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Eindhoven
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BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:33 pm

BA has been looking to start EIN-LHR, but has been denied permission.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... r-mag-niet

EIN airport CEO Joost Meijs has revealed that BA has approached the airport for a service to LON, but had to be put on the waiting list due to lack of available slots at EIN. For a twice daily service they'd need about 1500 flight movements per year, but there is no room for that.

Last year FR closed their EIN base, but still continues to fly to EIN. This includes a 3x daily EIN-STN flight which BA would be competing against if they'd get permission. The closure of the FR base didn't free up enough slots, besided these slots have already been divided.

For the economy of the airport and the region a network carrier like BA would be very much welcome, therefor it hurts to have to say no. Meijs is hoping the airport gets permission to grow so they can welcome BA.

In September Meijs is leaving EIN to become CEO of AUA airport. It is yet unknown who will become the next CEO of EIN.
 
jubaexpress
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:27 pm

That would have been very welcome. A shame nobody can be more accommodating. But at least the interest is there.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:50 pm

That Aruba job sounds very nice, perhaps he can get an office on the beach. :cloudnine:
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CRJ900
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:58 pm

Is EIN a big untapped destination for BA? Lots of O&D both ways?
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TC957
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:15 pm

Philips Electronics and lots of other business traffic. Surprised BA have taken this long to want to fly there.
 
8herveg
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:19 pm

I obviously don’t understand how slots work. As EIN has around 5m pax per year using one runway. But LGW has 46m passengers per year using one runway. So how can it not have enough slots? Can someone explain?

Thanks
 
jakubz
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:30 pm

8herveg wrote:
I obviously don’t understand how slots work. As EIN has around 5m pax per year using one runway. But LGW has 46m passengers per year using one runway. So how can it not have enough slots? Can someone explain?

Thanks


While I can't speak to the specifics of these two airports, a smaller runway might result in smaller aircraft being able to use the airport. Additionally, there maybe differences in ATC spacing requirements at these airports. Also, the runway itself is only one part of the equation. If one airport has more gates, more aircraft can be deboarded, serviced, and boarded at the same time. And maybe there is parallel taxiway at the smaller airport, which means that aircraft take more time taxiing along the runway before takeoff and/or after landing.

These were just the things I thought of off the top of my head.
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DiscoverCSG
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:30 pm

It does seem ironic that between EIN and LHR the airport where slots were unavailable would be EIN.
 
FlyingHollander
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:37 pm

Not trying to nitpick, but the Luchtvaartnieuws.nl article says BA was denied permission for a London flight and the EIN director says a LHR would be a great addition. However, it does not unambiguously say BA was denied EIN-LHR, it could just of well have been EIN-LCY (or any other LON airport for that matter). RTM for example has no service to LHR, but quite frequent service to LCY.
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jubaexpress
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:44 pm

8herveg wrote:
I obviously don’t understand how slots work. As EIN has around 5m pax per year using one runway. But LGW has 46m passengers per year using one runway. So how can it not have enough slots? Can someone explain?

Thanks

Eindhoven is also a military airport, so perhaps they have the lion's share? Not sure. Other thing could be heavily limited for environmental or noise reasons.
 
jubaexpress
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:49 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
Is EIN a big untapped destination for BA? Lots of O&D both ways?


Well London is hardly a small place. However more critically there is no other connecting carrier there. For that you go to DUS, BRU or AMS. Which is a trek. There's a lot of untapped connections currently leaking out to other airports.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:44 pm

jubaexpress wrote:
Other thing could be heavily limited for environmental or noise reasons.


That's exactly the reason. Just like in most of Europe airport capacity is never maxed out, there is always a gap between the technical capacity and the allowed capacity. At some airports this gap is bigger than at others.

Nonetheless Eindhoven is one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. From only a hand full of flights a few decades ago to the 80th busiest airport in Europe last year according to Wikipedia. Obviously a lot of people living in the area aren't too happy about that, they used to live relatively quiet and now it's getting busier and busier.

CRJ900 wrote:
Is EIN a big untapped destination for BA? Lots of O&D both ways?


It sure is, given that Ryanair flies Eindhoven - London Stansted 3 times daily. That's the only connection to London from the region. But the British Airways flights won't all be about O/D traffic for which a lot of people will remain using Ryanair. The benefit of British Airways are the connections. Currently Eindhoven is unserved by any network carrier, the three main airlines at Eindhoven are Ryanair, Wizzair and Transavia. All LCCs without any connections to long haul flights.

But also, it's an overflow of Amsterdam where growth isn't possible. A lot of foreign carriers are seeking to grow in Amsterdam, but they can't. There are no slots available in Amsterdam, so the only way they can grow is by using larger aircraft. Now it seems airlines are looking beyond the borders of Amsterdam to grow in the Netherlands. Eindhoven seems an obvious choice for that, only it faces the same problems as Amsterdam. No available slots.
 
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:49 pm

Could BA find a good niche in Rotterdam?
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jubaexpress
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:55 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Could BA find a good niche in Rotterdam?


They used to fly LHR to RTM but now just to City. Rotterdam is a bit tougher because it's so close to Schiphol though very international. Eindhoven is that bit further and also serves the southern Netherlands which is untapped.
 
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:56 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Could BA find a good niche in Rotterdam?


They already fly there as British Airways CityFlyer to London City, however not to Heathrow or Gatwick. Therefor these flights are useless for traffic connecting in London.
 
jubaexpress
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:16 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Could BA find a good niche in Rotterdam?


They already fly there as British Airways CityFlyer to London City, however not to Heathrow or Gatwick. Therefor these flights are useless for traffic connecting in London.

Not useless, there are still connections. Just more limited.
 
SCQ83
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:48 am

BA flew LHR-RTM for a while.

Maybe they are trying EIN because of slot restrictions in AMS?
 
32andBelow
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:14 am

Airports in Europe need to chill on the slots. You don’t need slots in these tiny cities
 
k25
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:20 am

What happened to the slots IAG held from the days VY flew BCN-EIN?
 
anstar
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 am

k25 wrote:
What happened to the slots IAG held from the days VY flew BCN-EIN?


Probably lost. You don;'t keep slots if you aren't using them.
 
Andy33
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:25 am

32andBelow wrote:
Airports in Europe need to chill on the slots. You don’t need slots in these tiny cities


It's not the airport managements, they'd probably like departures every few minutes throughout the 24 hours. It's the communities surrounding the airports who object to noise, pollution, traffic congestion etc. Now you may well think this is hypocritical, but it exists. It isn't unknown in the USA either. Thing is that as and when the airport management wants to lengthen runways, rebuild terminals etc etc they need to seek the consent of local government, and local government tends to want to get re-elected so responds to voter agitation by refusing consent or setting conditions.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:27 am

my real question, is why would the airport management not consider reducing slots from the existing LCC's in order to gain a valuable connection to a network/long haul carrier like BA @ London? Would that not be desirable for their local clientele?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:48 am

FlyHappy wrote:
my real question, is why would the airport management not consider reducing slots from the existing LCC's in order to gain a valuable connection to a network/long haul carrier like BA @ London? Would that not be desirable for their local clientele?


Of course if that were possible they would have done that, but that's not the way it works.

Slots that are in use by an airline cannot be taken away from that airline, that's against the law. There is a whole legal system in how slots are divided but basically it comes down to whoever gets the slots first gets to keep them. In this case the LCCs were first, British Airways came later.

Only when an airline voluntarily returns it's slots, those slots are being redistributed to the airlines on the waiting list. That's where British Airways currently is. Just waiting for an airline to return it's slots. I don't see that happening on short term.
 
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:55 am

FlyHappy wrote:
my real question, is why would the airport management not consider reducing slots from the existing LCC's in order to gain a valuable connection to a network/long haul carrier like BA @ London? Would that not be desirable for their local clientele?

So discriminate against the LCCs purely because they’re LCCs? That’d go down well
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Dutchy
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:00 pm

eicvd wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
my real question, is why would the airport management not consider reducing slots from the existing LCC's in order to gain a valuable connection to a network/long haul carrier like BA @ London? Would that not be desirable for their local clientele?

So discriminate against the LCCs purely because they’re LCCs? That’d go down well



Perhaps because LCC deliver less connectivity to the airport/city? I think that is a vey good reason to do so. EIN could use a netwerk carrier, BA or TK would be prime candidates, with secondary Finnair and Iberia.
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LJ
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:06 pm

[quote="PatrickZ80"Only when an airline voluntarily returns it's slots, those slots are being redistributed to the airlines on the waiting list. That's where British Airways currently is. Just waiting for an airline to return it's slots. I don't see that happening on short term.[/quote]

Ryanair said it would reduce flying when it moved its base out of EIN. However, they haven't done it (yet). BA will be high on the waiting list as new airlines have priority over airlines wanting to expand their presence.
 
Blerg
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:13 pm

Could they maybe try Maastricht? Or is it too close to Brussels? Maastricht is some 88 km from Eindhoven.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:18 pm

Blerg wrote:
Could they maybe try Maastricht? Or is it too close to Brussels? Maastricht is some 88 km from Eindhoven.


They could, but why would they? Brussels and Amsterdam aren't that much further.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:25 pm

LJ wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Only when an airline voluntarily returns it's slots, those slots are being redistributed to the airlines on the waiting list. That's where British Airways currently is. Just waiting for an airline to return it's slots. I don't see that happening on short term.


Ryanair said it would reduce flying when it moved its base out of EIN. However, they haven't done it (yet). BA will be high on the waiting list as new airlines have priority over airlines wanting to expand their presence.


They did reduce the number of flights a little when they pulled out, but most of their routes remain active. They're just flown "from the other end". I believe only two destinations were terminated.

This resulted in Ryanair returning a few slots to the airport, which were immediately redistributed. Most of them went to Wizzair and Transavia, but a few of them also went to TUIfly Netherlands and Pobeda. At that moment British Airways wasn't yet on the waiting list. Ryanair isn't shrinking their presence in Eindhoven any further.

Blerg wrote:
Could they maybe try Maastricht? Or is it too close to Brussels? Maastricht is some 88 km from Eindhoven.


That wouldn't work as Maastricht doesn't have the clientele that Eindhoven has. It's a given fact that most of the catchment area of Eindhoven airport lies north of the airport while Maastricht lies south of it. That would mean people have to drive past Eindhoven to get to Maastricht.

Many airlines have attempted Maastricht in the past, none of them lasted. It just doesn't work. You bet British Airways knows this too.
 
JibberJim
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Perhaps because LCC deliver less connectivity to the airport/city? I think that is a vey good reason to do so. EIN could use a netwerk carrier, BA or TK would be prime candidates, with secondary Finnair and Iberia.


Adding LHR doesn't add an awful lot of 1 change connectivity, there's not many places from LHR that are not also available from AMS, okay it's a train to AMS rather than a plane, but the time is similar and without the high UK air taxes always cheaper (perhaps not always, but I can't imagine many scenarios, certainly not with BA). The train also of course is both noise and emissions friendlier to the local community.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:00 pm

eicvd wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
my real question, is why would the airport management not consider reducing slots from the existing LCC's in order to gain a valuable connection to a network/long haul carrier like BA @ London? Would that not be desirable for their local clientele?

So discriminate against the LCCs purely because they’re LCCs? That’d go down well


Not because they are LCCs, but it would be reasonable and pro-competitive to have a slot policy that is biased toward new entrants. Most countries award route authorities that way and many have similar regimes with slots.
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XAM2175
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:13 pm

JibberJim wrote:
without the high UK air taxes always cheaper


I can't speak for all UK taxes, but the one that usually attracts the most complaint (the Air Passenger Duty) is not levied on passengers connecting to destinations outside the UK.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:48 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
my real question, is why would the airport management not consider reducing slots from the existing LCC's in order to gain a valuable connection to a network/long haul carrier like BA @ London? Would that not be desirable for their local clientele?


Of course if that were possible they would have done that, but that's not the way it works.

Slots that are in use by an airline cannot be taken away from that airline, that's against the law. There is a whole legal system in how slots are divided but basically it comes down to whoever gets the slots first gets to keep them. In this case the LCCs were first, British Airways came later.

Only when an airline voluntarily returns it's slots, those slots are being redistributed to the airlines on the waiting list. That's where British Airways currently is. Just waiting for an airline to return it's slots. I don't see that happening on short term.


I assume by "law" you mean IATA agreements, that kind of thing - and not specific Dutch/EU law?. I had to research it a bit to educate myself even a little. I note that these issues appear to be far more of an issue in Europe than elsewhere, presumably due to strong localized caps on airport traffic.
I've always been bothered by the incumbency rules on slots at the big obvious airports (LHR being the oh-so-obvious example), and the barrier to entry for small and new players, but this is the first time I've really processed its impact on someplace like EIN; and this firms my opinion: slot rules can be anti-consumer and need reform.

eicvd wrote:
So discriminate against the LCCs purely because they’re LCCs? That’d go down well


Not in the least.
I used LCC simply to shorthand denote Ryan, Wiz, Trans. It has nothing to do with the a classist LCC vs FSC attitude, but the idea that Airport mgmt might choose to more broadly serve the local area by taking advantage of interest by a network carrier who can provide long haul service IN COMPETITION to KLM . In fact, if not for the incumbency rules, carving out room from the KLM to AMS shuttles would be fine, too ;)

I did a few quick searches, and seems to me that if you're based in the EIN region and/or find it much more convenient than AMS, your entire universe of 1 stop options to major world destinations is completely restricted to KLM via AMS. I like KLM, and I suspect they are not greatly abusing a captive market (mostly because ground transport to AMS/BRU/DUS is practical) - but it cannot be denied that the KLM benefits by being the sole 1 stop option to the greater world, and thus consumer choices are more limited.
 
mutu
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:15 pm

It is interesting that despite what many think LHR continues to welcome new carriers and find slots for more frequencies for smaller players. It's not easy but look at how big the ME3 have got and just how quickly China carriers are establishing themselves and increasing frequencies.

It's not perfect but it is not a fortress just yet.
 
JibberJim
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:23 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
JibberJim wrote:
without the high UK air taxes always cheaper


I can't speak for all UK taxes, but the one that usually attracts the most complaint (the Air Passenger Duty) is not levied on passengers connecting to destinations outside the UK.


Sorry, you're right of course (except for UK destinations, but then I think AMS covers more UK airports than LHR anyway. The cost of a train ticket to AMS is still likely cheaper than the LHR fare.
 
mdavies06
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:12 am

BA itself has no spare slots. Some would propose that a few short haul routes are run with too much frequencies but fact is they are delivering good profit and even more frequencies are required. A couple of sun routes seem redundant at first sight but most of them are run only on weekends and are not relevant to the frequencies required on EIN which will be a business route requiring flights on all days. Most new carriers in LHR have to find slot in the evening hours where demand is lower. Having to work with another severely slot constrained airport at EIN will likely mean additional constraint for BA to start the route. However, obviously BA have thought of all this and they will cut back existing frequencies on another profitable flights if and when they do launch EIN, but any new flights will come from cut back from other flights not any new slots created from nowhere.

EIN-LHR should have existed years ago had it not been the result of NIMBY working at both airports.

Separately, regarding comparison between trains (AMS) and planes (LHR), saving from a train fare will potentially be offset by higher O&D fares ex-AMS on an O&D flight.
 
Cunard
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:04 am

mdavies06

EIN-LHR did exist years ago with NLM Cityhopper but the route was stopped in the early nineties. NLM at the time also flew from EIN and MST to LGW.

There was a thread not long ago here on a net with many suggesting that British Airways would never show an interest in Eindhoven with myself amongst others implieing otherwise. With this recent news that British Airways have shown an interest in flying from LHR to EIN I think those that doubted it have been proven wrong.

FYI British Airways do have slots available at LHR but there aren't many available for short haul, they are using approximately 97.3% of their total slot portfolio at LHR currently!

Despite the slots issue at EIN and at LHR for that matter but I honestly believe that British Airways will in one way or another be serving EIN from LHR within the next couple of years if not sooner!
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SCQ83
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:03 am

Cunard wrote:
There was a thread not long ago here on a net with many suggesting that British Airways would never show an interest in Eindhoven with myself amongst others implieing otherwise. With this recent news that British Airways have shown an interest in flying from LHR to EIN I think those that doubted it have been proven wrong.


We don't even know if it was LHR. It was the OP who implied that. It could easily be LGW or LCY.

BA already serves AMS and RTM from LCY, so it could be a possibility.

BA recently announced LGW-BGY which is an interesting route. BGY is another "Ryan/Wizzair airport". Now BA will serve LCY-LIN, LHR-MXP and LGW-BGY. So they could replicate the system in the NL: LCY-RTM/AMS, LHR-AMS and LGW-EIN.
 
Cunard
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:22 am

If British Airways wanted to fly to Eindhoven from London it would be from LHR for obvious reasons but considering that they already fly to both AMS and RTM from LCY that London airport could also be a possibility but in no way would British Airways start LGW-EIN.

Your comparison to BGY isn't a good one in my opinion!

FYI LGW-BGY is actually a service resumption as British Airways previously flew the route.

Milan is a huge market and BGY, LIN and MXP all serve different areas of what is a large conurbation.

MXP is situated 31.5 miles (50.7km) to the west from Milan city centre.
BGY is situated 32 miles (51.5km) to the east from Milan city centre.
LIN is situated 5.5 miles (8.9km) to the south east from Milan city centre.
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SCQ83
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:33 am

Cunard wrote:
If British Airways wanted to fly to Eindhoven from London it would be from LHR for obvious reasons but considering that they already fly to both AMS and RTM from LCY that London airport could also be a possibility but in no way would British Airways start LGW-EIN.

Your comparison to BGY isn't a good one in my opinion!


Why not? Otherwise why would they launch LGW-BGY? BA is increasingly moving LGW into more urban/business markets (e.g. LGW-BIO).

If Ryanair flies STN-EIN three daily there is an important O&D to London from EIN. Maybe they just want to tap that market that would pay a premium to fly BA/LGW instead of FR/STN. Exactly the same case as in BGY.
 
Toinou
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:26 am

jubaexpress wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
Is EIN a big untapped destination for BA? Lots of O&D both ways?


Well London is hardly a small place. However more critically there is no other connecting carrier there. For that you go to DUS, BRU or AMS. Which is a trek. There's a lot of untapped connections currently leaking out to other airports.


I have troubles to understand how it is "a trek" to go to AMS (1.5 hour, no change, train every 20 min) or BRU (2 hours, one change, at least once an hour).
I am not denying BA sould increase the connectivity in southern Netherlands but the present situation is not exactly that bad it seems to me when you realise how well connected this region is if you include ground transport.
 
LJ
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:04 am

FlyHappy wrote:
I've always been bothered by the incumbency rules on slots at the big obvious airports (LHR being the oh-so-obvious example), and the barrier to entry for small and new players, but this is the first time I've really processed its impact on someplace like EIN; and this firms my opinion: slot rules can be anti-consumer and need reform.


The slot rules do not protect airlines as slots which become available will go to a new entrant instead of an airline already serving EIN (or AMS). BA would have gotten the slots Ryanair let go. However, they didn't apply when they became available. Moreover, you cannot expect that a slot controller takes away slots as it would mean that any airline cannot be certain it can offer the same service to its clients than the year or season before.

Cunard wrote:
EIN-LHR did exist years ago with NLM Cityhopper but the route was stopped in the early nineties. NLM at the time also flew from EIN and MST to LGW.


EIN - LHR was flown by BASE Regional Airlines as well and was later on a franchise partner of BA. I don't recall that NLM flew EIN - LGW, but I do recall that BASE flew EIN-RTM-LGW at one point.
 
SCQ83
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:25 am

Another route BA recently started from LGW is Cologne, while BA flies from LCY and LHR to nearby DUS.

Cologne is also a heavily dominated low-cost market (the other connections to London are Eurowings to LHR/STN and Ryanair to STN) but with its own catchment area which is distinctive from DUS. I see a similar relation with Amsterdam/Eindhoven. There is a local market in Eindhoven that will be happy to fly non-stop from EIN to London and now that crowd has only Ryanair 3 daily.

BA might not bother to serve EIN from LHR for connections with a twice daily flight (you got AMS up the road for that), but maybe they want to give the local traffic a try, and that is where LGW plays a role.
 
SCQ83
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:39 am

For instance for this coming week (Good Friday).

On Friday 19:

3 daily Ryanair EIN-STN: 1 sold out, the other two cheapest at 243 EUR
easyJet AMS-LON: cheapest STN at 125 EUR, cheapest SEN at 109 EUR, cheapest LTN at 126 EUR, cheapest LGW at 117 EUR
BA AMS-LON: cheapest LCY at 213 EUR, LGW at 228 EUR and LHR at 228 EUR

This is just one day, but it is interesting to note that is more expensive to fly Ryanair on Eindhoven-Stansted than BA Cityflyer on Amsterdam-London City. easyJet in the same day has plenty of much cheaper options from Amsterdam to LON at any time of the day than Ryanair from EIN.

FR has a monopoly on Eindhoven-LON while there is plenty of competition in Amsterdam-LON.
 
Cunard
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:47 am

LJ

NLM started LGW flights in 1975 from EIN and MST, by 1991 they had ceased operating to LGW, it was flown 10 times weekly Monday to Friday with a morning and early evening flight, It routed MST-EIN-LGW.

Here is the schedule ex EIN for summer 1983

NLM HN833 EIN 07.35 LGW 08.00 F27 daily ex SAT, SUN
NLM HN837 EIN 17.45 LGW 18 10 F27 daily ex SAT, SUN

BASE Regional Airlines were not a franchise partner of British Airways.

BASE Regional Airlines inaugurated EIN-LGW in 1996, British Airways were operating their own LGW-RTM service in 1996 with British Airways City Flyer using ATR42.

Here is the schedule ex EIN for BASE Regional Airlines in 1996.

5E463 EIN 07.35 LGW 07.55 SH6 Daily ex Sat, Sun
5E465 EIN 17.35 LGW 17.55 SH6 Daily ex Sat, Sun
5E467 EIN 17.35 LGW 17.55 J31 .............. Sun only

During this period Air Exel Netherlands was operating MST-STN, Air Exel would later become a partner of KLM and continue their flights to STN until 2003.

Here is the schedule for Air Exel ex MST for 1996.

XT101 MST 07.25 STN 07.35 EM2 Daily ex Sun
XT103 MST 14.50 STN 15.00 EM2 Daily ex Sat, Sun
XT105 MST 17.55 STN 18.05 EM2 Daily ex Sat
Last edited by Cunard on Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David_itl
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:23 am

Cunard wrote:
BASE Regional Airlines were not a franchise partner of British Airways



March 1999:

"Base Airlines of Holland became the airline's 10th franchise partner and would offer services between Eindhoven and Heathrow, Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester and Zurich."

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/information/about-ba/history-and-heritage/explore-our-past/1990-1999
 
Cunard
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:52 am

As much as I like to think that I'm a know it all (being a Leo) and I like to think that I'm correct 99.99% of the time I stand corrected and I don't mind putting my hands up if I'm wrong and on this occasion I'm putting my hands up :-)

One slight error on my part I have to say!

Now I wasn't aware that BASE Regional Airlines were actually a franchise partner of British Airways and I personally wasn't aware that any of their aircraft were painted in British Airways livery, I do appreciate your link and doing a quick search online I noticed that a couple of BASE Regional Airlines J31's were repainted.

The old saying goes you learn something everyday but that doesn't reflect on anything else I have written in my previous post's as it's all correct, my only error was discounting BASE Regional Airlines being a British Airways franchise partner!

So BASE Regional Airlines became a franchise partner of British Airways in March 1999 and we're bankrupt by April 2001, being a franchise partner obviously didn't do them any good!
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jubaexpress
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:17 am

Toinou wrote:
jubaexpress wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
Is EIN a big untapped destination for BA? Lots of O&D both ways?


Well London is hardly a small place. However more critically there is no other connecting carrier there. For that you go to DUS, BRU or AMS. Which is a trek. There's a lot of untapped connections currently leaking out to other airports.


I have troubles to understand how it is "a trek" to go to AMS (1.5 hour, no change, train every 20 min) or BRU (2 hours, one change, at least once an hour).
I am not denying BA sould increase the connectivity in southern Netherlands but the present situation is not exactly that bad it seems to me when you realise how well connected this region is if you include ground transport.


Well, As somebody who used to travel internationally for work from the southern Netherlands and still travels there at least 6 times a year for business let me give me an actual perspective. Eindhoven is 1 hour 20 from Maastricht station to the airport. Schiphol is 3 hours. So double the time and when coming off a long haul it's not easy on the train. Brussels is inconvenient as the connection is incredibly unreliable. I have left 4 hours before the flight for a 1 hour 40 minute journey and almost missed the flight even with status and priority due to NMBS. DUS is a long slow journey. It's not just about Eindhoven.
 
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keesje
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:20 pm

This sounds suspicious / protective to be honest. However they organized it. Eindhoven is traditionally the R&D / industrial mainport of the Netherlands. Companies like Philips, DAF and ASML and their supply chain reside there and a large auto motive supply chain. Many big KLM accounts.. connecting directly to the BA/AA Americas network from LHR is a serious threath to KLM/Delta.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
FlyHappy
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Re: BA denied permission to start EIN-LHR

Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:30 pm

LJ wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
I've always been bothered by the incumbency rules on slots at the big obvious airports (LHR being the oh-so-obvious example), and the barrier to entry for small and new players, but this is the first time I've really processed its impact on someplace like EIN; and this firms my opinion: slot rules can be anti-consumer and need reform.


The slot rules do not protect airlines as slots which become available will go to a new entrant instead of an airline already serving EIN (or AMS). BA would have gotten the slots Ryanair let go. However, they didn't apply when they became available. Moreover, you cannot expect that a slot controller takes away slots as it would mean that any airline cannot be certain it can offer the same service to its clients than the year or season before.


Airlines are most certainly protected under current rules, and none more so than those who hold near- monopolistic positions.
Maybe you know better, but I'm under the impression that Ryan closed their base, but did not actually reduce flying, thus did not return any slots.
If you are saying that slots *have* been returned - then who got them?

My quick count for tomorrows departures at EIN show Ryan/Transavia/Wizz with 28, 19, 9 respectively. Nearly nothing else happening. The only London services are 3x on Ryan. I was mistaken in my prior belief that KLM has EIN-AMS service... its looks those flight numbers really refer to ground bus service (!).

Things are even worse than I suspected. EIN looks to be capped at around 48 departures per day, with over 58% allocated to Ryan , the rest to Transavia and Wizz.

And as far as slots being "taken away" ? Sure, eventually, all things can happen. Slots get taken away for under utilization (that's obvious), and markets, civil conditions change. The idea of "re-balancing" the services available at an airport should not be something held so sacred. EIN is clearly crying out for it. IATA rules/guidelines/laws are not serving the public well, in this instance.

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