Deltabravo1123
Topic Author
Posts: 256
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Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:06 pm

Hi all -

I've known for a while that Piedmont flies to Boston from Harrisburg, Rochester, and Syracuse. I didn't think much of it, but today I started wondering why these routes are still served. They must be money-makers if they haven't been cut (I'm assuming at least). When did these flights start? Were there other point-to-point routes flown by Piedmont from BOS that were previously cut?

My best guess is that these were started when US had a focus city in BOS. But why did these flights continue when all others ended?

Any input is appreciated! Thanks.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:48 pm

It’s important to remember that US was much more p2p much later than many of the rest of the “Big 6.” In addition to the BOS, LGA, and arguably DCA flying, RDU-CHS/GSP operated into the 2000s and some BDL-upstate New York flying lasted until 2009 or 2010. There was also all sorts of weird ZV flying in the middle of the country that carried the US code in the 2000s, though I think some or all of that may have been at risk.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
aaflyer777
Posts: 257
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:56 pm

These were legacy US routes that AA took over after the merger, US also flew BOS-BUF and BOS-PIT but AA cut those last year. AA kept these eagle routes because up until recently no one else was flying them. As soon as DL jumps on BOS-SYR/ROC AA will probably pull the plug on the rest of the Eagle flights at BOS
 
FSDan
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:08 pm

I'm surprised these have held on as long as they have, but as you said, they must not be loss making yet if AA's still flying them. B6 recently started BOS-ROC (and they also have been flying BOS-SYR for a little while now), so at this point BOS-MDT is the only one of these markets that AA has truly to themselves. On BOS-PIT and BOS-BUF, AA proved that they would blink first against competition from B6 and DL. DL also is starting up RDU-PIT this summer (which is the other remaining Eagle P2P flight), so we'll see if AA decides to pull the plug on P2P routes entirely in the near future. Given their overall history in P2P routes, I would expect that they will.
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HPAEAA
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:11 pm

LAA & LUS used to be much larger at Boston both operating significant express operations throughout the NE, East coast & Midwest. As others have mentioned these are the last of the LUS non hub routes at BOS, if DL ever announces service, they'll likely pull out.
1.4mm and counting...
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:26 am

Piedmont only has one daily flight left to Boston out of Syracuse while Rochester has 3x daily. So I’d expect Syracuse to go first if any. And that Syracuse flight is at 8:45pm, kind of a bad time unless your going international.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:42 am

We use to fly BOS-FRA, but they moved it back to CLT.
 
tphuang
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:58 am

FSDan wrote:
I'm surprised these have held on as long as they have, but as you said, they must not be loss making yet if AA's still flying them. B6 recently started BOS-ROC (and they also have been flying BOS-SYR for a little while now), so at this point BOS-MDT is the only one of these markets that AA has truly to themselves. On BOS-PIT and BOS-BUF, AA proved that they would blink first against competition from B6 and DL. DL also is starting up RDU-PIT this summer (which is the other remaining Eagle P2P flight), so we'll see if AA decides to pull the plug on P2P routes entirely in the near future. Given their overall history in P2P routes, I would expect that they will.


AA has been loosing money on BOS-SYR since B6 entered last year. But they were probably doing well on MDT/ROC to make up for it. I'd imagine if they cut, it will all 3 routes at the same time. I think that's going to happen soon.

And no, DL will not enter BOS-ROC/SYR as some have suggested. That would be insanity. These routes simply can't support more than 1 carrier.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:02 am

While the 8:45 flight out of SYR is good if international, if the flight is on time (which it never is) it doesn’t get to BOS until about 9:30pm and MOST of the connections for Europe have already left. Going back to ontime performance, the flight is constantly delayed and being one of Americans only remaining E-jet service out of BOS, it’s usually the first to get cancelled when weather hits. Being a p2p route with no connection means that it’s usually very expensive to fly as well.

It would be great for DL to begin it once daily (early departure, late arrival) and they have the connections to make profitable, the issue with that is that DL has run out of RON gate space at SYR, so I could see a 8am departure work well.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
Boof02671
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:16 am

tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
I'm surprised these have held on as long as they have, but as you said, they must not be loss making yet if AA's still flying them. B6 recently started BOS-ROC (and they also have been flying BOS-SYR for a little while now), so at this point BOS-MDT is the only one of these markets that AA has truly to themselves. On BOS-PIT and BOS-BUF, AA proved that they would blink first against competition from B6 and DL. DL also is starting up RDU-PIT this summer (which is the other remaining Eagle P2P flight), so we'll see if AA decides to pull the plug on P2P routes entirely in the near future. Given their overall history in P2P routes, I would expect that they will.


AA has been loosing money on BOS-SYR since B6 entered last year. But they were probably doing well on MDT/ROC to make up for it. I'd imagine if they cut, it will all 3 routes at the same time. I think that's going to happen soon.

And no, DL will not enter BOS-ROC/SYR as some have suggested. That would be insanity. These routes simply can't support more than 1 carrier.

Where is the facts to back up AA is losing money on BOS-SYR? If they were they would stop flying it.
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:34 am

Does the AA SYR-BOS exist still because of politics? Is it one of those political routes that only exist because Schumer wanted it?
 
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jaybird
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:38 am

Those BOS/BDL/PVD-upstate NY and PA routes originated with Mohawk and Allegheny .. memories of 111s/227s/DC9s/580s .. :-)
 
EADSYABSOB73857
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 am

tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
I'm surprised these have held on as long as they have, but as you said, they must not be loss making yet if AA's still flying them. B6 recently started BOS-ROC (and they also have been flying BOS-SYR for a little while now), so at this point BOS-MDT is the only one of these markets that AA has truly to themselves. On BOS-PIT and BOS-BUF, AA proved that they would blink first against competition from B6 and DL. DL also is starting up RDU-PIT this summer (which is the other remaining Eagle P2P flight), so we'll see if AA decides to pull the plug on P2P routes entirely in the near future. Given their overall history in P2P routes, I would expect that they will.


AA has been loosing money on BOS-SYR since B6 entered last year. But they were probably doing well on MDT/ROC to make up for it. I'd imagine if they cut, it will all 3 routes at the same time. I think that's going to happen soon.

And no, DL will not enter BOS-ROC/SYR as some have suggested. That would be insanity. These routes simply can't support more than 1 carrier.


Could AA continue to be running this as the flight times between AA and B6 greatly differ? I feel like B6 has more stimulated the market than steal share given the greatly differing times of the flight schedules. Since B6 started this flight what has happened to AA’s yield?

And I respectfully disagree about DL adding... DL has a lot of power to add even 1-2x daily flights in order to: 1) feed their vast international network out of BOS and 2) as a way to pressure B6.
 
tphuang
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:53 am

Boof02671 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
I'm surprised these have held on as long as they have, but as you said, they must not be loss making yet if AA's still flying them. B6 recently started BOS-ROC (and they also have been flying BOS-SYR for a little while now), so at this point BOS-MDT is the only one of these markets that AA has truly to themselves. On BOS-PIT and BOS-BUF, AA proved that they would blink first against competition from B6 and DL. DL also is starting up RDU-PIT this summer (which is the other remaining Eagle P2P flight), so we'll see if AA decides to pull the plug on P2P routes entirely in the near future. Given their overall history in P2P routes, I would expect that they will.


AA has been loosing money on BOS-SYR since B6 entered last year. But they were probably doing well on MDT/ROC to make up for it. I'd imagine if they cut, it will all 3 routes at the same time. I think that's going to happen soon.

And no, DL will not enter BOS-ROC/SYR as some have suggested. That would be insanity. These routes simply can't support more than 1 carrier.

Where is the facts to back up AA is losing money on BOS-SYR? If they were they would stop flying it.

I've been looking at yield data out of BOS for a while.

Could AA continue to be running this as the flight times between AA and B6 greatly differ? I feel like B6 has more stimulated the market than steal share given the greatly differing times of the flight schedules. Since B6 started this flight what has happened to AA’s yield?

And I respectfully disagree about DL adding... DL has a lot of power to add even 1-2x daily flights in order to: 1) feed their vast international network out of BOS and 2) as a way to pressure B6.

BOS-SYR is a seriously under performing route in B6 network. They more than tripled the capacity on this route when they entered the market. The entire BOS to upstate new york is a real low yielding market right now. BOS-BUF was easily DL's worst performing route out of BOS in Q4, quite possibly their entire network.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:09 am

Post the data
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 473
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:18 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
Does the AA SYR-BOS exist still because of politics? Is it one of those political routes that only exist because Schumer wanted it?


Nope, the SYR-BOS on B6 is because of politics and Schumer. B6 and Schumer have close ties that go back to the early 2000’s when he got the new airline the slots the needed in NYC. Another reason for SYR flight very late in, very early out is because B6 is running out of slot space at BOS and SYR is a place to keep one of their planes while also being able to earn some revenue on the route. Schumer could care less about AA.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
e38
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:43 am

Quoting SyracuseAvGeek (Reply #16), "Schumer could care less about AA."

This statement implies that Schumer cares a great deal about AA.

I think what you probably meant to say was "Schumer couldn't care less about AA." Am I correct?

e38
 
IADCA
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:02 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Post the data


When someone tried to post very short messages, the forum software used to spit out an automated warning about low quality posts. Perhaps that warning should have included a reminder about punctuation and basic manners.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 473
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:23 am

e38 wrote:
Quoting SyracuseAvGeek (Reply #16), "Schumer could care less about AA."

This statement implies that Schumer cares a great deal about AA.

I think what you probably meant to say was "Schumer couldn't care less about AA." Am I correct?

e38


Your right, I didn’t catch that.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:50 am

EADSYABSOB73857 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
FSDan wrote:
I'm surprised these have held on as long as they have, but as you said, they must not be loss making yet if AA's still flying them. B6 recently started BOS-ROC (and they also have been flying BOS-SYR for a little while now), so at this point BOS-MDT is the only one of these markets that AA has truly to themselves. On BOS-PIT and BOS-BUF, AA proved that they would blink first against competition from B6 and DL. DL also is starting up RDU-PIT this summer (which is the other remaining Eagle P2P flight), so we'll see if AA decides to pull the plug on P2P routes entirely in the near future. Given their overall history in P2P routes, I would expect that they will.


AA has been loosing money on BOS-SYR since B6 entered last year. But they were probably doing well on MDT/ROC to make up for it. I'd imagine if they cut, it will all 3 routes at the same time. I think that's going to happen soon.

And no, DL will not enter BOS-ROC/SYR as some have suggested. That would be insanity. These routes simply can't support more than 1 carrier.


Could AA continue to be running this as the flight times between AA and B6 greatly differ? I feel like B6 has more stimulated the market than steal share given the greatly differing times of the flight schedules. Since B6 started this flight what has happened to AA’s yield?

And I respectfully disagree about DL adding... DL has a lot of power to add even 1-2x daily flights in order to: 1) feed their vast international network out of BOS and 2) as a way to pressure B6.
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:33 am

IADCA wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Post the data


When someone tried to post very short messages, the forum software used to spit out an automated warning about low quality posts. Perhaps that warning should have included a reminder about punctuation and basic manners.

Wow, really?
 
ROCDLFAN
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:45 am

From the data someone posted in the B6 network there’s a few days ago, the early load returns are showing ROC as a success early on. Granted the yield data isn’t in yet, but still a good sign for a January launch to be pulling an 80% L/F both ways. Curious to see how AA is being impacted. We’re 4 months in and they’re still running 3 flights a day so I’m assuming that’s an indication one direction or another.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."
 
tphuang
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:16 am

btw, Q4 data. I think B6 will have an easier time on ROC simply because there seems to be more demand. They are only close to doubling the capacity on that route, whereas SYR capacity was 250% higher after they entered. Big difference.

Q4 yield here. MQ is AAE. You can see that BOS-ROC for AA is 41% higher than BOS-SYR, which itself is twice what DL gets on BOS-BUF. And this was a good quarter for AA on BOS-SYR in the past year. Remember, 44 seater cost is really high

CityPair Dist Carrier BoardAvgFareNSFare ConnFare % NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSBUF 395 B6 56043 129.15 129.1 148.52 99.74% 100.5 812 68.68% 88.67
BOSBUF 395 YX 17533 111.39 109.93 174.23 97.74% 70.3 416 59.98% 65.94
BOSSYR 265 B6 11270 112.00 109.09 168.98 95.13% 100.3 182 61.75% 67.37
BOSSYR 265 MQ 4262 164.89 163.4 297.21 98.89% 44.0 124 78.12% 127.64
BOSROC 343 MQ 13366 242.11 241.06 315.76 98.60% 44.0 407 74.64% 179.92
 
bridge29
Posts: 86
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:01 pm

tphuang wrote:
btw, Q4 data. I think B6 will have an easier time on ROC simply because there seems to be more demand. They are only close to doubling the capacity on that route, whereas SYR capacity was 250% higher after they entered. Big difference.

Q4 yield here. MQ is AAE. You can see that BOS-ROC for AA is 41% higher than BOS-SYR, which itself is twice what DL gets on BOS-BUF. And this was a good quarter for AA on BOS-SYR in the past year. Remember, 44 seater cost is really high

CityPair Dist Carrier BoardAvgFareNSFare ConnFare % NS PerFlight # Flights LF Yield
BOSBUF 395 B6 56043 129.15 129.1 148.52 99.74% 100.5 812 68.68% 88.67
BOSBUF 395 YX 17533 111.39 109.93 174.23 97.74% 70.3 416 59.98% 65.94
BOSSYR 265 B6 11270 112.00 109.09 168.98 95.13% 100.3 182 61.75% 67.37
BOSSYR 265 MQ 4262 164.89 163.4 297.21 98.89% 44.0 124 78.12% 127.64
BOSROC 343 MQ 13366 242.11 241.06 315.76 98.60% 44.0 407 74.64% 179.92



Can you pull BOS-MDT? I know it's only one carrier, but really curious if this route is actually high yielding. It's kind of the "most" P2P route in the AA system.
 
tphuang
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:17 pm

Yes, here is BOS-MDT. I had trouble getting it to work. You can see that it actually has the highest fares of all these markets due to lack of competition.
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight Departures LF Yield
BOSMDT 335 AA 3580 326.16 304.67 384.07 72.93% 50.00 130 55.08% 167.8
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:35 pm

At those fares BOS-MDT is def making money. They are not going to cut that unless something changes that makes them.
 
bridge29
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:45 pm

Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
Yes, here is BOS-MDT. I had trouble getting it to work. You can see that it actually has the highest fares of all these markets due to lack of competition.
CityPair Dist Carrier Board AvgFare NSFare ConnFare% NS PerFlight Departures LF Yield
BOSMDT 335 AA 3580 326.16 304.67 384.07 72.93% 50.00 130 55.08% 167.8


Thanks! Horrible load factors but high yielding. MDT is a Piedmont base which helps in terms of reliability. The plane would otherwise just sit at MDT and instead does a quick run to BOS and back. I can't see Delta or B6 ever picking this up if AA drops it, though. The E190 is too much plane.
 
uconn99
Posts: 369
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Re: Piedmont Service: MDT/ROC/SYR - BOS

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:51 am

Cubsrule wrote:
It’s important to remember that US was much more p2p much later than many of the rest of the “Big 6.” In addition to the BOS, LGA, and arguably DCA flying, RDU-CHS/GSP operated into the 2000s and some BDL-upstate New York flying lasted until 2009 or 2010. There was also all sorts of weird ZV flying in the middle of the country that carried the US code in the 2000s, though I think some or all of that may have been at risk.


I remember US flying B1900's from BDL to BUF, ROC, SYR, and possibly ELM from the late 90's to early 2000's. I also vaguely remember BDL-ALB at some point in the late 90's early 2000's but that may have been Shuttle America when its HQ was at BDL.

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