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FlyRow
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KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:29 pm

A 4-weekly tag on to the San Jose flight will expand KLM's presence in Costa Rica by continuing to LIR (Guanacaste Liberia, Costa Rica).
Surprised that they can find the market, but maybe it's a easy way to add revenue to the San Jose flight.

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DALCE
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:51 pm

Apparently they can't fill the seats against proper revenue to SJO.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Geoff1947
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:56 pm

Two markets for one flight, LIR gives access to the beach resorts.

Geoff
 
76er
Posts: 613
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:59 pm

That’s not it.
I think the SJO-AMS flight has had to make too many fuel stops ex SJO since the nonstop flights began. These triangle flights should be more reliable with better engine out takeoff performance ex LIR. Same reason KL does not fly BOG-AMS nonstop.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2065
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:01 pm

76er wrote:
That’s not it.
I think the SJO-AMS flight has had to make too many fuel stops ex SJO since the nonstop flights began. These triangle flights should be more reliable with better engine out takeoff performance ex LIR. Same reason KL does not fly BOG-AMS nonstop.

Yes, that seems a lot more logical and credible.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:08 pm

Really? They're struggling with a 5,600 sm flight from an airport with an elevation of 3,000 ft? SJO will be warm and humid but not HOT. Average high for the hottest month of the year is 80F, and the record high is only 92F.

LIR has proximity to some high-end resorts, and it's a 3+ hour drive to SJO.
 
A388
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:10 pm

Surprising move, I didn't see this coming but from a fuelstop point of view it makes more sense for them.

A388
 
Redwood839
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm

76er wrote:
That’s not it.
I think the SJO-AMS flight has had to make too many fuel stops ex SJO since the nonstop flights began. These triangle flights should be more reliable with better engine out takeoff performance ex LIR. Same reason KL does not fly BOG-AMS nonstop.


Yep, in the last month it has stopped in Curacao 8 different times.

Would be awesome if locals could book the SJO-LIR tag on. Flying a 789 on a 20 minute flight would be awesome
 
ScottB
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:24 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Really? They're struggling with a 5,600 sm flight from an airport with an elevation of 3,000 ft? SJO will be warm and humid but not HOT. Average high for the hottest month of the year is 80F, and the record high is only 92F.


IIRC the issue is terrain clearance when departing runway 07 in the event of losing an engine as there are a couple of 9000'+ volcanoes within 15 miles of the airport.
 
factsonly
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:20 pm

DALCE wrote:
Apparently they can't fill the seats against proper revenue to SJO.


A not entirely unexpected 'tongue in cheek' LH Group response :stirthepot:

Considering that KLM will increase frequency from 3x weekly AMS-SJO-AMS to 4x weekly AMS-SJO-LIR-AMS, your point that KLM can't fill seats is unlikely to be the case.
They are adding capacity and opening a new market.

LIR is a Winter sun hot spot for North Americans with service from a.o.:

- Air Canada Rouge - YYZ
- WestJet - YYZ, YYC
- Eastern Airlines - YYZ
- Sunwing - YYZ, YHM, YUL
- American - MIA, DFW
- Delta - ATL
- United IAH & EWR
- Jet Blue - JFK
- Southwest - IAH
- Alaska - LAX
- SunCountry - MSP

So KLM adding the second European LIR connection (after TUI - LGW) is in line with its relatively strong history in Central America.
Offering four weekly service from the start, shows faith in both the commercial potential, while providing operational improvements at the same time (No unscheduled CUR stop required).

Question is will STAR Alliance offer service from Europe? :white:
 
MalevTU134
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:40 pm

ScottB wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Really? They're struggling with a 5,600 sm flight from an airport with an elevation of 3,000 ft? SJO will be warm and humid but not HOT. Average high for the hottest month of the year is 80F, and the record high is only 92F.


IIRC the issue is terrain clearance when departing runway 07 in the event of losing an engine as there are a couple of 9000'+ volcanoes within 15 miles of the airport.

Exactly. SXM has a similar restriction, being at sea level.
 
AirbusOnly
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:00 pm

I guess same with KL 755 Amsterdam-Quito-Guayaquil-Amsterdam. They Need Guayaquil I guess only for coming back nonstop to Europe as Quito‘s runway is too short for a heavy 777.
 
76er
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:07 pm

The runway at UIO is 4098m long, the problem is the surrounding terrain in combination with the one engine inop climb performance at 7900ft MSL.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:25 pm

AirbusOnly wrote:
I guess same with KL 755 Amsterdam-Quito-Guayaquil-Amsterdam. They Need Guayaquil I guess only for coming back nonstop to Europe as Quito‘s runway is too short for a heavy 777.

Guayaquil is Ecuador's biggest city, harbour and commercially most important city. Not just a fuel stop at all...
 
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AcevedoPowers
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KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:58 pm

http://www.ticotimes.net/2019/04/09/klm ... in-october


KLM is beginning service to Liberia, Costa Rica starting on October 29, 2019. The route will be served on a 4x weekley basis operating on Tuesdays, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays using a Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner aircraft. The outbound flight will run from AMS-SJO-LIR with then return flight running non-stop from LIR-AMS.
 
jbmitt
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:45 pm

factsonly wrote:
DALCE wrote:
Apparently they can't fill the seats against proper revenue to SJO.


A not entirely unexpected 'tongue in cheek' LH Group response :stirthepot:

Considering that KLM will increase frequency from 3x weekly AMS-SJO-AMS to 4x weekly AMS-SJO-LIR-AMS, your point that KLM can't fill seats is unlikely to be the case.
They are adding capacity and opening a new market.

LIR is a Winter sun hot spot for North Americans with service from a.o.:

- Air Canada Rouge - YYZ
- WestJet - YYZ, YYC
- Eastern Airlines - YYZ
- Sunwing - YYZ, YHM, YUL
- American - MIA, DFW
- Delta - ATL
- United IAH & EWR
- Jet Blue - JFK
- Southwest - IAH
- Alaska - LAX
- SunCountry - MSP

So KLM adding the second European LIR connection (after TUI - LGW) is in line with its relatively strong history in Central America.
Offering four weekly service from the start, shows faith in both the commercial potential, while providing operational improvements at the same time (No unscheduled CUR stop required).

Question is will STAR Alliance offer service from Europe? :white:


United was flying double daily from DEN for a period this winter. The second flight was a redeye. The terminal area is pretty nice, but during peak hours all of the gates are used up, space on the apron is limited, and aircraft are holding to unload.
 
chicawgo
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:01 pm

factsonly wrote:
DALCE wrote:
Apparently they can't fill the seats against proper revenue to SJO.


A not entirely unexpected 'tongue in cheek' LH Group response :stirthepot:

Considering that KLM will increase frequency from 3x weekly AMS-SJO-AMS to 4x weekly AMS-SJO-LIR-AMS, your point that KLM can't fill seats is unlikely to be the case.
They are adding capacity and opening a new market.

LIR is a Winter sun hot spot for North Americans with service from a.o.:

- Air Canada Rouge - YYZ
- WestJet - YYZ, YYC
- Eastern Airlines - YYZ
- Sunwing - YYZ, YHM, YUL
- American - MIA, DFW
- Delta - ATL
- United IAH & EWR
- Jet Blue - JFK
- Southwest - IAH
- Alaska - LAX
- SunCountry - MSP

So KLM adding the second European LIR connection (after TUI - LGW) is in line with its relatively strong history in Central America.
Offering four weekly service from the start, shows faith in both the commercial potential, while providing operational improvements at the same time (No unscheduled CUR stop required).

Question is will STAR Alliance offer service from Europe? :white:


Forgot ORD on UA
 
Busyboy2
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:57 am

Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:57 pm

factsonly wrote:
DALCE wrote:
Apparently they can't fill the seats against proper revenue to SJO.


A not entirely unexpected 'tongue in cheek' LH Group response :stirthepot:

Considering that KLM will increase frequency from 3x weekly AMS-SJO-AMS to 4x weekly AMS-SJO-LIR-AMS, your point that KLM can't fill seats is unlikely to be the case.
They are adding capacity and opening a new market.

LIR is a Winter sun hot spot for North Americans with service from a.o.:

- Air Canada Rouge - YYZ
- WestJet - YYZ, YYC
- Eastern Airlines - YYZ
- Sunwing - YYZ, YHM, YUL
- American - MIA, DFW
- Delta - ATL
- United IAH & EWR
- Jet Blue - JFK
- Southwest - IAH
- Alaska - LAX
- SunCountry - MSP

So KLM adding the second European LIR connection (after TUI - LGW) is in line with its relatively strong history in Central America.
Offering four weekly service from the start, shows faith in both the commercial potential, while providing operational improvements at the same time (No unscheduled CUR stop required).

Question is will STAR Alliance offer service from Europe? :white:



Small correction. WN does not serve IAH. WN goes to LIR from HOU and BWI.
 
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LTU932
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LIR has proximity to some high-end resorts, and it's a 3+ hour drive to SJO.
More like 5 hrs considering the traffic on the Interamericana Norte.
ScottB wrote:
IIRC the issue is terrain clearance when departing runway 07 in the event of losing an engine as there are a couple of 9000'+ volcanoes within 15 miles of the airport.
SJO is 3021 ft high, the 787-9 has enough legs to make the distance nonstop. Plus I have no heard anything about other airlines that operate twins have to do constant fuel stops on their nonstops (IB operates the A332 during the summer schedule, AF the 77E and 77W depending on schedule, BA the 77E).

This issue with terrain, while I can understand the concerns, seems a bit overblown IMO (but I'm not a dispatcher, I may be wrong) since aircraft usually make a right turn (pretty much a U turn) after like 2-3 nm when departing RW 07 (I see them all the time from my window here near SYQ). If in doubt, then depart RW 25 if the conditions permit it, as its far more clear of volcanos than RW 07.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:03 am

LTU932 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
This issue with terrain, while I can understand the concerns, seems a bit overblown IMO (but I'm not a dispatcher, I may be wrong) since aircraft usually make a right turn (pretty much a U turn) after like 2-3 nm when departing RW 07 (I see them all the time from my window here near SYQ). If in doubt, then depart RW 25 if the conditions permit it, as its far more clear of volcanos than RW 07.


Problem is indeed terrain. On 07, the 787 does not have the engine out performance to clear the mountains.
Takeoffs are performed on 25 up to max. tailwind, however if the max. tailwind is exceeded (and that happened too often this past season). the flight got routed via PTY or CUR.
This means the route can not reliably fly SJO-AMS, which impacts operations.

Hence the choice to plan an extra stop at LIR.
Licensed 777/787 driver
 
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LTU932
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:49 am

PHBVF wrote:
Problem is indeed terrain. On 07, the 787 does not have the engine out performance to clear the mountains.
I know that once, on a one-off, KL sent the 77W to SJO, plus AF sends 77Es during the summer and 77W during the winter. How would the 77E/77W compare to the 787-9 in terms of engine-out performance here in SJO? I'm not mentioning BA because they use RR powered 777Es and AF-KL use the GE90.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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PHBVF
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:57 pm

LTU932 wrote:
I know that once, on a one-off, KL sent the 77W to SJO, plus AF sends 77Es during the summer and 77W during the winter. How would the 77E/77W compare to the 787-9 in terms of engine-out performance here in SJO? I'm not mentioning BA because they use RR powered 777Es and AF-KL use the GE90.

The differences aren't that big. Within half a percent climb gradient...
Having said that, in standard atmosphere at sea level (!) a 77W would need to leave behind about 40 tonnes of payload to make a climb gradient of 5% (engine out that is).

http://vatca.net/files/MROC.pdf
The least restrictive SID at SJO runway 07 is about 5%, so you see the problem there...
Licensed 777/787 driver
 
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lugie
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Re: KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:16 pm

I found the block time quite amusing, KLM is scheduling the SJO-LIR leg at almost an hour - depending on the wind direction the actual flown distance will likely be under 200km / 120mi.
Should be one of the shortest flights, if not the shortest, for the 787 worldwide and probably a really fun one. Shame only that it's most likely going to be in darkness most days.
DH4 E75 E90 CR9 CRK M88 319 320 321 332 333 359 733 73G 738 739 748 764 772 788
X3 LH 4U TP US SN EI FR IB LX LA CM UA DL AA AS WN
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW SJO PTY
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:42 pm

Amsterdam - Brussels (98 miles) is scheduled at 45 min, Amsterdam - Dusseldorf (111 miles) at 50 min. Also amusing maybe, but completely normal for airlines.
 
Joost
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Re: KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:22 am

lugie wrote:
I found the block time quite amusing, KLM is scheduling the SJO-LIR leg at almost an hour - depending on the wind direction the actual flown distance will likely be under 200km / 120mi.
Should be one of the shortest flights, if not the shortest, for the 787 worldwide and probably a really fun one. Shame only that it's most likely going to be in darkness most days.


Also a triangle flight from Amsterdam, the BON-CUR sector on Arkefly AMS-BON-CUR-AMS on 787-8 is shorter (41nm great circle) than SJO-LIR (87nm) and sometimes as short as 16 minutes:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/or366

A few years ago, ET flew ADD-FIH-BZV-ADD, 14nm great circle, but it looks like this route is no longer flown.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:09 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Amsterdam - Brussels (98 miles) is scheduled at 45 min, Amsterdam - Dusseldorf (111 miles) at 50 min. Also amusing maybe, but completely normal for airlines.

Great point because these are flown by a 787?
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
MartijnNL
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Re: KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:43 pm

These are flown with Embraer 175/190 and Boeing 737.

I don't get what's amusing about a one hour block time for a 100 mile flight. I thought it is normal for airlines to publish flight schedules that don't actually match real flight times. I posted these two routes as example.
 
detroitbadboy
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Re: KLM Starting AMS-SJO-LIR Service in October 2019

Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:19 pm

I think that DL or NK should start DTW-LIR as DTW is a bigger city than MSP and DEN which both already have service. Daily on an A321 seems like a good way to start for either airline.
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:37 am

Redwood839 wrote:
Would be awesome if locals could book the SJO-LIR tag on.

We couldn’t.
Even TACA REGIONAL tried unsuccessfully on launching SJO-LIR with the 50-seater ATR-42.
Lack of demand. Locals rarely fly SJO-LIR.
This sector is attended by SANSA with Cessna Grand Caravans and these routes usually continue to other regional airfields in Guanacaste province.

Regards
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
BA777FO
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:41 am

PHBVF wrote:
LTU932 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
This issue with terrain, while I can understand the concerns, seems a bit overblown IMO (but I'm not a dispatcher, I may be wrong) since aircraft usually make a right turn (pretty much a U turn) after like 2-3 nm when departing RW 07 (I see them all the time from my window here near SYQ). If in doubt, then depart RW 25 if the conditions permit it, as its far more clear of volcanos than RW 07.


Problem is indeed terrain. On 07, the 787 does not have the engine out performance to clear the mountains.
Takeoffs are performed on 25 up to max. tailwind, however if the max. tailwind is exceeded (and that happened too often this past season). the flight got routed via PTY or CUR.
This means the route can not reliably fly SJO-AMS, which impacts operations.

Hence the choice to plan an extra stop at LIR.


This is absolutely correct. During the dry season (northern hemisphere winter) we can usually depart from runway 25 99% of the time. It allows a TOPL of essentially full passenger load and 10+ tonnes of cargo on the RR 777. However, during the wet season, or when tailwind on 25 exceeds 15 knots, runway 07 reduces the TOPL by 5-6 tonnes. That means offloading a lot of cargo or a lot of passengers or both. Max tailwind off of 25 is always 5 tonnes or so better than a 20 knot headwind off of runway 07.

The engine out performance is critical. 07 is a Captain's only departure for us, FOs are permitted to take off runway 25. Having seen the EFATO at V1 from runway 07 at max TOPL it's unpleasant, you go around the right turn only a few hundred feet above the terrain with EGPWS cautions the whole way around. Landing on 25 is also rather interesting!

The delay to blocktimes is often a result of ramp congestion, as space for widebodies is really limited and departure from runway 25 requires a backtrack. The 737s and A320s can generally depart 07 without too much of a hit but fitting widebodies departing 25 with arrivals onto 07 can take some time.

I imagine the 777 has a better performance than the 787, just a hunch.
 
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LTU932
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Re: KLM launches LIR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:43 pm

BA777FO wrote:
The delay to blocktimes is often a result of ramp congestion, as space for widebodies is really limited and departure from runway 25 requires a backtrack.
The airport itself was never built with widebodies in mind, and the lack of planing by the central government or lack of foresight didn't help them either. The ongoing rebuilding of the terminals and the additions of the widebody gates can only do so much. Let us also not forget that for departing RW 07, the big widebodies have to backtrack RW 07 due to wingspan limitations in the ramp area, until they get to a part of the taxiway that has no problems with the wingspan (I believe near the entry into the cargo area). Fun fact: 20 years ago, RW 25 did not have a displaced threshold area, so the runway itself, while physically as long as today IIRC (correct me if I am wrong), was certified for a shorter length.

The government was intending to build a new airport with two runways (and possibly A380 certified) in a flat area near Orotina but due to the ongoing financial crisis in the country, that project is on ice. Plus the airport itself is like 60 km away from San José, in the west of Alajuela province, so depending on traffic, you could need 1.5 to 2 hours to make it to San José (at best).
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208

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