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sonicruiser
Topic Author
Posts: 921
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Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:07 pm

Air India does not fly to Canada currently while Jet Airways does. However, with the turmoil unfolding over at 9W, should it collapse, is it the end of Indian service to Canada? AC still flies to India, but wouldn't be able to provide any onward connections like an Indian airline. The situation is somewhat surprising especially considering the high number of Indians living in Canada.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title edited for clarity
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
rgreenftm
Posts: 156
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:12 pm

Air Canada and Air India are both in the Star Alliance. Plenty of onward connection opportunities, should they so desire.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:13 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Air India does not fly to Canada currently while Jet Airways does. However, with the turmoil unfolding over at 9W, should it collapse, is it the end of Indian service to Canada? AC still flies to India, but wouldn't be able to provide any onward connections like an Indian airline. The situation is somewhat surprising especially considering the high number of Indians living in Canada.


If 9W were to fold, what makes you think AI wouldn't try to take the place?
 
VTORD
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:20 pm

AC website lists AI as a code share partner so given that AI is Star Alliance, it should at least be able to interline and provide BOM/DEL onward connectivity. In recent years, AI used to have a YYZ flight I believe but it used to be prior to their DEL-hub days. Depending upon how 9W situation unfolds, AI may as well think of giving it another go from DEL....

might want to consider moving this to Indian Aviation thread, not sure if a separate thread is warranted here
 
pdp
Posts: 244
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:33 pm

There used to be Amritsar > Birmingham (UK) > Toronto with an AI 772. I went on it once and it was packed.

Won't again mind you.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:30 pm

I may be wrong but Indian diaspora in Canada are not big fans of Air India. So, Air Canada operating BHX-Toronto in partnership with Air India ATQ/DEL-BHX would provide sustainable service.

Disclaimer, I don't believe in the financial viability of ultra long-haul routes.
All posts are just opinions.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:12 pm

Because of Air India 181/182 in 1985, we learned (sadly) of the need for an intermediate stop (at least at the time) in flying between eastern Canada and India. And in that era, you flew to DEL or BOM, and then transferred.

Today, the number of one-stop-and-connections between YYZ/YUL - India is staggering. Europe and the ME3 + TK have most of the market sewn up, including the "lesser" airports (i.e., not DEL or BOM) with their mega-hubs.

For Air India to compete, they're would have to have to offer something no one else can - a non-stop - and secure enough premium traffic to make it work. It could be done, but it might not be profitable enough to try.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:18 pm

I would recommend changing the thread title, Jet Airways still flies to Canada, regardless if they are going to go down or not, at this time, it's still going.
 
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yowza
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:43 pm

Between direct services on AC metal and the raft of one stop options I can't imagine it would be a huge priority for Indian carriers at this stage. That said if 9W goes belly up I suspect AI will eventually take another stab. I'm convinced that AC could make BLR work as long as they time it well with flights to the SFO bay area.

YOWza
 
IPFreely
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I may be wrong but Indian diaspora in Canada are not big fans of Air India.


I would love to see the evidence supporting this.
 
Antarius
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:05 pm

IPFreely wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I may be wrong but Indian diaspora in Canada are not big fans of Air India.


I would love to see the evidence supporting this.


Their truly astounding stream of losses every year definitely portends towards no one liking them, the Canadians being no exception.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
edealinfo
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:35 pm

yowza wrote:
Between direct services on AC metal and the raft of one stop options I can't imagine it would be a huge priority for Indian carriers at this stage. That said if 9W goes belly up I suspect AI will eventually take another stab. I'm convinced that AC could make BLR work as long as they time it well with flights to the SFO bay area.

YOWza


Which aircarft can fly BLR-SFO non stop year round?
 
Antarius
Posts: 2045
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:37 am

edealinfo wrote:
yowza wrote:
Between direct services on AC metal and the raft of one stop options I can't imagine it would be a huge priority for Indian carriers at this stage. That said if 9W goes belly up I suspect AI will eventually take another stab. I'm convinced that AC could make BLR work as long as they time it well with flights to the SFO bay area.

YOWza


Which aircarft can fly BLR-SFO non stop year round?


77L, 789, 359ULR. Probably others too. It is shorter than PER-LHR and SIN-EWR.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
b747400erf
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:44 am

Antarius wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I may be wrong but Indian diaspora in Canada are not big fans of Air India.


I would love to see the evidence supporting this.


Their truly astounding stream of losses every year definitely portends towards no one liking them, the Canadians being no exception.


That does not prove your claim you need to try again.
 
Antarius
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:59 am

b747400erf wrote:
Antarius wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

I would love to see the evidence supporting this.


Their truly astounding stream of losses every year definitely portends towards no one liking them, the Canadians being no exception.


That does not prove your claim you need to try again.


As I said, it portends. That said, they are broke, and have failure oozing out of every pore. The specifics don't matter.

Simply put, it either wont make them money or they are too incompetent to capitalize on a profitable route. Either way, AI still continues to bleed money.

Anecdotally, AI is horrible. took it on BOM-SIN and it was positively ghastly. Feedback on SFO-DEL isnt great either.

But nice try with the "you can't disprove it" attempt
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:10 am

Antarius wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Their truly astounding stream of losses every year definitely portends towards no one liking them, the Canadians being no exception.


That does not prove your claim you need to try again.


As I said, it portends. That said, they are broke, and have failure oozing out of every pore. The specifics don't matter.

Simply put, it either wont make them money or they are too incompetent to capitalize on a profitable route. Either way, AI still continues to bleed money.

Anecdotally, AI is horrible. took it on BOM-SIN and it was positively ghastly. Feedback on SFO-DEL isnt great either.

But nice try with the "you can't disprove it" attempt


You make a claim
And get mad at me pointing out you can not back up that claim
Not profitable. Bleeding money. None of this is part of your first claim
Do not post claims if you cannot back them up and choose to get mad at people pointing this out
 
Antarius
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:20 am

b747400erf wrote:
Antarius wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

That does not prove your claim you need to try again.


As I said, it portends. That said, they are broke, and have failure oozing out of every pore. The specifics don't matter.

Simply put, it either wont make them money or they are too incompetent to capitalize on a profitable route. Either way, AI still continues to bleed money.

Anecdotally, AI is horrible. took it on BOM-SIN and it was positively ghastly. Feedback on SFO-DEL isnt great either.

But nice try with the "you can't disprove it" attempt


You make a claim
And get mad at me pointing out you can not back up that claim
Not profitable. Bleeding money. None of this is part of your first claim
Do not post claims if you cannot back them up and choose to get mad at people pointing this out


I made no claim. Someone else did, I offered a plausible explanation.

Well liked and highly demanded commodities dont usually haemorrage money, especially in a successful market where others are printing it. So maybe the fact that they arent an in-demand commodity means that they arent well liked in Canada too.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
IPFreely
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:15 am

b747400erf wrote:
That does not prove your claim you need to try again.


It wasn't his claim. But you're right, his post proves nothing.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:56 am

This isn't a court of law...no one needs to prove or disprove anything, frankly
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:15 am

Antarius wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
yowza wrote:
Between direct services on AC metal and the raft of one stop options I can't imagine it would be a huge priority for Indian carriers at this stage. That said if 9W goes belly up I suspect AI will eventually take another stab. I'm convinced that AC could make BLR work as long as they time it well with flights to the SFO bay area.

YOWza


Which aircarft can fly BLR-SFO non stop year round?


77L, 789, 359ULR. Probably others too. It is shorter than PER-LHR and SIN-EWR.


No need for ULR, if the 789 can do it, the A359 sure can, the standard A350-900 has a slightly longer range than the 789.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:19 am

Well this rapidly devolved into a measuring contest...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:30 am

IPFreely wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I may be wrong but Indian diaspora in Canada are not big fans of Air India.


I would love to see the evidence supporting this.


I posted evidence which was promptly deleted. A.net should stop the habit of deleting evidence.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:50 am

whywhyzee wrote:
Well this rapidly devolved into a measuring contest...


That's because the AI bashing crowd tends to crawl out from under their rocks as soon as AI is mentioned anywhere on this forum....some folks on here think they've done their good deed for the day if they bash AI at least once in 24 hours :)
 
texdravid
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:36 pm

Ha ha all this AI bashing and I’m not part of it?

The shame, the horror! Let me jump in....

All “evidence” is anecdotal on public forums, people. Take it or leave it. It won’t change any minds.

AI as I have said many times for the past 15 years, AI is mostly an airline for government babus and old Hindi speaking grandmas going from NYC area to DEL. It was, is and always will be a North Indian focused crappy airline.

You want to go reliably one stop to MAA or BLR or HYD or Cochin, etc from the US or Canada?

Take a European or ME carrier....AI should NOT be on your radar!
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
airceo
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:50 pm

edealinfo wrote:
yowza wrote:
Between direct services on AC metal and the raft of one stop options I can't imagine it would be a huge priority for Indian carriers at this stage. That said if 9W goes belly up I suspect AI will eventually take another stab. I'm convinced that AC could make BLR work as long as they time it well with flights to the SFO bay area.

YOWza


Which aircarft can fly BLR-SFO non stop year round?

In the existing fleet at AC 788, 789, 77W, 77L could all manage BLR-YVR/YYZ. Onward service would be on whatever metal is already in play.

YOWza
@airceo
 
rgreenftm
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:44 pm

I'm not sure why people hate on AI so much. I've flown them a few times DEL-BKK-DEL, and also between DEL-AMD on a couple of occasions. Nothing special about them, but I wouldn't say it was any worse than any US based carrier. I've been in both Y and J classes.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:48 pm

Antarius wrote:
Their truly astounding stream of losses every year definitely portends towards no one liking them, the Canadians being no exception.


Losses don't mean AI doesn't have traffic, it means AI's CASK is too high.
 
Antarius
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:05 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Their truly astounding stream of losses every year definitely portends towards no one liking them, the Canadians being no exception.


Losses don't mean AI doesn't have traffic, it means AI's CASK is too high.


And also that their yield is probably not good. Filling a plane with cheap fares is easy- no one likes NK, but they still fly them. But NK doesnt fly ULH, so unless AI can command a revenue premium (which, if people dont like you, you cant), your yields are usually trash.

Their CASK isnt the only reason they are haemorraging money.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Antarius
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:22 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
Well this rapidly devolved into a measuring contest...


That's because the AI bashing crowd tends to crawl out from under their rocks as soon as AI is mentioned anywhere on this forum....some folks on here think they've done their good deed for the day if they bash AI at least once in 24 hours :)


There isnt another topic where there is such a vehement defense force that is completely ungrounded from reality.

AI being a poorly run airline that loses money and is managed horribly is a fact. Look at their financial, service ratings, aircraft interiors. Yet theres a vocal contingent disputing this repeatedly.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:16 pm

AI's indirect costs prevent positive yields. NK has positive yields, even with low fares, because they manage indirect costs well. AI is not so much as airline as a social welfare experiment. :duck:
 
subramak1
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:21 pm

texdravid wrote:
Ha ha all this AI bashing and I’m not part of it?

The shame, the horror! Let me jump in....

All “evidence” is anecdotal on public forums, people. Take it or leave it. It won’t change any minds.

AI as I have said many times for the past 15 years, AI is mostly an airline for government babus and old Hindi speaking grandmas going from NYC area to DEL. It was, is and always will be a North Indian focused crappy airline.

You want to go reliably one stop to MAA or BLR or HYD or Cochin, etc from the US or Canada?

Take a European or ME carrier....AI should NOT be on your radar!


Not really, AI really has their ground game organized in Delhi. The challenges AI faces are that Indians treat AI like shit when we travel by AI and behave at our best while travelling with other Airlines.

It has other challenges but don't take away the fact we treat AI like shit as passengers.

Subu
 
airxliban
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:37 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Because of Air India 181/182 in 1985, we learned (sadly) of the need for an intermediate stop (at least at the time) in flying between eastern Canada and India. And in that era, you flew to DEL or BOM, and then transferred.


I was a little intrigued by this comment. I am well aware of the tragedy of AI 182 and the loss of 329 innocent lives. What is the link about that and the need for an intermediate stop, would the accident not have happened if there had been a different spot..?
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
indcwby
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:45 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Antarius wrote:
b747400erf wrote:

That does not prove your claim you need to try again.


As I said, it portends. That said, they are broke, and have failure oozing out of every pore. The specifics don't matter.

Simply put, it either wont make them money or they are too incompetent to capitalize on a profitable route. Either way, AI still continues to bleed money.

Anecdotally, AI is horrible. took it on BOM-SIN and it was positively ghastly. Feedback on SFO-DEL isnt great either.

But nice try with the "you can't disprove it" attempt


You make a claim
And get mad at me pointing out you can not back up that claim
Not profitable. Bleeding money. None of this is part of your first claim
Do not post claims if you cannot back them up and choose to get mad at people pointing this out


Just need to search on YouTube for Air India Customer Service and you'll have a playlist.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... er+service
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:05 pm

airxliban wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Because of Air India 181/182 in 1985, we learned (sadly) of the need for an intermediate stop (at least at the time) in flying between eastern Canada and India. And in that era, you flew to DEL or BOM, and then transferred.


I was a little intrigued by this comment. I am well aware of the tragedy of AI 182 and the loss of 329 innocent lives. What is the link about that and the need for an intermediate stop, would the accident not have happened if there had been a different spot..?


https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850623-2

The routing of the plane (in its entirety) was DEL-LHR-YUL-YYZ-LHR-DEL. Bombay is mentioned, but I don't know if the 747 was the same aircraft on this route. AI might have had local traffic rights between the UK and Canada, but I don't know that for sure.

As for the accident, the intermediate stop had nothing to do with it. The explosive device went off at 31,000 feet, which would have occurred with a stop in LHR or a non-stop to DEL.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:30 pm

indcwby wrote:
...
Just need to search on YouTube for Air India Customer Service and you'll have a playlist.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... er+service


If you remove "customer service" from the search there are excellent trip reports by western bloggers and there are tons of news stories of AI employees went out of their way to help customers. Sam Chui and Nonstop Dan wanted to try just to fact check.

AI is not the AI a.net + ME3 + UA dreams of.

Pros
Most of its fleet is new.
Most of its cabin crew is young as their aged CC retired.
It can command 200% fares of Chinese, 25% more than ME3 and meet or beat UA. If its yields are low, others are already shot.
Its long haul product beats everyone in seat pitch food quality and quantity.
Cabin crew is not robotic.

Cons
It can get messy during IRROPS
No concept of cleanliness.

BTT
It never was able to monetize the Canadian market, different story.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Antarius
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Its long haul product beats everyone in seat pitch food quality and quantity.


2x3x2 with a 76 inch pitch is somehow "beating everyone". Wow. Have you every flown....pretty much ANY other airline?

Their long haul J is embarrassingly bad. Like pmUA bad.

The problem is I'm sure the leadership gets people to wax poetically like this while completely ignoring reality. The result is, Air India. A product that is a direct result of an echo chamber of incompetence.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
indcwby
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:07 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
indcwby wrote:
...
Just need to search on YouTube for Air India Customer Service and you'll have a playlist.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... er+service

Sam Chui and Nonstop Dan wanted to try just to fact check.


Yeah, the 2 names I don't trust just because you can tell they are given preferential treatment in some of their videos of recent times.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
VTORD
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:51 pm

indcwby wrote:
Yeah, the 2 names I don't trust just because you can tell they are given preferential treatment in some of their videos of recent times.

I find non-stop Dan quite irritating TBH but back to topic....

Indian diaspora in Canada is not quite as big as the US or UK but the next 5 years could change that from an immigration perspective...We might see an uptick in service in the next 2 - 5 years, A lot of this will be dictated by how the current immigration scene evolves in the US too.
 
multimark
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:51 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Because of Air India 181/182 in 1985, we learned (sadly) of the need for an intermediate stop (at least at the time) in flying between eastern Canada and India. And in that era, you flew to DEL or BOM, and then transferred.

Today, the number of one-stop-and-connections between YYZ/YUL - India is staggering. Europe and the ME3 + TK have most of the market sewn up, including the "lesser" airports (i.e., not DEL or BOM) with their mega-hubs.

For Air India to compete, they're would have to have to offer something no one else can - a non-stop - and secure enough premium traffic to make it work. It could be done, but it might not be profitable enough to try.


Premum traffic between Canada and India is almost an oxymoron. Low, low yields.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:48 am

Credit where credit is due, Canada-India does pretty well, up to 4 daily flights is nothing to sneeze at. There is also a reason Jet Airways left all North American flying, yet kept Toronto, I don’t imagine it was darts on a map. Can’t see why YYZ or maybe even YVR wouldn’t work for AI, they did after all announce their intentions to serve Toronto a few years ago, never came together, but evidently they believe there is something there. Not going to be an all star, but I don’t think it would be an unmitigated disaster either.
 
indcwby
Posts: 332
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Re: No Indian airlines flying to Canada?

Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:32 pm

VTORD wrote:
indcwby wrote:
Yeah, the 2 names I don't trust just because you can tell they are given preferential treatment in some of their videos of recent times.

I find non-stop Dan quite irritating TBH but back to topic....

Indian diaspora in Canada is not quite as big as the US or UK but the next 5 years could change that from an immigration perspective...We might see an uptick in service in the next 2 - 5 years, A lot of this will be dictated by how the current immigration scene evolves in the US too.


Personally speaking, if AI ever started service in IAH, and their fares were competitive enough to compete and beat the QR/EK, then you would see folks look past their perception of AI and fly with them. But if the pricing is about the same, then I can still see QR/EK getting the edge unless it's a non-stop flight to their destination (BOM/DEL).
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
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QuawerAir
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Re: Will Indian airlines continue flying to Canada?

Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Jet Airways has closed reservation for Delhi–Amsterdam–Toronto service from 12 April 2019 among several other routes. It's extremely sad to see this airline going down...

Routesonline
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The word "Quawer" means nothing but it looks great.

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