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Super80Fan
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:27 am

DarthLobster wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


Where in the constitution does it forbid municipalities from placing such restrictions? It seems that the term “unconstitutional” is this century’s version of calling someone a communist solely because you disagree with them.


Curfews on airports have already been ruled unconstitutional, not sure how LGB gets away with it, maybe because B6 doesn't complain too much?

Read City of Burbank v. Lockheed Air Terminal Inc. Supreme Court ruled against the city.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
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RWA380
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:49 am

janders wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

In regards to HA, wasn't their new tie in with B6 the reason that HA launched their HNL flight & BOS after that? I know that there is likely enough O/D demand for HA to retain it's current schedule at LGB, but I do have to wonder if B6 cuts back at LGB, would HA be so eager to add OGG or KOA to LGB?


HA and B6 don't really connect at LGB due HA timings.
Biggest link at LGB was B6 giving HA the slot allowing them to enter the airport.


Fair enough, I think AUS was one of the only flights that connected out to Hawaii & I don't think B6 operates any departures after HA arrives. But I still think their what ever you wish to call it, tie-in does give B6 access to Hawaii & HA a few other cities via LGB, JFK & BOS. Most flights could connect on the return to JFK or BOS, since they are both early AM arrivals, LGB is not. I won't argue that there likely is enough local demand for two A-321's, I would thn expect HA to try & return to ONT or I think WN will start it. Since B6 is likely to lose slots now, why wouldn't they pass one onto HA for the new service?
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N292UX
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:55 am

carljanderson wrote:
I wonder how many slots DL is requesting? Would they do a 5x SLC, or open up one more destination? If they wanted SLC, they could just get some commuter slots for CRJ700 service.

As far as JetBlue, if they aren't going to present a plan to use the slots, then they should give them back.

However, how can the city make the slot usage requirements more restrictive and not be subject to an ANCA review?

I'd quietly be thinking about ATL-LGB. They've had a boost recently when it comes to ATL-California, and they've added ATL-BUR/ONT/PSP. By that logic, you'd think LGB would have to be on their radar.
 
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spinkid
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:18 am

At one point I recall B6 adding flights to LAS to squat on their slots. I think they need to make a decision on Long Beach. If they want to grow it slowly and keep these slots they are going to have to throw some LGB-LAS/PHX turns on there, and then route them through to some other places.

Otherwise just wind the whole operation down and pull out. I have a feeling Delta and WN won't be as interested anymore and LGB can go back to begging G4 to offer 2x weekly to Bellingham .
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:51 am

I get that some people want the airport dead and probably did buy houses when it pretty much was. I do understand that. It just seemed like some city council members were on a you need us more than we need you power Trip. They seemed to think B6 was pouring in money hand over fist and if you leave every airline would move in and replace you attitude. I do feel for people who purchased houses when the airport was pretty quiet commercially but that is a small number , and those houses are not unsellable.

Would southwest want as many slots as B6 has?

I wouldn't be surprised if Frontier gave a run on a focus city , but they would want incentives or a really good deal.
 
cynlb
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:09 am

This just in-
JetBlue relinquishes nearly a third of its flight slots at Long Beach Airport
http://www.presstelegram.com/2019/04/09 ... h-airport/
 
carljanderson
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:24 am

cynlb wrote:
This just in-
JetBlue relinquishes nearly a third of its flight slots at Long Beach Airport
http://www.presstelegram.com/2019/04/09 ... h-airport/


well that ended quickly.. So there are 10 slots now available.. I would guess 6 or 7 going to WN, 1 to HA and 1 or 2 to DL (unless a new entrant applies).
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:41 am

Zero shock. I think the only people surprised sit on the city council.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:15 am

Hilarious how B6 just dumped the slots back on the councils table , like a BOSS. Those 320's are better utilized at other airports.
 
grbauc
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:27 am

UPlog wrote:
JetBlue’s problems at LGB are all its own doing.

From curfew violations to now slot squatting, they should know better. LB is right to throw the book at them for ongoing ignorance of operating rules.


If life and business was so easy. I'm sure there fully knowledgeable and not ignorant has you claim. JetBlue has tried to make LGB work with legacy and WN adding flights (in a way squatting) to battle JB. JB has stuck with LB and seems/ appears to have found that running a tighter schedule has found the balance to keep the schedule working. Long beach is and should be able to fine or take the slots away and could/should if there is other airlines willing to. But maybe just maybe Long beach actually recognizes that JetBlue is a valuable customer and that they need them to be profitable and to continue at LB.

JetBlue is hardly ignorant of the rules. Running a business will give you a much better understanding of the complexities of trying to do business.

The airport giving JB some leadway is fine and smart, this just sounds like a warning to JB not to abuse the charity.
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:31 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Hilarious how B6 just dumped the slots back on the councils table , like a BOSS. Those 320's are better utilized at other airports.



I love it. Would be even better if they just said good bye nice to know you and split up ops between LAX,BUR, and ONT. I wish the airport would just be turned into endless blocks of apartments and strip malls so the NIMBYs and council members can get a nice night of sleep and maybe actually turn energy and focus on the vagrants and derelicts that have overridden the city and turned 70% of it into a slum.
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nine4nine
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:48 am

grbauc wrote:
UPlog wrote:
JetBlue’s problems at LGB are all its own doing.


JetBlue is hardly ignorant of the rules. Running a business will give you a much better understanding of the complexities of trying to do business.



Just shows how clueless govt officials are to business. I looked at all of the personal bio’s on the current council members and not one of them has ever owned a business. Most of them have economics degrees but that doesn’t mean a thing if you’ve never owned a business and been on the receiving end of regulations rather than writing them.
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many321
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:53 am

nine4nine wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Hilarious how B6 just dumped the slots back on the councils table , like a BOSS. Those 320's are better utilized at other airports.



I love it. Would be even better if they just said good bye nice to know you and split up ops between LAX,BUR, and ONT..


I'd love to come in one day on a.net to read B6 did this and the officials at LB have a case of the vapors. I know LAX (if slots are open), BUR and ONT would be happy take them with open arms.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:03 am

carljanderson wrote:
cynlb wrote:
This just in-
JetBlue relinquishes nearly a third of its flight slots at Long Beach Airport
http://www.presstelegram.com/2019/04/09 ... h-airport/


well that ended quickly.. So there are 10 slots now available.. I would guess 6 or 7 going to WN, 1 to HA and 1 or 2 to DL (unless a new entrant applies).


So they finally will officially give back 10 of the 12 unused slots.
Why just not return all 12 and be done with it already.
LGB will still be under pressure to reallocate the remaining 2 unused slots.
WN already using 9 temporary slots until July 31 2019.
So I imagine new permanent slots will be awarded for a August 1 2019 activation.

Now the question is will DL or HA take the availability?

Last round DL and HA passed.
Will WN get the 9 to keep current schedule in place.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
strfyr51
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:23 am

tphuang wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
I wonder if DL would try LGB-LAS with an additional slot? They have developed a decently-size LAS-California P2P operation over the last few years (LAX, SAN, SNA and SJC).

Not a chance. They don't make money with SNA/SJC/SAN-LAS and LGB-LAS is a worse market.

strfyr51 wrote:
If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !

They can't get enough space at LAX. They don't want any part of that battle at SAN between WN/AS. SNA is slot restricted and they don't have an aircraft that can operate to east coast yet, but A220 will change that. SNA will be limited for them though. BUR is dominated by WN and they will have a hard time competing with what WN has on the shorthaul route.

At this point, they could sink in a bunch of money and commit their best new planes A321NEO and A220 for the intra-west coast bloodbath or they could continue strengthen BOS/FLL. The choice is pretty clear here. This is not 2016 anymore when they were getting great margins at BOS and can afford to take chances elsewhere.

wnflyguy wrote:
HA is beyond happy with the response and results for LGB-HNL.
HA told LGB it would like to add another daily flight to operate 5 days a week on Sunday,Monday,Thursday ,Friday for LGB-OGG and 2 days a week Wednesday,Saturday for LGB-KOA.
But not on a temporary basis as WN is currently doing with LAS and SJC. It would definitely add a additional flight if they were permanent slots.
The Void left by Aloha then United for the SNA-Hawaii market place is being well received in LGB.

Flyguy

I mean it's a decent route, but we will have to see if it will improve to be comparable to LAX performance level. $312 avg fare with 79% LF in Q4. As a comparison, LAX-HNL is about the same avg fare but 90+% LF.



Are those reasons or Excuses? If they intend to REALLY operate possible Transatlantic routes? Then they'll need to get in and Compete where the competition IS!
At the major west coast hubs. They need to actually BE where passengers arriving can get TO them. And to where business is DONE. They can't hide..
They're the size of AS and if AS is in the "Rough and Tumble"? Then JBLU has to put on their
'Big Boy Pants" and Wade in as well. They do NOT have to fly coastal So-CAL to Northern CA or north to PDX and SEA . But there's no reason to NOT be flying from the "western strongholds" to their "Crown Jewel" at JFK, That's a premier Gateway!! They have an advantage that some other carriers do NOT have. (including United..) If they're going to play in the "Big Leagues"? Then they cannot Be Timid.. Get in there where the action is with a plan and Do IT!! Or? Admit they're a second tier carrier and get out of the way. I'd bet? They do NOT want to play AAA Ball, but in the Majors...
 
impilot
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:33 am

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
I wonder if DL would try LGB-LAS with an additional slot? They have developed a decently-size LAS-California P2P operation over the last few years (LAX, SAN, SNA and SJC).

Not a chance. They don't make money with SNA/SJC/SAN-LAS and LGB-LAS is a worse market.

strfyr51 wrote:
If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !

They can't get enough space at LAX. They don't want any part of that battle at SAN between WN/AS. SNA is slot restricted and they don't have an aircraft that can operate to east coast yet, but A220 will change that. SNA will be limited for them though. BUR is dominated by WN and they will have a hard time competing with what WN has on the shorthaul route.

At this point, they could sink in a bunch of money and commit their best new planes A321NEO and A220 for the intra-west coast bloodbath or they could continue strengthen BOS/FLL. The choice is pretty clear here. This is not 2016 anymore when they were getting great margins at BOS and can afford to take chances elsewhere.

wnflyguy wrote:
HA is beyond happy with the response and results for LGB-HNL.
HA told LGB it would like to add another daily flight to operate 5 days a week on Sunday,Monday,Thursday ,Friday for LGB-OGG and 2 days a week Wednesday,Saturday for LGB-KOA.
But not on a temporary basis as WN is currently doing with LAS and SJC. It would definitely add a additional flight if they were permanent slots.
The Void left by Aloha then United for the SNA-Hawaii market place is being well received in LGB.

Flyguy

I mean it's a decent route, but we will have to see if it will improve to be comparable to LAX performance level. $312 avg fare with 79% LF in Q4. As a comparison, LAX-HNL is about the same avg fare but 90+% LF.



Are those reasons or Excuses? If they intend to REALLY operate possible Transatlantic routes? Then they'll need to get in and Compete where the competition IS!
At the major west coast hubs. They need to actually BE where passengers arriving can get TO them. And to where business is DONE. They can't hide..
They're the size of AS and if AS is in the "Rough and Tumble"? Then JBLU has to put on their
'Big Boy Pants" and Wade in as well. They do NOT have to fly coastal So-CAL to Northern CA or north to PDX and SEA . But there's no reason to NOT be flying from the "western strongholds" to their "Crown Jewel" at JFK, That's a premier Gateway!! They have an advantage that some other carriers do NOT have. (including United..) If they're going to play in the "Big Leagues"? Then they cannot Be Timid.. Get in there where the action is with a plan and Do IT!! Or? Admit they're a second tier carrier and get out of the way. I'd bet? They do NOT want to play AAA Ball, but in the Majors...


Lol what are you talking about. They fly from BOS and JFK to DEN, LAS, SLC, PHX, SAN, ONT, LGB, LAX, PSP, BUR, OAK, SMF, SJC, SFO, RNO, PDX, and SEA. Many of those with business class cabins.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:44 am

I can't imagine ha or da want 10 slots. So que WN. I would guess WN wants them , but that doesn't mean they will work. Unlike b6 wn has larger operations in LAX and SNA so just under cutting themselves to the same destinations , not sure that works longterm.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:56 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Hilarious how B6 just dumped the slots back on the councils table , like a BOSS. Those 320's are better utilized at other airports.

B6 just told the council that they are expanding elsewhere.

WN will probably take the most slots.
HA a few.

I hope DL connects ATL with frequency.

Lightsaber
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OzarkD9S
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:12 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

I can't imagine ha or da want 10 slots. So que WN. I would guess WN wants them , but that doesn't mean they will work. Unlike b6 wn has larger operations in LAX and SNA so just under cutting themselves to the same destinations , not sure that works longterm.


I think the LA Basin is big enough for WN to expand LGB without hurting their other area operations. Didn't WN lose some SNA slots not too long ago? LGB expansion would make up for some of that. I could see DEN, MDW and maybe HOU added for network access.
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ScottB
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:48 am

CobaltScar wrote:
Hilarious how B6 just dumped the slots back on the councils table , like a BOSS. Those 320's are better utilized at other airports.


It's exactly what the City was asking them to do. I'm not sure I see the hilarity. WN has six slots and is borrowing another nine (i.e. if B6 were to have actually wanted to use any of those slots, WN would have to drop flights) for a total of fifteen. DL and HA have both raised their hands for one or more additional slots. So... B6 gives the slots back to the airport and other airlines use them. Hilarious! If anything WN might lose a few slots if both DL and HA end up taking slots from the waiting list.

nine4nine wrote:
I love it. Would be even better if they just said good bye nice to know you and split up ops between LAX,BUR, and ONT.


Except there just aren't enough open gates to replicate the operation anywhere but ONT, and ONT is going to be even uglier for them financially than LGB has been. Splitting up the operation between multiple airports is a recipe for failure; customers in a given region typically don't want to have to deal with the complexity of "which airport am I using this week?"

grbauc wrote:
JetBlue has tried to make LGB work with legacy and WN adding flights (in a way squatting) to battle JB. JB has stuck with LB and seems/ appears to have found that running a tighter schedule has found the balance to keep the schedule working. Long beach is and should be able to fine or take the slots away and could/should if there is other airlines willing to. But maybe just maybe Long beach actually recognizes that JetBlue is a valuable customer and that they need them to be profitable and to continue at LB.


B6 actually has been squatting on LGB slots for years. It was strategically brilliant for WN to enter LGB when the supplemental slots became available; that finally forced B6 to either lose money operating flights for most/all of their slots or give the slots back.

Honestly, if B6 exited LGB it's extremely unlikely that all their slots would be taken up. I think the other carriers would stay and WN might add a frequency or two to SJC/OAK/SMF/LAS as well as the obvious connection to PHX. But there certainly wouldn't be demand for 24 more slots. I suppose one could call WN staying in LGB "squatting" since it's a deterrent to anyone else starting another short-haul operation at LGB but they're actually offering service and presumably going to price flights to adequately fill the planes. Are they "squatting" at BUR with 70+ daily flights? There's nowhere near enough space at BUR for anyone to build an effective competitive presence.

I don't think Long Beach has been trying to push JetBlue out. I think they want JetBlue to be a better neighbor (i.e. don't bust the curfew 400+ times a year and don't squat on slots you have no intention of using). B6 announced its reduction in operations at LGB over 11 months ago but they're only now returning slots after the City threatened to take them away. That's not being a good neighbor or business partner.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:28 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

I can't imagine ha or da want 10 slots. So que WN. I would guess WN wants them , but that doesn't mean they will work. Unlike b6 wn has larger operations in LAX and SNA so just under cutting themselves to the same destinations , not sure that works longterm.


I think the LA Basin is big enough for WN to expand LGB without hurting their other area operations. Didn't WN lose some SNA slots not too long ago? LGB expansion would make up for some of that. I could see DEN, MDW and maybe HOU added for network access.


Yes WN went from 72 flights at it's peak at SNA.
But they weren't permanent slots and was forced to scale back to 48 flights.
LGB is definitely a back fill for SNA since it captures some of the same traffic.
If WN were to get all 10 slots it will use 9 to keep it's current temporary service fly 2 xtra SMF,4 SJC and 3 LAS.
The 10th slot would probably make DEN a Daily flight vs just SAT/SUN.
Long shot they could add 1 LGB-HNL.

But If WN get let's say 7 of 10.
Would be enough for 2 extra SMF ,4 SJC and 1 LAS.
B6 still squatting on 2 unused slots so WN could just keep every 180 days adding 2 xtra temporary LAS flights keeping its current schedule.


Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:48 pm

wnflyguy wrote:

So they finally will officially give back 10 of the 12 unused slots.
Why just not return all 12 and be done with it already.
LGB will still be under pressure to reallocate the remaining 2 unused slots.
WN already using 9 temporary slots until July 31 2019.
So I imagine new permanent slots will be awarded for a August 1 2019 activation.

Now the question is will DL or HA take the availability?

Last round DL and HA passed.
Will WN get the 9 to keep current schedule in place.

Flyguy

why make life easier for WN? Assuming 1 of the 10 slots goes to DL/HA and WN keeps their schedule, B6 runs their current schedule, everyone gets what they want. The only additional route that B6 faces more competition is SJC. They might move drop LGB-SJC in the future and move those 1 flight to another airport and run a schedule of 20 to 21 flights a day, which should meet the 85% usage threshold for 24 slots. As long as B6 can break even or make small profit on Q2 to Q4, they are not in a hurry to leave. I can't see LAX being any easier for profitability. We will have to wait at least a year I think for B6 management to decide whether this schedule works or not.

strfyr51 wrote:
Are those reasons or Excuses? If they intend to REALLY operate possible Transatlantic routes? Then they'll need to get in and Compete where the competition IS!
At the major west coast hubs. They need to actually BE where passengers arriving can get TO them. And to where business is DONE. They can't hide..
They're the size of AS and if AS is in the "Rough and Tumble"? Then JBLU has to put on their
'Big Boy Pants" and Wade in as well. They do NOT have to fly coastal So-CAL to Northern CA or north to PDX and SEA . But there's no reason to NOT be flying from the "western strongholds" to their "Crown Jewel" at JFK, That's a premier Gateway!! They have an advantage that some other carriers do NOT have. (including United..) If they're going to play in the "Big Leagues"? Then they cannot Be Timid.. Get in there where the action is with a plan and Do IT!! Or? Admit they're a second tier carrier and get out of the way. I'd bet? They do NOT want to play AAA Ball, but in the Majors...

Neither? They intend to operate TATL routes in the future because it makes sense for them. They strength is on the east coast and to Latin America. There is simply no reason for them to get involved in the intra-west coast bloodbath.

also, they fly from JFK to more west coast cities than any other airlines. They have more flights to LA basin (up to 16 a day) and northern cali (9 a day) from JFK than any other airline. In fact, I would say they fly to too many low yielding places like OAK/RNO.

ScottB wrote:
B6 actually has been squatting on LGB slots for years. It was strategically brilliant for WN to enter LGB when the supplemental slots became available; that finally forced B6 to either lose money operating flights for most/all of their slots or give the slots back.

Honestly, if B6 exited LGB it's extremely unlikely that all their slots would be taken up. I think the other carriers would stay and WN might add a frequency or two to SJC/OAK/SMF/LAS as well as the obvious connection to PHX. But there certainly wouldn't be demand for 24 more slots. I suppose one could call WN staying in LGB "squatting" since it's a deterrent to anyone else starting another short-haul operation at LGB but they're actually offering service and presumably going to price flights to adequately fill the planes. Are they "squatting" at BUR with 70+ daily flights? There's nowhere near enough space at BUR for anyone to build an effective competitive presence.

I don't think Long Beach has been trying to push JetBlue out. I think they want JetBlue to be a better neighbor (i.e. don't bust the curfew 400+ times a year and don't squat on slots you have no intention of using). B6 announced its reduction in operations at LGB over 11 months ago but they're only now returning slots after the City threatened to take them away. That's not being a good neighbor or business partner.


They were under no obligation previously to return the slots. LGB made those slots available on temporary basis for WN, so no loss of flights. They changed the rules to 85% usage and now B6 has returned the slots, I don't see the problem here. After B6 feel they were mislead by LB city council on the entire FIS issue, they no longer feel compelled to be a better neighbour.

WN has now been in LGB for 2 years and their performance on some of these routes really have not improved much. Their big west coast rival AS has not even made any effort to service LGB. if this continues for 2 more years and B6 is happy to live with a 20 flight schedule, what does WN do at that point? It's one thing to loose money at LAX on shorthaul stuff and quite another thing to loose money at LGB.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:50 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
I wonder if DL would try LGB-LAS with an additional slot? They have developed a decently-size LAS-California P2P operation over the last few years (LAX, SAN, SNA and SJC).

Not a chance. They don't make money with SNA/SJC/SAN-LAS and LGB-LAS is a worse market.

strfyr51 wrote:
If JBLU is stepping up to the other Majors? Then why are they hiding in LGB? If they're going to compete? Then Compete! Go into LAX , ONT, SNA, BUR,SAN.
There are plenty of services they can offer in SoCal. But LGB? Is a "hiding place" !

They can't get enough space at LAX. They don't want any part of that battle at SAN between WN/AS. SNA is slot restricted and they don't have an aircraft that can operate to east coast yet, but A220 will change that. SNA will be limited for them though. BUR is dominated by WN and they will have a hard time competing with what WN has on the shorthaul route.

At this point, they could sink in a bunch of money and commit their best new planes A321NEO and A220 for the intra-west coast bloodbath or they could continue strengthen BOS/FLL. The choice is pretty clear here. This is not 2016 anymore when they were getting great margins at BOS and can afford to take chances elsewhere.

wnflyguy wrote:
HA is beyond happy with the response and results for LGB-HNL.
HA told LGB it would like to add another daily flight to operate 5 days a week on Sunday,Monday,Thursday ,Friday for LGB-OGG and 2 days a week Wednesday,Saturday for LGB-KOA.
But not on a temporary basis as WN is currently doing with LAS and SJC. It would definitely add a additional flight if they were permanent slots.
The Void left by Aloha then United for the SNA-Hawaii market place is being well received in LGB.

Flyguy

I mean it's a decent route, but we will have to see if it will improve to be comparable to LAX performance level. $312 avg fare with 79% LF in Q4. As a comparison, LAX-HNL is about the same avg fare but 90+% LF.



Are those reasons or Excuses? If they intend to REALLY operate possible Transatlantic routes? Then they'll need to get in and Compete where the competition IS!
At the major west coast hubs. They need to actually BE where passengers arriving can get TO them. And to where business is DONE. They can't hide..
They're the size of AS and if AS is in the "Rough and Tumble"? Then JBLU has to put on their
'Big Boy Pants" and Wade in as well. They do NOT have to fly coastal So-CAL to Northern CA or north to PDX and SEA . But there's no reason to NOT be flying from the "western strongholds" to their "Crown Jewel" at JFK, That's a premier Gateway!! They have an advantage that some other carriers do NOT have. (including United..) If they're going to play in the "Big Leagues"? Then they cannot Be Timid.. Get in there where the action is with a plan and Do IT!! Or? Admit they're a second tier carrier and get out of the way. I'd bet? They do NOT want to play AAA Ball, but in the Majors...

I think the point is they already are competing vigorously with DL in BOS and WN/NK in FLL plus all the usual competition at JFK/NYC. They don't need another fight right now, especially one that would be a money loser.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:13 pm

I’m curious if Delta is interested in SEA-LGB to supplement SLC-LGB. DL has five SEA-SEA flights per day.
 
carljanderson
Posts: 148
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:40 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I hope DL connects ATL with frequency.

Lightsaber


I am hoping for 3x ATL on an A319, but that's all it is.. hope.. and would it be temporary until T2/3 at LAX are done?
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:07 pm

Good outcome.

B6 realized it could no longer play the shuffle game and slot squat.

Airport gets to permanently reassign vacated to slots to other airlines more serious about utilizing them.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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UPlog
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:05 pm

Good.

Give others opportunity to utilize slots.

JetBlue also on notice it must operate within airport guidelines or risk more slots.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:10 pm

Frontier seems like a good candidate to make Long Beach Work. Granted they would want a deal. They only have a minor operation at SNA, which could be closed.

The issue for most airlines is Long Beach is wedged between larger operations at SNA and LAX. It's hard to have an airport wedged in the middle undercutting your existing larger operations.
 
MDGLongBeach
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Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:31 pm

Ok i'm very curious to see what's going to happen here. LGB resident here. With this unsurprising move from B6 dropping more of it's slots, i'd be happy to see more diversity within the route network. I'm definitely hoping for more east coast flights even though that's going to be very unrealistic I suppose? I like what people are saying about WN ramping up current routes, HAL possibly adding another hawaiian destination and DAL possibly ramping up SLC or possibly adding SEA or ATL. I want to be imaginitve but still realistic. I'd like to see another new face at LGB, especially with the rapidly growing market here. I think it may be a good opportunity for a LCC to try it out again. AAY and FNT were here once but for a short while. Though, times have changed and I think that there are definetly routes, especially to central US and eastern US that have a gap in service here. What do you guys think about a new face at LGB? or do you think we will just see a ramp up in flights from current operators?
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 108
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:35 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Frontier seems like a good candidate to make Long Beach Work. Granted they would want a deal. They only have a minor operation at SNA, which could be closed.

The issue for most airlines is Long Beach is wedged between larger operations at SNA and LAX. It's hard to have an airport wedged in the middle undercutting your existing larger operations.


I really like the idea of Frontier coming back to taste the LGB market again. We have to remember that FNT has serviced LGB in the past to DEN and failed. Which makes us have to step back and think whether airlines will come back for another taste of the market. I feel as if Frontier could do well servicing LGB to a central or eastern destination within the US. I do have a slight feeling though Frontier won't be as interested in coming back as some airline like AAY. AAY has also serviced LGB before, but they're known for their flights to smaller airports like LGB and iirc they actually did ok here too. I don't exactly remember why they left... I would like to ask though, where do you think FNT could successfully fly to and still serve a unfulfilled market? - MDG
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 108
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:43 pm

tphuang wrote:
WN has now been in LGB for 2 years and their performance on some of these routes really have not improved much. Their big west coast rival AS has not even made any effort to service LGB. if this continues for 2 more years and B6 is happy to live with a 20 flight schedule, what does WN do at that point? It's one thing to loose money at LAX on shorthaul stuff and quite another thing to loose money at LGB.


what do you mean? AS served LGB to PDX and then SEA for years and left in 2015 after they didn't get anything out of it.
 
nine4nine
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:50 pm

MDGLongBeach wrote:
tphuang wrote:
WN has now been in LGB for 2 years and their performance on some of these routes really have not improved much. Their big west coast rival AS has not even made any effort to service LGB. if this continues for 2 more years and B6 is happy to live with a 20 flight schedule, what does WN do at that point? It's one thing to loose money at LAX on shorthaul stuff and quite another thing to loose money at LGB.


what do you mean? AS served LGB to PDX and then SEA for years and left in 2015 after they didn't get anything out of it.



Which I believe was the 3rd attempt for AS to make LGB work.
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winginit
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:57 pm

carljanderson wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I hope DL connects ATL with frequency.

Lightsaber


I am hoping for 3x ATL on an A319, but that's all it is.. hope..


DL has been aggressive with their LA Basin strategy between ATL-BUR, ATL-ONT, and the short-lived SNA-JFK that was squashed on account of the lost slot. That's a notable shift, and I think an additional product of that could be either ATL-LGB or JFK-LGB.

carljanderson wrote:
and would it be temporary until T2/3 at LAX are done?


Even if it was, they'd never say as much. To do so would be openly acknowledging that LAX is going to be so bad with the construction that people should book away, which, even if true, will never be messaged outright in the form of temporary alternate flying.
 
ScottB
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
They were under no obligation previously to return the slots. LGB made those slots available on temporary basis for WN, so no loss of flights. They changed the rules to 85% usage and now B6 has returned the slots, I don't see the problem here. After B6 feel they were mislead by LB city council on the entire FIS issue, they no longer feel compelled to be a better neighbour.


And yet they certainly kvetched enough about the possibility of being forced to return unused slots.

To some degree, the City of Long Beach had no choice but to become more strict about slot usage. The 2001 agreement which extended the use-it-or-lose it term on newly-awarded slots to 24 months (to encourage B6 to set up its focus city) was considered by FAA as likely to be unreasonable under federal grant assurances of airport access. With a list of carriers waiting for additional slots, they had to move to shake loose unused/underutilized slots.

I'm not privy to the discussions between B6 and LB city management, but it seems like LB made a good faith effort to evaluate the proposal. I think B6 management seriously miscalculated the level of opposition to anything which might appear to be airport expansion and that was a mistake given the history of local sensitivity to noise/traffic generated by airport operations.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:48 pm

I don't see F9 back at LGB for the same reason G4 did not work out. Their dynamic and seasonal schedules don't bode well with the ability to operate and maintain consistent slot usage.
Even at SNA, F9 has had to halve their slot holdings once they move away from solely a DEN hub focus as the new operation model did not play well with keeping slots busy year-round.
(also for info, last time F9 only lasted 11-months at LGB)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 108
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:56 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
LAXintl wrote:
I don't see F9 back at LGB for the same reason G4 did not work out. Their dynamic and seasonal schedules don't bode well with the ability to operate and maintain consistent slot usage.
Even at SNA, F9 has had to halve their slot holdings once they move away from solely a DEN hub focus as the new operation model did not play well with keeping slots busy year-round.
(also for info, last time F9 only lasted 11-months at LGB)

How do you feel about AAL to DFW then since they just started DFW service from San Luis Obispo and Monterey?
 
rbavfan
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:10 pm

Super80Fan wrote:
The slot violations is valid and Long Beach has every right to go after them.

The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


Technicall based on the FAA having control over the airports LGB's & SNA's slot limits via the City votes are not legal either. But curfew violations are not 'unconstitutional" just most likely illegal.
 
B747forever
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:17 pm

MDGLongBeach wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
LAXintl wrote:
I don't see F9 back at LGB for the same reason G4 did not work out. Their dynamic and seasonal schedules don't bode well with the ability to operate and maintain consistent slot usage.
Even at SNA, F9 has had to halve their slot holdings once they move away from solely a DEN hub focus as the new operation model did not play well with keeping slots busy year-round.
(also for info, last time F9 only lasted 11-months at LGB)

How do you feel about AAL to DFW then since they just started DFW service from San Luis Obispo and Monterey?


They also recently added back DFW-BUR service, so I doubt they will be so quick to add another DFW-LA basin airport.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1678
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:29 pm

B747forever wrote:
MDGLongBeach wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
LAXintl wrote:
I don't see F9 back at LGB for the same reason G4 did not work out. Their dynamic and seasonal schedules don't bode well with the ability to operate and maintain consistent slot usage.
Even at SNA, F9 has had to halve their slot holdings once they move away from solely a DEN hub focus as the new operation model did not play well with keeping slots busy year-round.
(also for info, last time F9 only lasted 11-months at LGB)

How do you feel about AAL to DFW then since they just started DFW service from San Luis Obispo and Monterey?


They also recently added back DFW-BUR service, so I doubt they will be so quick to add another DFW-LA basin airport.


AA already gave back 2 slots last year. Nobody wanted them and WN was able to get them to add SMF service.
AA is not even on the revised waiting list for additional slots.
3 a Day to PHX is all they want.

Flyguy
Last edited by wnflyguy on Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
klakzky123
Posts: 663
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:37 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
The slot violations is valid and Long Beach has every right to go after them.

The curfew violations are ridiculous and unconstitutional. Shame on big government for restricting free commerce.


Technicall based on the FAA having control over the airports LGB's & SNA's slot limits via the City votes are not legal either. But curfew violations are not 'unconstitutional" just most likely illegal.


Correct, the Burbank curfew wasn't struck down on constitutional grounds. It was struck down because the court stated that federal laws and regulations pre-empted the city of Burbank's ability to institute a curfew (or regulate noise for that matter).

The ruling was specific to noise regulation. It didn't rule out municipal regulations on airports for other reasons. And it wasn't a constitutional question. It was based on the principle of pre-emption which is different from claiming that the constitution itself prohibits curfews.
 
tphuang
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:43 pm

Well JetBlue confirmed it in their all hands meeting that LGB is showing improvements and getting back to profitability. Matches what I saw in my model and mentioned in this thread.
 
MDW22L31C
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:52 pm

I don't get Jet Blue at LGB. I think people forgot there is schedule service to the bay area, Vegas, the Pacific northwest from LGB. Every time I tell people did look at Long Beach to fly out to the bay area or Vegas, they say oh there flights out of LGB. JetBlue need to do some advertising on some billboard ads on the LA-South Bay and Northern Orange Co, even up the 605 in Whitter, City of industry area. With all Electronic billboard on the freeways in these areas they could fill A320’s easily.
 
MDW22L31C
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:03 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:24 pm

MDW22L31C wrote:
I don't get Jet Blue at LGB. I think people forgot there is schedule service to the bay area, Vegas, the Pacific northwest from LGB. every time I tell people did you look at Long Beach to fly out to the bay area or Vegas, they say oh there flights out of LGB. JetBlue needs to do some advertising on some billboard ads in the LA-South Bay and Northern Orange Co, even up the 605 in Whitter, City of industry area. With all the Electronic billboard on the freeways in these areas they could fill A320’s easily.
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 108
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:30 pm

MDW22L31C wrote:
MDW22L31C wrote:
I don't get Jet Blue at LGB. I think people forgot there is schedule service to the bay area, Vegas, the Pacific northwest from LGB. every time I tell people did you look at Long Beach to fly out to the bay area or Vegas, they say oh there flights out of LGB. JetBlue needs to do some advertising on some billboard ads in the LA-South Bay and Northern Orange Co, even up the 605 in Whitter, City of industry area. With all the Electronic billboard on the freeways in these areas they could fill A320’s easily.

It's not just about putting billboards up on freeways, LGB is in an area of extreme competition. They have to compete with SWA and DAL at LGB itself while also having to compete against LAX, ONT, SNA, BUR etc. LGB does not have the best route variety either, so many people prefer to go to LAX or SNA to go on flights that are not west-coast bound. Plus, B6 isn't doing as bad as some paint it out to be doing, it has profit margins and is doing okay.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:13 pm

I for one can't wait to see Cranky Flier's opinion on this development. As a Long Beach resident and dedicated av-geek, he may have some insight into this that we just speculate.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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janders
Moderator
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:19 am

Some news about of the reallocation process will work:


In a statement issued Wednesday evening, City Manager Pat West said that Hawaiian Airlines, Southwest Airlines and Delta Airlines had all expressed interest in the open slots. He said the slots will be awarded in rounds where each airline will have an opportunity to claim one slot per round.

The sequence for the selection of the seven permanent slots has Hawaiian picking first and Southwest last, and the sequence for the three supplemental slots has Delta picking first and Hawaiian picking last. Airlines will have the option not to select slots so it’s unclear how the seven permanent slots and remaining supplemental slots will be allocated.

In a statement, Adam DeCaire, Vice President of Network Planning at Southwest, said the airline is working with the city to acquire more slots. “Our customers instantly embraced our service from day one and we’ve worked since then, through a semi-regular process, to utilize unused slots to offer additional flights and meet a demand we know exists for more service at Long Beach from California’s largest and most preferred air carrier,” he said.

Airlines with smaller footprints at Long Beach could also be beneficiaries. Delta’s main hub is in Atlanta with American’s being in Dallas. A spokesperson for Delta said that the airline continues to “be interested in acquiring additional slots at Long Beach Airport” but wouldn’t comment further.


https://lbpost.com/news/jetblue-fewer-f ... n-airport/
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
MDGLongBeach
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:58 am

janders wrote:
Some news about of the reallocation process will work:


In a statement issued Wednesday evening, City Manager Pat West said that Hawaiian Airlines, Southwest Airlines and Delta Airlines had all expressed interest in the open slots. He said the slots will be awarded in rounds where each airline will have an opportunity to claim one slot per round.

The sequence for the selection of the seven permanent slots has Hawaiian picking first and Southwest last, and the sequence for the three supplemental slots has Delta picking first and Hawaiian picking last. Airlines will have the option not to select slots so it’s unclear how the seven permanent slots and remaining supplemental slots will be allocated.

In a statement, Adam DeCaire, Vice President of Network Planning at Southwest, said the airline is working with the city to acquire more slots. “Our customers instantly embraced our service from day one and we’ve worked since then, through a semi-regular process, to utilize unused slots to offer additional flights and meet a demand we know exists for more service at Long Beach from California’s largest and most preferred air carrier,” he said.

Airlines with smaller footprints at Long Beach could also be beneficiaries. Delta’s main hub is in Atlanta with American’s being in Dallas. A spokesperson for Delta said that the airline continues to “be interested in acquiring additional slots at Long Beach Airport” but wouldn’t comment further.


exciting, we shall see, I like that ATL and DFW are mentioned in this, we need more central and east coast flights... though no mention of outside interest (other airlines not already serving LGB), so this'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

https://lbpost.com/news/jetblue-fewer-f ... n-airport/
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:16 am

While I understand B6’s reluctance to give up the slots just in case they’ll need them at some point in the future, at the same time it doesn’t make sense to continue to irritate airport management at LGB either.
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dtremit
Posts: 86
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Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:08 pm

nine4nine wrote:
But it’s been a bad marriage after the honeymoon phase and probably about time to break up and move on and split the assets between other regional airports in So-Cal.


It sounds like JetBlue is doing just that. At their press event on Wednesday, they listed their five focus cities as JFK, BOS, FLL, MCO, and "LA Basin"

https://twitter.com/WandrMe/status/1116074377106403329
 
many321
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:15 am

Re: LGB seeks to crack down on JetBlue slot usage

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:31 pm

dtremit wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
But it’s been a bad marriage after the honeymoon phase and probably about time to break up and move on and split the assets between other regional airports in So-Cal.


It sounds like JetBlue is doing just that. At their press event on Wednesday, they listed their five focus cities as JFK, BOS, FLL, MCO, and "LA Basin"

https://twitter.com/WandrMe/status/1116074377106403329


Talk about dissing LGB :rotfl: It's going to be interesting to see B6's next move in the LA area.

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