RainerBoeing777
Topic Author
Posts: 420
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DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:28 am

DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

In 2018 American surpassed Delta in passenger traffic in Italy
AA: 967,874 with a growth of 16.5%
DL: 885,442 with a growth of 5.9%

https://www.enac.gov.it/sites/default/files/allegati/2019-Mar/Dati_di_traffico_2018.pdf

The route network of AA is more extensive than that of DL
AA routes in Italy for summer 2019
FCO: JFK, ORD, PHL, CLT, DWF
MXP: JFK, MIA
VCE: ORD, PHL
BLQ: PHL
DL routes in Italy for summer 2019
FCO: JFK, ATL and DTW
MXP: JFK, ATL
VCE: JFK, ATL

AA despite not having any business partner in Italy has grown significantly in recent years have been lagging DFW-FCO, ORD-VCE and PHL-BLQ and most of the AA routes have grown. Unlike DL has decreased in the market have eliminated JFK-PSA and MSP-FCO

Because DL does not grow in the region as it does in LHR, AMS and CDG where KL, AF and VS participate in the transatlantic JV, Norwegian has consolidated in FCO and they have had good occupations in Hubs that are Delta like New York and Los Angeles, this summer 2019 launched FCO-BOS a route that could easily launch DL or AZ increase frequencies was more feasible than Lisbon or Edinburgh, the ATL-FCO route decreased this year I think DL and AZ should work better more shared codes and grow more, grow more in LAX and JFK routes with an important demand of O & D passengers, and allow Alitalia to expand more in the Delta hubs like JFK, ATL.DTW, MSP, LAX and SEA, likewise expand more in Italy (FCO, MXP, VCE, among other seasonal destinations) apart from the fact that partners of a JV and of the same Alliance (Skyteam) do not take advantage of the market enough

If DL saves AZ, they have to manage a fixed strategy like the one they did with VS to grow more in their transatlantic network and despite all that AZ has a domestic / regional network that allows greater shared connections and code, something VS does not have.

On the other hand DL has good relations with MU and KE that can help AZ grow, there is a considerable demand between ICN and PVG to GRU that can be transferred via FCO in equal parts of benificiarian enough

What is your opinion on the relationship in DL with AZ?
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
winginit
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:45 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

In 2018 American surpassed Delta in passenger traffic in Italy
AA: 967,874 with a growth of 16.5%
DL: 885,442 with a growth of 5.9%


I'm confused as to why AZ and DL's passenger traffic figures shouldn't be combined.

While AZ has indeed been excluded from the new 'Blue Skies' application that's inclusive of DL, VS, AF, and KL, it's my understanding that until that new agreement is blessed by US regulatory authorities and executed, there remains in effect a full anti-trust immunized profit sharing joint venture in place between DL and AZ that also includes AF and KL. Maybe I have that wrong.
 
Ishrion
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:16 am

So correct me if I'm wrong, but a JV is so airlines don't have to fly certain routes and allow the other carrier to fly them and share profits off of it.

As well as... Alitalia was excluded out of the JV last year? https://thepointsguy.com/news/alitalia- ... -atlantic/

So essentially if they both had a JV agreement, you'd have to add in Alitalia's flights from FCO-LAX/JFK/BOX/ORD/MIA/YYZ.

Another example of this is AA/Finnair's Transatlantic Joint Venture in which AA doesn't even fly to Helsinki(Finnair's base) but adds its routes to the total JV with BA and IB.

I suppose AA has to have a stronger presence in Italy to cover holes in their JV as the other 3 airlines won't fly the routes.
 
Detroit313
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:06 am

JVs do not necessarily result to less flying for US airlines. Most of the times they result to more.

AA has a JV with Iberia but still owns Spain.

AA has a JV with BA and completely owns LHR.

And those are without even counting British Airways and Iberia flying.
 
airzona11
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:11 am

That is an impressive amount of non-stops, for traffic that overall tends to be lower yielding. DL/AA JV partners both offer many 1-stop connections via LHR AMS CDG BCN etc. Throw Star in the mix and Italy seems well served.
 
jfk777
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:11 am

Many AA routes to Italy are summer seasonal routes, their schedule is not as large as it seems. Delta's schedule is more annual, all the routes are MXP & FCO to their hubs of Detroit, Atlanta and JFK.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:21 am

How does AAs numbers in Italy look without JFK?

Just following the trend line...those two cities are not partner hubs and MXP has lots of competition.
 
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compensateme
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:24 am

Maybe I’m missing something but, what’s the point of this thread? I’m genuinely confused.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:35 am

Not sure what the point of this thread is. The majority of AA's US-Italy routes are seasonal, except for JFK-MXP, MIA-MXP, and PHL-FCO, which operate year-round, though at peak times, AA does in fact have a large share of the US-Italy market by virtue of its numerous nonstop flights across other hub airports. DL is trying to find a way to invest in AZ (Alitalia is being illegally propped up by the Italian government in flagrant abuse of all EU rules against state subsidies to bankrupt companies). Alitalia refuses to die and wants to live on with a bloated workforce, an inefficient network, and arcane operating rules, thinking that with new cabin interiors, new uniforms, and an improved reputation for cabin service, it can survive. Maybe it can, maybe it cannot. I just don't see the Italian government letting AZ fall off a cliff and under the right wing government of Matteo Salvini, they will source funds to keep AZ in the air as long as possible. This drama has played itself out on a regular basis since Alitalia last made a profit. In 1997 and for 1 quarter.

US-Italy is a HUGE market in the Spring/Summer, starting just prior to Easter and continuing all the way through to September.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:50 am

Most of AA’s nonstops to Italy are summer only seasonal flights, and in the summer this traffic is HIGH yielding, not low yielding traffic.


quote="airzona11"]That is an impressive amount of non-stops, for traffic that overall tends to be lower yielding. DL/AA JV partners both offer many 1-stop connections via LHR AMS CDG BCN etc. Throw Star in the mix and Italy seems well served.[/quote]
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:02 pm

And UA's Italy service in peak season:

EWR to FCO, MXP, VCE, and NAP (NAP starts this year)....VCE and NAP are seasonal only, EWR to FCO does not operate daily in the winter.
IAD to FCO (seasonal?)
ORD to FCO (seasonal)
 
WPvsMW
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:13 pm

compensateme wrote:
Maybe I’m missing something but, what’s the point of this thread? I’m genuinely confused.


Option 1: Who is dominant in the US/Italiy market; is AA vs. DL a valid comparison, or should the comparison be OW vs. ST?

Option 2: Which strategy is more profitable for a US operator: going it alone or teaming with a partner on life support?

Option 3: Whatever the OP had in mind... which I think is something like, "what does this data mean?".
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:18 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Maybe I’m missing something but, what’s the point of this thread? I’m genuinely confused.


Option 1: Who is dominant in the US/Italiy market; is AA vs. DL a valid comparison, or should the comparison be OW vs. ST?

Option 2: Which strategy is more profitable for a US operator: going it alone or teaming with a partner on life support?

Option 3: Whatever the OP had in mind... which I think is something like, "what does this data mean?".


Personally, I found it interesting. I was under the impression DL was the largest US carrier to Italy and I hadn't really seen AA's growth summarized.
 
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United787
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:25 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
And UA's Italy service in peak season:

EWR to FCO, MXP, VCE, and NAP (NAP starts this year)....VCE and NAP are seasonal only, EWR to FCO does not operate daily in the winter.
IAD to FCO (seasonal?)
ORD to FCO (seasonal)


What was UA's pax count for Italy?
 
Themotionman
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:06 pm

How long until AA launches MXP-PHL. If so, would it mean the end of JFK-MXP? I think JFK-MXP is operated by the B772, which they dont have at PHL, as I think PHL is just A330/B763. So they couldn't just move that 772 onto PHL-MXP, perhaps a bit of a reshuffle at MIA may be necessary to free up a B763.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:45 pm

Themotionman wrote:
How long until AA launches MXP-PHL. If so, would it mean the end of JFK-MXP? I think JFK-MXP is operated by the B772, which they dont have at PHL, as I think PHL is just A330/B763. So they couldn't just move that 772 onto PHL-MXP, perhaps a bit of a reshuffle at MIA may be necessary to free up a B763.


Long before the merger, US briefly operated PHL-MXP, using a 767-200ER and the route performed poorly, but it was a different time entirely. Logic would have it that if AA were to stop flying JFK-MXP (it has long been rumored to be the next long haul to be axed from JFK on AA) that it would go to PHL. MXP is actually more of a business destination than a tourism one, and the business links are much stronger from NYC, which is probably why AA operates it. The shift to the 777 was also done to up the cargo capacity. It has been a 777 for a while now. AA competes out of NYC to MXP with DL, AZ, Air Italy, and Emirates, all from JFK, and UA at EWR. My guess is that there is enough local demand to keep JFK-MXP flying for AA.
 
HP69
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 pm

AA should definitely move JFK-MXP to PHL given the superior connections.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:00 pm

HP69 wrote:
AA should definitely move JFK-MXP to PHL given the superior connections.

I can't tell if your serious or not with that statement - where is it suggested that connections are even needed to make the JFK-MXP flight work or would do anything to improve performance?
1.4mm and counting...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:32 pm

HP69 wrote:
AA should definitely move JFK-MXP to PHL given the superior connections.


AA knows how many people are using JFK as their origin or destination and how much they pay. New Yorkers aren't going to connect in Philly - they'll just fly DL/AZ, Norwegian or United instead.
 
DDR
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:45 pm

Not sure if there is a point to this thread?
 
AEROFAN
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:08 am

compensateme wrote:
Maybe I’m missing something but, what’s the point of this thread? I’m genuinely confused.


What is the point to many of the threads? I was about to click out of it as I was thinking the same thing when I saw your post...
 
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chepos
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:12 am

MXP is not moving to PHL. It’s a route that works out of JFK and MIA. Not dependent on much connections and works well out pf Kennedy.


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Yonderlust
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:27 am

DDR wrote:
Not sure if there is a point to this thread?

It's a valid discussion, and it doesn't need a point other than to see where the comments might lead.
 
acentauri
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Re: DL vs AA in Italy, doubts of the transatlantic JV of DL and AZ

Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:37 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
HP69 wrote:
AA should definitely move JFK-MXP to PHL given the superior connections.


AA knows how many people are using JFK as their origin or destination and how much they pay. New Yorkers aren't going to connect in Philly - they'll just fly DL/AZ, Norwegian or United instead.

JFK-MXP - THE DESIGNERS COMMUTER.

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