Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20280
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:17 pm

SESGDL wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
SESGDL wrote:

I don't imagine the 717s will start to go until after the 88s/90s are completely gone, so I think it'll be at least 2022-2023 before the 717s start being retired in mass. I agree however that the 717s are next on the chopping block after the other T-tails, along with the oldest 320s and 757s. DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.

Jeremy

I think the 717s will go after the MD-88s, but earlier than you think. The A220 and E2-195 are hungry for more orders. The 717s were leased when:
1. Available cheap (recall, WN subsidizes the leases).
2. New aircraft were pricey.
3. RR promised much longer overhaul intervals on the BR700. I doubt they were able to develop this PIP with all the other work.

I think the 717s could be gone by 2023.

Lightsaber


I would agree with that but see no way that DL could possibly take 150 A220s in 4 years, Bombardier simply can’t produce them that quick.

Jeremy

I believe that it is possible. Embraer could make a 100 E2 a year and would happily surge for a DL order. I assume deliveries in 2021 -2025... Yea, redoing the math, the 717 survives a little longer unless Embraer wins an order

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
oosnowrat
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:17 am

FSDan wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I'll agree with the poster who said the 717s would be in service awhile. If they can buy them cheaply when the lease ends, they will. They also have the agreement with RR which may extend to 717 engines. The 717 airplanes are still fairly young. The A220-100/CS100 is a very different airplane. Even with the lower engine rating, these airplanes have much more range capability than the 717s. And they are quite a bit heavier than a 717, more than 10,000 lbs OEW. Delta has many long thin routes that they want to serve and only 40 100s are coming in any event. Hard to replace 91 717s with 40 A220s, especially when most of the A220 flying is suctioned off for 1,400-1,600 nm routes like DFW/IAH-NYC and DFW/IAH-SEA. IMHO there is no clear replacement for the light, short range 717.

True but couldnt the 717s be replaced with the lighter CRJ900ERs and CRJ1000s in the 100seat category ?


That would be a reversal of DL's strategy for the last few years, which has been to upgauge large RJ flights to mainline while using the freed-up large RJs to replace 50-seaters. They also might run into scope problems (fewer 717s = fewer large RJs allowed). I'd be surprised if they didn't replace the 717s with another mainline aircraft.


I would think a CRJ1000 would be considered a mainline aircraft.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2135
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:35 am

CaptainWannabe wrote:
I hate to see 'em leave, but I love to watch 'em go.


That's one of the best quotes I've seen in a long time. :bigthumbsup:

I'm gonna use that one - hope there will be no copyright infringements! :D
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
citationjet
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:02 am

nws2002 wrote:
Agreed, I actually left G4 just about a month after the last MD-80. It was sad to see them go and the end of an era. I don't think a lot of the newer employees realize how important the MD-80 was to G4 and how they grew the airline.


I for one was glad to see G4 get rid of their MD-83 and -88s. Too many inflight shutdowns, cancelled flights with no reserve aircraft to take up the slack. The airline's reliability and on-time performance has greatly improved with the 319 and 320s. DL's MD-88s don't seem to have as many issues as G4 had with theirs.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773,788.
 
aerohottie
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:52 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:52 am

I've got a MD-90 flight booked for late May ATL-IAH that i'm looking forward to.
Is the MD-90 likely to still be operating this flight?
What?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:54 am

PC12Fan wrote:
CaptainWannabe wrote:
I hate to see 'em leave, but I love to watch 'em go.


That's one of the best quotes I've seen in a long time. :bigthumbsup:

I'm gonna use that one - hope there will be no copyright infringements! :D


That saying has been around longer than any of us have been alive.

There is nothing good about the MD-88/90/95 leaving.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:10 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Oliver2020 wrote:

Yeah it was a bad decision to purchase 3 used md 90s for a total cost of approximately 30 million dollars including purchase price and refurbishment.
Cost of 1 - 737-900er or 1-A321 was between 42-45 million.

With that being said it was a good business decision to purchase the Md 90's as Delta has got their money's worth out of them.

The 772's those comments were to get a better price on a B787 or A350 ( Example: going to a car dealership and negotiating the best deal you can get )as he said later on the cost of refurbishing a widebody didn't result in the same economics as refurbishing a narrow body.


In hindsight, it was a bad decision. When you consider the total program cost (including the entire frames DL acquired for parts, and higher-than-expected maintenance costs) and that the MD-90 averaged less than ten years service before being retired... it was absolutely a bust, and DL would’ve been far better off acquiring new aircraft. An old WSJ mentions that DL was expecting the type to survive “another 20 years.”

That said, in 2009 when the decision was made, nobody could’ve imagined the cash flows DL would be generating less than ten years later, or that the MD-90 faced higher-than-average maintainer costs. DL made the right decision at the time based upon the information it had.


We got them for almost nothing. It was a great decision for the situation. Free airplanes when the cash flow is low as a stop gap until we have boat loads of cash. We would have payed a huge finance debt on new airplanes right out of Chpt 11 and the merger. Same goes for the 717. We could park all the t tails tomorrow for scrap and we would still have made a ton of cash off of them.


The MD-90 were acquired for an estimated $5M - $9M each, with the “cheaper” aircraft used for parts/not entered into service. Toss in refurbishment, regulatory and preliminary maintenance costs... and well, it’s not exactly “next to nothing.” DL execs were quoted as saying the start-up costs would average 1/3 the cost per aircraft of a new build 320 or 738.

You bring up an excellent point that the low acquisition cost enabled DL to pay down its debt faster, which needs to be taken into consideration, but ultimately I suspect the ROI of these aircraft is poor compared to had DL opted for new build 320/738, especially given that the average service life will fall short of 10 years.

That said, it was the right decision at the time - nobody could’ve dreamed of the cash flows DL would be eventually be harvesting.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:27 am

DAL has options to purchase the aircraft off lease.

kbmiflyer wrote:
Does anyone know the lease arrangement on the 717's from Southwest? This will be the trigger for retirement. From what I have read, Delta got the 717 really cheap from Southwest, so I am guessing they are pretty profitable.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:31 am

The M90 purchase was right out of the NWA playbook for the DC-9's. And it did work. The plan was never to fly these things into the mid 2020's.

One thing to keep in mind...the flash-like sale prices DAL was given from Boeing for the 739ER and Airbus for the 321, both models sold at the end of their production for far less than what they would've cost in 2010-12 when the plan was made to go after the remaining M90 fleet. The ability to get 250+ new aircraft at significant discounts did cut a few years off the life of the M90 but that doesn't mean DL pissed $ away. It didn't.

compensateme wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

In hindsight, it was a bad decision. When you consider the total program cost (including the entire frames DL acquired for parts, and higher-than-expected maintenance costs) and that the MD-90 averaged less than ten years service before being retired... it was absolutely a bust, and DL would’ve been far better off acquiring new aircraft. An old WSJ mentions that DL was expecting the type to survive “another 20 years.”

That said, in 2009 when the decision was made, nobody could’ve imagined the cash flows DL would be generating less than ten years later, or that the MD-90 faced higher-than-average maintainer costs. DL made the right decision at the time based upon the information it had.


We got them for almost nothing. It was a great decision for the situation. Free airplanes when the cash flow is low as a stop gap until we have boat loads of cash. We would have payed a huge finance debt on new airplanes right out of Chpt 11 and the merger. Same goes for the 717. We could park all the t tails tomorrow for scrap and we would still have made a ton of cash off of them.


The MD-90 were acquired for an estimated $5M - $9M each, with the “cheaper” aircraft used for parts/not entered into service. Toss in refurbishment, regulatory and preliminary maintenance costs... and well, it’s not exactly “next to nothing.” DL execs were quoted as saying the start-up costs would average 1/3 the cost per aircraft of a new build 320 or 738.

You bring up an excellent point that the low acquisition cost enabled DL to pay down its debt faster, which needs to be taken into consideration, but ultimately I suspect the ROI of these aircraft is poor compared to had DL opted for new build 320/738, especially given that the average service life will fall short of 10 years.

That said, it was the right decision at the time - nobody could’ve dreamed of the cash flows DL would be eventually be harvesting.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:33 am

Maybe they think they can get a good deal on the 73M after the Lion Air and Garuda cancelations.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8152
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:00 am

Yeah I think as others have said, when the decision was made to acquire the second-hand MD-90s the situation was different.

The opportunistic buys and the price points of the 739, 321CEO, and C-Series have changed the life expectancies of both the MD-88 and MD-90 fleets.

At the time they acquired the MD-90s, didn't have enough ~150-180 seat narrowbodies for the combined DL+NW network.
DC-9s and older 757s were reaching end of life and they needed a stop-gap to add capacity quickly and cheaply.

I don't know all the dynamics, but one could argue why didn't they order the 739 a few years earlier?
The whole 739 situation at DL is an interesting story in itself, and has ties back to the NW 787 order and a lot can be read into the timing of that order itself.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:13 am

n7371f wrote:
The M90 purchase was right out of the NWA playbook for the DC-9's. And it did work. The plan was never to fly these things into the mid 2020's.

One thing to keep in mind...the flash-like sale prices DAL was given from Boeing for the 739ER and Airbus for the 321, both models sold at the end of their production for far less than what they would've cost in 2010-12 when the plan was made to go after the remaining M90 fleet. The ability to get 250+ new aircraft at significant discounts did cut a few years off the life of the M90 but that doesn't mean DL pissed $ away. It didn't.

compensateme wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:

We got them for almost nothing. It was a great decision for the situation. Free airplanes when the cash flow is low as a stop gap until we have boat loads of cash. We would have payed a huge finance debt on new airplanes right out of Chpt 11 and the merger. Same goes for the 717. We could park all the t tails tomorrow for scrap and we would still have made a ton of cash off of them.


The MD-90 were acquired for an estimated $5M - $9M each, with the “cheaper” aircraft used for parts/not entered into service. Toss in refurbishment, regulatory and preliminary maintenance costs... and well, it’s not exactly “next to nothing.” DL execs were quoted as saying the start-up costs would average 1/3 the cost per aircraft of a new build 320 or 738.

You bring up an excellent point that the low acquisition cost enabled DL to pay down its debt faster, which needs to be taken into consideration, but ultimately I suspect the ROI of these aircraft is poor compared to had DL opted for new build 320/738, especially given that the average service life will fall short of 10 years.

That said, it was the right decision at the time - nobody could’ve dreamed of the cash flows DL would be eventually be harvesting.


DL first discussed acquiring second hand aircraft in 2006, well before it entered merger talks with NW. and they definitely based their projections on a ~20 year lifespan, even going as far to say that they were projecting a $1B savings-less if R&M was higher than projected (it was) and lifespan shorter than projected (it was).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:16 am

DL uses the 717 extensively in SBN on Notre Dame Graduation and Football weekends as it is more adaptable to the lower jetbridges at Delta's Gates 5 and 6. I assume after these are gone they will use the A220-300. I forgot that the jetbridges will fit the 737-800 also. Now If they rebuild the ramp and replace the Delta jetbridges with the typw G4 uses at Gate 9 they could go back to using thwe Airbus A319/320's.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2855
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:55 am

I think Delta should be careful before letting some of the MD-90s go when you consider the current problems with some of the newer aircraft. Let's not forget what this MAX problem has resulted in without the benefit of spare aircraft to replace them especially for Southwest. The A220 is still brand new and maybe should be given more air time to determine if it's going to be a winner. Don't think I'm trying to be negative here just would hate to see Delta get too far out on the limb by discarding too many aircraft types at a time and getting caught. Just my 25 cents.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4712
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:08 am

777Mech wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-hastens-exit-of-mcdonnell-douglas-fleet-with-m-457377/

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.

Lightsaber


Now now, I've been told conclusively in A.net lore that all the MD-90s except a select few at BYH were just waiting on engine overhauls and are intended to go back into service, and that any suggestion they're done was malarkey.

Glad I got the chance to get a ride on one while I could.


It's not a lore, it's a fact. DL intended on returning them to service, hence why not a single -90 has been scrapped save the China ones as of yet, and the only parts robbed off of them except the TRs and engines. They had every intention of RTSing them.

I figured they would have lasted a little longer too after the Saudi fleet was flown over and parted out. But when months went by and none were returned to the fleet, it was pretty darn evident pretty darn early what the bean counters had decided.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
TW870
Posts: 1238
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:23 am

I am curious about how Anderson's team thought about maintaining the V2500-D5 in their original plan to grow the fleet up to 65+ birds. They knew they would own the vast majority of operational MD-90s in the world, and they did not plan to bring the overhauls in house. Did they assume that multiple vendors close to home would want that business? How and when did reality diverge from that assumption - especially to the point that we ended up with one shop in New Zealand? An orphan engine seems like it would set off red flags for long term maintenance costs, and I wonder how they wrote that risk into the original business plan.

Overall, I still think the used aircraft option was a smart idea. The technology curve has slowed down so fast, and the more muscle Delta has to leverage lower purchase prices for the 737 and 320 - neither of which are particularly ambitious aircraft in the grand scheme of things - the better.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:28 am

I've flown on 99 Douglas T-tails. Doesn't look like I'll make it to 100. Can't remember the last time I even saw one...
 
Max Q
Posts: 8506
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:08 am

If Delta’s 717 fleet is really going to be retired in the next few years that would seem to solve Hawaiian’s short haul replacement issue for years to come
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
w3gar
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:24 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:42 am

I flew on N945DN from ATL to ORD back in 2014. According to Flightaware, it seems like it is out of service. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N945DN
Crazy the fact that these MD90s will soon be fully retired once Delta gets rid of them.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1836
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:06 am

So what's your point?

compensateme wrote:
n7371f wrote:
The M90 purchase was right out of the NWA playbook for the DC-9's. And it did work. The plan was never to fly these things into the mid 2020's.

One thing to keep in mind...the flash-like sale prices DAL was given from Boeing for the 739ER and Airbus for the 321, both models sold at the end of their production for far less than what they would've cost in 2010-12 when the plan was made to go after the remaining M90 fleet. The ability to get 250+ new aircraft at significant discounts did cut a few years off the life of the M90 but that doesn't mean DL pissed $ away. It didn't.

compensateme wrote:

The MD-90 were acquired for an estimated $5M - $9M each, with the “cheaper” aircraft used for parts/not entered into service. Toss in refurbishment, regulatory and preliminary maintenance costs... and well, it’s not exactly “next to nothing.” DL execs were quoted as saying the start-up costs would average 1/3 the cost per aircraft of a new build 320 or 738.

You bring up an excellent point that the low acquisition cost enabled DL to pay down its debt faster, which needs to be taken into consideration, but ultimately I suspect the ROI of these aircraft is poor compared to had DL opted for new build 320/738, especially given that the average service life will fall short of 10 years.

That said, it was the right decision at the time - nobody could’ve dreamed of the cash flows DL would be eventually be harvesting.


DL first discussed acquiring second hand aircraft in 2006, well before it entered merger talks with NW. and they definitely based their projections on a ~20 year lifespan, even going as far to say that they were projecting a $1B savings-less if R&M was higher than projected (it was) and lifespan shorter than projected (it was).
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:22 am

n7371f wrote:
So what's your point?

compensateme wrote:
n7371f wrote:
The M90 purchase was right out of the NWA playbook for the DC-9's. And it did work. The plan was never to fly these things into the mid 2020's.

One thing to keep in mind...the flash-like sale prices DAL was given from Boeing for the 739ER and Airbus for the 321, both models sold at the end of their production for far less than what they would've cost in 2010-12 when the plan was made to go after the remaining M90 fleet. The ability to get 250+ new aircraft at significant discounts did cut a few years off the life of the M90 but that doesn't mean DL pissed $ away. It didn't.



DL first discussed acquiring second hand aircraft in 2006, well before it entered merger talks with NW. and they definitely based their projections on a ~20 year lifespan, even going as far to say that they were projecting a $1B savings-less if R&M was higher than projected (it was) and lifespan shorter than projected (it was).


Responding to the incorrect narrative you replied to me with. Of course, you can always discuss it at the golf course with Richard Anderson and Ed Bastian :).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
ScorpioMC3
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:52 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:26 am

Have you ever flown on an MD90 at night and during landing seen the sparks from the engines during reverse thrust? That's fun to watch.
 
md83ftw
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:11 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:12 am

lightsaber wrote:

What interests me is how quietly DL went from 65 MD-90 to 40. The engine MRO costs on the V2500D5 are certainly driving the decision.


I wasn't even aware they were winding down the fleet, such a shame to see these beautiful arrows go. I'm genuinely surprised, only a few years ago Delta's MD90 costs were comparable to their A320 fleet and lower than the 738s, see this (brilliant) US airline operating costs post from LAXintl in 2014:

LAXintl wrote:
For reference, the reported total block hour cost includes things like - aircraft ownership(lease/mortgage/financing), crew, insurance, taxes, direct maintenance, and long term maintenance accrual burdens(eg power by hour contracts).

LAXintl wrote:
Legend = Total block Hour Cost USD / Burn per hour gallons / Average stage length / CASM

- A320: DL - $4692 / 757 / 893 / 8.6

- 737-800: DL - $4879 / 794 / 1301 / 7.6

- MD-90: DL - $4690 / 778 / 771 / 8.3


Granted, the 90s were flying shorter stage lengths, but were nevertheless highly competitive it seems!
 
Chaostheory
Posts: 1156
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:09 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:26 am

FOD is the issue. The geometry of the wing and engine placement make the aircraft susceptible to it. IAE tried to take us to court for breach of contract when we said our engines were deteriorating much faster than expected. Nothing wrong with the V2500 in and of itself.
 
User avatar
N776AU
Posts: 1010
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:00 pm

PM wrote:
I've flown on 99 Douglas T-tails. Doesn't look like I'll make it to 100. Can't remember the last time I even saw one...

Come to Atlanta. It seems like every flight under 2 hours is on one.
Careful, doors are closing, and will not reopen. Please wait for the next train.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5286
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:53 pm

N776AU wrote:
PM wrote:
I've flown on 99 Douglas T-tails. Doesn't look like I'll make it to 100. Can't remember the last time I even saw one...

Come to Atlanta. It seems like every flight under 2 hours is on one.

There was a time I was in and out of ATL regularly. (Remember the SR-DL tie-up?) But that was twenty years ago. (More!)

Now, I'm seldom ever in the US. (The last time was five years ago.) But that's where almost all of the T-tails are now. Never been on a 717. I'd like to hit my 100 with one of those.

But I've ticked off DC-9-15, DC-9-31, MD-81, MD-82, MD-83, MD-87, MD-88 and MD-90. I shouldn't complain.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2574
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:28 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Easy to predict this move. Why DL is so reluctant to speak publicly about retirements I don't understand.

.


Oh, come on! It's obvious that they're afraid of A.netter's crazy reaction! That's why they're so secretive about T-tails retirements!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8270
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:34 pm

PM wrote:
I've flown on 99 Douglas T-tails. Doesn't look like I'll make it to 100. Can't remember the last time I even saw one...


Include the 717s and Delta alone still has more than 200 in service. If you're in the U.S. they're coast to coast - not at all hard to find. You can find them spread as far as SEA, PWM and MIA.

717s: https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B712

MD-88: https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/MD88

MD-90: https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/MD90
 
T773ER
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
DL already has enough aircraft on order to replace a good portion (nearly all A320s and 757s, MD-80s and MD-90s and roughly half of the 717s) of the narrowbody fleet.

Jeremy


Not really (without options - options aren't orders) when you recognize that they're also replacing ~60 CR2s by 2023 and need 2-4% seat growth annually. By 2025 they'll also need to have a plan for replacing the early 738s and the 777ERs. 2019 CapEx is already double 2014 levels - but still way, way below AA's peak of $7.3 Billion in 2016.


If you look at the Q&A section of the earnings call one of the reports asks about the MD-90 replacement.

Edward Russell:
"Paul you mentioned that Delta is accelerating the retirement of the MD-90s. Could you outline how – when does Delta plan to remove the MD-90 fleet?

Paul Jacobson:
"Well, what I mentioned in my comments is that we’re considering that we expect to make that announcement in the quarter at which point we can provide more details on exact timing, replacement, etcetera."

Jacobson implies that they will make an announcement sometime in the 2nd quarter shedding more light on the retirements and their replacements...
 
USAirKid
Posts: 665
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:59 pm

kbmiflyer wrote:
Does anyone know the lease arrangement on the 717's from Southwest? This will be the trigger for retirement. From what I have read, Delta got the 717 really cheap from Southwest, so I am guessing they are pretty profitable.


I looked this up a year or two ago. The 717s that DL are subleasing from WN are/were owned by Boeing Capital. When DL agreed to sublease the 717s there was also an agreement with Boeing. In short, how it worked is as the WN lease with Boeing expired, DL had the ability (or maybe obligation) to then lease that same 717 from Boeing. I wouldn’t be surprised if DL also has a right to purchase the 717s that they don’t already own from Boeing. (Some of the 717s were owned by WN and those were sold to DL.) The bottom line is the 717s are staying in DL’s fleet as long as they want them.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:37 pm

w3gar wrote:
I flew on N945DN from ATL to ORD back in 2014. According to Flightaware, it seems like it is out of service. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N945DN
Crazy the fact that these MD90s will soon be fully retired once Delta gets rid of them.

Looks like the last flight was 2/14/2019 and has been at BYH since. Is that a scrapping facility?
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:45 pm

compensateme wrote:
n7371f wrote:
So what's your point?

compensateme wrote:

DL first discussed acquiring second hand aircraft in 2006, well before it entered merger talks with NW. and they definitely based their projections on a ~20 year lifespan, even going as far to say that they were projecting a $1B savings-less if R&M was higher than projected (it was) and lifespan shorter than projected (it was).


Responding to the incorrect narrative you replied to me with. Of course, you can always discuss it at the golf course with Richard Anderson and Ed Bastian :).


Get a tee time at a South Florida golf course, where Ed's luxury condo is, but be sure to give 3 days notice. Richard has to take the train. :lol:
Last edited by SteelChair on Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8152
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Based on the credible posting here, regarding 717 leases:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p20207999

The expiration dates on DL's leases of these aircraft currently run from 2025 to 2031. .

At the time of the sublease transaction with WN in 2012, the remaining lease terms were between 6 and 12 years. So the subleases to DL were coextensive with the terms of the leases from Boeing Capital to WN. However, DL then made an agreement with Boeing Capital that at the conclusion of each of the existing leases from Boeing Capital to Southwest, DL would directly lease each one from Boeing Capital for an additional 7 years.

---
Everyone is conflating MD88, MD90, and 717 situations in this thread.

MD-88s are going at ~1 week, down to ~40 by end of 2019, completely gone by end of 2020. This is set in stone based on the fact that they are not doing any more heavy maintenance, aircraft are approaching maintenance cycle limits, and the parts supply chain is dwindling.

MD-90s have essentially been a flex capacity fleet in the past few years, and with the engine overhaul costs, now DL is evaluating their end-game for the MD-90 fleet. There has never really ever been a timeframe for the MD-90s ever officially communicated other than high-level "15-20 year" when they inducted all the second-hand frames and/or what people deduced based on the cycle limits and longevity of the DC-9/MD-80 airframes.

From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20280
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:03 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Based on the credible posting here, regarding 717 leases:
viewtopic.php?t=1387667#p20207999

The expiration dates on DL's leases of these aircraft currently run from 2025 to 2031. .

At the time of the sublease transaction with WN in 2012, the remaining lease terms were between 6 and 12 years. So the subleases to DL were coextensive with the terms of the leases from Boeing Capital to WN. However, DL then made an agreement with Boeing Capital that at the conclusion of each of the existing leases from Boeing Capital to Southwest, DL would directly lease each one from Boeing Capital for an additional 7 years.

---
Everyone is conflating MD88, MD90, and 717 situations in this thread.

MD-88s are going at ~1 week, down to ~40 by end of 2019, completely gone by end of 2020. This is set in stone based on the fact that they are not doing any more heavy maintenance, aircraft are approaching maintenance cycle limits, and the parts supply chain is dwindling.

MD-90s have essentially been a flex capacity fleet in the past few years, and with the engine overhaul costs, now DL is evaluating their end-game for the MD-90 fleet. There has never really ever been a timeframe for the MD-90s ever officially communicated other than high-level "15-20 year" when they inducted all the second-hand frames and/or what people deduced based on the cycle limits and longevity of the DC-9/MD-80 airframes.

From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".

Nice find on the 717 leases. So they will be around for a while.

DL might have standard wording, but that doesn't change they save money replacing older types.

Right now, for the A220 or MAX, the advantage is with the buyer. I'm not saying the NEO won't bid, bit until production is further increased, I doubt slots will be available when DL wants them.

The ND-90 fleet has been drawn down to a barely sustainable size. It is time to stop performing heavy C/D checks and retire the fleet. That just requires enough replacement aircraft.

So DL will negotiate. Perhaps buy used aircraft. Once the MAXs are flying again (they will soon as in within 6 months, probably earlier), the value of used NGs and CEOs will reset down. So DL can pick their strategy, influenced by aircraft pricing.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3150
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:08 pm

compensateme wrote:

DL first discussed acquiring second hand aircraft in 2006, well before it entered merger talks with NW. and they definitely based their projections on a ~20 year lifespan, even going as far to say that they were projecting a $1B savings-less if R&M was higher than projected (it was) and lifespan shorter than projected (it was).

Actually it was thought of from earlier than that. The internal rumor was what to do about the MD90 and the MD11 fleets? Either dump them or go buy every last one. With the down turn of the economy the MD90 fleet decision was put on the back burner while the MD11 exited the property. I think the China acquired aircraft were parked in the 2003-2004 range.
 
rj777
Posts: 1807
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:28 pm

Maybe this is why my Flight on 9/7 from MKE-ATL was switched from an MD-90 to a 739
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
So DL will negotiate. Perhaps buy used aircraft. Once the MAXs are flying again (they will soon as in within 6 months, probably earlier), the value of used NGs and CEOs will reset down. So DL can pick their strategy, influenced by aircraft pricing.


While DL may announce their draw down strategy for the MD90 in 2Q, I don't expect them to make an announcement for additional used planes, in the 737NG or A32x CEO class until after the MAXs are flying again, for the simple reason that the the MAX groundings are creating short term changes in the used aircraft market, and the optimal strategy won't be evident until the system returns to a new steady-state condition, which may take some time after the MAX's resume flying.

DL could add smaller frames (most likely additional A220-300 with roughly 30 fewer passengers), but new MAX, NEO, or NMA won't be available to support an accelerated retirement schedule.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8270
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:37 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".


DING DING DING DING DING!

Like lightsaber, I expect there's an incremental order coming soon. I don't see production capacity near-term on A220s. My bet is MAX8s, as not all MD-88/MD-90/A320 capacity will be replaced by 192-seat 321s/NEOs nor ~130-seat A220-300s.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2159
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:50 pm

They can still park the 717s at any time, they can always buy out the lease.
 
okie73
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".


DING DING DING DING DING!

Like lightsaber, I expect there's an incremental order coming soon. I don't see production capacity near-term on A220s. My bet is MAX8s, as not all MD-88/MD-90/A320 capacity will be replaced by 192-seat 321s/NEOs nor ~130-seat A220-300s.


I don’t think you will see any airline announcing orders for a 737 max until there is a solid fix and the airplane has been flying again for a period of time. From a public relations standpoint, it would not be well received right now.
 
highflier92660
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:16 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:45 pm

My next Delta MD88 flight will be from ATL to CLE. I guess this means I'll go from complaining about the howling noise and lack of IFE to waxing nostalgic about the Mad Dog's final days.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2412
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:46 pm

okie73 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".


DING DING DING DING DING!

Like lightsaber, I expect there's an incremental order coming soon. I don't see production capacity near-term on A220s. My bet is MAX8s, as not all MD-88/MD-90/A320 capacity will be replaced by 192-seat 321s/NEOs nor ~130-seat A220-300s.


I don’t think you will see any airline announcing orders for a 737 max until there is a solid fix and the airplane has been flying again for a period of time. From a public relations standpoint, it would not be well received right now.


True, but sounds like they are close to a fix as they are testing it now. You can bet Boeing would give a great deal to DL for near-term slots if DL announced contemporaneously (or close) to the fix - it would be a real show of confidence. Boeing also probably has significant slots coming available with Jet Airways alone (who knows what Lion Air will do, and whatever is happening with Norwegian delays).
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:51 pm

compensateme wrote:
You bring up an excellent point that the low acquisition cost enabled DL to pay down its debt faster, which needs to be taken into consideration, but ultimately I suspect the ROI of these aircraft is poor compared to had DL opted for new build 320/738, especially given that the average service life will fall short of 10 years.


I agree with the ROI part. I'm off the opinion that the MD-90s worked out if new aircraft were not available in time to reap the rewards of high margins when the MD-90s were first coming online. The capacity from those -90s were likely making good money.

If that's not the case though, and new aircraft would have been available soon enough to cover planned capacity, the MD-90s were likely a big mistake. I see a narrow window where the MD-90s were a good idea. It wasn't hard to see the risk at the time of buying an inefficient, orphan fleet. So although hindsight is 20/20, it wasn't like this was impossible to see coming. I thought it was the opposite, and it was.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 20280
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".


DING DING DING DING DING!

Like lightsaber, I expect there's an incremental order coming soon. I don't see production capacity near-term on A220s. My bet is MAX8s, as not all MD-88/MD-90/A320 capacity will be replaced by 192-seat 321s/NEOs nor ~130-seat A220-300s.

My quote on A220s was 2+ years out for delivery 2021+. I would be shocked if Airbus couldn't produce a few more. Embraer could make E2-195s for certain. Pratt just needs 2 years heads up for engines.

I too bet on MAX8s, possibly 9s too. Boeing needs a big order in 2019...

To others:

Do not let your nervousness interfere with good business logic. DL bought end of line 739s and A321CEOs for the value proposition. They would happily buy MAXes, for the right price.

They always have the option of used aircraft. For 717 replacement, the A319s are going cheap. It will be a spreadsheet analysis deciding. DL really cannot lose. They could wait until the MAX is flying again... It is about the opportunity to make a good long term deal.

As to others noting the MD-90 was a limited window of opportunity, I agree. By keeping debt low, DL lowered borrowing costs to help set them up for their excellent credit today. As long as a plane is used 5+ years of a heavy maintenance interval, DL wins. I suspect that is what is happening with MD-90s. Aircraft needing more maintenance will become parts donors. I expect the 2q announcement to be an end to MD-90 c-checks (perhaps after current contracts lapse).

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
From what I read based on the quotes from the earnings call, its sounds like Delta is looking to make another order announcement probably in Q2 and they will weave in the typical narrative "The order for ### of XXX plane will be used to replace older, less efficient aircraft including older model MD-90, regional jets (they always like to put that one in every press release), and <insert any older model fleet type of choice> that will be XX% more fuel efficient and be on a capacity neautral with some opportunity for measured future increase"

They always put in a statement like that to appease Wall St who hates large use of CAPEX / reinvestment in the business and loves "capacity discipline".


DING DING DING DING DING!

Like lightsaber, I expect there's an incremental order coming soon. I don't see production capacity near-term on A220s. My bet is MAX8s, as not all MD-88/MD-90/A320 capacity will be replaced by 192-seat 321s/NEOs nor ~130-seat A220-300s.

My quote on A220s was 2+ years out for delivery 2021+. I would be shocked if Airbus couldn't produce a few more. Embraer could make E2-195s for certain. Pratt just needs 2 years heads up for engines.

I too bet on MAX8s, possibly 9s too. Boeing needs a big order in 2019...

To others:

Do not let your nervousness interfere with good business logic. DL bought end of line 739s and A321CEOs for the value proposition. They would happily buy MAXes, for the right price.

They always have the option of used aircraft. For 717 replacement, the A319s are going cheap. It will be a spreadsheet analysis deciding. DL really cannot lose. They could wait until the MAX is flying again... It is about the opportunity to make a good long term deal.

As to others noting the MD-90 was a limited window of opportunity, I agree. By keeping debt low, DL lowered borrowing costs to help set them up for their excellent credit today. As long as a plane is used 5+ years of a heavy maintenance interval, DL wins. I suspect that is what is happening with MD-90s. Aircraft needing more maintenance will become parts donors. I expect the 2q announcement to be an end to MD-90 c-checks (perhaps after current contracts lapse).

Lightsaber


Except that making money isn’t good enough - DL needs to maximize its profits, especially in this era (which may prove to be the golden age of airline profitability).

While DL was pursing second hand MD-90, it was also negotiating a large order (for what turned out to be 100 739) to replace older 757, 763... and the remaining (42 IIRC) early build 320. Several years later DL opted to modify and keep the 320, and phase out its recently acquired MD-90. That itself is a red flag.

I guarantee you that through the years, DL’s discussed and investigated the variances between the projected and actual costs of the MD-90, specifically R&M. Execs will have wanted to know why the finance people couldn’t have foreseen such cost, given the orphan status of the type. Companies do this as part of their continuous improvement processes, so that they learn from their mistakes going forward.

That said, I believe that the MD-90 decision was fully justified given the information available at the time... but it doesn’t mean that the decision hasn’t been revisited.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:08 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
compensateme wrote:
You bring up an excellent point that the low acquisition cost enabled DL to pay down its debt faster, which needs to be taken into consideration, but ultimately I suspect the ROI of these aircraft is poor compared to had DL opted for new build 320/738, especially given that the average service life will fall short of 10 years.


I agree with the ROI part. I'm off the opinion that the MD-90s worked out if new aircraft were not available in time to reap the rewards of high margins when the MD-90s were first coming online. The capacity from those -90s were likely making good money.

If that's not the case though, and new aircraft would have been available soon enough to cover planned capacity, the MD-90s were likely a big mistake. I see a narrow window where the MD-90s were a good idea. It wasn't hard to see the risk at the time of buying an inefficient, orphan fleet. So although hindsight is 20/20, it wasn't like this was impossible to see coming. I thought it was the opposite, and it was.


I don’t believe availability was an issue at the time; Boeing or Airbus could’ve delivered aircraft to DL as fast as DL put the MD-90 into service. Not to mention how quickly DL dumped the DC-9 and 757 after the merger, motivated in part by the large number of RJ made available with the downsizing of CVG.

But I agree, even if it seemed like the right decision at the time, some DL managers’ lives were pretty miserable as they justified parking some MD-90 just five years later because they didn’t foresee the R&M spike from the orphan type.
Last edited by compensateme on Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8152
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:11 pm

Honest question - did the MD-90 build-up have any synergies and/or help the overall program costs for operating the MD-88 fleet?
Secondly, when the the C-Series / A220 even start to become a serious contender?
When was the decision actually made to start acquiring used MD-90s?
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:20 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Honest question - did the MD-90 build-up have any synergies and/or help the overall program costs for operating the MD-88 fleet?


I doubt there were any material cost savings, and they’d be far outweighed by the fact that the MD-90 came with unique costs.

Secondly, when the the C-Series / A220 even start to become a serious contender?


It didn’t become a serious contender until Bombardier’s infamous discount pricing. Up until that point, DL May have been interested in the type but was intent on building up a fleet of second hand E90/E95.

When was the decision actually made to start acquiring used MD-90s?


As DALMD88 pointed out, DL discussed either expanding or retiring the MD-90 fleet circa early 2000s. The first formal comment came during its bankruptcy, when DL said it was pursuing used aircraft and was evaluating MD-80, MD-90 and 757 options. First formal comments about going forward with the MD-90 were in 2009.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:39 pm

We all know the MDs and 717s are loud as crap when sitting in between the two engines, but is it just me, or isn't it super quiet towards the front? I've always thought of them as a quiet ride as long as you're near the front. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I always thought of a 737 as louder than the front part of an MD/717
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

Re: Delta looking into accelerating MD-90 retirement

Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:28 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
We all know the MDs and 717s are loud as crap when sitting in between the two engines, but is it just me, or isn't it super quiet towards the front? I've always thought of them as a quiet ride as long as you're near the front. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I always thought of a 737 as louder than the front part of an MD/717


Quietest is mid-ship. I ride First now, and once they accelerate above 10,000, First is noisier than the Airbi and Boeings.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos