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LAXintl
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LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:26 pm

JetBlue troubles continue at LGB. This time over failure to fully utilize its slot holdings as carrier employs day of week and seasonal scheduling practices falling below required slot usage percentages.


Long Beach may soon start penalizing JetBlue for not complying with a new rule requiring the carrier to use more of its flight slots at the city's airport, according to a Wednesday, April 3, memo that City Manager Pat West sent to the City Council. Exactly what that crackdown may look like, or when they'd begin, is unclear, but West wrote that penalties could include disqualifying JetBlue from receiving future flight slots or reducing the slots available to the airline. The final decision would be up to the airport's director.

Long Beach says it may start cracking down on JetBlue for not using enough of its flight slots
https://www.presstelegram.com/2019/04/0 ... ght-slots/

=

(Story also mentions both HA and DL are on waitlist for slots at the airport)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:27 pm

I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.
 
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UPlog
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:32 pm

JetBlue’s problems at LGB are all its own doing.

From curfew violations to now slot squatting, they should know better. LB is right to throw the book at them for ongoing ignorance of operating rules.
 
richierich
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm

Sounds like B6 is leaving Long Beach hanging...at some point, they will reduce LGB to just a couple of redeyes and ONT will be the beneficiary of an increased B6 presence. Is it safe to say there would be no love lost between JetBlue and LGB if or when that happens?
None shall pass!!!!
 
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janders
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:37 pm

Why B6 wont stay out of trouble is beyond me.
They well know the regulations yet for years have flaunted them. Yes Long Beach is indeed well within its rights to throw the book at them.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:45 pm

tphuang wrote:
I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.


More slots to DL isn't going to help B6's profitability. They shouldn't care about allocations to HA.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:48 pm

Indeed if B6 would simply follow the rules they would not have the city on their backs.

Years of slot violations and low slot usage rightfully make them targets for enforcement action and growing ill will from community and city leaders.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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enilria
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:48 pm

tphuang wrote:
I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.

Yes and no. Agreed they will add no new flights. I actually see them exiting at some point completely. I think if gates at LAX were plentiful they’d be gone already. Having said that I’m not sure they want DL or anybody else adding competitive flights if they are finally breaking even. Each additional seat will pull them back down a little. Whether the over capacity is theirs or flown by another carrier, the end effect on margin is probably about the same. Hawaiian doesn’t compete so they’d be fine with that.

Unrelated comment. With WN running intra-island, I wonder if HA would ever consider mainland to mainland flights?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:54 pm

The slot violations is valid and Long Beach has every right to go after them.

The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
1836Sam
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:58 pm

As noted in the article in the OP, the slot rules were changed in November and the "use-it-or-lose-it" requirements are much more strict--not really a change in the application of the rules but rather the rules themselves.

http://www.gazettes.com/news/business/l ... 49007.html
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.


More slots to DL isn't going to help B6's profitability. They shouldn't care about allocations to HA.


The only one that B6 is concerned about at LGB is WN, since HA slots aren't going to compete against them. DL likely will just add more SLC slots, which isn't a concern either for them. The most sensitive routes they have are LAS/OAK/SFO/SJC/SMF, all of which would be in greater risk when WN has more slots.

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.

Yes and no. Agreed they will add no new flights. I actually see them exiting at some point completely. I think if gates at LAX were plentiful they’d be gone already. Having said that I’m not sure they want DL or anybody else adding competitive flights if they are finally breaking even. Each additional seat will pull them back down a little. Whether the over capacity is theirs or flown by another carrier, the end effect on margin is probably about the same. Hawaiian doesn’t compete so they’d be fine with that.

Unrelated comment. With WN running intra-island, I wonder if HA would ever consider mainland to mainland flights?


That's what I thought too until I saw the Q4 numbers. With their reduced schedule, they were getting higher yield at LGB on those west coast routes than DL mainline at LAX. Hard to see them topping that at LAX even. But I guess there is plus's to consolidating ops at LAX. I just can't see DL adding flights to places that they are hurting on.
 
ScottB
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:31 pm

richierich wrote:
Sounds like B6 is leaving Long Beach hanging...at some point, they will reduce LGB to just a couple of redeyes and ONT will be the beneficiary of an increased B6 presence. Is it safe to say there would be no love lost between JetBlue and LGB if or when that happens?


They could have built up an increased presence at ONT any time within the past 15 years. There's no shortage of available gates at ONT, no slot limitations, and plenty of room for a couple of new terminals should they be needed. ONT has a functioning international arrivals facility, too! The problem is that the natural catchment area for ONT, San Bernardino and Riverside Counties, ranks lowest in the L.A. region by per capita income which implies less propensity to travel. WN has long been entrenched in most dense short-haul markets from ONT (SJC, OAK, SMF, PHX, LAS) so they'd be in for an expensive fight to take away market share.

LAXintl wrote:
JetBlue troubles continue at LGB. This time over failure to fully utilize its slot holdings as carrier employs day of week and seasonal scheduling practices falling below required slot usage percentages.


Given the recent changes to the slot utilization policy and the fact that other carriers are waiting for slots, the City probably has to force B6 to use the slots (at least up to the new standard) or risk legal action from the airlines on the wait list. And while B6's noise violations have come down tremendously in recent months, they still account for the vast majority of those violations at LGB, and that number is still out of proportion to the size of their operation there.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:36 pm

For a city that is as hell-bent on getting rid of their airport completely - at least to commercial traffic - I find it funny that LGB is now telling B6 to "use their slots".

This mentality from many of the citizens and their elected officials gave us the cognitive dissonance that claims the airport is (a) the largest source of pollution in the city, (b) the largest source of noise in the city, and (c) harming their way of life. Apparently the heavy trucks and never-ending gridlock on the 710 and the 405 freeways produces rose-scented helpful emissions while being as quiet as church mice - in addition to all the other issues facing the city. But the airport is always a good villain.

However, I will defend the right of the city to restrict the airport's usage, as it is within their territorial limits, and alternative options exist within a (relatively) short distance away. If B6 wants to make a commitment to LGB airport, they are going to have to play by those rules. There's no other way around it. Put on your big boy pants, B6, and deal with the situation. If your yields are great out of LGB, figure out how to make it work, or get the h*** out.
 
winginit
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:49 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


I genuinely can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, as the curfews and broader noise abatement are the product of a well documented and almost militant initiative by the Long Beach City Council. That's the exact opposite of 'big government' and the very definition of small, local government in its truest constitutional form.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
This mentality from many of the citizens and their elected officials gave us the cognitive dissonance that claims the airport is (a) the largest source of pollution in the city, (b) the largest source of noise in the city, and (c) harming their way of life. Apparently the heavy trucks and never-ending gridlock on the 710 and the 405 freeways produces rose-scented helpful emissions while being as quiet as church mice - in addition to all the other issues facing the city. But the airport is always a good villain.

However, I will defend the right of the city to restrict the airport's usage, as it is within their territorial limits, and alternative options exist within a (relatively) short distance away. If B6 wants to make a commitment to LGB airport, they are going to have to play by those rules. There's no other way around it. Put on your big boy pants, B6, and deal with the situation. If your yields are great out of LGB, figure out how to make it work, or get the h*** out.


Well summarized.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:36 pm

Remember JetBlue has already Cut flights from it's Peak Schedule a year ago.
But instead of Fully Returning the 13 unused slots back to LGB . JetBlue under the old LGB rules still legally holds the rights to the unused slots.
HA,DL and WN all want the slots.
Only WN has agreed to temporary every 180 days use 9 unused slots for 2 extra SMF,3 LAS and now 4 SJC.
LGB had to take legal action to change the Rules to have legal rights to take them away and relocate them to other airlines.
LGB action is to take away the 13 unused and 2 slots used for less than daily seasonal service. 15 total.
It's gonna happen just the legal loopholes the airport must do against JetBlue.
JetBlue is over LGB as it's west coast focus market times have changed.

Flyguy
Last edited by wnflyguy on Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:43 pm

With LAX expanding, BYE LGB
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:55 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Remember JetBlue has already Cut flights from it's Peak Schedule a year ago.
But instead of Fully Returning the 13 unused slots back to LGB . JetBlue under the old LGB rules still legally holds the rights to the unused slots.
HA,DL and WN all want the slots.
Only WN has agreed to temporary every 180 use 9 unused slots for 2 extra SMF,3 LAS and now 4 SJC.
LGB had to take legal action to change the Rules to have legal rights to take them away and relocate them to other airlines.
LGB action is to take away the 13 unused and 2 slots used for less than daily seasonal service. 15 total.
It's gonna happen just the legal loopholes the airport must do against JetBlue.
JetBlue is over LGB as it's west coast focus market times have changed.

Flyguy

They are still running over 21 flights a day, so they can't have 15 flights taken away. That wouldn't make sense. Even if they go by the 75% usage rule, they still only need to return a few slots. There is no law that says you need to use 100% of slots.

And as long as they can get similar performance as Q4, they are not going to be in a rush to leave.

Now, if WN can help B6 find more gate space at LAX, that would be a different story. But WN would be stupid to do that.
 
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:05 pm

Long Beach City Council members were the issue for B6. B6 had a great idea at the right airport. They crushed them. Greedy city council members who decided B6 needed to pay "their fair share" not at all acknowledging how much they helped the airport and city. The airport was basically forgotten about until JetBlue. I hate companies getting huge subsidies but JetBlue was not that company. City Council members were just out to get them, unfair.

A few people with no knowledge of the industry decided that B6 was making "tons" of money and they had an asset they could put any conditions on and B6 would never leave. People were mad about noise (as always) but a few people over the years decided that B6 needed them and they could do anything, Apparently, all of the homeless people who need help in Long Beach and insane traffic are not issues, but B6 was a "greedy company" who wasn't paying enough is how they looked at B6. Priorities are messed up with some people in Long Beach.

I think the airport needs to be careful. Having some B6 is better than none. JetBlue has been really good for the city, and has been an amazing sponsor of events and the community. If Jetblue leaves, i wouldn't be surprised to see Delta.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:18 pm

JetBlue should return slots. I want more flights!

We should remember what LGB was before JetBlue. It struggled. JetBlue really made the airport.

The curfew violations are a few people gaining too much power. There need to be rules, but seriously, the city built up around a noisy airport. Or were DC-9 test flights somehow quiet? Remember, back then there were more test flights. It wasn't the 1 to 4 flights prior to delivery.

Lightsaber
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ScottB
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:19 pm

tphuang wrote:
They are still running over 21 flights a day, so they can't have 15 flights taken away. That wouldn't make sense. Even if they go by the 75% usage rule, they still only need to return a few slots. There is no law that says you need to use 100% of slots.


No, but the ordinance does require them to use 85% of slots averaged across a year (it's not clear to me at first glance if that's a calendar year or a trailing twelve months). They haven't announced any significant increases at LGB for the summer with what appears to be about 22 daily departures; that would entitle them to retain 26 slots under the standard of 85% usage. That would consequently imply a return of eight slots.
 
winginit
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:20 pm

So all allow me to play devil's advocate here operating under what I think is the correct assumption that for the most part residents of the Long Beach would prefer that LGB didn't even exist...

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
City Council members were just out to get them, unfair.


Are you of the opinion that the opinions of Long Beach's city council members don't align with the majority of Long Beach's residents? I don't live in Long Beach but know many who do, and even the avgeeks aren't supporters of the airport. There is genuine and deep-rooted hatred towards the noise and perceived pollution generated by the airport, and it's even more radical than what you see expressed from El Segundo and Westchester every time an LAX-related EIR goes out for public comment. Point being, I don't think the vocal folks on Long Beach's City Council are out of sync with the general population of Long Beach.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
JetBlue has been really good for the city, and has been an amazing sponsor of events and the community


Again I'm playing devil's advocate here, but how? How has JetBlue been 'really good' for the city of Long Beach apart from throwing a bit of money around to sponsor events that would, frankly, be otherwise sponsored? People will say "well the airport was dead before B6!", but that seems to be exactly what the population wants - a dead airport.
 
carljanderson
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:25 pm

I wonder how many slots DL is requesting? Would they do a 5x SLC, or open up one more destination? If they wanted SLC, they could just get some commuter slots for CRJ700 service.

As far as JetBlue, if they aren't going to present a plan to use the slots, then they should give them back.

However, how can the city make the slot usage requirements more restrictive and not be subject to an ANCA review?
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:26 pm

ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They are still running over 21 flights a day, so they can't have 15 flights taken away. That wouldn't make sense. Even if they go by the 75% usage rule, they still only need to return a few slots. There is no law that says you need to use 100% of slots.


No, but the ordinance does require them to use 85% of slots averaged across a year (it's not clear to me at first glance if that's a calendar year or a trailing twelve months). They haven't announced any significant increases at LGB for the summer with what appears to be about 22 daily departures; that would entitle them to retain 26 slots under the standard of 85% usage. That would consequently imply a return of eight slots.


sure. I'm simply disputing the idea that they will have 15 slots taken away when they are not using 12 to 13 slots on any given day.

Given the bad relationship that B6 has with LGB, I expect them to be a pain in the behind and drag this out as long as they could. Specifically the part about slot usage rule changes.
 
PanzerPowner
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:39 pm

LGB Resident Here, I don't want to see B6 to depart, and I think that the community really isnt as negative as the city council paints it, perhaps its that I'm a little bit over away from the airport but, when driving on Willow Street right by the airport with planes flying overhead, they really do not cause that much noise. It makes me think how do people really find an excuse to complain about these jets considering the 405 literally passes right next to them aswell.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
jplatts
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:43 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
HA,DL and WN all want the slots.
Only WN has agreed to temporary every 180 days use 9 unused slots for 2 extra SMF,3 LAS and now 4 SJC.


I agree that the 9 temporary slots WN currently uses on LGB-SMF, LGB-LAS, and LGB-SJC should be made permanent. WN is also likely to add LGB-PHX nonstop service if it can acquire extra slots at LGB.
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:50 pm

I don’t buy the noise issue one bit. LGB does a fraction of what other nimby related secondary LA area airports do like SNA and BUR. On top of that unlike the others I mentioned that have short runways, LGB has a 10,000 runway so there aren’t the full power takeoffs and in regards to landings LGB has a generous threshold so these planes aren’t barely clearing the rooftops on arrival. This is nothing more than a political stunt to enact more unnecessary laws and regulations and increasing revenue for the city and its council.

If noise is an issue maybe they should look at all the GA that goes in and out all day as the problem.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:50 pm

I don’t buy the noise issue one bit. LGB does a fraction of what other nimby related secondary LA area airports do like SNA and BUR. On top of that unlike the others I mentioned that have short runways, LGB has a 10,000 runway so there aren’t the full power takeoffs and in regards to landings LGB has a generous threshold so these planes aren’t barely clearing the rooftops on arrival. This is nothing more than a political stunt to enact more unnecessary laws and regulations and increasing revenue for the city and its council.

If noise is an issue maybe they should look at all the GA that goes in and out all day as the problem.
717 727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 742 748 752 753 762 763 772 773 DC9 MD80/88/90 DC10 319 320 321 332 333 CS100 CRJ200 Q400 E175 E190 ERJ145 EMB120
 
DarthLobster
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:03 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


Where in the constitution does it forbid municipalities from placing such restrictions? It seems that the term “unconstitutional” is this century’s version of calling someone a communist solely because you disagree with them.
 
ScottB
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:42 pm

nine4nine wrote:
I don’t buy the noise issue one bit. LGB does a fraction of what other nimby related secondary LA area airports do like SNA and BUR. On top of that unlike the others I mentioned that have short runways, LGB has a 10,000 runway so there aren’t the full power takeoffs and in regards to landings LGB has a generous threshold so these planes aren’t barely clearing the rooftops on arrival. This is nothing more than a political stunt to enact more unnecessary laws and regulations and increasing revenue for the city and its council.


The way the ordinance is written is entirely about noise. The number of slots available is designed to ensure the airport stays under a cumulative noise limit (the noise budget). As it so happens, in 2016 the airport increased the number of available slots from 41 to 50 because quieter aircraft (i.e. MD-80s replaced by A320s) had reduced cumulative noise emissions at the airport; that slot increase is how WN was able to begin service at LGB.

How exactly would reducing airline service at LGB increase revenue for the City? (Not to mention that airport revenues by federal law must be spent on airport operations/projects.) If you're talking about B6's fines for violating the curfew, well, that's on B6. In 2018, they had nearly seven times as many operations between 11 PM and 7 AM as all other commercial carriers at the airport combined even though they only accounted for two-thirds of all commercial operations.

tphuang wrote:
Given the bad relationship that B6 has with LGB, I expect them to be a pain in the behind and drag this out as long as they could. Specifically the part about slot usage rule changes.


If LGB has become profitable again for them as you claim, then they likely have an interest in restricting growth by other carriers (apart from HA which doesn't compete) at the airport. Additional WN service to SJC/OAK/SMF/LAS (and potentially SFO) or DL service to SLC or SEA would negatively impact their yields and profits.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Remember JetBlue has already Cut flights from it's Peak Schedule a year ago.
But instead of Fully Returning the 13 unused slots back to LGB . JetBlue under the old LGB rules still legally holds the rights to the unused slots.
HA,DL and WN all want the slots.
Only WN has agreed to temporary every 180 use 9 unused slots for 2 extra SMF,3 LAS and now 4 SJC.
LGB had to take legal action to change the Rules to have legal rights to take them away and relocate them to other airlines.
LGB action is to take away the 13 unused and 2 slots used for less than daily seasonal service. 15 total.
It's gonna happen just the legal loopholes the airport must do against JetBlue.
JetBlue is over LGB as it's west coast focus market times have changed.

Flyguy

They are still running over 21 flights a day, so they can't have 15 flights taken away. That wouldn't make sense. Even if they go by the 75% usage rule, they still only need to return a few slots. There is no law that says you need to use 100% of slots.

And as long as they can get similar performance as Q4, they are not going to be in a rush to leave.

Now, if WN can help B6 find more gate space at LAX, that would be a different story. But WN would be stupid to do that.


A year ago B6 had 34 daily slots for flights.
Then it dropped 13 flights by reducing frequency
And eliminated LGB-FLL again.
They Airport at that time anticipated B6 to return the 13 unused slots .But since the Old rules didn't require them to so they didn't.
So LGB by the request of the other airlines Finally updates the outdated slot allocation in 2018 for 2019 and beyond.
JetBlue currently uses a Majority of their slots to the full potential.
One slot ( I thought it was 2) is used for seasonal service and is subject to removal under the new allocation since it doesn't meet the allotted percentage.

I don't see JetBlue losing anything other that legally giving up the slots they aren't using today.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:22 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
However, I will defend the right of the city to restrict the airport's usage, as it is within their territorial limits,

Yet they take federal airport improvement grants.


For today's unrelated thread creep, is there still a DC-3 operation on the field that flies to catalina?
FLYi
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:23 pm

ScottB wrote:

If LGB has become profitable again for them as you claim, then they likely have an interest in restricting growth by other carriers (apart from HA which doesn't compete) at the airport. Additional WN service to SJC/OAK/SMF/LAS (and potentially SFO) or DL service to SLC or SEA would negatively impact their yields and profits.


Well, it's only been one quarter. Q4 could be a complete abnormality. Keep in mind that DL actually operated 3 flights a day to SLC for most of Q4 vs 4 flights a day for most of Q3, so I'm not convinced they actually care to operate more than that on LGB-SLC. And I think they'd be crazy to do LGB-SEA.

As for the shorthaul stuff, also keep in mind that WN had used those temporary slots from LGB for most of Q4. They were running schedules of 4x OAK, 4x SMF, 3x LAS. The only additional change is starting 4x SJC this year, which they got from temporary slots. If eventually B6 ends up holding 26 slots at the end, 15 slots is most likely all WN will have.

How many flights WN had for each route in Q4 (counting both directions)
OAK 657
SMF 681
LAS 522

So vs Q4, the only route that will see more competition going forward is SJC.

I think the only difference here is that WN will get the slots as permanent vs temporary?

wnflyguy wrote:
A year ago B6 had 34 daily slots for flights.
Then it dropped 13 flights by reducing frequency
And eliminated LGB-FLL again.
They Airport at that time anticipated B6 to return the 13 unused slots .But since the Old rules didn't require them to so they didn't.
So LGB by the request of the other airlines Finally updates the outdated slot allocation in 2018 for 2019 and beyond.
JetBlue currently uses a Majority of their slots to the full potential.
One slot ( I thought it was 2) is used for seasonal service and is subject to removal under the new allocation since it doesn't meet the allotted percentage.

I don't see JetBlue losing anything other that legally giving up the slots they aren't using today.

Flyguy

they did eliminate LGB-FLL, but they added a flight on LGB-SEA. They are at 21 to 22 flights a day. They will likely have to give 8 or 9 additional slots to achieve the 85% usage as per new guideline. But as I said, WN already got those slots temporarily! There is not additional slots.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:41 pm

ScottB
Nobody said anything about reducing service. My point was that the City has for decades created a unfriendly business policy when it came to the airport and it’s tenants. Besides the low yields and lackluster facilities they couldn’t get much in the way of service from anyone other than public charter carriers that lasted only about a year each and a few daily flights to DFW on AA and a few to PHX with HP. Nobody clammored over each other to get into LGB and nobody still has. It is the worst airport in So-Cal on endless levels.

As far as curfew violations go this airport is better suited for local and regional operations and not transcon service that typically fly to places where weather and ATC issues abound.

Best thing for the city of Long Beach and B6 to do is say adieu and part ways.

Long Beach as a city has a very long list of other more important pending social issues that should be focused on rather than this endless ongoing slot control dilemma at the airport.
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impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:47 pm

Here's a plan: B6 makes LGB a mostly A220 base and LAX remains a smaller A321 base, and then LGB can shut their pie hole about noise. Win win.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:57 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
With LAX expanding, BYE LGB


With WN expanding, BYE B6
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:09 pm

flyPIT wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
However, I will defend the right of the city to restrict the airport's usage, as it is within their territorial limits,

Yet they take federal airport improvement grants.


As do many other airports around the U.S. with a curfew, SNA, BUR, and SAN among them. Some are more restricted than others, but they are what they are.
 
ScottB
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:36 pm

nine4nine wrote:
My point was that the City has for decades created a unfriendly business policy when it came to the airport and it’s tenants. Besides the low yields and lackluster facilities they couldn’t get much in the way of service from anyone other than public charter carriers that lasted only about a year each and a few daily flights to DFW on AA and a few to PHX with HP. Nobody clammored over each other to get into LGB and nobody still has. It is the worst airport in So-Cal on endless levels.

As far as curfew violations go this airport is better suited for local and regional operations and not transcon service that typically fly to places where weather and ATC issues abound.


When B6 originally announced the planned focus city at LGB, the City welcomed them with open arms and gave them every single available slot. They even relaxed the slot usage rules so that B6 could have up to two years to build their operation and there ultimately was a (threatened?) court case as AA (and perhaps another carrier) sued to get some of those slots which had been gobbled up by B6. AA flew LGB-JFK and LGB-ORD for a while but ultimately abandoned the route.

The old trailers were indeed embarrassing but the City ultimately delivered on a nice facility which also wasn't too extravagant, so airport costs remained modest. And B6 responded by reducing service until threatened by WN's entry.

One of the key issues IMO was that B6 assumed the City would modify the slot ordinance to allow E190s to use commuter slots, which would have allowed B6 to get closer to ~60 daily departures -- much more competitive with the short-haul options available at other airports in the region and with only 2/3 the seats to fill.

Other airlines manage to cope with an even more draconian curfew at SNA, with an even broader portfolio of transcon flights. If you're past curfew at SNA, you're not landing (unless it's an emergency).
 
nine4nine
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:54 pm

ScottB wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
My point was that the City has for decades created a unfriendly business policy when it came to the airport and it’s tenants. Besides the low yields and lackluster facilities they couldn’t get much in the way of service from anyone other than public charter carriers that lasted only about a year each and a few daily flights to DFW on AA and a few to PHX with HP. Nobody clammored over each other to get into LGB and nobody still has. It is the worst airport in So-Cal on endless levels.

As far as curfew violations go this airport is better suited for local and regional operations and not transcon service that typically fly to places where weather and ATC issues abound.


When B6 originally announced the planned focus city at LGB, the City welcomed them with open arms and gave them every single available slot. They even relaxed the slot usage rules so that B6 could have up to two years to build their operation and there ultimately was a (threatened?) court case as AA (and perhaps another carrier) sued to get some of those slots which had been gobbled up by B6. AA flew LGB-JFK and LGB-ORD for a while but ultimately abandoned the route.

The old trailers were indeed embarrassing but the City ultimately delivered on a nice facility which also wasn't too extravagant, so airport costs remained modest. And B6 responded by reducing service until threatened by WN's entry.

One of the key issues IMO was that B6 assumed the City would modify the slot ordinance to allow E190s to use commuter slots, which would have allowed B6 to get closer to ~60 daily departures -- much more competitive with the short-haul options available at other airports in the region and with only 2/3 the seats to fill.

Other airlines manage to cope with an even more draconian curfew at SNA, with an even broader portfolio of transcon flights. If you're past curfew at SNA, you're not landing (unless it's an emergency).



Agree on a lot of this although none of us are privy to the conversations and negotiations between B6 and the City of Long Beach and the Airport Authority. Maybe each overpromised the other in regards to the extent of operations. Who knows.

I think that B6 was like you said hoping to utilize the commuter slots to run regional shuttle flights but that didn’t work. I believe they also planned on the FiS facility happening too but that got shot down as well. Kind of hard running a real focus city when you really only have about 40 total slots to work with.

WN does that alone at many standard non focus/hub cities.

But it’s been a bad marriage after the honeymoon phase and probably about time to break up and move on and split the assets between other regional airports in So-Cal.
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RWA380
Posts: 5445
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:09 pm

tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.


More slots to DL isn't going to help B6's profitability. They shouldn't care about allocations to HA.


The only one that B6 is concerned about at LGB is WN, since HA slots aren't going to compete against them. DL likely will just add more SLC slots, which isn't a concern either for them. The most sensitive routes they have are LAS/OAK/SFO/SJC/SMF, all of which would be in greater risk when WN has more slots.

enilria wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I can tell you one thing, they are not going to add more flights!

After the reduction last year, they were finally profitable at LGB for the first time in 2 years. I'm sure they will have no issue with HA and DL getting more slots.

Yes and no. Agreed they will add no new flights. I actually see them exiting at some point completely. I think if gates at LAX were plentiful they’d be gone already. Having said that I’m not sure they want DL or anybody else adding competitive flights if they are finally breaking even. Each additional seat will pull them back down a little. Whether the over capacity is theirs or flown by another carrier, the end effect on margin is probably about the same. Hawaiian doesn’t compete so they’d be fine with that.

Unrelated comment. With WN running intra-island, I wonder if HA would ever consider mainland to mainland flights?


That's what I thought too until I saw the Q4 numbers. With their reduced schedule, they were getting higher yield at LGB on those west coast routes than DL mainline at LAX. Hard to see them topping that at LAX even. But I guess there is plus's to consolidating ops at LAX. I just can't see DL adding flights to places that they are hurting on.


In regards to HA, wasn't their new tie in with B6 the reason that HA launched their HNL flight & BOS after that? I know that there is likely enough O/D demand for HA to retain it's current schedule at LGB, but I do have to wonder if B6 cuts back at LGB, would HA be so eager to add OGG or KOA to LGB? I could see HA wanting to sure up other West Coast markets that WN may enter with their future A-321neo deliveries.

Also, if WN gets more slots, couldn't WN launch their own service out of LGB? Furthering their opportunity the fly to Hawaii from So. Cal. & avoid LAX altogether. hopefully starting ONT as well.
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cschleic
Posts: 1661
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:10 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
The slot violations is valid and Long Beach has every right to go after them.

The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


So you're ok with government imposed slot restrictions but not curfew restrictions?
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:24 pm

RWA380 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

More slots to DL isn't going to help B6's profitability. They shouldn't care about allocations to HA.


The only one that B6 is concerned about at LGB is WN, since HA slots aren't going to compete against them. DL likely will just add more SLC slots, which isn't a concern either for them. The most sensitive routes they have are LAS/OAK/SFO/SJC/SMF, all of which would be in greater risk when WN has more slots.

enilria wrote:
Yes and no. Agreed they will add no new flights. I actually see them exiting at some point completely. I think if gates at LAX were plentiful they’d be gone already. Having said that I’m not sure they want DL or anybody else adding competitive flights if they are finally breaking even. Each additional seat will pull them back down a little. Whether the over capacity is theirs or flown by another carrier, the end effect on margin is probably about the same. Hawaiian doesn’t compete so they’d be fine with that.

Unrelated comment. With WN running intra-island, I wonder if HA would ever consider mainland to mainland flights?


That's what I thought too until I saw the Q4 numbers. With their reduced schedule, they were getting higher yield at LGB on those west coast routes than DL mainline at LAX. Hard to see them topping that at LAX even. But I guess there is plus's to consolidating ops at LAX. I just can't see DL adding flights to places that they are hurting on.


In regards to HA, wasn't their new tie in with B6 the reason that HA launched their HNL flight & BOS after that? I know that there is likely enough O/D demand for HA to retain it's current schedule at LGB, but I do have to wonder if B6 cuts back at LGB, would HA be so eager to add OGG or KOA to LGB? I could see HA wanting to sure up other West Coast markets that WN may enter with their future A-321neo deliveries.

Also, if WN gets more slots, couldn't WN launch their own service out of LGB? Furthering their opportunity the fly to Hawaii from So. Cal. & avoid LAX altogether. hopefully starting ONT as well.


HA is beyond happy with the response and results for LGB-HNL.
HA told LGB it would like to add another daily flight to operate 5 days a week on Sunday,Monday,Thursday ,Friday for LGB-OGG and 2 days a week Wednesday,Saturday for LGB-KOA.
But not on a temporary basis as WN is currently doing with LAS and SJC. It would definitely add a additional flight if they were permanent slots.
The Void left by Aloha then United for the SNA-Hawaii market place is being well received in LGB.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3756
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:40 pm

If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:22 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !


Well they have been increasing service at all those airports and can’t get anymore gate space at LAX. If they could, they’d ditch LGB in a heartbeat and do straight LAX. Not that easy to just roll in to LAX though with no gate space. And they tried to buy virgin specifically for west coast flying.
 
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remcor
Posts: 366
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:43 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


Where in the constitution does it forbid municipalities from placing such restrictions? It seems that the term “unconstitutional” is this century’s version of calling someone a communist solely because you disagree with them.


Reminds me of my stoner friends way back in high school "dude, where in the Constitution does it say I can't smoke weed?"
 
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Hydrahawk
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:10 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:02 am

As a former LB resident, I was really happy B6 came to LGB! My first flight out of the airport was is a 152 or 172, couldn’t remember. Back in the early 2000s, I flew back from BHM-LGB via DFW with AA. Much better than flying into LAX or SNA. Back on the subject, my girlfriend at the time go to school near Sacramento so before B6, I flew SW to SMF. For low fares, I would drive to Burbank to catch a flight, morning flight to be exact. When B6 came to town, flying to SMF became easier. As for noise, I lived near the 605 freeway (El Dorado Park), I would hear more freeway noise than commercial aircraft noise. There were occasions that the main runway was closed and I would see an A320 overhead lining up for 25R. My girlfriend’s house was near Spring/Willow, which is right across the airport. When I spend the night I was not too bothered with the aircraft noise. But when the F-18 came in, it was loud!
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:26 am

carljanderson wrote:
I wonder how many slots DL is requesting? Would they do a 5x SLC, or open up one more destination? If they wanted SLC, they could just get some commuter slots for CRJ700 service.

I wonder if DL would try LGB-LAS with an additional slot? They have developed a decently-size LAS-California P2P operation over the last few years (LAX, SAN, SNA and SJC).
 
flyby519
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:41 am

strfyr51 wrote:
If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !


LAX is very very difficult to get gate space, JB has recently started ONT service, SNA cant make transconds eastbound with their existing fleet(not to mention the lack of slots available), BUR can't handle 321 Mint a/c, and SAN has been a successful city for them and they have been expanding.

There aren't many good options on the west coast for expansion.
 
Chemist
Posts: 521
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:53 am

"We don't really want you here, but dammit use your slots!"
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:15 am

RWA380 wrote:

In regards to HA, wasn't their new tie in with B6 the reason that HA launched their HNL flight & BOS after that? I know that there is likely enough O/D demand for HA to retain it's current schedule at LGB, but I do have to wonder if B6 cuts back at LGB, would HA be so eager to add OGG or KOA to LGB?


HA and B6 don't really connect at LGB due HA timings.
Biggest link at LGB was B6 giving HA the slot allowing them to enter the airport.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
tphuang
Posts: 2897
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:16 am

HVNandrew wrote:
I wonder if DL would try LGB-LAS with an additional slot? They have developed a decently-size LAS-California P2P operation over the last few years (LAX, SAN, SNA and SJC).

Not a chance. They don't make money with SNA/SJC/SAN-LAS and LGB-LAS is a worse market.

strfyr51 wrote:
If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !

They can't get enough space at LAX. They don't want any part of that battle at SAN between WN/AS. SNA is slot restricted and they don't have an aircraft that can operate to east coast yet, but A220 will change that. SNA will be limited for them though. BUR is dominated by WN and they will have a hard time competing with what WN has on the shorthaul route.

At this point, they could sink in a bunch of money and commit their best new planes A321NEO and A220 for the intra-west coast bloodbath or they could continue strengthen BOS/FLL. The choice is pretty clear here. This is not 2016 anymore when they were getting great margins at BOS and can afford to take chances elsewhere.

wnflyguy wrote:
HA is beyond happy with the response and results for LGB-HNL.
HA told LGB it would like to add another daily flight to operate 5 days a week on Sunday,Monday,Thursday ,Friday for LGB-OGG and 2 days a week Wednesday,Saturday for LGB-KOA.
But not on a temporary basis as WN is currently doing with LAS and SJC. It would definitely add a additional flight if they were permanent slots.
The Void left by Aloha then United for the SNA-Hawaii market place is being well received in LGB.

Flyguy

I mean it's a decent route, but we will have to see if it will improve to be comparable to LAX performance level. $312 avg fare with 79% LF in Q4. As a comparison, LAX-HNL is about the same avg fare but 90+% LF.

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