flights were available as DXB-SIN-CGK in addition to the dwindling DXB-CMB-SIN-CGK, when EK first started flying to LHR on the 300-600).


Excellent history by Cunard! Much appreciated!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Cunard
Posts: 2479
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:59 am

amc737 wrote:
An excellent post by Cunard - just to add that the reason for the moves was the London Air Traffic Distribution rules ended in 1991 - previously this meant if an airline had not started Heathrow ops by 1978 they had to operate to Gatwick, this is why Air Malta then a new airline started Heathrow in 1974 while Cathay had to use Gatwick as its long hual operation started later. The exception to this rule was domestic flights so I believe Dan Air started Inverness Heathrow after 1978. I believe the rule was abolished as part of United and American getting Heathrow access when they bought Pan Am and TWA route authorities to allow a 2nd UK carrier Virgin to truly compete.

It’s hard to believe now that Heathrow stalwarts like Cathay and Emirates started at Gatwick, other carriers that moved in 1991 where All Nippon, Korean Air, Royal Brunei, Air China and Air Lanka. I may have missed some. Most airlines left Gatwick entirely, Emirates operated both for a while, then ended Gatwick before returning shortly afterwards. Obviously other bilaterals still applied so Continental, Delta etc still had to remain at Gatwick even though Heathrow was now “open”

Amc737


Thanks for appreciating my post but if I could just add to yours and make some comments.

The London Air Traffic Distribution rules were changed in early 1991 and we're implemented at the start of the IATA summer schedule in 1991 with the majority moving to LHR once they had suitable slots, Air New Zealand in particular didn't make the full move from LGW to LHR until 1994.

The change in the ruling allowed for London Heathrow Airport to be opened up to new airlines which had been previously forced to use London Gatwick Airport.

In early 1977 HM Government and the BAA declared that London Heathrow Airport was full and therefore from the start of the IATA summer season in 1977 all new international airline entrants would be made to use London Gatwick Airport.

At the time the BAA and the government were investing heavily at London Gatwick Airport making it a suitable alternative to the main London gateway if Heathrow and making it officially London's second airport and therefore wanting incoming airlines to use the new and upgraded facilities.

Air Malta started MLA-LHR on the 04 April 1974 so the change in the London Air Traffic Distribution rules did not apply in 1974, the same applies to National Airlines when they were awarded MIA-LHR in 1971 and Air Mauritius starting in 1975.

The London Air Traffic ruling did not apply to domestic flights from London Heathrow Airport.

In 1980 British Airways abandoned much of it's domestic flights when they retired the Viscount, this included several routes from London Heathrow Airport,

Several airlines were awarded the former British Airways routes starting at the start of the IATA summer schedule of 1980.

Air UK were awarded LHR-GCI.
British Midland Airways were awarded LHR to LBA and LPL.
Dan Air were awarded LHR-INN flying it upto three times daily with a BAC1-11.
Manx Air were awarded LHR-IOM.

The change in the London Air Traffic Distribution rules in 1991 did not apply to the incumbent airlines from the USA that were still forced to use London Gatwick Airport under the Bermuda II Agreement which was finally abolished in 2007 allowing some of them to be able to move from London Gatwick Airport to London Heathrow Airport at the start of IATA summer schedule of 2008.

If airlines such as Pan Am and TWA who were both grandfathered at London Heathrow Airport wanted to open up additional flights between airports in the USA and London that were listed under the Bermuda II Agreement they had to use London Gatwick Airport, that's why we saw Pan Am starting IAH-LGW in June 1980 as Houston under the former Bermuda II Agreement was not covered from London Heathrow Airport, in a similar way that we saw TWA start STL-LGW as St Louis was another airport not listed, that's why London Gatwick Airport had more airlines from the USA with more destinations in the USA than London Heathrow Airport did.

When London Gatwick Airport was made the official airport for all new international entrants entering the London market in 1977 it was a slow start at first but by 1980 the airport had quite a respectable long haul network with the expansion of BCAL and the entry of many international flag carriers from all over the world as well as the many North American airlines.

Just an example but I will give a quick glimpse back in time during the years from 1978 to 1983 regarding international long haul flights airlines starting operations at London Gatwick Airport including the destinations and the year that they started.

Previous to the London Air Traffic Distribution rules changing in 1977 London Gatwick Airport had a couple of international long haul airlines operating scheduled service including,

Air Malawi...Blantyre (commenced in 1974)
Alymeda...Aden (commenced in 1976)
British West Indian Airlines...Port of Spain (commenced 1971 moving to LHR in 1975)
Caribbean Airways...Barbados (Laker subsidiary, commenced in 1968)

1978

Avianca...Bogota
Braniff International...Dallas/Ft Worth
Delta...Atlanta
World Airways...Boston

1979

Air Lanka... Colombo

1980

Air Florida...Miami
Air Tanzania...Dar es Salaam
Air Zimbabwe...Harare
Cathay Pacific...Hong Kong
Garuda Indonesia...Jakarta
Northwest Orient...Minneapolis/St Paul
Pan Am...Houston
Philippine Airlines...Manila
Sierra Leone Airways...Freetown
Uganda Airlines...Entebbe

1981

Air Florida...Tampa
CAAC...Beijing
Cubana...Havana (semi-charter/scheduled)
Northwest Orient...Boston (replacing World Airways)
TWA...New York JFK
Western Airlines... Anchorage, Denver, Honolulu
World Airways...Baltimore

1982

Air India...Dehli (one season only)
Air New Zealand...Auckland via Los Angeles
American Airlines... Dallas/Ft Worth (replacing Braniff International)
Yemenia...Sanaa

1983

Cameroon Airlines...Douala
Caribbean Airways...Barbados
Air Seychelles...Mahe
Arrow Air...Denver (replacing Western Airlines), Tampa (replacing Air Florida)
Peoplexpress...Newark

Although not fully scheduled flights but during this period London Gatwick Airport saw many long haul airlines from north America operating various ABC Advanced Booking Schedules the most common with the most frequent schedules and sometimes with several flighs a day were,

CP Air...Calgary...Edmonton...Halifax...Montreal...Toronto...Vancouver...Winnipeg
Wardair...Calgary...Edmonton...Montreal...Toronto...Vancouver...Winnipeg

From 1983 onwards London Gatwick Airport had many more international long haul airlines starting flights although by September 1983 my plane spotting days were virtually over as I had gone to sea at 18yo to work on the Cunard liner Queen Elizabeth 2 although that didn't stop me enjoying the crew flights to all over the world often in business class and spending some quality time at JFK or Kai Tak when I had the opportunity -:)

Long haul international airlines that originally started operations at London Gatwick Airport after 1983 upto around the year 2000 included the following although I might have missed one or two.

Air Gabon
Air Afrique
Air Kazakhstan
Air Maldives
Air Mauritius
ANA All Nippon Airways
Azerbaijan Airlines
Continental Airlines
Eastern Airlines
Emirates
EVA Air
Korean Air
Piedmont Airlines
Qatar Airways
Royal Brunei Airlines
Royal Nepal Airlines
Transbrasil
US Air/Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines

I have a great affection for London Gatwick Airport and I personally enjoy reminiscing those years between 1979 and 1983 spending many an enjoyable day on the excellent and long gone viewing gallery.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
theaviator380
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:14 am

How CX are doing on HKG-LHR-HKG route?

I wasn't aware that they have 6 daily into LHR, 2 of the flights 20 mins apart :o
 
flyjay123
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:07 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:30 am

How could you miss Virgin Atlantic lol...
 
Cunard
Posts: 2479
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:42 am

I missed Air Gambia from my list dating from 1982, after taking time adding some further information including Air Gambia I just missed the cut off period to edit my post, anyway not to worry it was exhausting enough!

Flyjay123

Are you referring to my exhaustive post when you mentioned '' How could you miss Virgin Atlantic''?

If so there is a reason why I omitted Virgin Atlantic from my post and it's quite obvious!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
JibberJim
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:44 am

Andy33 wrote:
Any plane that uses LCY has to be capable of configuration for a 5.5 glideslope, otherwise it simply won't succeed in landing, at least not on the runway or in one piece. I seriously doubt if the 77W has that capability, and even if it does, there's also a weight limit because part of the runway, the taxiway that is under construction, and the hardstanding the plane would have to use are all built on piles driven into the base of a dock. The design loading for these areas will be to take aircraft that are physically capable of getting in and out, not every aircraft that exists. The place was built as a STOL-port and not even the most optimistic Boeing salesman would ever have described a 77W as an STOL aircraft.


Okay - So you're saying the 77W is out and they'll have to go straight to the 380!
 
Cunard
Posts: 2479
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:49 am

theaviator380 wrote:
How CX are doing on HKG-LHR-HKG route?

I wasn't aware that they have 6 daily into LHR, 2 of the flights 20 mins apart :o


HKG-LHR-HKG CX 5 x times daily B773
HKG-LHR-HKG CX 1 x times daily A350

CX must be doing alright on HKG-LHR-HKG with five flights a day and also being the market leader on the route.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
Posts: 2479
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:07 am

hz747300 wrote:
VS also flies LHR-HKG. It seems there are 4-5x LHR-HKG on CX depending on the day, and I noticed that BA switched the A380 & B77W, used to be the 777 left first, now it leaves second. But still within 30 minutes of each.

Since this is about EK, I'm impressed with their London capacity. I'm just wondering if they can make LTN and/or LCY work too? For LCY, I am not sure the runway is long enough for departure, but should be ok for landings. They'll need to clear the ramp, at least 3-4 gates for their 777s, but they have dinero to make it happen.

I think the runway at LTN is too short to make it an effective stop, but perhaps they could get it done. EK makes a lot work that others can't.


Do you ever bother to do any research before making any of your posts?

Because this one has to be nominated for the prestigious ''Most ridiculous post of the year award'' and your definitely a front runner, as long you keep making such outrageous comments your bound to win the award I have no doubt about it and won't your mother be so proud of you.

Your obviously not familiar at all with London City Airport or even Luton Airport to make such ridiculous suggestions.

I suggest that you do some research on London City Airport and then take time to read your comments again, you can also research Luton Airport whilst your at it!

I'm rooting for you all the way man, as long as you keep going the way you are your bound to win that prestigious and most coveted award!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
ManchesterMAN
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:57 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:11 am

EK also have 2 77X freighter flights per week (days 3 and 6) from LHR-DWC with good slot times. I know they are looking to add another one too if they can.
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
flyjay123
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:07 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:20 am

Long haul international airlines that originally started operations at London Gatwick Airport after 1983 upto around the year 2000 included the following although I might have missed one or two.[/quote]

Yes I was refering to you're exhaustive and informative post Cunard. However do you care to illuminate us on what is exactly is obvious!?

Furthermore you're reply to the person posting about city airport is disrespectful and patronising!
 
User avatar
chunhimlai
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:39 am

ManchesterMAN wrote:
EK also have 2 77X freighter flights per week (days 3 and 6) from LHR-DWC with good slot times. I know they are looking to add another one too if they can.


CX does have two weekly cargo flight too
 
osupoke07
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:50 am

vfw614 wrote:
Will be interesting to see how it plays out in the long-term as my educated guess is that at 6 daily flights LHR is maxed out as far as sensibly feeding the DXB hub is concerned. So unless they will run a flight more or less with identical timings of an existing flight or are happy to add a frequency catering for local traffic and those willing to have very long connections, further growth at LHR looks tricky. And once the A380 disappears and will need to be replaced by a smaller widebody (777-9 category), it will become really difficult to grow or even keep passenger numbers. So if in the future the need for additional capacity arises, I guess they will add frequencies at LGW first, the upgauge STN to an A380, add at LGW again and then grow at STN.


I think LHR will end up being the last A380 route for EK. It's one where they actually need and can fully utilize the size of the plane. I supposed after A380 retirement in 15-20 years, the third runway will be open then they can run 8-9 777 instead.
MD82, MD83, MD88, B717, B732, B733, B735, B737, B738, B739, B752, B763, B77W, CR2, CR7, CR9, A320, A321
 
amc737
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:16 pm

Another interesting post Cunard to follow up by my reckoning from your list the following moved to Heathrow from Gatwick in the years after 1991

Air Lanka
Air New Zealand
Air Seychelles
American Airlines
ANA All Nippon Airways
Azerbaijan Airlines
CAAC as Air China
Canadian International successor to CP Air & Wardair
Cathay Pacific
Continental Airlines
Delta
Emirates
EVA Air
Korean Air
Northwest
Philippine Airlines
Qatar Airways
Royal Brunei Airlines
US Airways successor to Piedmont/US Air
Virgin Atlantic
Yemenia

Avianca had stopped Gatwick before starting Heathrow in the mid 90's, likewise Garudas service had ended before restarting Gatwick via Amsterdam with 777's and then moving round the M25. I think even Alymeda had a new A310 service to Heathow in the 90's

What is sad for Gatwick but reality is of the remaining airlines from your list most didn't either last long, collapsed or stopped long haul (such as Air Malawi when the VC-10 was retired) very few came from Heathow, the obvious being Pan Am and TWA and of course now the return of Cathay and China Eastern.

I always enjoyed spotting at Gatwick when I started in 1990, the great spectators terrace, the exotic visitors as you have described above (it may seem funny now that Pan Am and TWA seemed quite boring at LHR). With the exception of the Queens Building Heathrow was not very spotter friendly.

Amc737
 
J343
Topic Author
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:11 pm

DH1Chipmunk wrote:
Slot details of the airlines being discussed here are:

Emirates - of their 6 x daily LHR slots, sources are:
- 2 x allocated for free from the pool in the 1990s
- 1 x from United around 1994
- 1 x from Air France in 2004
- 1 x from BMI in 2005
- 1 x from Air France in 2016

Qatar Airways - of their 6 x daily LHR slots, sources are:
- 2 x allocated for free from the pool by 2004
- 1 x from BMI in 2006
- 1 x from GB Airways in 2008
- 1 x from BMI in 2012
- 1 x from BA in 2014

Cathay have only bought 1 slot pair from Air New Zealand (when NZ pulled AKL-HKG-LHR). Singapore also bought 1 pair from SAA (as mentioned previously).

Also may be of interest, Etihad operate 3 x daily to LHR (evening slots allocated for free from the pool; morning and midday slots bought from Luxair in 2009). Etihad also have bought 3 x daily Jet Airways' slots and approx 5 x daily Alitalia slots (missing some weekend frequencies) that are leased back to Jet Airways and Alitalia respectively, so Etihad actually 'own' approx. 11 x daily LHR slots.


This is very informative thank you. If I am not mistaken, wasnt QR one of the last ME3 to serve LHR? They had more frequencies to LGW?
 
J343
Topic Author
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:04 pm

Cunard wrote:
amc737 wrote:
An excellent post by Cunard - just to add that the reason for the moves was the London Air Traffic Distribution rules ended in 1991 - previously this meant if an airline had not started Heathrow ops by 1978 they had to operate to Gatwick, this is why Air Malta then a new airline started Heathrow in 1974 while Cathay had to use Gatwick as its long hual operation started later. The exception to this rule was domestic flights so I believe Dan Air started Inverness Heathrow after 1978. I believe the rule was abolished as part of United and American getting Heathrow access when they bought Pan Am and TWA route authorities to allow a 2nd UK carrier Virgin to truly compete.

It’s hard to believe now that Heathrow stalwarts like Cathay and Emirates started at Gatwick, other carriers that moved in 1991 where All Nippon, Korean Air, Royal Brunei, Air China and Air Lanka. I may have missed some. Most airlines left Gatwick entirely, Emirates operated both for a while, then ended Gatwick before returning shortly afterwards. Obviously other bilaterals still applied so Continental, Delta etc still had to remain at Gatwick even though Heathrow was now “open”

Amc737


Thanks for appreciating my post but if I could just add to yours and make some comments.

The London Air Traffic Distribution rules were changed in early 1991 and we're implemented at the start of the IATA summer schedule in 1991 with the majority moving to LHR once they had suitable slots, Air New Zealand in particular didn't make the full move from LGW to LHR until 1994.

The change in the ruling allowed for London Heathrow Airport to be opened up to new airlines which had been previously forced to use London Gatwick Airport.

In early 1977 HM Government and the BAA declared that London Heathrow Airport was full and therefore from the start of the IATA summer season in 1977 all new international airline entrants would be made to use London Gatwick Airport.

At the time the BAA and the government were investing heavily at London Gatwick Airport making it a suitable alternative to the main London gateway if Heathrow and making it officially London's second airport and therefore wanting incoming airlines to use the new and upgraded facilities.

Air Malta started MLA-LHR on the 04 April 1974 so the change in the London Air Traffic Distribution rules did not apply in 1974, the same applies to National Airlines when they were awarded MIA-LHR in 1971 and Air Mauritius starting in 1975.

The London Air Traffic ruling did not apply to domestic flights from London Heathrow Airport.

In 1980 British Airways abandoned much of it's domestic flights when they retired the Viscount, this included several routes from London Heathrow Airport,

Several airlines were awarded the former British Airways routes starting at the start of the IATA summer schedule of 1980.

Air UK were awarded LHR-GCI.
British Midland Airways were awarded LHR to LBA and LPL.
Dan Air were awarded LHR-INN flying it upto three times daily with a BAC1-11.
Manx Air were awarded LHR-IOM.

The change in the London Air Traffic Distribution rules in 1991 did not apply to the incumbent airlines from the USA that were still forced to use London Gatwick Airport under the Bermuda II Agreement which was finally abolished in 2007 allowing some of them to be able to move from London Gatwick Airport to London Heathrow Airport at the start of IATA summer schedule of 2008.

If airlines such as Pan Am and TWA who were both grandfathered at London Heathrow Airport wanted to open up additional flights between airports in the USA and London that were listed under the Bermuda II Agreement they had to use London Gatwick Airport, that's why we saw Pan Am starting IAH-LGW in June 1980 as Houston under the former Bermuda II Agreement was not covered from London Heathrow Airport, in a similar way that we saw TWA start STL-LGW as St Louis was another airport not listed, that's why London Gatwick Airport had more airlines from the USA with more destinations in the USA than London Heathrow Airport did.

When London Gatwick Airport was made the official airport for all new international entrants entering the London market in 1977 it was a slow start at first but by 1980 the airport had quite a respectable long haul network with the expansion of BCAL and the entry of many international flag carriers from all over the world as well as the many North American airlines.

Just an example but I will give a quick glimpse back in time during the years from 1978 to 1983 regarding international long haul flights airlines starting operations at London Gatwick Airport including the destinations and the year that they started.

Previous to the London Air Traffic Distribution rules changing in 1977 London Gatwick Airport had a couple of international long haul airlines operating scheduled service including,

Air Malawi...Blantyre (commenced in 1974)
Alymeda...Aden (commenced in 1976)
British West Indian Airlines...Port of Spain (commenced 1971 moving to LHR in 1975)
Caribbean Airways...Barbados (Laker subsidiary, commenced in 1968)

1978

Avianca...Bogota
Braniff International...Dallas/Ft Worth
Delta...Atlanta
World Airways...Boston

1979

Air Lanka... Colombo

1980

Air Florida...Miami
Air Tanzania...Dar es Salaam
Air Zimbabwe...Harare
Cathay Pacific...Hong Kong
Garuda Indonesia...Jakarta
Northwest Orient...Minneapolis/St Paul
Pan Am...Houston
Philippine Airlines...Manila
Sierra Leone Airways...Freetown
Uganda Airlines...Entebbe

1981

Air Florida...Tampa
CAAC...Beijing
Cubana...Havana (semi-charter/scheduled)
Northwest Orient...Boston (replacing World Airways)
TWA...New York JFK
Western Airlines... Anchorage, Denver, Honolulu
World Airways...Baltimore

1982

Air India...Dehli (one season only)
Air New Zealand...Auckland via Los Angeles
American Airlines... Dallas/Ft Worth (replacing Braniff International)
Yemenia...Sanaa

1983

Cameroon Airlines...Douala
Caribbean Airways...Barbados
Air Seychelles...Mahe
Arrow Air...Denver (replacing Western Airlines), Tampa (replacing Air Florida)
Peoplexpress...Newark

Although not fully scheduled flights but during this period London Gatwick Airport saw many long haul airlines from north America operating various ABC Advanced Booking Schedules the most common with the most frequent schedules and sometimes with several flighs a day were,

CP Air...Calgary...Edmonton...Halifax...Montreal...Toronto...Vancouver...Winnipeg
Wardair...Calgary...Edmonton...Montreal...Toronto...Vancouver...Winnipeg

From 1983 onwards London Gatwick Airport had many more international long haul airlines starting flights although by September 1983 my plane spotting days were virtually over as I had gone to sea at 18yo to work on the Cunard liner Queen Elizabeth 2 although that didn't stop me enjoying the crew flights to all over the world often in business class and spending some quality time at JFK or Kai Tak when I had the opportunity -:)

Long haul international airlines that originally started operations at London Gatwick Airport after 1983 upto around the year 2000 included the following although I might have missed one or two.

Air Gabon
Air Afrique
Air Kazakhstan
Air Maldives
Air Mauritius
ANA All Nippon Airways
Azerbaijan Airlines
Continental Airlines
Eastern Airlines
Emirates
EVA Air
Korean Air
Piedmont Airlines
Qatar Airways
Royal Brunei Airlines
Royal Nepal Airlines
Transbrasil
US Air/Airways
Uzbekistan Airlines

I have a great affection for London Gatwick Airport and I personally enjoy reminiscing those years between 1979 and 1983 spending many an enjoyable day on the excellent and long gone viewing gallery.



This is the most informative post! Thank you very much!

So I take it ANA was the first Japanese airline to serve TYO-LON? Also did Malaysia Airlines and Singapore Airlines initially start their operations in LGW?
 
David_itl
Posts: 6365
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 7:39 am

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:17 pm

No, JAL has operated for decades into LHR with DC8s then moving to 747s
 
n729pa
Posts: 1102
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:16 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:39 pm

What happened with Royal Nepal Airlines? I remember them serving LGW in the 90s but I don't recall them moving so I assume they just stopped at some point, but I don't remember when.
 
worldranger
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:25 pm

ManchesterMAN wrote:
EK also have 2 77X freighter flights per week (days 3 and 6) from LHR-DWC with good slot times. I know they are looking to add another one too if they can.


Correct, it’s always full. EK LON cargo mgt were surprised at how quickly the STN cargo belly space got filled and it was a factor in the launch of the 2nd daily.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2373
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: EK and London

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:53 pm

Andy33 wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
I'm just wondering if they can make LTN and/or LCY work too? For LCY, I am not sure the runway is long enough for departure, but should be ok for landings. They'll need to clear the ramp, at least 3-4 gates for their 777s, but they have dinero to make it happen.


Any plane that uses LCY has to be capable of configuration for a 5.5 glideslope, otherwise it simply won't succeed in landing, at least not on the runway or in one piece. I seriously doubt if the 77W has that capability, and even if it does, there's also a weight limit because part of the runway, the taxiway that is under construction, and the hardstanding the plane would have to use are all built on piles driven into the base of a dock. The design loading for these areas will be to take aircraft that are physically capable of getting in and out, not every aircraft that exists. The place was built as a STOL-port and not even the most optimistic Boeing salesman would ever have described a 77W as an STOL aircraft.


On Infinite Flight, I'm able to get the 77W in and out ok, but not if I change the settings to full weight. I was just trolling by the way. For the Docklands, EK would have to be satisfied with "Emirates Air Line" only.
Keep on truckin'...

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