Max Q
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Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:38 am

I had a thread on this recently but with new wide bodies arriving on the property soon, strong financial results and a more visionary management it seems more than likely that CPT may just be the beginning of an African ‘reprise’ for United



EWR with it’s enormous catchment area of diverse cultures is ideally placed to support this, not to forget IAD with its seat of government just down the road


With those connections, cultural, political and literal combined with the economics of the 787 and the A359 deliveries getting closer, expanding their African presence again seems more than likely


Thoughts, opinions ?
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Typo fixed
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evanb
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:34 pm

Firstly, it's Cape Town, not Capetown.

Secondly, a 3x weekly seasonal service on an ULH route is going to need every revenue boost it can get. For this they'll need traffic from both ends and they'll find that difficult without a sales and distribution presence in South Africa. You can't build that presence on a 3x weekly seasonal service. I would expect that the longer term plan would be a bigger presence in South Africa. However, South Africa is a very different market to the rest of Africa and I don't think it creates any precedent for UA.
 
yulexpansion
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:39 pm

CPT is pretty much a dead end for UA in terms of onward connections geographically and realistically. JNB is doable, but then there's SA at JFK. PLZ, DUR and maybe WDH are sensible beyond connection points if they can strike an agreement with SAA.
 
jfk777
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:18 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
CPT is pretty much a dead end for UA in terms of onward connections geographically and realistically. JNB is doable, but then there's SA at JFK. PLZ, DUR and maybe WDH are sensible beyond connection points if they can strike an agreement with SAA.


SAA's main hub is in Johannesburg, Cape Town still has nonstops to the top domestic destinations. Durban, Port Elizabeth, Johannesburg are all connected. United will get some feed and onward connections from SAA, it's in all their interests. Hopefully we will see a Newark to J'burg nonstop too soon.
 
sw733
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:23 pm

Perhaps United may want to expand slightly in to Africa, but I don't see much...and even less considering the most obvious routes would already end up in direct competition with Delta. JNB would make sense, but frankly not much more. Even as an African, I have no problem admitting that there's not much of a market for American airlines to operation US-Africa simply because the economics mostly are not there, and the connections through Europe are so plentiful.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:24 pm

Africa is long, thin routes from the US, and the airports that are likely needing to be served already are. UA's Star partners on the African continent are Egyptair and South African Airways. SA has the daily nonstop on JFK-JNB and Egyptair flies from JFK to CAI and will soon start IAD-CAI as well. I could see UA add a seasonal route to Casablanca or Marrakech, but that's about it. The oil routes to Nigeria, if they are restarted, would likely be from IAH not EWR. UA tried ACC in the 2000s from IAD and it did not work.
 
evanb
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:29 pm

jfk777 wrote:
SAA's main hub is in Johannesburg, Cape Town still has nonstops to the top domestic destinations. Durban, Port Elizabeth, Johannesburg are all connected. United will get some feed and onward connections from SAA, it's in all their interests. Hopefully we will see a Newark to J'burg nonstop too soon.


Don't be too quick on this. SAA only flies to JNB from CPT. Domestic flights from CPT to DUR, PLZ, ELS, GRJ, MQP, HDS, SZK, KIM and UTN are all on Mango or Airlink. Regional flights to MUB, WDH, WVB and VFA are either on Airlink or SA Express. Both Airlink and SA Express are on SA code but there are no codeshares from foreign carriers on these flights. SAA codeshares on Mango flight but also no codeshares from foreign carriers.

More importantly, the arrival time in CPT is after all these flights with the exception of flights to JNB and one flight to DUR which doesn't even run daily. The connections in CPT are going to be slim pickings.
 
evanb
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:30 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Africa is long, thin routes from the US, and the airports that are likely needing to be served already are. UA's Star partners on the African continent are Egyptair and South African Airways. SA has the daily nonstop on JFK-JNB and Egyptair flies from JFK to CAI and will soon start IAD-CAI as well. I could see UA add a seasonal route to Casablanca or Marrakech, but that's about it. The oil routes to Nigeria, if they are restarted, would likely be from IAH not EWR. UA tried ACC in the 2000s from IAD and it did not work.


Not to be pedantic, but their largest partner in Africa is likely Ethiopian.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Oil & gas may drive IAH-LOS and IAH-LAD.

B788 would be a good fit.
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dmstorm22
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:38 pm

evanb wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
SAA's main hub is in Johannesburg, Cape Town still has nonstops to the top domestic destinations. Durban, Port Elizabeth, Johannesburg are all connected. United will get some feed and onward connections from SAA, it's in all their interests. Hopefully we will see a Newark to J'burg nonstop too soon.


Don't be too quick on this. SAA only flies to JNB from CPT. Domestic flights from CPT to DUR, PLZ, ELS, GRJ, MQP, HDS, SZK, KIM and UTN are all on Mango or Airlink. Regional flights to MUB, WDH, WVB and VFA are either on Airlink or SA Express. Both Airlink and SA Express are on SA code but there are no codeshares from foreign carriers on these flights. SAA codeshares on Mango flight but also no codeshares from foreign carriers.

More importantly, the arrival time in CPT is after all these flights with the exception of flights to JNB and one flight to DUR which doesn't even run daily. The connections in CPT are going to be slim pickings.


I don't think UA is banking on getting much in the way of ex-CPT connections.
This is more about getting ex-EWR connections on the US side - which are easy from a timing perspective with an 2030 departure and 0545 arrival.

Now, the question is will they get them?
 
jfk777
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:45 pm

Delta flies to Lagos, Dakar and Accra, so there is a market especially from New York. These market could be flown with 767 from Newark so United doesn't have to use a 787 or 777 unless they need capacity for those markets. IF UA wanted to it could make those markets work, Dulles and Houston are more niche for an African service.
 
evanb
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:55 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
I don't think UA is banking on getting much in the way of ex-CPT connections.
This is more about getting ex-EWR connections on the US side - which are easy from a timing perspective with an 2030 departure and 0545 arrival.

Now, the question is will they get them?


Indeed, that is evident by their arrival time in CPT. And yes, I think they will get the connections at EWR. They'll have the monopoly of non-stop US to CPT.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:04 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Delta flies to Lagos, Dakar and Accra, so there is a market especially from New York. These market could be flown with 767 from Newark so United doesn't have to use a 787 or 777 unless they need capacity for those markets.


That a city pair has room for one carrier doesn't mean it has room for two. None of those destinations is even daily for Delta.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:06 pm

evanb wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Africa is long, thin routes from the US, and the airports that are likely needing to be served already are. UA's Star partners on the African continent are Egyptair and South African Airways. SA has the daily nonstop on JFK-JNB and Egyptair flies from JFK to CAI and will soon start IAD-CAI as well. I could see UA add a seasonal route to Casablanca or Marrakech, but that's about it. The oil routes to Nigeria, if they are restarted, would likely be from IAH not EWR. UA tried ACC in the 2000s from IAD and it did not work.


Not to be pedantic, but their largest partner in Africa is likely Ethiopian.


Forgot, yes, Ethiopian is part of Star yes, but it's been said UA and ET don't cooperate well.
 
fraT
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:17 pm

evanb wrote:

Secondly, a 3x weekly seasonal service on an ULH route is going to need every revenue boost it can get. For this they'll need traffic from both ends and they'll find that difficult without a sales and distribution presence in South Africa. You can't build that presence on a 3x weekly seasonal service. I would expect that the longer term plan would be a bigger presence in South Africa. However, South Africa is a very different market to the rest of Africa and I don't think it creates any precedent for UA.


These flights will be nearly entirely filled by North American passengers. Reason for that is that the North American fares are much higher than the fares in South Africa and the demand is also much bigger in U.S. and Canada than in the Southern Africa region. So UA will cut off the passengers from CPT simply because they can fill the flights with higher yielding passengers from the other direction. This mainly applies for Economy Class.
The success of this route will also depend on whether they can fill the premium cabins with paying passengers. Many flights from Europe to CPT have tons of redemption tickets and redemption upgrades sitting up front. ULH flights are even more depending on having more paying passengers and less redemption bookings.

Since the CPT area and Garden Route have become very popular with American tourists I am pretty optimistic that this route will last and even be extended, not necessarily year round but some more months.
 
aeroblogger
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
evanb wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Africa is long, thin routes from the US, and the airports that are likely needing to be served already are. UA's Star partners on the African continent are Egyptair and South African Airways. SA has the daily nonstop on JFK-JNB and Egyptair flies from JFK to CAI and will soon start IAD-CAI as well. I could see UA add a seasonal route to Casablanca or Marrakech, but that's about it. The oil routes to Nigeria, if they are restarted, would likely be from IAH not EWR. UA tried ACC in the 2000s from IAD and it did not work.


Not to be pedantic, but their largest partner in Africa is likely Ethiopian.


Forgot, yes, Ethiopian is part of Star yes, but it's been said UA and ET don't cooperate well.


UA and ET cooperate a whole lot better than UA and SA/MS. ET allows domestic UA flights on almost all of their fares, and (based on anecdotal data from the UA staff at SEA), there are 10-30 people flying SEA-IAD/ORD-ADD almost every night.

In contrast, MS connects their passengers domestically on B6.
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smithbs
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:39 pm

Yield and revenue aside, and if they decided to fly it, how would UA fly this route? CPT-EWR is 6973 nm, but westbound you have high Atlantic winds in your face the entire time where the still air equivalent range could come closer to 8000 nm. Use an ULH airframe with minimal cargo revenue? Or refuel somewhere and try to pack the airplane, and try to use cargo to offset pax fares?
 
United1
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:44 pm

smithbs wrote:
Yield and revenue aside, and if they decided to fly it, how would UA fly this route? CPT-EWR is 6973 nm, but westbound you have high Atlantic winds in your face the entire time where the still air equivalent range could come closer to 8000 nm. Use an ULH airframe with minimal cargo revenue? Or refuel somewhere and try to pack the airplane, and try to use cargo to offset pax fares?


It's not an "if" UA starts this route in December and they will use a 789 non-stop. Both EWR and CPT are basically at sea level and it's not even the longest 789 route UA flies so taking a full load of passengers and even some cargo should not be an issue.
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airbazar
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:57 pm

The answer is yes of course. Cape Town is in Africa and UA doesn't currently serve Africa so it is the exact definition of a return to Africa :)
However UA doesn't have a huge need to fly their own metal to Africa because *A already covers Africa really well. Between ET, SA, and MS already flying routes between Africa and the U.S. there is also an abundance of *A carriers serving Africa via Europe: SN, TP, TK, LH, LX plus the above mentioned ET, SA, MS, and a couple of routes with AC. With so much of the U.S.-Africa market covered by the A++ JV the decision to start non-stop routes to Africa may not be entirely up to UA.
With all that said I do think that there's potential for UA to resume a couple of routes to Africa but it will never be a very extensive network for the reasons I listed above.
Last edited by airbazar on Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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smithbs
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:00 pm

United1 wrote:
It's not an "if" UA starts this route in December and they will use a 789 non-stop. Both EWR and CPT are basically at sea level and it's not even the longest 789 route UA flies so taking a full load of passengers and even some cargo should not be an issue.


Hmmm - by my napkin sketches, with a good headwind, you could get a full pax load into the UA 789 but maybe about 5000 lbs cargo after that? Do-able, I guess.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:28 pm

Max Q wrote:
I had a thread on this recently but with new wide bodies arriving on the property soon, strong financial results and a more visionary management it seems more than likely that CPT may just be the beginning of an African ‘reprise’ for United



EWR with it’s enormous catchment area of diverse cultures is ideally placed to support this, not to forget IAD with its seat of government just down the road


With those connections, cultural, political and literal combined with the economics of the 787 and the A359 deliveries getting closer, expanding their African presence again seems more than likely


Thoughts, opinions ?


How about correcting the spelling on the thread title?

Cape Town, that is.
 
santi319
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:56 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Oil & gas may drive IAH-LOS and IAH-LAD.

B788 would be a good fit.

Everyday that passes by, this becomes more and more irrelevant.

Look more towards the new up and comming tourists’ meccas like Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia and Rwanda.
 
NYKiwi
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:39 pm

Defiantly interested to watch the fares on this one....and if SAA will codeshare or complete out of JFK with one stop option. March I flew JFK to CPT for $740 so no doubt UA will want more than that for non-stop so then it comes down to time value of money.....one stop v's nonstop like a lot of other destinations. Although now getting old the A346 is a great bird to fly on, not saying the 787 isn't but UA are cramped in the back and SA more spacious which counts for me at 6'4"...….time will tell.
 
evanb
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:01 pm

smithbs wrote:
Hmmm - by my napkin sketches, with a good headwind, you could get a full pax load into the UA 789 but maybe about 5000 lbs cargo after that? Do-able, I guess.


Let's start with both EWR and CPT being at sea level, are not the hotest places around and ample runway length. That means they should get MTOW on most days.

MTOW is 254t and OEW is 128t. Fuel probably 70t. 50t for payload is huge! My guess they won't go out anywhere near MTOW and still carry all their pax and cargo.
 
GRJGeorge
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:05 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
evanb wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
SAA's main hub is in Johannesburg, Cape Town still has nonstops to the top domestic destinations. Durban, Port Elizabeth, Johannesburg are all connected. United will get some feed and onward connections from SAA, it's in all their interests. Hopefully we will see a Newark to J'burg nonstop too soon.


Don't be too quick on this. SAA only flies to JNB from CPT. Domestic flights from CPT to DUR, PLZ, ELS, GRJ, MQP, HDS, SZK, KIM and UTN are all on Mango or Airlink. Regional flights to MUB, WDH, WVB and VFA are either on Airlink or SA Express. Both Airlink and SA Express are on SA code but there are no codeshares from foreign carriers on these flights. SAA codeshares on Mango flight but also no codeshares from foreign carriers.

More importantly, the arrival time in CPT is after all these flights with the exception of flights to JNB and one flight to DUR which doesn't even run daily. The connections in CPT are going to be slim pickings.


I don't think UA is banking on getting much in the way of ex-CPT connections.
This is more about getting ex-EWR connections on the US side - which are easy from a timing perspective with an 2030 departure and 0545 arrival.

Now, the question is will they get them?


Since the main market focus is travelers from the US (and maybe Canada), arriving and starting their trips in Cape Town is very likely, before moving onward along the coast or inland, then the return leg at least gets connecting flights from other domestic and regional destinations in the, arriving CPT in the afternoon/early evening...including the more tourist hotspots like GRJ, PLZ, DUR, MQP, HDS, MUB, VFA, WVB, WDH
 
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smithbs
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:27 pm

evanb wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Hmmm - by my napkin sketches, with a good headwind, you could get a full pax load into the UA 789 but maybe about 5000 lbs cargo after that? Do-able, I guess.


Let's start with both EWR and CPT being at sea level, are not the hotest places around and ample runway length. That means they should get MTOW on most days.

MTOW is 254t and OEW is 128t. Fuel probably 70t. 50t for payload is huge! My guess they won't go out anywhere near MTOW and still carry all their pax and cargo.


I agree that MTOW in normal conditions is probably a decent assumption (morning TO in CPT?). But westbound I calculated about 56 klbs of payload, of which a full pax load would be just a bit above 50 klbs. Eastbound should be a breeze (literally).
 
5NFGS
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:38 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Delta flies to Lagos, Dakar and Accra, so there is a market especially from New York. These market could be flown with 767 from Newark so United doesn't have to use a 787 or 777 unless they need capacity for those markets.


That a city pair has room for one carrier doesn't mean it has room for two. None of those destinations is even daily for Delta.


Lagos is daily sir, 4x via ATL and 3x via JFK
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airbazar
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:24 pm

santi319 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Oil & gas may drive IAH-LOS and IAH-LAD.

B788 would be a good fit.

Everyday that passes by, this becomes more and more irrelevant.

Look more towards the new up and comming tourists’ meccas like Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia and Rwanda.


They may be up and coming for Americans but those are well established tourist destinations for Europeans
Which is in part why most U.S.-Africa passengers travel via Europe and the ME. JNB is simply too expensive of a hub (altitude + ULH), for this kind of traffic. Until there is a good hub in West/Central Africa, this traffic will continue to flow via Europe and the ME. ET is trying to establish a hub in Lome but I think it's still a unproven strategy.
 
evanb
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:34 pm

smithbs wrote:
evanb wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Hmmm - by my napkin sketches, with a good headwind, you could get a full pax load into the UA 789 but maybe about 5000 lbs cargo after that? Do-able, I guess.


Let's start with both EWR and CPT being at sea level, are not the hotest places around and ample runway length. That means they should get MTOW on most days.

MTOW is 254t and OEW is 128t. Fuel probably 70t. 50t for payload is huge! My guess they won't go out anywhere near MTOW and still carry all their pax and cargo.


I agree that MTOW in normal conditions is probably a decent assumption (morning TO in CPT?). But westbound I calculated about 56 klbs of payload, of which a full pax load would be just a bit above 50 klbs. Eastbound should be a breeze (literally).


Early evening departure from CPT. Even in the hottest month (February), the average daily high is 26C. B787-9 will get MTOW at ISA +15C. 3,200m of runway means that even at ISA +25C it would only lose about 10t. Temperatures of 40C are very rare in Cape Town, even less so at the airport (higher temps in the city and winelands, but the flats where the airport is tends to be significantly cooler). So we're safe to assume MTOW nearly every day. Only challenge might be winds on the westbound (as you've said). But that's a pretty good payload on a ULH. My doubt is whether they get the yield to sustain it.
 
thegreatRDU
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:40 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Africa is long, thin routes from the US, and the airports that are likely needing to be served already are. UA's Star partners on the African continent are Egyptair and South African Airways. SA has the daily nonstop on JFK-JNB and Egyptair flies from JFK to CAI and will soon start IAD-CAI as well. I could see UA add a seasonal route to Casablanca or Marrakech, but that's about it. The oil routes to Nigeria, if they are restarted, would likely be from IAH not EWR. UA tried ACC in the 2000s from IAD and it did not work.

Are we going to just ignore Ethiopian?
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NYKiwi
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Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:41 am

Agree will be about yields and if they can get a premium.over one stop options.

If the price economy return at say $1k and SAA price one stop at $800 i'd stick with SAA just my 2cents

If the 789 has premium exon this may help with yields also by then dunno what the timeline is to have installed
 
Gabrielz
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Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:49 am

I think the EWR-CPT route is a very good example of the combined effects of UA’s unique hubs and the 787s economics. They are going after a very high yielding LEISURE customer with this offering (as they did with PPT).

I don’t think there are many other African routes with similar dynamics. It’s possible that RAK, NBO might have some potential, but the rest of Africa is pretty weak for US-origin tourism.

-G
 
LH658
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Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:23 am

Would love to see return to LOS on UA, but i know the Euro 3, plus QR, EK, and TK are enjoying the traffic they regained from IAH. Yes people do fly IAH - DXB - LOS it a back track, but whatever cheap, or to gain more points some people do it.

Seems like ET cover almost ever major city, while SAA only has JFK and IAD. Would love to see UA open more Africa flights from IAD as it seem a ideal location, and also diplomat, UN, and NGO traffic etc.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:35 am

airbazar wrote:
santi319 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Oil & gas may drive IAH-LOS and IAH-LAD.

B788 would be a good fit.

Everyday that passes by, this becomes more and more irrelevant.

Look more towards the new up and comming tourists’ meccas like Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia and Rwanda.


They may be up and coming for Americans but those are well established tourist destinations for Europeans
Which is in part why most U.S.-Africa passengers travel via Europe and the ME. JNB is simply too expensive of a hub (altitude + ULH), for this kind of traffic. Until there is a good hub in West/Central Africa, this traffic will continue to flow via Europe and the ME. ET is trying to establish a hub in Lome but I think it's still a unproven strategy.


What world are you living in? How are Botswana or Zambia "well established tourist destinations for Europeans". Those are still mostly off-the-radar destinations. Probably Europeans travel a bit more to those countries than Americans because of colonial links + distance to Southern Africa + Europeans travelling more overall.

The only one of those destinations that are well-stablished for Europeans is Zanzibar (Tanzania) which sees a number of leisure flights from Europe + EK/QR/ET/TK. Namibia is also becoming more popular (e.g. Eurowings launching FRA is a good proxy) but it is still a very niche destination.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:38 am

santi319 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Oil & gas may drive IAH-LOS and IAH-LAD.

B788 would be a good fit.

Everyday that passes by, this becomes more and more irrelevant.

Look more towards the new up and comming tourists’ meccas like Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia and Rwanda.


Could you elaborate on what do you mean by "more irrelevant"?

Are you really trying to say that leisure traffic going to safaris is more likely to drive a route than an industry like oil&gas?
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airbazar
Posts: 9701
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:51 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
The only one of those destinations that are well-stablished for Europeans is Zanzibar (Tanzania) which sees a number of leisure flights from Europe + EK/QR/ET/TK. Namibia is also becoming more popular (e.g. Eurowings launching FRA is a good proxy) but it is still a very niche destination.

Hummm, either you need to get out more or you're too young to know any better :)
Except for a few beach resorts in North Africa, Africa is a niche destination, period. But that doesn't mean the other areas are not well established. I think you are confusing "well-established" with popular.
Namibia has been a very well established tourist destination for decades. LH used to fly there long before Eurowings for a reason. And with a 744 too. Condor still flies there from FRA and of course, Air Namibia.

LH also used to fly to Zimbabwe as the gateway to Victoria Falls in Zambia. All of that stopped in the 2000's when the economy collapsed and things in Zimbabwe got really bad. Then SA joined *A in the mid 2000's and there was no longer a need to serve those destinations with their own metal. South Africa, Botswana, and Namibia have long been part of a well establish tourist circuit served primarily via JNB. Have you never heard of the Okavango Delta and the Kalahari desert?
Tanzania is not just Zanzibar either. The largest and best concentration of game parks in the world is in Tanzania. Have you never heard of the Serengeti, Ngorongoro, and Kilimanjaro?
Zambia and Rwanda are not really well established.
 
blockski
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:13 pm

LH658 wrote:
Would love to see return to LOS on UA, but i know the Euro 3, plus QR, EK, and TK are enjoying the traffic they regained from IAH. Yes people do fly IAH - DXB - LOS it a back track, but whatever cheap, or to gain more points some people do it.

Seems like ET cover almost ever major city, while SAA only has JFK and IAD. Would love to see UA open more Africa flights from IAD as it seem a ideal location, and also diplomat, UN, and NGO traffic etc.


As a local in DC, I'd love to see UA fly to Africa from IAD. In very rough terms, the DC area is home to one of the largest African immigrant populations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_i ... mographics

At the same time, Dulles has been adding new service to Africa over the years. IAD will be up to 7 African destinations this summer, if all goes according to plan - but none on UA.

SA flies to JNB daily, alternating between fifth freedom stops in ACC and DKR; Royal Air Maroc flies to CMN; Ethiopian has their regular ADD flight (with increased service recently, including a stop in ABJ), and EgyptAir will start a flight to CAI this summer.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:31 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
evanb wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Africa is long, thin routes from the US, and the airports that are likely needing to be served already are. UA's Star partners on the African continent are Egyptair and South African Airways. SA has the daily nonstop on JFK-JNB and Egyptair flies from JFK to CAI and will soon start IAD-CAI as well. I could see UA add a seasonal route to Casablanca or Marrakech, but that's about it. The oil routes to Nigeria, if they are restarted, would likely be from IAH not EWR. UA tried ACC in the 2000s from IAD and it did not work.


Not to be pedantic, but their largest partner in Africa is likely Ethiopian.


Forgot, yes, Ethiopian is part of Star yes, but it's been said UA and ET don't cooperate well.

Yes, the one of UA's "ugly step-siblings"--- ET, A3, TG.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4101
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:26 pm

Did the link disappear to TPG?

I think I recall when reading it - they said "something" about (do not recall the word) enhanced, or special version of United's 789? Is there an extended range 789?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
santi319
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Is Capetown the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:34 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
santi319 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Oil & gas may drive IAH-LOS and IAH-LAD.

B788 would be a good fit.

Everyday that passes by, this becomes more and more irrelevant.

Look more towards the new up and comming tourists’ meccas like Botswana, Namibia, Tanzania, Zambia and Rwanda.


Could you elaborate on what do you mean by "more irrelevant

Are you really trying to say that leisure traffic going to safaris is more likely to drive a route than an industry like oil&gas?


You do know that every year that passes by, we become less dependent on oil..

Example, look at flights to oil destinations now vs 5-6 years ago.

UA launched flights to PPT for christ sake.

Yes there is money to be made by rich tourists believe it or not.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Is Cape Town the beginning of a return to Africa for UA ?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:55 pm

United should launch flights from Newark to Casablanca and Newark to Cairo as well.

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