jupiter2
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:48 pm

Here is the link to the Aeromexico E175 from a couple of days ago, courtesy of AvHerald

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c697887&opt=0
 
slcguy
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:41 am

They were lucky RW 31L is 200' wide with an additional 80' paved shoulder. The sign is 175' left of centerline near the outer edge of the paved shoulder. Had this been a 150' wide runway with a narrower shoulder it would have been digging the wingtip into the grass which would not have ended well.
 
Richie72
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:42 am

Reading the latest update on Avherald am I correct in assuming that this was very near to being a serious accident and that had the aircraft not left the ground then the aircraft probably would have flipped over (looped)? Must have been very scary for the passengers onboard and i'm sure some will have serious issues in the future with getting on a plane again especially those that already suffer from a fear of flying! Do the passengers have any rights in claiming compensation from AA or should they just be thankful that pilot skills avoided a serious incident and kept everyone safe?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:57 am

Why must every happenstance involve a lawsuit and seeking for money? Is it because we Americans have turned life into a lottery system run by what passes for “justice”?

A fifteen knot crosswind didn’t cause this roll either.
 
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scbriml
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:24 am

Revelation wrote:
Fair use quote:

According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip.


Oy! That takeoff, along with the 45 degree roll reported above, had to be a real butt clencher for the pilots!


Here's the thing I can't get my head round - watching the video linked by impilot, the ATC conversation and initial departure seemed perfectly normal. If the contact was as bad as AVHerald is suggesting (and clearly the damage seen on the wing is not insignificant), how the heck didn't the crew know immediately and declare an emergency? It's almost like it was an afterthought to return.
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slcguy
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:36 am

Richie72 wrote:
Reading the latest update on Avherald am I correct in assuming that this was very near to being a serious accident and that had the aircraft not left the ground then the aircraft probably would have flipped over (looped)? Must have been very scary for the passengers onboard and i'm sure some will have serious issues in the future with getting on a plane again especially those that already suffer from a fear of flying! Do the passengers have any rights in claiming compensation from AA or should they just be thankful that pilot skills avoided a serious incident and kept everyone safe?


Yes I believe this was very close to being tragic accident. Aircraft was well off to the side of the runway barely airborne in a steep left bank with wing tip scraping the ground. As mentioned in previous post, on many other narrower runways at airports including JFK the wing tip would have been in the dirt and grass. Looped is an incorrect mild term here, at 170mph +/-, a wing tip digging into grass/ground would result in a cartwheel.

What bothers me the most is the delay in the pilots deciding to return.
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:35 pm

What does the width of the runway have to do with whether the wing would have dug into the ground or not? Narrow or wide, the plane was airborne enough that the wing didn’t touch the ground, but rather a sign with some height off the ground.

Are you saying the plane wouldn’t have gotten as high with a narrower runway?
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:02 pm

scbriml wrote:
Here's the thing I can't get my head round - watching the video linked by impilot, the ATC conversation and initial departure seemed perfectly normal. If the contact was as bad as AVHerald is suggesting (and clearly the damage seen on the wing is not insignificant), how the heck didn't the crew know immediately and declare an emergency? It's almost like it was an afterthought to return.

I hadn't listened to that video. You are right, it's pretty clear by the fact that the a/c did a normal departure and climb out and was just entering Pennsylvania when it was turned around that the crew must not have understood how bad the damage was.

D L X wrote:
What does the width of the runway have to do with whether the wing would have dug into the ground or not? Narrow or wide, the plane was airborne enough that the wing didn’t touch the ground, but rather a sign with some height off the ground.

Are you saying the plane wouldn’t have gotten as high with a narrower runway?

The situation also isn't very clear to me.

When AvHearald wrote 'ground track' do they mean seeing tracks in the earth or on the runway, or do they mean a digital rendition of the track based on GPS data?

Runway signs aren't very high, for the obvious reason. In theory with a narrow runway and a long wing span the result could have been the sign passing under the wing without making contact.

I've seen a lot of strange things happen involving all the various permutations, since I'm used to landing gliders that intentionally drag their wing tips along the ground at the end of their landing roll, and some times unintentionally strike the ground during takeoff or landing due to various combinations of crosswinds and pilot skill.
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slcguy
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:17 pm

D L X wrote:
What does the width of the runway have to do with whether the wing would have dug into the ground or not? Narrow or wide, the plane was airborne enough that the wing didn’t touch the ground, but rather a sign with some height off the ground.

Are you saying the plane wouldn’t have gotten as high with a narrower runway?


No, that's not what I'm saying, aircraft would have followed same path heading off the runway, bank angle and at same altitude with wing dragging the ground regardless of runway width. Read the report and look at pics,. Wing tip was in contact with the ground for some distance! In this case with the wider runway and shoulder the wing luckily was scraping a paved surface. On a narrower runway and shoulder the wing would have come in contact with the grass/dirt. The distance remaining sign that was hit could be described as an innocent bystander. It's a 60" tall sign 175 feet off runway centerline in this case.

A 321 with sharklets has a wingspan approx. 118 feet, 59' either side of centerline. For the wing to hit a sign 175' from centerline the aircraft would have been at least 116' feet off runway centerline. In a steep bank as well for a wing tip that is normally 12+ feet off the ground to hit a 5' sign!
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:55 pm

Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t read the avherald thing until you noted it. Yikes! It dragged on the ground for some time!

So, do they recover the black boxes for an event like this?
 
bigred10k
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:07 pm

slcguy wrote:
D L X wrote:
What does the width of the runway have to do with whether the wing would have dug into the ground or not? Narrow or wide, the plane was airborne enough that the wing didn’t touch the ground, but rather a sign with some height off the ground.

Are you saying the plane wouldn’t have gotten as high with a narrower runway?


No, that's not what I'm saying, aircraft would have followed same path heading off the runway, bank angle and at same altitude with wing dragging the ground regardless of runway width. Read the report and look at pics,. Wing tip was in contact with the ground for some distance! In this case with the wider runway and shoulder the wing luckily was scraping a paved surface. On a narrower runway and shoulder the wing would have come in contact with the grass/dirt. The distance remaining sign that was hit could be described as an innocent bystander. It's a 60" tall sign 175 feet off runway centerline in this case.

A 321 with sharklets has a wingspan approx. 118 feet, 59' either side of centerline. For the wing to hit a sign 175' from centerline the aircraft would have been at least 116' feet off runway centerline. In a steep bank as well for a wing tip that is normally 12+ feet off the ground to hit a 5' sign!


I'm still not quite following what you are saying. Is the sign on the paved portion of the runway, on the concrete berm, or in the grass/dirt? Was the wing scraping the concrete runway while banking left, and during the course of the bank, it elevated off the ground but not enough to clear the sign? I suppose that could be the reason for the damage in the picture -- to the leading edge of the wing where it scraped the concrete and more towards the center where it hit the sign.

Any way you slice it, it seems that we were a few feet away, or maybe just a few inches away, from a cartwheel and significant loss of life.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:13 pm

slcguy wrote:
No, that's not what I'm saying, aircraft would have followed same path heading off the runway, bank angle and at same altitude with wing dragging the ground regardless of runway width. Read the report and look at pics,. Wing tip was in contact with the ground for some distance! In this case with the wider runway and shoulder the wing luckily was scraping a paved surface. On a narrower runway and shoulder the wing would have come in contact with the grass/dirt. The distance remaining sign that was hit could be described as an innocent bystander. It's a 60" tall sign 175 feet off runway centerline in this case.

A 321 with sharklets has a wingspan approx. 118 feet, 59' either side of centerline. For the wing to hit a sign 175' from centerline the aircraft would have been at least 116' feet off runway centerline. In a steep bank as well for a wing tip that is normally 12+ feet off the ground to hit a 5' sign!

Some questions ( note, I'm not doubting you or anyone else in any way, I'm just confused ):

I haven't seen photos of the ground strike, can some one provide a link to such photos or videos?

Are we saying the strike starts on pavement and extends off pavement to hit the sign?

How far from the edge of the pavement is the sign?
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slcguy
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
slcguy wrote:
No, that's not what I'm saying, aircraft would have followed same path heading off the runway, bank angle and at same altitude with wing dragging the ground regardless of runway width. Read the report and look at pics,. Wing tip was in contact with the ground for some distance! In this case with the wider runway and shoulder the wing luckily was scraping a paved surface. On a narrower runway and shoulder the wing would have come in contact with the grass/dirt. The distance remaining sign that was hit could be described as an innocent bystander. It's a 60" tall sign 175 feet off runway centerline in this case.

A 321 with sharklets has a wingspan approx. 118 feet, 59' either side of centerline. For the wing to hit a sign 175' from centerline the aircraft would have been at least 116' feet off runway centerline. In a steep bank as well for a wing tip that is normally 12+ feet off the ground to hit a 5' sign!

Some questions ( note, I'm not doubting you or anyone else in any way, I'm just confused ):

I haven't seen photos of the ground strike, can some one provide a link to such photos or videos?

Are we saying the strike starts on pavement and extends off pavement to hit the sign?

How far from the edge of the pavement is the sign?


The sign is 75' from the edge of the runway, which is normal In this case RW 31L is concrete 200' wide, 100' either side of centerline. The 100' plus 75' gives you the 175' from runway centerline. RW 31L at JFK also has asphalt shoulders that are 80' wide on either side of the runway, these are not part of the runway nor full strength but do give a paved surface out to 180' from centerline which puts the signs just on the paved surface, At many airports the runways are narrower with narrower shoulders resulting in the distance remaining sign out in the grass.
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:55 pm

I’m also alarmed that they continued flying and climbing out for many minutes before returning to JFK. I have to wonder if they cleared 10k feet and the FAs walked the cabin and found that the passengers were claiming the wing was busted.
 
slcguy
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:23 pm

I'm sorry if I confused people with the distance of the sign and runway width. The point is, 31L is a wide runway with a large paved shoulders. An excursion off the side of the runway with this type of bank on a narrower surface into the grass would have been a disaster. Which would have been the case at most airports.
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:31 pm

slcguy wrote:
The sign is 75' from the edge of the runway, which is normal In this case RW 31L is concrete 200' wide, 100' either side of centerline. The 100' plus 75' gives you the 175' from runway centerline. RW 31L at JFK also has asphalt shoulders that are 80' wide on either side of the runway, these are not part of the runway nor full strength but do give a paved surface out to 180' from centerline which puts the signs just on the paved surface, At many airports the runways are narrower with narrower shoulders resulting in the distance remaining sign out in the grass.

Thanks, this helps visualize the situation.

A321 with winglets extends 59' off center line, we have 100' of runway off center line, then asphalt shoulder to 180', with sign at 175' off center line.

We see scrape marks on the pictures of the aircraft, and presumably some one has pictures/videos of scrape marks on runway/shoulder.

D L X wrote:
I’m also alarmed that they continued flying and climbing out for many minutes before returning to JFK. I have to wonder if they cleared 10k feet and the FAs walked the cabin and found that the passengers were claiming the wing was busted.

The ATC audio just says the pilots were concerned due to the steep bank event during takeoff and they don't mention any reported damage.

I presume this type of event will result in the CVR tapes being pulled and analyzed.
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slcguy
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
slcguy wrote:
The sign is 75' from the edge of the runway, which is normal In this case RW 31L is concrete 200' wide, 100' either side of centerline. The 100' plus 75' gives you the 175' from runway centerline. RW 31L at JFK also has asphalt shoulders that are 80' wide on either side of the runway, these are not part of the runway nor full strength but do give a paved surface out to 180' from centerline which puts the signs just on the paved surface, At many airports the runways are narrower with narrower shoulders resulting in the distance remaining sign out in the grass.

Thanks, this helps visualize the situation.

A321 with winglets extends 59' off center line, we have 100' of runway off center line, then asphalt shoulder to 180', with sign at 175' off center line.

We see scrape marks on the pictures of the aircraft, and presumably some one has pictures/videos of scrape marks on runway/shoulder.

D L X wrote:
I’m also alarmed that they continued flying and climbing out for many minutes before returning to JFK. I have to wonder if they cleared 10k feet and the FAs walked the cabin and found that the passengers were claiming the wing was busted.

The ATC audio just says the pilots were concerned due to the steep bank event during takeoff and they don't mention any reported damage.

I presume this type of event will result in the CVR tapes being pulled and analyzed.



Steep bank event during take off seems an understatement, I was wondering about the CVR, is this an older plane with just 30 minutes or the newer version. 30 minutes might not go back to the takeoff.
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:09 pm

Siren wrote:
Simply going with my gut here: a guess as to what happened is possibly a wake turbulence encounter - they hit the wingtip vortices from the previous departure. Does anyone know what departed before them?

That was my thought as well ... what took off before them?

At that point in the take-off, the aircraft is still in Direct Law. Even so, I can't imagine a control input that would cause 45 degrees of bank so close to the ground. It also might explain why the pilots reported it, telling ATC of the wing tip vortex encounter. Cross winds are not good for close separation as it puts the previous aircraft's vortices right down the centre of the runway.
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:20 pm

This should make it easier to visualize the position of the sign.
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
D L X wrote:
I’m also alarmed that they continued flying and climbing out for many minutes before returning to JFK. I have to wonder if they cleared 10k feet and the FAs walked the cabin and found that the passengers were claiming the wing was busted.

The ATC audio just says the pilots were concerned due to the steep bank event during takeoff and they don't mention any reported damage.

I presume this type of event will result in the CVR tapes being pulled and analyzed.



I don't know if this is just motivated reasoning aka wanting to hear something you think should be there, but I had the impression that during the first communications in the video (when JFK Twr sends them onto the RNGRR transition and hands them over to NY Departure) the pilot answering that call sounded very nervous, like exactly the way you'd sound after barely making it.
Especially that "American 300 roger" @ 0:39 into the video sounds like he's short on breath.

This makes the entire situation about returning only once they had reached 20,000ft even weirder because you could assume they definitely knew something went wrong big time.
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Traintoplane
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:41 pm

Supposedly from a very reliable source- the captain who was doing his take off claimed his side stick became unresponsive. Aircraft barely cleared perimeter fence- this was a very close call. Can’t provide any further than that.
 
cat3appr50
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:26 pm

KJFK runway 31L is 200 ft wide X 14,511 ft long. According to the ACAMP data the AAL300 flight A321-200 with sharklets has a total wing span of 117.5 ft. The distance from aircraft vertical centerline to wing tip is 58.7 ft. The distance from the runway centerline to the (5000 ft) runway distance remaining signs is around 178 ft. Subtracting a couple feet from the outside of the sharklet to where the wing damage actually occurred results in the distance from aircraft vertical centerline to wing damage area of 56.7 ft. This means that the vertical centerline of the aircraft was around 121 ft off the runway centerline (and beyond the 200 ft. runway proper width) when the wing impacted the DR sign. The estimated roll angle from level to impact point of the DR sign would have been around 9 degrees.

Per the METAR at time of takeoff the wind averaged around 345 degrees at 16 knots (14 kn HW, 8 kn XW) with no gusts indicated, runway was dry, good weather, no storm activity, etc. Despite those conditions, the aircraft (centerline) ended up around 121 foot off the runway centerline and the wing tip area impacted a DR sign at high speed (close to Vr) that was only around 3-4 ft. high. Reports indicate the wing tip was dragging on the pavement before impacting the DR sign. Obviously a serious ground loop could have developed, which could have developed into a loss of control and very serious damage, etc. This was certainly a serious incident.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:35 pm

Anyone know the previous departure type and time relative to the AA flight? That would either eliminate or introduce a wake encounter cause?

GF
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:14 pm

slcguy wrote:
Steep bank event during take off seems an understatement, I was wondering about the CVR, is this an older plane with just 30 minutes or the newer version. 30 minutes might not go back to the takeoff.

Since another thread told us all innovation stopped in 1988, we may be out of luck.
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spacecadet
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:31 pm

It's definitely a serious incident, however the cause is probably going to be pretty pedestrian. Pilots sometimes get off centerline; flying is not an exact science. You try to fly as precisely as possible but sometimes the wind is worse than you think or maybe you're just having a bad day flying. It's rare for it to get to this point and result in an incident like this but it does happen. Just the other day we also saw an RJ at RDM that blew four tires, and it sure looks from the pictures like it was also off-centerline and probably trying to get back to it and either the side-loading or heavy braking (or a combo of both) blew the tires.

Ideally if you see the drift getting bad on takeoff you should abort, but maybe this happened after V1. Only real option then is to try to get it back, and it's possible that there was some overcorrection at or just after rotation that caused the wing strike.

Of course I'm speculating, but I don't really know what "cause" there could be for a wing strike other than a sudden gust of wind (which it doesn't look like happened, from the METAR), a mechanical problem with the flight controls (which there's no indication of here), or a drift off center that's either uncorrected or overcorrected. Wake turbulence could theoretically do it too, but there are so many safeguards against that on takeoff that it just seems really unlikely when common drift happens way more frequently.
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MD80Ttail
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:50 am

spacecadet wrote:
It's definitely a serious incident, however the cause is probably going to be pretty pedestrian. Pilots sometimes get off centerline; flying is not an exact science. You try to fly as precisely as possible but sometimes the wind is worse than you think or maybe you're just having a bad day flying. It's rare for it to get to this point and result in an incident like this but it does happen. Just the other day we also saw an RJ at RDM that blew four tires, and it sure looks from the pictures like it was also off-centerline and probably trying to get back to it and either the side-loading or heavy braking (or a combo of both) blew the tires.

Ideally if you see the drift getting bad on takeoff you should abort, but maybe this happened after V1. Only real option then is to try to get it back, and it's possible that there was some overcorrection at or just after rotation that caused the wing strike.

Of course I'm speculating, but I don't really know what "cause" there could be for a wing strike other than a sudden gust of wind (which it doesn't look like happened, from the METAR), a mechanical problem with the flight controls (which there's no indication of here), or a drift off center that's either uncorrected or overcorrected. Wake turbulence could theoretically do it too, but there are so many safeguards against that on takeoff that it just seems really unlikely when common drift happens way more frequently.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: maybe the sign moved? Glad everyone is ok.
 
Lightamp
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:53 am

I was on this flight and it was the roughest takeoff by far I had ever been a part of. To the point I bought the internet after take off and texted my father within 8 minutes to tell him how bad it was. It took over 10 minutes for the pilot to tell us of an incident that he related to “computer problems”. As a passenger, the pilot warned of turbulence on the climb prior to take off. I believe most passengers thought it was just really bad turbulence immediately after take off and brushed it off until the pilot advised of computer problems. Looking forward, I was on the right side of the plane and the damage was to the left. I have heard (unconfirmed) that passengers told the stewards/stewardess of visible damage to the wing and it was reported to the pilot and hence the decision to return. I don’t think he knew he hit anything (if that is possible). I was very shaken as were many others. The incident was a blurr and absolute insanity at take off but as we gained altitude the pilot gained control. The pilot freaked out the passengers by announcing we were returning to JFK and to prepare the cabin. There was no confidence our landing was going to be safe. Everyone on the plane was shaken and the on-flight crew was wonderful from a steward/stewardess perspective.I flew again the following day on the same flight number, same take off time without incident as I had work to do and couldn’t fly back with the others. Again, the on flight crew was wonderful.

I really only have 1 question as I follow blog after blog. Will I ever know what happened and how long does it normally take? I feel very fortunate to be here today!
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FabDiva
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:27 am

Lightamp wrote:

I really only have 1 question as I follow blog after blog. Will I ever know what happened and how long does it normally take? I feel very fortunate to be here today!


The NTSB will be looking into this, they will publish a report, but timescale will depend on what they find from the 'black boxes' and how in depth they need to go.
 
TC957
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:46 am

Thank you Lightamp for your first post on A-net re your first hand experience and welcome to A-net.
Well scary for sure. Surely the bang of an impact would have told the crew they connected with something !
As for will you ever know what happened, well, you can read it all here but the official version will come out once the CVR is downloaded I suspect and other data analysed.
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:34 pm

Thank God for frangible runway fittings. A couple decades ago the sign would have been happy to cut off the outer wing.

For those who aren't familiar, "frangible" means breakable, and for airport design all signs, posts, antenna, towers, etc within a certain zone need to break easily and cleanly. There were instances in the past where heavily-built fittings ripped the guts out of wayward aircraft, turning a marginal situation into a "game over" situation. So now all such things are designed to try to yield to an oncoming high-speed thin-skinned object. "Frangibility" is the name of that science in airport terms.
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:41 pm

Lightamp wrote:
I was on this flight and it was the roughest takeoff by far I had ever been a part of. To the point I bought the internet after take off and texted my father within 8 minutes to tell him how bad it was. It took over 10 minutes for the pilot to tell us of an incident that he related to “computer problems”. As a passenger, the pilot warned of turbulence on the climb prior to take off. I believe most passengers thought it was just really bad turbulence immediately after take off and brushed it off until the pilot advised of computer problems. Looking forward, I was on the right side of the plane and the damage was to the left. I have heard (unconfirmed) that passengers told the stewards/stewardess of visible damage to the wing and it was reported to the pilot and hence the decision to return. I don’t think he knew he hit anything (if that is possible). I was very shaken as were many others. The incident was a blurr and absolute insanity at take off but as we gained altitude the pilot gained control. The pilot freaked out the passengers by announcing we were returning to JFK and to prepare the cabin. There was no confidence our landing was going to be safe. Everyone on the plane was shaken and the on-flight crew was wonderful from a steward/stewardess perspective.I flew again the following day on the same flight number, same take off time without incident as I had work to do and couldn’t fly back with the others. Again, the on flight crew was wonderful.

I really only have 1 question as I follow blog after blog. Will I ever know what happened and how long does it normally take? I feel very fortunate to be here today!


wow. what a story. here's an article today describing an "uncommanded roll to the left" by the pilots: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-a ... -reported/
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DALMD80
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:54 pm

WOW! "The FAA is investigating. They released a statement saying, "The pilot reported that the Airbus 321 may have collided with an object during departure...workers discovered damage to the left wing, possibly caused by striking a runway sign and airport light departure." " Airport light departure? HOW DID THIS HAPPEN??? Someone screwed up...
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:57 pm

Lightamp wrote:
I was on this flight and it was the roughest takeoff by far I had ever been a part of.

And we're glad you're alive! Not to be alarmist, but go out and enjoy life. You were close.

Was it bumpy after you actually left the ground?

Lightamp wrote:
It took over 10 minutes for the pilot to tell us of an incident that he related to “computer problems”.

I wouldn't worry about that. In a pickle, I want my pilots flying the plane, not giving me an update.

Lightamp wrote:
I have heard (unconfirmed) that passengers told the stewards/stewardess of visible damage to the wing and it was reported to the pilot and hence the decision to return. I don’t think he knew he hit anything (if that is possible).

This was my suspicion as well, considering the time it took for the pilot to radio that they were returning. I don't think they would have continued to climb if they had initially suspected that they had hit something.



Guys, this reminds me a little of the QR flight from Miami that hit a bunch of approach lights taking off from Miami. They flew all the way to Doha and found that the hull had actually been punctured! http://avherald.com/h?article=48c78b3a

Are we sure that the only damage to the AA plane was the wingtip? Any reports of further damage?
 
mm320cap
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:10 pm

boeingguy1 wrote:
Lightamp wrote:
I was on this flight and it was the roughest takeoff by far I had ever been a part of. To the point I bought the internet after take off and texted my father within 8 minutes to tell him how bad it was. It took over 10 minutes for the pilot to tell us of an incident that he related to “computer problems”. As a passenger, the pilot warned of turbulence on the climb prior to take off. I believe most passengers thought it was just really bad turbulence immediately after take off and brushed it off until the pilot advised of computer problems. Looking forward, I was on the right side of the plane and the damage was to the left. I have heard (unconfirmed) that passengers told the stewards/stewardess of visible damage to the wing and it was reported to the pilot and hence the decision to return. I don’t think he knew he hit anything (if that is possible). I was very shaken as were many others. The incident was a blurr and absolute insanity at take off but as we gained altitude the pilot gained control. The pilot freaked out the passengers by announcing we were returning to JFK and to prepare the cabin. There was no confidence our landing was going to be safe. Everyone on the plane was shaken and the on-flight crew was wonderful from a steward/stewardess perspective.I flew again the following day on the same flight number, same take off time without incident as I had work to do and couldn’t fly back with the others. Again, the on flight crew was wonderful.

I really only have 1 question as I follow blog after blog. Will I ever know what happened and how long does it normally take? I feel very fortunate to be here today!


wow. what a story. here's an article today describing an "uncommanded roll to the left" by the pilots: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-a ... -reported/


So these guys had an un-commanded 45 degree roll at rotation severe enough to hit a sign, and then continued to climb and join the SID as if nothing had happened??? Ok........that’s one way to play it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:09 pm

mm320cap wrote:
So these guys had an un-commanded 45 degree roll at rotation severe enough to hit a sign, and then continued to climb and join the SID as if nothing had happened??? Ok........that’s one way to play it.


It would seem. Hence my confusion up-thread.
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aaexecplat
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:29 pm

mm320cap wrote:
boeingguy1 wrote:
Lightamp wrote:
I was on this flight and it was the roughest takeoff by far I had ever been a part of. To the point I bought the internet after take off and texted my father within 8 minutes to tell him how bad it was. It took over 10 minutes for the pilot to tell us of an incident that he related to “computer problems”. As a passenger, the pilot warned of turbulence on the climb prior to take off. I believe most passengers thought it was just really bad turbulence immediately after take off and brushed it off until the pilot advised of computer problems. Looking forward, I was on the right side of the plane and the damage was to the left. I have heard (unconfirmed) that passengers told the stewards/stewardess of visible damage to the wing and it was reported to the pilot and hence the decision to return. I don’t think he knew he hit anything (if that is possible). I was very shaken as were many others. The incident was a blurr and absolute insanity at take off but as we gained altitude the pilot gained control. The pilot freaked out the passengers by announcing we were returning to JFK and to prepare the cabin. There was no confidence our landing was going to be safe. Everyone on the plane was shaken and the on-flight crew was wonderful from a steward/stewardess perspective.I flew again the following day on the same flight number, same take off time without incident as I had work to do and couldn’t fly back with the others. Again, the on flight crew was wonderful.

I really only have 1 question as I follow blog after blog. Will I ever know what happened and how long does it normally take? I feel very fortunate to be here today!


wow. what a story. here's an article today describing an "uncommanded roll to the left" by the pilots: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-a ... -reported/


So these guys had an un-commanded 45 degree roll at rotation severe enough to hit a sign, and then continued to climb and join the SID as if nothing had happened??? Ok........that’s one way to play it.


All the way up to FL200 no less. Any chance they did that to get the Takeoff off the CVR?
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:32 pm

aaexecplat wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
boeingguy1 wrote:

wow. what a story. here's an article today describing an "uncommanded roll to the left" by the pilots: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-a ... -reported/


So these guys had an un-commanded 45 degree roll at rotation severe enough to hit a sign, and then continued to climb and join the SID as if nothing had happened??? Ok........that’s one way to play it.


All the way up to FL200 no less. Any chance they did that to get the Takeoff off the CVR?


I can't imagine a pilot with a visibly damaged airplane knowingly flying his plane any longer than necessary. His life is on the line as well. To me, it seems like the crew simply did not know that there was damage until past 10,000 feet, and even then, did not know the extent of the damage until they landed.
 
estorilm
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:25 pm

Have there been any other instances of dramatic uncommanded side-stick actuations previously? Considering the time frame (late 80's) till now, with the number of aircraft out there.. this seems crazy to me.

Likewise, if it was completely uncommanded, I suppose they just got REALLY LUCKY that the electrical gremlin that caused the roll decided to stop just before rolling the wing completely into the ground.

Also seems pretty unprofessional of the crew to announce that they had a "computer problem" after the flight is airborne - doubly so with the a large portion of the traveling public's paranoia surrounding "automation" following the MAX incidents and such in the media.
 
airplane
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:57 pm

As soon as I saw the subject, I had to come in and see the insults haha
Gotta love seeing the world from above
 
Exeiowa
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:14 pm

A good job those pilots had there 1500hrs before being given comand of this plane.
 
Kno
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:56 pm

Lightamp wrote:
I was on this flight and it was the roughest takeoff by far I had ever been a part of. To the point I bought the internet after take off and texted my father within 8 minutes to tell him how bad it was. It took over 10 minutes for the pilot to tell us of an incident that he related to “computer problems”. As a passenger, the pilot warned of turbulence on the climb prior to take off. I believe most passengers thought it was just really bad turbulence immediately after take off and brushed it off until the pilot advised of computer problems. Looking forward, I was on the right side of the plane and the damage was to the left. I have heard (unconfirmed) that passengers told the stewards/stewardess of visible damage to the wing and it was reported to the pilot and hence the decision to return. I don’t think he knew he hit anything (if that is possible). I was very shaken as were many others. The incident was a blurr and absolute insanity at take off but as we gained altitude the pilot gained control. The pilot freaked out the passengers by announcing we were returning to JFK and to prepare the cabin. There was no confidence our landing was going to be safe. Everyone on the plane was shaken and the on-flight crew was wonderful from a steward/stewardess perspective.I flew again the following day on the same flight number, same take off time without incident as I had work to do and couldn’t fly back with the others. Again, the on flight crew was wonderful.

I really only have 1 question as I follow blog after blog. Will I ever know what happened and how long does it normally take? I feel very fortunate to be here today!


I'm sorry this happened to you and I'm glad you're safe!

Did you have a window seat and notice the aircraft straying from the center line? If there was a 45 degree roll that must have been very dramatic as well?
 
Okie
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:20 pm

Lightamp wrote:
“computer problems”.
:roll:
mm320cap wrote:
So these guys had an un-commanded 45 degree roll at rotation severe enough to hit a sign,
:roll: :roll:

Me thinks a long way from 45 deg roll.

My suspicion at this point would be improper data entered either for flex/derate take-off or bugs set incorrectly for this particular take-off due to runway switch or miscalculation of crosswind component.

My first guess for dragging a wing for considerable distance would be Vr bug set too low and wing stalled out and sunk on downwind side would be responsible for the aircraft not to respond to control input if it was not at a flying speed at that point.

That is just a wild guess.

Okie
 
spacecadet
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:29 pm

estorilm wrote:
Have there been any other instances of dramatic uncommanded side-stick actuations previously?


As I implied in my last reply, I strongly doubt it was an "uncommanded side-stick actuation". From the passenger description, it may have been a strong gust of wind and/or pilot correction (or overcorrection). The METAR didn't sound so bad but I know from experience myself flying small planes that sometimes the METAR can be out of date within that hour, or just wrong to begin with. (Just yesterday I flew under a METAR that listed the wind at 5 knots, but the wind socks showed greater than 15.) METARs are snapshots in time and sometimes they may catch the wind when it just happens to be in a short-lived lull.

Alternatively, if the pilots are to be believed about a "computer problem", that implies the aircraft itself began a roll just after rotation. I can't see how that wouldn't be some kind of pilot error, though - engaging the wrong AP mode at the wrong time, for example, or not having the heading bug set correctly and engaging heading mode just after rotation. That seems less likely to me, though, because you'd basically never engage the auto-pilot that early. Get the plane stable in a climb and cleaned up first, at least.

If it was a true uncommanded roll, that would be an even more serious incident and I can't imagine any pilot would just keep flying under those conditions, whether or not they knew there was any damage to the wing.
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airportugal310
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:45 pm

spacecadet wrote:
estorilm wrote:
Have there been any other instances of dramatic uncommanded side-stick actuations previously?


If it was a true uncommanded roll, that would be an even more serious incident and I can't imagine any pilot would just keep flying under those conditions, whether or not they knew there was any damage to the wing.


Agreed. Continuing prolonged flight with a "suspect" airplane at that point is not the right thing to do
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GlobalMoose
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:48 am

Does anyone know how to look up the aircraft that departed immediately prior to this flight? My industry friend says it was an A380 but I'd like to confirm the info.

Wake turbulence can cause a severe rolling moment where your flight controls may not have the authority to overcome, this may explain why the pilot claimed the side stick was unresponsive.

Normally you would try to rotate before a heavier aircraft's point of rotation and out climb the preceding aircraft's wake turbulence (wake turbulence begins at rotate, ends at touchdown). When you have cross winds, they normally blow the wake turbulence away from the runway, however, the winds were 330/15, pretty much right down the pipe for their departure runway 31L. This would essentially push the wake turbulence east (closer to the rotation point of the AA jet, and yes, I am assuming here the A380 had a longer takeoff roll than the AA in this case since I don't have performance data and I feel like I must list every assumption else be flamed here on Anet ;-) ) If there was an A380 taking off immediately prior and proper wake turbulence standards weren't adhered to (or some atmospheric phenomenon occurred that kept the wake turbulence on / near the runway past the separation time) this might have been the culprit.
When it absolutely positively has to be there ... at some point.
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:05 am

It looks like this bird, N114NN, hasn't flown since the accident.

Another passenger reports this on avherald:
I was aboard this aircraft. The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways, I was in the window seat just behind the left wing. Then it felt like the pilot pulled the aircraft up manually. He continued to make very strong left and right banks while in the air before we circled back to JFK. He made an announcement that we had a major computer failure, but that he had control of the airplane and that we'll be making an emergency landing. I watched the metal flap above the wind the whole 43 mins we were in the air. The flight attendants went to the exit rows and said "this is not a drill" can you open the emergency doors to the passengers. I want to hear the audio and see the faa report. If anyone knows how long or where to look for this information that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:57 am

The NTSB is now going to investigate, that could be one of the reasons the plane hasn’t flown. Per CBS.
 
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:09 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
https://twitter.com/cbsthismorning/status/1118490854451240961?s=21

At least they used the current livery in the animation : sarcasm ;)
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:08 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
https://twitter.com/cbsthismorning/status/1118490854451240961?s=21

At least they used the current livery in the animation : sarcasm ;)

They ALMOST got it right. :)

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