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AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:59 am
by LAXLHR
https://abc7ny.com/american-airlines-fl ... e/5242796/

Would love to hear thoughts on this, especially given where the damage occurred.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:15 am
by Spacepope
Someone’s gonna have to take a pee test.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:15 am
by EA CO AS
LAXLHR wrote:
Would love to hear thoughts on this


I think two people are getting drug tested.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:30 am
by SierraPacific
What object near a runway or taxiway would be tall enough to hit by the sharklet? I am having a tough time imagining a sign that tall anywhere at an airport.

The only other explanation I can think of is the aircraft leaving the ground and then going sideways but that seems extremely unlikely.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:49 am
by planecane
SierraPacific wrote:
What object near a runway or taxiway would be tall enough to hit by the sharklet? I am having a tough time imagining a sign that tall anywhere at an airport.

The only other explanation I can think of is the aircraft leaving the ground and then going sideways but that seems extremely unlikely.


It didn't just hit the sharklet. You can see damage on the leading edge as well several feet from the sharklet. This is going to be interesting...

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:11 am
by FlyingElvii
First thought: DRONE....

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:15 am
by SierraPacific
planecane wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
What object near a runway or taxiway would be tall enough to hit by the sharklet? I am having a tough time imagining a sign that tall anywhere at an airport.

The only other explanation I can think of is the aircraft leaving the ground and then going sideways but that seems extremely unlikely.


It didn't just hit the sharklet. You can see damage on the leading edge as well several feet from the sharklet. This is going to be interesting...


I see that now. I know that witness testimony is seriously unreliable but I wonder what caused the roll that was talked about in the article. I can't think of a sign at an airport that would be big enough to leave damage that spread out on the leading edge

This is going to be a strange one.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:17 am
by alggag
Surely there would be bits of something left out on the runway that should give a clue.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:55 am
by spacecadet
Wing strike. Not all that unusual, although the winds didn't seem too bad at the time - 17 knots, no gust factor reported. But clearly the plane rolled and hit something on the ground - it doesn't seem like a huge mystery *what* happened, just why it did.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:05 am
by Boof02671
It would have to roll seriously for the wing tip to hit a sign, doesn’t seem possible. The wingtip is 12.43 feet off the ground and the top of the sharklet is an additional 7.97 feet off the ground.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... C-A321.pdf

Page 4 after the index.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:20 am
by rlwynn
There are quite a few wingstrikes on You Tube. Can happen fast.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:38 am
by StTim
I have seen plenty of videos (more often on landing) where there is asymmetric lift leading to a wing dip.

I would have thought that the new wing tip devices on the 737’s would be much more susceptible to strikes given the downward element. Is this designed to break off rather than dig in - should such incidents occur?

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:59 am
by ltbewr
Apparently per later news reports, the plane was 'off-center' as going down the runway. This link makes that reference and has a pic of he damage to he tip of the wing, mainly just inside the winglet. https://pix11.com/2019/04/11/american-a ... g-takeoff/

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:15 am
by jfklganyc
I don’t know if this info helps ... 31R is closed til Nov.

Winds were 310 G 26. They were using the 4s and 31L KE

Assuming they took off on 4L, good crosswind

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:18 pm
by aaexecplat
jfklganyc wrote:
I don’t know if this info helps ... 31R is closed til Nov.

Winds were 310 G 26. They were using the 4s and 31L KE

Assuming they took off on 4L, good crosswind


They took off on 31L.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:18 pm
by mcogator
I immediately thought this was an LAX-JFK flight, as the winds have been crazy here in LA the last couple of days. Tuesday night in dtla i could barely open my door, and being a native Floridian it felt like a bad tropical storm, without the clouds and rain, of course.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:27 pm
by cledaybuck
Am I the only one who (mis)read that headline and though AA doesn't have A300's anymore?

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:33 pm
by AWACSooner
cledaybuck wrote:
Am I the only one who (mis)read that headline and though AA doesn't have A300's anymore?

Yep...and the sarcastic thought was "maybe they hit the tail that snapped off"

Back to the subject at hand. Short of a gust knocking it into something that height, how far off centerline do you have to be at to smack something of that caliber?

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:07 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
The half span of a 737 is about 65’ and half width of the runway is 75’, so at least 10’ but there’s additional obstacle-free zone outboard.


Gf

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:14 pm
by PSAatSAN4Ever
I actually misread the topic at first and thought an A300 enroute from JFK to LAX had clipped a wing.

"How old IS this topic?"

I definitely can tell when the coffee hasn't kicked in yet!

As for responding to the story, there's not enough data to know what happened, so no blaming the airline, no blaming the airport, and no criticizing the screaming passengers from me.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:21 pm
by BWI757
SierraPacific wrote:
What object near a runway or taxiway would be tall enough to hit by the sharklet? I am having a tough time imagining a sign that tall anywhere at an airport.

The only other explanation I can think of is the aircraft leaving the ground and then going sideways but that seems extremely unlikely.


I have the same question as SierraPacific - the damage in the photo looks like a pole hit as opposed to taking out a rectangular direction/runway sign

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:17 pm
by sprxUSA
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The half span of a 737 is about 65’ and half width of the runway is 75’, so at least 10’ but there’s additional obstacle-free zone outboard.


Gf

It was an A321, so who cares about 737 dimensions?

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:10 pm
by hmmwv
Damages are at multiple places, so it's something more than a single pole.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:16 pm
by morrisond
Nice - CNN has a picture of the MAX on it's report of the incident. Even thought the MAX is grounded it's BOEING's fault an A321 hit something. I wouldn't be very happy if I was Boeing.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/11/us/ameri ... index.html

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:24 pm
by TWA302
This is on the JFK NOTAM's :

!JFK 04/158 JFK RWY 31L 5000FT DIST REMAINING SIGN MISSING 1904110513-1905250200

Probably what they took out. :eyepopping:

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:31 pm
by tistpaa727
I thought the same thing with the thread title - Wait, AA still as an A300 around and its going transcontinental!?

morrisond wrote:
Nice - CNN has a picture of the MAX on it's report of the incident. Even thought the MAX is grounded it's BOEING's fault an A321 hit something. I wouldn't be very happy if I was Boeing.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/11/us/ameri ... index.html


I saw this too and figured they'd have a reference to MCAS as the reason this happened. :roll:

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:35 pm
by LAXLHR
TWA302 wrote:
This is on the JFK NOTAM's :

!JFK 04/158 JFK RWY 31L 5000FT DIST REMAINING SIGN MISSING 1904110513-1905250200

Probably what they took out. :eyepopping:


Ok I just looked up what this sign looks like. How off center was this plane, and how did the wing end up down there?.

Something IS very off with this.

I've been on over 250 A320/321s. I've actually taken this same flight a couple of times. I can't even imagine what it would take for the wing to hit (well anything).

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:04 pm
by Antarius
LAXLHR wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
This is on the JFK NOTAM's :

!JFK 04/158 JFK RWY 31L 5000FT DIST REMAINING SIGN MISSING 1904110513-1905250200

Probably what they took out. :eyepopping:


Ok I just looked up what this sign looks like. How off center was this plane, and how did the wing end up down there?.

Something IS very off with this.

I've been on over 250 A320/321s. I've actually taken this same flight a couple of times. I can't even imagine what it would take for the wing to hit (well anything).


Agreed. Either something crazy happened or someone screwed up spectacularly.

In either case, I'm still unable to visualize how this could have occurred.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:08 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
sprxUSA wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The half span of a 737 is about 65’ and half width of the runway is 75’, so at least 10’ but there’s additional obstacle-free zone outboard.


Gf

It was an A321, so who cares about 737 dimensions?


Didn’t notice it was a A321, but the span is similar, so the sideline clearance would be similar.

GF

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:15 pm
by Siren
Simply going with my gut here: a guess as to what happened is possibly a wake turbulence encounter - they hit the wingtip vortices from the previous departure. Does anyone know what departed before them?

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 pm
by KAUST
Anyone have good images that might show better about where it lies? Google Earth didn’t show much anything...

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:04 am
by Boof02671
I have video of the damage it was sent to me in Facebook Messenger, can’t figure out how to save it.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:28 am
by atypical
Boof02671 wrote:
It would have to roll seriously for the wing tip to hit a sign, doesn’t seem possible. The wingtip is 12.43 feet off the ground and the top of the sharklet is an additional 7.97 feet off the ground.

https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... C-A321.pdf

Page 4 after the index.


Wing root is 12.43 feet, wingtip at base of sharklet is higher at rest. If the wing is in lift (which it was) the tip is flexing even higher from root. That was quite a roll to push the AC off the centerline with a dip on one side that cause a sign collision. Two things that I can think of that might cause it are:

1. An unfortunate wind gust like a rogue wave in the ocean.
2. Asymmetrical thrust at rotation which also might explain the pilots report to pax about computer issues.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:18 am
by prinxe1
Spacepope wrote:
Someone’s gonna have to take a pee test.


Lmao i was thinking the same thing

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:33 am
by prinxe1
Antarius wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
This is on the JFK NOTAM's :

!JFK 04/158 JFK RWY 31L 5000FT DIST REMAINING SIGN MISSING 1904110513-1905250200

Probably what they took out. :eyepopping:


Ok I just looked up what this sign looks like. How off center was this plane, and how did the wing end up down there?.

Something IS very off with this.

I've been on over 250 A320/321s. I've actually taken this same flight a couple of times. I can't even imagine what it would take for the wing to hit (well anything).


Agreed. Either something crazy happened or someone screwed up spectacularly.

In either case, I'm still unable to visualize how this could have occurred.


Totally agree!! There is more to this story and something missing here. We dont have a picture of what they hit and where was it postion at.
I think the situation being downplayed to avoid getting bad press but the pilots will have some serious explaining to do to hit a sign on 31L. That runway is14572ft long and 150ft wide its not like they were taking off in a A380. I dont think the wind situation was that bad but maybe I am wrong.

I work in an airport and seen decent amount of aircraft damage. The damage on that wing looks like damage when another plane clips another

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:24 am
by dampfnudel
Spacepope wrote:
Someone’s gonna have to take a pee test.

I would imagine that’s a given after past incidents with tipsy pilots. However, I have this feeling it’s something else this time.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:45 am
by impilot
https://youtu.be/Ca-0Bi2lZhg

ATC/flight aware track

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:56 am
by Boof02671
It hit the runway and signage I have a video of the damaged wing. It’s a lot more damaged than the picture. I can’t save it to post it it was sent to me in Facebook Messenger.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:04 am
by Boof02671
Ok I have the video saved anyone tell me how to post it without using a link to my iCloud?

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:04 am
by D L X
impilot wrote:
https://youtu.be/Ca-0Bi2lZhg

ATC/flight aware track

45 degree roll on rotation? Yikes!

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:33 am
by Boof02671
https://streamable.com/v7ur3

Hopefully this works, here is video of the damage.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:48 pm
by TWA302
Boof02671 wrote:
https://streamable.com/v7ur3

Hopefully this works, here is video of the damage.


Wow. Looks like they struck the surface and then hit the poles that are under the distance sign. Thanks for sharing

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:42 pm
by litz
On the ATC recordings, the crew reported a 45 degree bank at rotation.

that's pretty considerable ...

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:31 pm
by jupiter2
Av Herald has a story of an Aeromexico E175 dragging its wingtip while trying to get airborne from a couple of days ago. Has a video as well and it would most likely show you exactly what this AA flight did, with the exception of hitting the distance marker sign. Note there is a healthy crosswind associated with the AM flight, which you would think at least contributed to their situation.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:44 pm
by richierich
morrisond wrote:
Nice - CNN has a picture of the MAX on it's report of the incident. Even thought the MAX is grounded it's BOEING's fault an A321 hit something. I wouldn't be very happy if I was Boeing.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/11/us/ameri ... index.html


I think Boeing has plenty of other things to worry more than an incorrect stock photo used by CNN. At least they got the right airline!

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:59 pm
by pugman211
Boof02671 wrote:
https://streamable.com/v7ur3

Hopefully this works, here is video of the damage.


Wow! That is some damage. Great video and thanks for posting. From watching it, you have the burn mark on the sharklet itself. There is also a burn on the outboard aft edge of the aileron too. Then you have damage across L/E slat 5 too, all cosmetic damage, I.e, not massively structural. Will definitely need a new slat and sharklet, possibly an aileron change also??

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:03 pm
by Boof02671
Here’s the link to the accident article on Avherald.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c68c5a8&opt=0

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:04 pm
by Boof02671
pugman211 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
https://streamable.com/v7ur3

Hopefully this works, here is video of the damage.


Wow! That is some damage. Great video and thanks for posting. From watching it, you have the burn mark on the sharklet itself. There is also a burn on the outboard aft edge of the aileron too. Then you have damage across L/E slat 5 too, all cosmetic damage, I.e, not massively structural. Will definitely need a new slat and sharklet, possibly an aileron change also??

All depends on what they find, I’m in CLT, I’ll reach out to some JFK Mechanics and see. Might take a few days.

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:16 pm
by Revelation
Boof02671 wrote:
Here’s the link to the accident article on Avherald.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c68c5a8&opt=0

Fair use quote:

According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip.


Oy! That takeoff, along with the 45 degree roll reported above, had to be a real butt clencher for the pilots!

Re: AA300 JFK-LAX Hits object on takeoff!

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:31 pm
by ikolkyo
Revelation wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here’s the link to the accident article on Avherald.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c68c5a8&opt=0

Fair use quote:

According to information The Aviation Herald received on Apr 12th 2019 ground tracks reveal the aircraft was dragging its left wing tip for quite some distance on the ground, the ground tracks even suggest the aircraft came close to ground loop. The aircraft and left wing tip became airborne just ahead of the runway sign, the left wing tip impacted the sign, parts of which became embedded in the left wing tip. The wing also sustained according damage to its underside near the wingtip.


Oy! That takeoff, along with the 45 degree roll reported above, had to be a real butt clencher for the pilots!


I wonder what some the passengers were thinking, it seems to me the crew had no clue until someone in back told them.