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enilria
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Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:56 pm

Decide for yourself. I did note that it said that rebuilding the existing landside costs about the same as the new building...that ignores the demolition cost which I suspect is significant.

The proposed schedule to abandon the landside building and link its operations to airside is unrealistic;

• Existing conditions “will compromise any scheme and result in complicated, awkward passenger and vehicular circulation;”

• The proposed road system lacks reality in part because of the grades involved and the deep foundations and amount of fill needed.

“These truths make the $1.1 billion budget suspect, unrealistic, and a high risk facing uncontrolled costs,” he wrote.

One of Mr. Katselas’ biggest concerns involves new roads that will have to be built to connect to the new landside building, which will be about half a mile from the existing one.

The architect said the new entry road will need to rise as much as 40 to 50 feet above existing landside building grades, with the exit road descending by the same number of feet.

Because of that, “The new entry and exit roads to/from the new terminal will require large earth fills, in combination with long and high new bridge structures.”



https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 1904140068
 
JHwk
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:41 am

He must not have seen LAX’s plans for T9...
 
strangeplanes
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:24 am

enilria wrote:
Decide for yourself. I did note that it said that rebuilding the existing landside costs about the same as the new building...that ignores the demolition cost which I suspect is significant.

The proposed schedule to abandon the landside building and link its operations to airside is unrealistic;

• Existing conditions “will compromise any scheme and result in complicated, awkward passenger and vehicular circulation;”

• The proposed road system lacks reality in part because of the grades involved and the deep foundations and amount of fill needed.

“These truths make the $1.1 billion budget suspect, unrealistic, and a high risk facing uncontrolled costs,” he wrote.

One of Mr. Katselas’ biggest concerns involves new roads that will have to be built to connect to the new landside building, which will be about half a mile from the existing one.

The architect said the new entry road will need to rise as much as 40 to 50 feet above existing landside building grades, with the exit road descending by the same number of feet.

Because of that, “The new entry and exit roads to/from the new terminal will require large earth fills, in combination with long and high new bridge structures.”



https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 1904140068


The renderings as proposed would realistically be in the $1.9 Billion+ range. There is not a doubt in my mind that there won't be a significant amount of value engineering at PIT.
 
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enilria
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:15 pm

enilria wrote:
Decide for yourself. I did note that it said that rebuilding the existing landside costs about the same as the new building...that ignores the demolition cost which I suspect is significant.

Another interesting point is the road ways. If the architect is correct about the roadways they will cost a lot of money, so even if the terminal work was the same price, once you put in the roads and demolition the new build option would be a lot more expensive. I haven't been through PIT in quite a while so I'm not in a position to say whether this was needed or not. Any locals?
 
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DeltaL1011Flyer
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 pm

I think the current design functioned exceptionally well as a hub, but speaking as a local - waiting time for luggage is exceptionally long due to the distance from airside to landside, security is frequently cramped and crowded, and amenities are scarce landside, even though there is an abundance of unused space in the ticketing level...landside COULD be reconfigured to utilize the space where it’s needed, but it wouldn’t be an easy or inexpensive fix, and at the end of the day, it would still be the the same cold, outdated building that hasn’t aged well.
 
smflyer
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:08 pm

DeltaL1011Flyer wrote:
I think the current design functioned exceptionally well as a hub, but speaking as a local - waiting time for luggage is exceptionally long due to the distance from airside to landside, security is frequently cramped and crowded, and amenities are scarce landside, even though there is an abundance of unused space in the ticketing level...landside COULD be reconfigured to utilize the space where it’s needed, but it wouldn’t be an easy or inexpensive fix, and at the end of the day, it would still be the the same cold, outdated building that hasn’t aged well.


I frequent this airport from time to time and because of that long luggage wait I check my bags if I'm flying on DL just to collect the almost guaranteed 2000 sky miles they give out when your bags are >20mins late. But I guess thats the only good that comes out of the slow luggage at this airport. I don't think a brand new terminal with no new concourse should be $1Bil especially when the passenger traffic is about 9mil and not growing super fast as in BNA or AUS. If anything, they should focus on updating the airside as you said hasn't aged well at all. Maybe even wall off unused portions of the terminal and only update the waiting lounges that are actually used. The center of the airside is actually pretty nice with the shops and food options.
 
LovePrunesAnet
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:10 pm

enilria wrote:
Decide for yourself. I did note that it said that rebuilding the existing landside costs about the same as the new building...that ignores the demolition cost which I suspect is significant.

The proposed schedule to abandon the landside building and link its operations to airside is unrealistic;

• Existing conditions “will compromise any scheme and result in complicated, awkward passenger and vehicular circulation;”
• The proposed road system lacks reality in part because of the grades involved and the deep foundations and amount of fill needed.
“These truths make the $1.1 billion budget suspect, unrealistic, and a high risk facing uncontrolled costs,” he wrote.
One of Mr. Katselas’ biggest concerns involves new roads that will have to be built to connect to the new landside building, which will be about half a mile from the existing one.
The architect said the new entry road will need to rise as much as 40 to 50 feet above existing landside building grades, with the exit road descending by the same number of feet.
Because of that, “The new entry and exit roads to/from the new terminal will require large earth fills, in combination with long and high new bridge structures.”


https://www.post-gazette.com/business/d ... 1904140068


Mr. Katselas is merely griping because he was not selected to be on the design team to re-do his original design of the terminal.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:20 pm

LovePrunesAnet wrote:
Mr. Katselas is merely griping because he was not selected to be on the design team to re-do his original design of the terminal.


You don't think his arguments have any merit?
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:30 pm

What he did was great, in 1992. I think it's great that PIT has a vision and accepts their new role as a non-hub but still significant market. They get it.

As a STL resident, I wish our airport would bust out some money and rebuild the terminal. Turn Concourses A and C into a singular concourse parallel with the runways, and with a central security area around the current B Concourse. But....it's STL. ;)
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
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PITingres
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LovePrunesAnet wrote:
Mr. Katselas is merely griping because he was not selected to be on the design team to re-do his original design of the terminal.


You don't think his arguments have any merit?


No, or at least very little.

The landside building is a dog. The transit sucks money and time. Security space is wildly insufficient, and the less said about the baggage systems (plural, no less) the better. International arrivals are a kludge (a welcome one, but a kludge nonetheless). I'm not convinced that the new plan is getting it 100% right, but I definitely agree that the existing airport is no longer suited to purpose.

I'm no civil engineer, but I'm not sure I see why the roads would have to come in at double the estimate. It's not *that* complicated.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
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atypical
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:41 pm

I think that the current design was far ahead of its time and is being too casually dismissed. With half the current costs of the proposed design it could be updated to something as efficient as needed with room to grow. Luggage movements, as learned by DEN, could be automated further. I see the new design as throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
 
strangeplanes
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:17 am

PITingres wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
LovePrunesAnet wrote:
Mr. Katselas is merely griping because he was not selected to be on the design team to re-do his original design of the terminal.


You don't think his arguments have any merit?


No, or at least very little.

The landside building is a dog. The transit sucks money and time. Security space is wildly insufficient, and the less said about the baggage systems (plural, no less) the better. International arrivals are a kludge (a welcome one, but a kludge nonetheless). I'm not convinced that the new plan is getting it 100% right, but I definitely agree that the existing airport is no longer suited to purpose.

I'm no civil engineer, but I'm not sure I see why the roads would have to come in at double the estimate. It's not *that* complicated.


The real cost of the Termibak Modernization Program is well above the publically broadcast estimate price. They are internally working to significantly value engineer the project down to the advertised budget
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:26 am

Will they build a new mega terminal to replace all terminals?
 
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PITingres
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:49 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Will they build a new mega terminal to replace all terminals?


No. Basically, the idea is to ditch the existing landside terminal, which has more flaws than you can shake a stick at IMO, and build a new landside operations terminal area onto the existing airside terminal between arms C and D. Replace all the baggage handling systems, redesign the FIS flow so people can actually leave the terminal without foolishness, etc etc.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
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PITingres
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:55 pm

atypical wrote:
I think that the current design was far ahead of its time and is being too casually dismissed. With half the current costs of the proposed design it could be updated to something as efficient as needed with room to grow. Luggage movements, as learned by DEN, could be automated further. I see the new design as throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


The current design is a good connection airport design. It's a crappy O&D design, as I should know. :-) It actually wasn't too bad new, but that was when security was very different, and US Scareways was the primary carrier. Even then, the baggage systems sucked, though, and the landside building has always been ugly and cheerless. The transit is a money pit.

Have you read the planning document that came out a couple years ago? If they got it badly wrong somewhere, it might be useful to know where, and what they should have done instead. It's easy to claim that one can get all the goods at half the cost, but how would you accomplish that feat?
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
ncflyer
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:15 pm

strangeplanes wrote:

The real cost of the Termibak Modernization Program is well above the publically broadcast estimate price. They are internally working to significantly value engineer the project down to the advertised budget


I’ve always wondered about this strangeplanes— but a 50% value engineering savings is a big stretch, is it not?.

Reasons I’ve wondered about the cost:
PIT hired a “starchitect” for design— sure enough the early drawings look more like a beautiful Asian airport rather than a utilitarian US airport. MCI airport blew away its budget and they had to take out the showcase fountain, at least that’s my understanding. Finally so little is written about this but steel tariffs have to hurt.

Now the roadway issue, I think people are quick to dismiss his concerns but it’s notable ACAA response didn’t address them at all, they attacked the messenger instead.
 
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enilria
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:24 pm

PITingres wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
LovePrunesAnet wrote:
Mr. Katselas is merely griping because he was not selected to be on the design team to re-do his original design of the terminal.


You don't think his arguments have any merit?


No, or at least very little.

The landside building is a dog. The transit sucks money and time. Security space is wildly insufficient, and the less said about the baggage systems (plural, no less) the better. International arrivals are a kludge (a welcome one, but a kludge nonetheless). I'm not convinced that the new plan is getting it 100% right, but I definitely agree that the existing airport is no longer suited to purpose.

I'm no civil engineer, but I'm not sure I see why the roads would have to come in at double the estimate. It's not *that* complicated.

Actually, if you read the article, Mr. Katselas no longer works for the design firm that lost. He retired a long time ago. IMHO, these are definitely his real feelings on the matter, that the losing design firm have probably worked to publicize as much as possible, but that doesn't mean the opinions are wrong.
 
blockski
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:57 pm

enilria wrote:
PITingres wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You don't think his arguments have any merit?


No, or at least very little.

The landside building is a dog. The transit sucks money and time. Security space is wildly insufficient, and the less said about the baggage systems (plural, no less) the better. International arrivals are a kludge (a welcome one, but a kludge nonetheless). I'm not convinced that the new plan is getting it 100% right, but I definitely agree that the existing airport is no longer suited to purpose.

I'm no civil engineer, but I'm not sure I see why the roads would have to come in at double the estimate. It's not *that* complicated.

Actually, if you read the article, Mr. Katselas no longer works for the design firm that lost. He retired a long time ago. IMHO, these are definitely his real feelings on the matter, that the losing design firm have probably worked to publicize as much as possible, but that doesn't mean the opinions are wrong.


Someone's opinion can't really be right or wrong... he's clearly got an emotional attachment to his previous design, and understandably so.

But his critique is all over the map.

“I waited and watched, hoping sensibility would surface to make the public and political entities aware of what they are losing and at what cost,” Mr. Katselas wrote in a preamble to the letter.

“It is dangerous to get trapped with an idea that turns out to be too expensive and unnecessary. It takes courage to admit this and seek alternatives. My hope is that we have such leadership.”


Expensive is one thing; unnecessary? That's not supported at all. And as far as awareness of what PIT would lose - that's the entire point of the plan, to shift to a design better suited for O&D than a connecting hub, not to mention accounting for the changes in security, etc. over the years.

I think he's likely got a point about the cost of new roadways and the need for value engineering, but his broader argument about the height of overpasses doesn't make a ton of sense. A roadway that's 50 feet in the air isn't that remarkable. And the rest of his argument rests on decade-old platitudes (PIT is the BEST) without actually engaging with why the authority wants to change the design.
 
LovePrunesAnet
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:30 pm

enilria wrote:
PITingres wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You don't think his arguments have any merit?


No, or at least very little.

The landside building is a dog. The transit sucks money and time. Security space is wildly insufficient, and the less said about the baggage systems (plural, no less) the better. International arrivals are a kludge (a welcome one, but a kludge nonetheless). I'm not convinced that the new plan is getting it 100% right, but I definitely agree that the existing airport is no longer suited to purpose.

I'm no civil engineer, but I'm not sure I see why the roads would have to come in at double the estimate. It's not *that* complicated.

Actually, if you read the article, Mr. Katselas no longer works for the design firm that lost. He retired a long time ago. IMHO, these are definitely his real feelings on the matter, that the losing design firm have probably worked to publicize as much as possible, but that doesn't mean the opinions are wrong.


True, Katselas is no longer with the firm that designed the "new" PIT. He has his own firm now / retired and still "dabbling" in airport design. He proposed along with many other larger design firms before the 2018 selection was made, but he was not selected, nor were any of the teams instructed to include Katselas as many airports sometimes do: force competitors to work together rather than pick just one. PIT did however require the winning design team to include the "star-chitect" that is now leading things. The winning design team is comprised of some folks who were competing to win the work, but Katselas was left out in the cold.
 
strangeplanes
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:45 pm

ncflyer wrote:
strangeplanes wrote:

The real cost of the Termibak Modernization Program is well above the publically broadcast estimate price. They are internally working to significantly value engineer the project down to the advertised budget


I’ve always wondered about this strangeplanes— but a 50% value engineering savings is a big stretch, is it not?

Is it a stretch that the concept plans would be that much greater than the budget?
- No

Is it a stretch to VE out half the concept budget?
-Yes, it is a stretch. I except the Pitt price tag to increase.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:03 pm

Maybe I missed this but I am curious, did they ever finish paying off the original construction of the current terminal?
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enilria
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:45 pm

blockski wrote:

Someone's opinion can't really be right or wrong... he's clearly got an emotional attachment to his previous design, and understandably so.

But his critique is all over the map.

“I waited and watched, hoping sensibility would surface to make the public and political entities aware of what they are losing and at what cost,” Mr. Katselas wrote in a preamble to the letter.

“It is dangerous to get trapped with an idea that turns out to be too expensive and unnecessary. It takes courage to admit this and seek alternatives. My hope is that we have such leadership.”


Expensive is one thing; unnecessary? That's not supported at all. And as far as awareness of what PIT would lose - that's the entire point of the plan, to shift to a design better suited for O&D than a connecting hub, not to mention accounting for the changes in security, etc. over the years.

I think he's likely got a point about the cost of new roadways and the need for value engineering, but his broader argument about the height of overpasses doesn't make a ton of sense. A roadway that's 50 feet in the air isn't that remarkable. And the rest of his argument rests on decade-old platitudes (PIT is the BEST) without actually engaging with why the authority wants to change the design.

Someone's opinions can be fair or unfair then. I do agree he loves his design and that is his motivation here, not financial. I also don't doubt that the cost of this is probably actually much more than a remodel of the old landside at the end of the day, but... I guess it doesn't really matter unless there is another hub to get at some point and they have taken away the option. That's probably fairly unlikely in the airside's remaining lifespan.
 
steeler83
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:22 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
Maybe I missed this but I am curious, did they ever finish paying off the original construction of the current terminal?

I believe that was paid off as of last year, if I'm not mistaken.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:39 pm

I suppose the main point is to get rid of the train to the plane, which isn't needed for an airport this size. I like trains, but I also like the option to walk. This is why I don't like Denver, being trapped on B and C, although I do like the bridge to A. My rule of airport design, all trains and walkways should be above grade for a view as much as possible. That's the theater of the airport! Seattle's new bridge to the international terminal should be awesome, it looks like a 600' span or so. Missoula has an outdoor second floor deck, which takes me back to the old walkways on top of the Denver concourses.
But back to Pit. First about the roadway, looking at that airport, how much dirtwork did they do to build all those runways? They must have filled in a few spots 50 foot deep here and there. Not that construction standards haven't changed since then, but I hope they could figure out a solution to one small road, given the magnitude of what they accomplished grading the airport in the old days. Second, the design of the new terminal. Looks OK, but just a fad and won't be timeless. Everybody will just look at it in the future and go, oh ya, that wavy gravy roof architecture of 2020 that everybody did. Personally I don't think it compliments the X terminal architecture.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:46 pm

Maybe they should tear down the new airport and rebuild a replica of the old one where it stood. Going into Pit as a kid, I was always mesmerized by the four story airport, compared to DEN, ORD, or LAX which were just two story concourses. In Honolulu or SFO it is cool to have a third floor to look down on the top of aircraft which is a different perspective.
I think the new terminal at PIT should in some way pay tribute to the old terminal with it's many levels and floor setbacks. Get some public spaces, viewing areas, and restaurants on a third and fourth floor overlooking the X gates with a good view of the entire airport.
 
Fargo
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Re: Original Architect Says PIT Terminal Redesign "Doesn't Make Sense"

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:15 pm

When is construction even scheduled to start on this?

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