Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
DENTK wrote:The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.
SESGDL wrote:DENTK wrote:The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
Jeremy
keesje wrote:A few months back I sat on DL M90, seat 38A.
I had installed DecibelX on my phone.
It said average 82.4dB on a 2 minute sample during cruise, measured on ear height.
It was a longer flight and it felt kind of loud.
Maybe because I sat in a corner & the V2500 fan was ~20 inch left of my left ear, dunno..
Lovely aircraft, still
lightsaber wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/
What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.
Lightsaber
SESGDL wrote:DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
lightsaber wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/
What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.
The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.
For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.
Lightsaber
MSPNWA wrote:Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.SESGDL wrote:DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
HaulSudson wrote:Well, it's 2019 after all.
Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.
MSPNWA wrote:Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.SESGDL wrote:DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
MSPNWA wrote:Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.SESGDL wrote:DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
SESGDL wrote:DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.
Jeremy
Revelation wrote:Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.
Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.
We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.
Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?
jagraham wrote:The problem with replacing the 717s are that they are 100 seaters. Important for scope with regard to the 76 seat RJs. And A321s and 739s are almost twice as big. So they aren't the replacements. The replacement is the A220, but first DL will add A220s to max out 76 seat scope. Then the 717s will gradually disappear. I vote for a 2024 start and a 2030 finish.
MSPNWA wrote:Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.SESGDL wrote:DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
1989worstyear wrote:Wouldn't the 752's and A320's go out at the same time? Their fleets are about the same age.
DaProf wrote:1989worstyear wrote:Wouldn't the 752's and A320's go out at the same time? Their fleets are about the same age.
The only problem with that is they will probably be replaced with more A320/1's
1989worstyear wrote:DaProf wrote:The only problem with that is they will probably be replaced with more A320/1's
Oh - I was just referring to the A320-200's.
At least the brand new A321 CEO's have the nice modernized interior with the larger bins and are quite nice to fly on - even if the engines and underlying systems are straight from the Hair Metal Era (1988)
SESGDL wrote:DENTK wrote:The t-tail operations at Delta have been sealed for years now, it's just that some are finally waking up to it.
When they decided *not* to install avionics upgrades in the cockpit, the writing was on the wall.
DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
Jeremy
noviorbis77 wrote:Such a shame.
The world of aviation will be boring with 737s and A320s.
Hopefully the 717s will last a while
Spacepope wrote:lightsaber wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/
What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.
Lightsaber
Now now, I've been told conclusively in A.net lore that all the MD-90s except a select few at BYH were just waiting on engine overhauls and are intended to go back into service, and that any suggestion they're done was malarkey.
Glad I got the chance to get a ride on one while I could.
HaulSudson wrote:Well, it's 2019 after all.
Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.
mga707 wrote:HaulSudson wrote:Well, it's 2019 after all.
Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.
I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...
Revelation wrote:lightsaber wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/
What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.
The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.
For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.
Lightsaber
Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.
Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.
We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.
Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?
Lufthansa wrote:
But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?
SteelChair wrote:As another poster referenced, the Anderson decision to purchase the 90s preserved capital at the time when Delta had little capital. Delta has made almost $30B since that time. The 90s have served their purpose by buying that time. The 88s are just plain worn out and also have limited engine parts availability (the engine issue isn't just the 90s). I continue to believe that both the 88s and 90s will be gone by the end of 2021, possibly sooner. Depends upon A321 and A220-300 delivery rates. I wonder how long the heavy 737-7s and A319s will last once the A220-300 shows up.
I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.
chotiwala wrote:I work at G4, and it was truly sad to see them go. They were the backbone of our fleet for a while, so it was pretty emotional for us.
Few things compare to the sound of those engines starting up, especially the distinctive "pop"!
SESGDL wrote:MSPNWA wrote:Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.SESGDL wrote:DL still has 91 717s which aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
I don't imagine the 717s will start to go until after the 88s/90s are completely gone, so I think it'll be at least 2022-2023 before the 717s start being retired in mass. I agree however that the 717s are next on the chopping block after the other T-tails, along with the oldest 320s and 757s. DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.
Jeremy
marcogr12 wrote:SteelChair wrote:I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.
True but couldnt the 717s be replaced with the lighter CRJ900ERs and CRJ1000s in the 100seat category ?
Oliver2020 wrote:Revelation wrote:lightsaber wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/
What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.
The end of major Douglas T-tail opperations is approaching. G4 already retired their MD-80 fleet. AA is steadily shrinking their once vast fleet. DL just quietly retires theirs a few at a time.
For many years JT8Ds payed my salary. Sad to see the end of an era.
Lightsaber
Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.
Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.
We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.
Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?
Yeah it was a bad decision to purchase 3 used md 90s for a total cost of approximately 30 million dollars including purchase price and refurbishment.
Cost of 1 - 737-900er or 1-A321 was between 42-45 million.
With that being said it was a good business decision to purchase the Md 90's as Delta has got their money's worth out of them.
The 772's those comments were to get a better price on a B787 or A350 ( Example: going to a car dealership and negotiating the best deal you can get )as he said later on the cost of refurbishing a widebody didn't result in the same economics as refurbishing a narrow body.
Lufthansa wrote:mga707 wrote:HaulSudson wrote:Well, it's 2019 after all.
Seems this belongs to a place and an era where people were still using paper cheques.
I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...
It is, and that is actually the correct spelling. It's Queens English. The only real English.
But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?
Oil is around mid $60s a barrel. MD-90s and A320s with V2500 engines operated fine at levels far
far higher than this. Obviously nothing can go on forever, but would much older 767s be a priority?
compensateme wrote:Oliver2020 wrote:Revelation wrote:Seems like many of the Anderson era strategic thrusts discussed with much chest pounding here on a.net either never happened or are now being slowly unwound.
Seems DL MRO is still a great asset, but their dependence on other shops to do rebuilds of various oddball engines seems to be the Achilles heel of the plan to keep flying retro-planes.
We never did see them ramp up vast fleets of 2nd hand 777s either.
Now, on with more factor fresh 737-900 and A321s, which in hindsight probably should have been the plan all along, but RA did enjoy his wind ups, didn't he?
Yeah it was a bad decision to purchase 3 used md 90s for a total cost of approximately 30 million dollars including purchase price and refurbishment.
Cost of 1 - 737-900er or 1-A321 was between 42-45 million.
With that being said it was a good business decision to purchase the Md 90's as Delta has got their money's worth out of them.
The 772's those comments were to get a better price on a B787 or A350 ( Example: going to a car dealership and negotiating the best deal you can get )as he said later on the cost of refurbishing a widebody didn't result in the same economics as refurbishing a narrow body.
In hindsight, it was a bad decision. When you consider the total program cost (including the entire frames DL acquired for parts, and higher-than-expected maintenance costs) and that the MD-90 averaged less than ten years service before being retired... it was absolutely a bust, and DL would’ve been far better off acquiring new aircraft. An old WSJ mentions that DL was expecting the type to survive “another 20 years.”
That said, in 2009 when the decision was made, nobody could’ve imagined the cash flows DL would be generating less than ten years later, or that the MD-90 faced higher-than-average maintainer costs. DL made the right decision at the time based upon the information it had.
lightsaber wrote:SESGDL wrote:MSPNWA wrote:Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.
The writing is on the wall for the 717s as well. If I had to put money down, I would bet they will start being retired either next year or the year after. Once the MD-88s and -90s are gone or nearly so, the 717s, 752s, and oldest A320s are likely next on the narrowbody side.
I don't imagine the 717s will start to go until after the 88s/90s are completely gone, so I think it'll be at least 2022-2023 before the 717s start being retired in mass. I agree however that the 717s are next on the chopping block after the other T-tails, along with the oldest 320s and 757s. DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.
Jeremy
I think the 717s will go after the MD-88s, but earlier than you think. The A220 and E2-195 are hungry for more orders. The 717s were leased when:
1. Available cheap (recall, WN subsidizes the leases).
2. New aircraft were pricey.
3. RR promised much longer overhaul intervals on the BR700. I doubt they were able to develop this PIP with all the other work.
I think the 717s could be gone by 2023.
Lightsaber
FSDan wrote:marcogr12 wrote:SteelChair wrote:I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.
True but couldnt the 717s be replaced with the lighter CRJ900ERs and CRJ1000s in the 100seat category ?
That would be a reversal of DL's strategy for the last few years, which has been to upgauge large RJ flights to mainline while using the freed-up large RJs to replace 50-seaters. They also might run into scope problems (fewer 717s = fewer large RJs allowed). I'd be surprised if they didn't replace the 717s with another mainline aircraft.
Dalmd88 wrote:Lufthansa wrote:mga707 wrote:
I just mailed a couple of checks (assume that's the same as a 'cheque') yesterday...
It is, and that is actually the correct spelling. It's Queens English. The only real English.
But back to the MD-90. I can't see it being such an issue with the engines the same as the
A320, and lots of other parts easily sourced from retired MD-80s. Is there something I'm missing here?
Oil is around mid $60s a barrel. MD-90s and A320s with V2500 engines operated fine at levels far
far higher than this. Obviously nothing can go on forever, but would much older 767s be a priority?
Only a couple of MRO shops in the world have the capability to rebuild the V2500 for the MD90. They basically don't even want the work now. They would rather work on other more profitable engines so the cost to overhaul has gone up dramatically in the last couple of years. DL could bring the work in house, but why? There is close to zero work to be brought in(contract work is the money cow), it is only for a short time frame and we just don't have the space(they are still trying to figure out were the GTF work will be done).