Kno
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:33 pm

D L X wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
https://twitter.com/cbsthismorning/status/1118490854451240961?s=21

At least they used the current livery in the animation : sarcasm ;)

They ALMOST got it right. :)


I’m just impressed that they realized this particular a321 is a custom one off built with the nose gear under the l2 door and double boogies.
 
triple3driver
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:56 pm

Jeez. I've performed loads of crosswinds in my career, and even A330s aren't exactly easy in these conditions, but generally it doesn't take long to be able to solve the issue. But, generally speaking, you apply enough rudder and deflect the ailerons and get some speed, it should be all right, you may move around the runway if it's severe enough, but nothing too dangerous. Based on the metar reports, it seems like winds were bad, but I've seen worse. It appears like they didn't anticipate the severity of the winds and didn't deflect or apply enough rudder to keep the aircraft centered, and that occurred. Why they didn't realize it and attempt to recover is beyond me, but we're human beings, and need to remember our mistakes so that we don't repeat them. Still, don't envy the PIC, doesn't seem like their company will have kind words for them.
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Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:50 pm

Nose gear under L2?

Um no and no double bogey

https://airwaysmag.com/wp-content/uploa ... x365_c.jpg
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:33 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Nose gear under L2?

Um no and no double bogey

https://airwaysmag.com/wp-content/uploa ... x365_c.jpg


It was all there in the CBS video though. Check it out.
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OB1504
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:17 pm

Is it possible that the crew knew they’d made a mistake and kept flying so the CVR recording would be overwritten, or do the recordings now last more than 30 minutes?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:31 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Is it possible that the crew knew they’d made a mistake and kept flying so the CVR recording would be overwritten, or do the recordings now last more than 30 minutes?

Do you really believe the crew put their own lives at risk for that? That's down right the conspiracy theory path...
 
OB1504
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:34 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Is it possible that the crew knew they’d made a mistake and kept flying so the CVR recording would be overwritten, or do the recordings now last more than 30 minutes?

Do you really believe the crew put their own lives at risk for that? That's down right the conspiracy theory path...


It’s not unprecedented. Recently, we had the Qatar crew that kept flying 14 hours to Doha after hitting approach lights on takeoff from Miami. There was also the loss of control on a TWA flight in the 1970s where the crew misused the flaps during cruise, and the captain “accidentally” deleted the CVR recording after landing.
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:58 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Nose gear under L2?

Um no and no double bogey

https://airwaysmag.com/wp-content/uploa ... x365_c.jpg


It was all there in the CBS video though. Check it out.


Amazing the comical animations created these days...sheesh.
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
khobar95
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:15 pm

I'm a bit confused - reports say the plane returned to JFK, yet some here say the flight continued. Which is it?
 
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flybynight
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here’s the link to the accident article on Avherald.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c68c5a8&opt=0

Fair use quote:

According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip.


Oy! That takeoff, along with the 45 degree roll reported above, had to be a real butt clencher for the pilots!


Not to mention the passengers and F/A's.
Heia Norge!
 
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flybynight
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:18 pm

khobar95 wrote:
I'm a bit confused - reports say the plane returned to JFK, yet some here say the flight continued. Which is it?


Back to JFK after climbing out over NJ and to 20,000 feet.
Not sure if they had to dump fuel or not.
Heia Norge!
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:19 pm

It seems the media is finally picking up on this incident, in their usual fashion:

CBS: American Airlines jet "nearly crashed" during takeoff at JFK last week

Other than the hype, the report says:

The FAA is investigating and have not determined why the plane banked sharply at a critical moment of takeoff. The NTSB has requested data from the incident. After this report, the NTSB also announced a formal investigation, saying in the statement: "The FAA, American Airlines, and the Allied Pilots Association will be parties to the NTSB's investigation, and the BEA of France has designated an Accredited Representative as the state of design and manufacture of the airplane with Airbus as their technical advisor."

Should be interesting reading the eventual report.

Does anyone know if the airplane is back in service?
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flybynight
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:23 pm

triple3driver wrote:
Jeez. I've performed loads of crosswinds in my career, and even A330s aren't exactly easy in these conditions, but generally it doesn't take long to be able to solve the issue. But, generally speaking, you apply enough rudder and deflect the ailerons and get some speed, it should be all right, you may move around the runway if it's severe enough, but nothing too dangerous. Based on the metar reports, it seems like winds were bad, but I've seen worse. It appears like they didn't anticipate the severity of the winds and didn't deflect or apply enough rudder to keep the aircraft centered, and that occurred. Why they didn't realize it and attempt to recover is beyond me, but we're human beings, and need to remember our mistakes so that we don't repeat them. Still, don't envy the PIC, doesn't seem like their company will have kind words for them.


Lets say this was a pilot error of some type, what usually happens? Are they dismissed? Warning? Reprimand?
We are human and errors happen especially when you combine them with nature throwing you a curveball.
Heia Norge!
 
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flybynight
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
It seems the media is finally picking up on this incident, in their usual fashion:

CBS: American Airlines jet "nearly crashed" during takeoff at JFK last week

Other than the hype, the report says:

The FAA is investigating and have not determined why the plane banked sharply at a critical moment of takeoff. The NTSB has requested data from the incident. After this report, the NTSB also announced a formal investigation, saying in the statement: "The FAA, American Airlines, and the Allied Pilots Association will be parties to the NTSB's investigation, and the BEA of France has designated an Accredited Representative as the state of design and manufacture of the airplane with Airbus as their technical advisor."

Should be interesting reading the eventual report.

Does anyone know if the airplane is back in service?


That was a fair amount of damage. Seems like it would take more than a week to repair
Heia Norge!
 
questions
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:26 pm

flybynight wrote:
Back to JFK after climbing out over NJ and to 20,000 feet.
Not sure if they had to dump fuel or not.


Forgetting the potential need for a fuel dump... why would they not have done a fly around like in an aborted landing? How did the pilots know the extent of damage to the aircraft? Flying to 20,000 feet sounds risky.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:36 pm

Mechanics from TUL went to JFK and repaired the damage.
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:37 pm

questions wrote:
flybynight wrote:
Back to JFK after climbing out over NJ and to 20,000 feet.
Not sure if they had to dump fuel or not.


Forgetting the potential need for a fuel dump... why would they not have done a fly around like in an aborted landing? How did the pilots know the extent of damage to the aircraft? Flying to 20,000 feet sounds risky.

FYI, A320 family has no fuel dump system.

Good article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/trav ... dump-fuel/
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Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:38 pm

I don’t think the A321 has the capability to dump fuel, most narrowbodies don’t
 
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Revelation
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:38 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Mechanics from TUL went to JFK and repaired the damage.

Any word on if the "loss of control" was due to something wrong with the plane?
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Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:39 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Boof02671 wrote:
Mechanics from TUL went to JFK and repaired the damage.


Actually not that hard, sharklet, aileron and leading edge.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Mechanics from TUL went to JFK and repaired the damage.

Any word on if the "loss of control" was due to something wrong with the plane?

Have not heard, that would be an avionics issue, not the wing damage. I believe they pulled the Data, and CVR not sure about any flight control components. But all would have to be tested before being signed off as airworthy.
 
hivue
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:47 pm

GlobalMoose wrote:
Does anyone know how to look up the aircraft that departed immediately prior to this flight? My industry friend says it was an A380 but I'd like to confirm the info.

Wake turbulence can cause a severe rolling moment where your flight controls may not have the authority to overcome, this may explain why the pilot claimed the side stick was unresponsive.


Under the "when you hear hoof beats think hoses not zebras" principle, why is this not rated higher on the speculation scale than weird acting side sticks or AA crew who can't take off in a crosswind?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:54 pm

hivue wrote:
GlobalMoose wrote:
Does anyone know how to look up the aircraft that departed immediately prior to this flight? My industry friend says it was an A380 but I'd like to confirm the info.

Wake turbulence can cause a severe rolling moment where your flight controls may not have the authority to overcome, this may explain why the pilot claimed the side stick was unresponsive.


Under the "when you hear hoof beats think hoses not zebras" principle, why is this not rated higher on the speculation scale than weird acting side sticks or AA crew who can't take off in a crosswind?


A few people on this thread, (myself included) have suggested this, and I too wonder that it seems a much more plausible cause then non-capable pilots or non-functioning sidesticks!

Further, a fully loaded A321 about to head west on a transcon would likely use about the same runway as an A380.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
DUSdude
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:58 pm

This whole incident reminds me of this:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=147094
 
chrisair
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:58 pm

hivue wrote:
Under the "when you hear hoof beats think hoses not zebras" principle, why is this not rated higher on the speculation scale than weird acting side sticks or AA crew who can't take off in a crosswind?


Because it's not nearly as fun to speculate on wake turbulence.

Personally, I think it was the chemtrail system acting weird and activating way too early. ;)
 
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zeke
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:12 pm

chrisair wrote:
Personally, I think it was the chemtrail system acting weird and activating way too early. ;)


Apparently the crew had an ECAM “NAV CBTPS FAULT” (crystal ball turbulence prediction system) during taxi to the holding point. After opening the cockpit window and putting his finger out to get the wind speed the Captain flipped a coin and got heads so they departed. With that fault the system was not able to generate a predictive wake turbulence warning during the takeoff roll. :roll:
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1989worstyear
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:00 pm

DUSdude wrote:
This whole incident reminds me of this:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=147094


Surprised this wasn't found in functional testing after the new ELAC connector was fitted :?
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
VS11
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:08 pm

D L X wrote:
It looks like this bird, N114NN, hasn't flown since the accident.

Another passenger reports this on avherald:
I was aboard this aircraft. The take off was fast, rather quick and felt short. Then we pitched down and banked right (left wing up) and then left (right wing up) and the back felt to skid out sideways, I was in the window seat just behind the left wing. Then it felt like the pilot pulled the aircraft up manually. He continued to make very strong left and right banks while in the air before we circled back to JFK. He made an announcement that we had a major computer failure, but that he had control of the airplane and that we'll be making an emergency landing. I watched the metal flap above the wind the whole 43 mins we were in the air. The flight attendants went to the exit rows and said "this is not a drill" can you open the emergency doors to the passengers. I want to hear the audio and see the faa report. If anyone knows how long or where to look for this information that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Based on this pax account, is it silly to suggest the aircraft was in ground effect, took off prematurely and caught the pilots off guard and while they were dealing with this, there was crosswind/turbulence?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:06 am

OB1504 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Is it possible that the crew knew they’d made a mistake and kept flying so the CVR recording would be overwritten, or do the recordings now last more than 30 minutes?

Do you really believe the crew put their own lives at risk for that? That's down right the conspiracy theory path...


It’s not unprecedented. Recently, we had the Qatar crew that kept flying 14 hours to Doha after hitting approach lights on takeoff from Miami. There was also the loss of control on a TWA flight in the 1970s where the crew misused the flaps during cruise, and the captain “accidentally” deleted the CVR recording after landing.

The QR crew said they went aware they hit the lights; so they didn't continue the flight "just to erase the CVR Data.
The 1970's was 40-50 years ago; things have changed "just a little bit" since. There is much more evidence available (through everyone having cell phones/cameras and whatnot) that could easily incriminate the pilots shall they decide to perform such a stunt.
 
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:13 am

longhauler wrote:
hivue wrote:
GlobalMoose wrote:

Further, a fully loaded A321 about to head west on a transcon would likely use about the same runway as an A380.


This was what AA calls an A321T, the transcon low density, high premium version with just 102 seats, 1-1 lie flat in first, 2-2 lie flat in biz, small 3-3 Y in back. Likely much lighter.
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:45 am

I listened to the ATC archives and the departure prior to this was an Envoy ERJ-140. There was also an Icelandair 763 that departed 4L around the same time as the Envoy. Both departed about 2 minutes before the American because the JetBlue that was in line ahead of AA300 wasn't ready, so there was a longer-than-normal gap between departures. That probably reduces the likelihood of wake turbulence as the cause. The wind direction did shift from 350 to 010 about 5 minutes before departure, so there would've been a combination of a crosswind and a tailwind.
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AirKevin
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:17 pm

GlobalMoose wrote:
Does anyone know how to look up the aircraft that departed immediately prior to this flight? My industry friend says it was an A380 but I'd like to confirm the info.

Listen to LiveATC, get the flight number, look up said flight number on FlightAware.
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ltbewr
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 am

This link has some good picture of the damage to the plane. They may have actually flown with part of a light lodged in the wing !. This was a serious incident and some of the preliminary comments of the NTSB are very disturbing. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/america ... 22412.html
 
USAirKid
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:58 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Nose gear under L2?

Um no and no double bogey

https://airwaysmag.com/wp-content/uploa ... x365_c.jpg


Not to mention they had an Airbus in the 1970-2013 livery, juxtaposed against photos of it in the lovely ugly flag colors livery.
 
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flybynight
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Mechanics from TUL went to JFK and repaired the damage.

Any word on if the "loss of control" was due to something wrong with the plane?

Duh on my part. I knew that but somehow posted that anyway.
I am getting old and forgetful. :old:
Heia Norge!
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:32 am

A comment elsewhere suggests that the plane may have been blown off centerline by a jumbo using a rather aggressive thrust on a neighboring taxiway. Plausible?
 
impilot
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:40 am

D L X wrote:
A comment elsewhere suggests that the plane may have been blown off centerline by a jumbo using a rather aggressive thrust on a neighboring taxiway. Plausible?

Doubtful
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:56 am

longhauler wrote:
hivue wrote:
GlobalMoose wrote:
Does anyone know how to look up the aircraft that departed immediately prior to this flight? My industry friend says it was an A380 but I'd like to confirm the info.

Wake turbulence can cause a severe rolling moment where your flight controls may not have the authority to overcome, this may explain why the pilot claimed the side stick was unresponsive.


Under the "when you hear hoof beats think hoses not zebras" principle, why is this not rated higher on the speculation scale than weird acting side sticks or AA crew who can't take off in a crosswind?


A few people on this thread, (myself included) have suggested this, and I too wonder that it seems a much more plausible cause then non-capable pilots or non-functioning sidesticks!

Further, a fully loaded A321 about to head west on a transcon would likely use about the same runway as an A380.


The AA A321T only has around 100 seats. A very light configuration. It wouldn't need that much runway to takeoff.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:14 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
The AA A321T only has around 100 seats. A very light configuration. It wouldn't need that much runway to takeoff.

Yes, a few people have said that. But ...

It would also be carrying about 22,000 kgs of fuel. The, ~4,500 kgs of passenger weight difference between this configuration and a regular configuration would not make that much difference on runway length when nearing MTOW.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
DKS713
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:30 am

The ac is not repaired yet.
My guess is it will take month(s)......
Damage is extensive, much more than we have seen here.
Cant wait for the report.
 
bigred10k
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun May 05, 2019 1:18 pm

Have any preliminary reports been released yet?
 
Richie72
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:11 pm

Surprisingly quiet regarding this serious incident 2.5 months ago! The aircraft hasn’t returned to service yet from what I can see. Anyone know when any reports will be released?
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:18 pm

AA was supposed to make a further evaluation today.

TULE sent mechanics to JFK and did some repairs.

It’s stored at JFK at the moment
 
11C
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:07 pm

OB1504 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Is it possible that the crew knew they’d made a mistake and kept flying so the CVR recording would be overwritten, or do the recordings now last more than 30 minutes?

Do you really believe the crew put their own lives at risk for that? That's down right the conspiracy theory path...


It’s not unprecedented. Recently, we had the Qatar crew that kept flying 14 hours to Doha after hitting approach lights on takeoff from Miami. There was also the loss of control on a TWA flight in the 1970s where the crew misused the flaps during cruise, and the captain “accidentally” deleted the CVR recording after landing.


There are over 100,000 flight/day worldwide. In a few days I’d say there are enough flights to say that two examples, one recent, one from the 70’s, do not make much of a precedent. A couple examples in millions of iterations looks like random outliers to me.
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:59 pm

Any update? Has this plane moved yet? It’s now been 3 months.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:30 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Am I the only one who (mis)read that headline and though AA doesn't have A300's anymore?


You are not the only one. I thought the same :smile:
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:50 pm

Just messaged with a friend at AA JFK MTC, plane is pickled and parked, mums the word on what’s wrong or what decision to be made. Rumor has it wing might be bent.
 
D L X
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Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:34 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Just messaged with a friend at AA JFK MTC, plane is pickled and parked, mums the word on what’s wrong or what decision to be made. Rumor has it wing might be bent.

Thanks.

That does not sound like it's coming back any time soon, nor does it sound like minor damage.

Can a 5 year old A321 economically come back from a bent wing?

Man, this sounds like it was a way more serious situation than perhaps the crew appreciated in the air.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:48 pm

D L X wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Just messaged with a friend at AA JFK MTC, plane is pickled and parked, mums the word on what’s wrong or what decision to be made. Rumor has it wing might be bent.

Thanks.

That does not sound like it's coming back any time soon, nor does it sound like minor damage.

Can a 5 year old A321 economically come back from a bent wing?

Man, this sounds like it was a way more serious situation than perhaps the crew appreciated in the air.

Yes they can fix/replace a wing. They’d have to bring in the Airbus AOG team. It all depends what the insurance company determines if it will be fixed or not.

They can scrap it, AA can convert an existing A321 which probably won’t be cost effective, order or covert an existing new build or do nothing as they are still enough planes to fly the routes. They are ending A321T service from and too BOS.
 
D L X
Posts: 12468
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:01 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
They can scrap it, AA can convert an existing A321 which probably won’t be cost effective, order or covert an existing new build or do nothing as they are still enough planes to fly the routes. They are ending A321T service from and too BOS.

Thanks again. That's too bad about BOS. I hope the JFK accident isn't the reason.

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