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lightsaber
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Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:38 pm

I'm starting a new thread due to the massive size of the prior Jet thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1400609

This thread is for possible relaunch of the Jet brand, asset allocation, aircraft allocation, and Jet employee discussion.

Please minimize political discussion or have a link to back up how that discussion is relevant.

Lightsaber
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EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:41 pm

Will the slots at BOM be auctioned or be on a first come, first served basis?
 
klm617
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:43 pm

klm617 wrote:

The question is how did Delta make such a big mistake by partnering with these guys.


Is that the question? It was a simple codeshare nothing more and it's really no skin off Delta's nose. I don't recall 'the questions' of the past being 'How did American make such a big mistake by partnering with AirBerlin' or Mexicana... or Kingfisher...

Additionally, the real question is of course how did Etihad make such a big mistake by buying 24% of these guys?


Yes but according to a.net Delta's aspirations to serve India all rested on the route network of Jet Airways. One would think that Delta would have did a better job researching the partner they chose. It's little different with Delta because they are considered to be the financial geniuses of the airline world again according to a.net.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:45 pm

How large of a gap left behind are we talking here? Here in AMS Jet Airways has a pretty large presence, I can only imagine India will feel it immensely? Unfamiliar with the entirety of Jet Airways' situation, sorry.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:58 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
How large of a gap left behind are we talking here? Here in AMS Jet Airways has a pretty large presence, I can only imagine India will feel it immensely? Unfamiliar with the entirety of Jet Airways' situation, sorry.


The previous discussion hasn't really focused on the affect to Jet's main partners - EY, KL, AF, DL & VS. Jet brought a ton of transfer traffic to them. Unclear what this means for them. Can they just pivot somewhere else? It seems to me that the DL and crew gave 9W their cheapest fares from EU-US. This let them raise fares for US-EU O&D - meaning they knew Jet could fill 10% or what ever of certain flights. But again who knows. 9W had quite a lot of flights to AUH (that were probably mostly connecting pax) and had 9 flights to EU hubs. Call me crazy but I don't see DL and crew transferring pax to Spice or Indigo in EU for onward to India - but who knows
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:04 pm

Extremely sad to hear this, all said and done.

Jet Airways changed Indian aviation and were a staple in the skies for 25+ years. Can't say the same for others who have gone down, like Kingfisher or Paramount.

Hope all the employees pull through.
Vahroone
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:05 pm

This was a long time coming. Irrespective of what some politically-biased posters may say about the situation deteriorating in last 8 months and blaming on the parties they hate based on emotion instead of facts, the real fact is that Jet never consistently made profits for more than couple of quarters in the last 10 years. They somehow managed to cripple along using one loan to pay off another, till the last round of fuel spikes etc finally bust the bubble. They also went through 7-8 CEOs in the last 10 years as the owner Naresh Goyal was not willing to give them a free hand.

Feel very bad for the employees as the company never came clean on the extent of difficulty they were in. Hope they find jobs quickly!
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:11 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Call me crazy but I don't see DL and crew transferring pax to Spice or Indigo in EU for onward to India - but who knows


Why not? QR partners with B6 and they sell DOH-BOS-HOU, where BOS-HOU is on B6, which is all Y.

Given than BOS-HOU or DEN-JFK etc. Are twice as long as almost any flight in India, I dont see why it isnt possible for someone to go AMS-BOM-IXE or something with the last short segment on a LCC.
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winginit
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
Yes but according to a.net Delta's aspirations to serve India all rested on the route network of Jet Airways. One would think that Delta would have did a better job researching the partner they chose. It's little different with Delta because they are considered to be the financial geniuses of the airline world again according to a.net.


So maybe they don't serve India as a result of this collapse. Again, really no skin off Delta's nose.

Additionally, it sounds like, unlike Etihad, Delta made the right choice in not sinking an equity stake into Jet. Financially prudent decisions all around.

To bring things back on topic, what happens to Jet's 77Ws? With an average age of 11 years they aren't spring chickens but curious as to where they might end up. Apologies if that was already brought up in the previous thread.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Call me crazy but I don't see DL and crew transferring pax to Spice or Indigo in EU for onward to India - but who knows


So a few years ago I would have agreed, but I think WestJet proves that DL isn't as shy as they maybe once were about partnering with LCCs. Granted, SpiceJet as an example is a bit more of an LCC when compared to today's WestJet but you never know.
Last edited by winginit on Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:15 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
How large of a gap left behind are we talking here? Here in AMS Jet Airways has a pretty large presence, I can only imagine India will feel it immensely? Unfamiliar with the entirety of Jet Airways' situation, sorry.

AF and KLM are opperating at least one extra daily flight to replace Jet uplift:

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 0.ece/amp/

Fares are up 28%, so yes, everyone is feeling it.

Capacity to DXB is being requested (SpiceJet, AirIndia and I would assume Indigo all want in). Capacity to AUH has gone unfilled. To my knowledge, low priority.

BOM-DEL fares shot up (going from memory) 30%. SpiceJet will fill that demand quickly.

India was over served internationally and domestically prior the the Jet collapse. Now it is under-served. In the prior thread I estimated it was over-served by 50 to 70 aircraft just as it is now under-served by 50 to 70 aircraft. Growth is fast in India, so another 8 to 14 additional aircraft are needed every month. So while over 50 additional aircraft will serve the market by end of summer (mostly SpiceJet and Indigo), it will take, per my estimate, 15 to 24 months for the market to be correctly served.

Then I expect the world's fastest growing aviation market to once again become over-supplied. Cest la vie. The ULCCs seem positioned to survive a multi year fare war.

My big question is DL to BOM. Does this kill or improve the business case? : scratchchin:
I think the later. DL will partner with someone else. Who?

Side comment: the big India/US airline partnerships I root for all implode! (Kingfisher/AA, Jet/DL).

Many interesting repercussions. My heart goes out to Jet employees. Creative distruction is not fun.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:18 pm

blrsea wrote:
This was a long time coming. Irrespective of what some politically-biased posters may say about the situation deteriorating in last 8 months and blaming on the parties they hate based on emotion instead of facts, the real fact is that Jet never consistently made profits for more than couple of quarters in the last 10 years. They somehow managed to cripple along using one loan to pay off another, till the last round of fuel spikes etc finally bust the bubble. They also went through 7-8 CEOs in the last 10 years as the owner Naresh Goyal was not willing to give them a free hand.


Spot on. 9W also failed to adapt to a changing market, got stuck with no identity (JetLite-JetKonnect-Jet, anyone?) And eventually had a high cost structure and a product that did not justify any revenue premium.

I remember flying EWR-BRU-DEL in 2011 in J and being impressed by the hard and soft product. Flew the same a332 in 2017 on SIN-DEL and thought I was on air India -aircraft was in poor shape with broken seats and screens, iFE content was outdated and service was average at best.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:20 pm

klm617 wrote:
Additionally, the real question is of course how did Etihad make such a big mistake by buying 24% of these guys?


Etihad has no flair for choosing his friends (Air Berlin, Alitalia, Jet airways). Disaster on disaster...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:23 pm

klm617 wrote:
Yes but according to a.net Delta's aspirations to serve India all rested on the route network of Jet Airways. One would think that Delta would have did a better job researching the partner they chose. It's little different with Delta because they are considered to be the financial geniuses of the airline world again according to a.net.


There was no doubt 9W was DL's silver bullet to recapture US-India market share from ME3. For the most part, it worked. AF/KL is pretty much saddled with union issues. VS was not in a position to expand India network. Air India is tainted goods. Vistara barely has planes.

What other options DL has?
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:23 pm

winginit wrote:
To bring things back on topic, what happens to Jet's 77Ws? With an average age of 11 years they aren't spring chickens but curious as to where they might end up. Apologies if that was already brought up in the previous thread.

A fair question. So far used 77Ws haven't had much trouble finding a home. However, I believe this is enough additional 77Ws to suddenly hit the market, combined with A350 and 787 production, that the used pricing of 77Ws just took a hit.

In my opinion, these will find a 2nd Life as in passenger duty. However, the need for a 77W/L P2F just became punctuated. But we quickly go off topic there.

I hope individuals post where Jet aircraft find a home here. If someone puts together a summary, I would appreciate it.

E.g., I know how many 738s SpiceJet is allocated, but not if all are ex-Jet. I assume all 16, but is that the case?

I am also interested in where Jet employees end up. How many pilots to SpiceJet, Indigo, Emirates, etc. Will there be enough information to follow technicians, FA, and ground staff?

Lightsaber
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:24 pm

klm617 wrote:
Additionally, the real question is of course how did Etihad make such a big mistake by buying 24% of these guys?


Ironically, Jet Airways would probably qualify as their `best` buy.
Vahroone
 
behramjee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Blankbarcode wrote:
How large of a gap left behind are we talking here? Here in AMS Jet Airways has a pretty large presence, I can only imagine India will feel it immensely? Unfamiliar with the entirety of Jet Airways' situation, sorry.

AF and KLM are opperating at least one extra daily flight to replace Jet uplift:

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 0.ece/amp/

Fares are up 28%, so yes, everyone is feeling it.

Capacity to DXB is being requested (SpiceJet, AirIndia and I would assume Indigo all want in). Capacity to AUH has gone unfilled. To my knowledge, low priority.

BOM-DEL fares shot up (going from memory) 30%. SpiceJet will fill that demand quickly.

India was over served internationally and domestically prior the the Jet collapse. Now it is under-served. In the prior thread I estimated it was over-served by 50 to 70 aircraft just as it is now under-served by 50 to 70 aircraft. Growth is fast in India, so another 8 to 14 additional aircraft are needed every month. So while over 50 additional aircraft will serve the market by end of summer (mostly SpiceJet and Indigo), it will take, per my estimate, 15 to 24 months for the market to be correctly served.

Then I expect the world's fastest growing aviation market to once again become over-supplied. Cest la vie. The ULCCs seem positioned to survive a multi year fare war.

My big question is DL to BOM. Does this kill or improve the business case? : scratchchin:
I think the later. DL will partner with someone else. Who?

Side comment: the big India/US airline partnerships I root for all implode! (Kingfisher/AA, Jet/DL).

Many interesting repercussions. My heart goes out to Jet employees. Creative distruction is not fun.

Lightsaber


The AF KL extra services to India I believe are short term just to cater for the peak Easter rush and India summer school holidays which end mid May.

Hopefully KL will make BOM daily soon and consider BLR from W19 season.

From AMS LHR CDG, 9W was a very big player to BKK and CMB in particular so this segment the ME3 and TK would capitalize on the most.
 
blr380
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:33 pm

I hope someone can answer this: 9W ran out of cash and nobody is willing to offer additional loans. So, how will the refunds be processed? Who pays for the refunds? Call center seems to be closed as well (I understand even they need to get paid).
 
sunking737
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:34 pm

How fast will the leasing companies find homes for their 737's
I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:35 pm

behramjee wrote:

Hopefully KL will make BOM daily soon and consider BLR from W19 season..


In 2005, Northwest had announced AMS-BLR flights and cancelled it two days before inaugural flight.

Hopefully, KLM will start the AMS-BLR flight and make up for the loss of 9W.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:35 pm

klm617 wrote:
Additionally, the real question is of course how did Etihad make such a big mistake by buying 24% of these guys?



No good business is usually interested in stake sale.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:37 pm

blr380 wrote:
I hope someone can answer this: 9W ran out of cash and nobody is willing to offer additional loans. So, how will the refunds be processed? Who pays for the refunds? Call center seems to be closed as well (I understand even they need to get paid).


People will have to wait for a long time unfortunately. Last I read, the refunds itself was in excess of Rs 3500 crores. People may lose money, unfortunate reality. I guess they will be treated as "operational creditors" when Jet goes to bankruptcy. Not sure though.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:39 pm

sunking737 wrote:
How fast will the leasing companies find homes for their 737's


With MAX grounding, 737NGs should find new homes quickly ie. once they caught up with scheduled/deferred MX and cabin refits.

It appears no one wants to talk about 9W MAXes, lessors seem to happy to leave them on 9W books for now.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:50 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yes but according to a.net Delta's aspirations to serve India all rested on the route network of Jet Airways. One would think that Delta would have did a better job researching the partner they chose. It's little different with Delta because they are considered to be the financial geniuses of the airline world again according to a.net.


There was no doubt 9W was DL's silver bullet to recapture US-India market share from ME3. For the most part, it worked. AF/KL is pretty much saddled with union issues. VS was not in a position to expand India network. Air India is tainted goods.

What other options DL has?

DL has phenomenal premium feed. I believe ATL to BOM could work without Indian participation.

However, DL adapts. Considering the Indian portion of the trip is under 2 hours, they could partner with anyone. Now due to alliances/ownership, I rule out Air India, Vistara, and Air Asia. While an ULCC has less appeal, it could be package to work.

Do recall bridge hubbing is fading (two or more connections). With the sudden spike in fares in/out of India, now is the time to launch service. DL has time to partner for connections. They might pick 2 partners...

This is an opportunity. Besides, SpiceJet might discover they want to keep the fat seats.

Lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:55 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Call me crazy but I don't see DL and crew transferring pax to Spice or Indigo in EU for onward to India - but who knows


Nothing is impossible, Air France-KLM codeshares with more LCCs. For example GOL in Brazil and FlySafair in South Africa. And of course on their home turf some flights are operated by Transavia.

How are IndiGo and SpiceJet different from GOL and FlySafair?
Last edited by PatrickZ80 on Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:56 pm

lightsaber wrote:
winginit wrote:
To bring things back on topic, what happens to Jet's 77Ws? With an average age of 11 years they aren't spring chickens but curious as to where they might end up. Apologies if that was already brought up in the previous thread.

A fair question. So far used 77Ws haven't had much trouble finding a home. However, I believe this is enough additional 77Ws to suddenly hit the market, combined with A350 and 787 production, that the used pricing of 77Ws just took a hit.


I could see BA snapping them up. They just picked up a few more 77Ws and seem to be quite happy with them.
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Varsity1
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:58 pm

Does AA have any potential partners in India?
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:00 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Does AA have any potential partners in India?


Not in India but they do have Sri Lankan Airways which is a OneWorld member. Sri Lankan does have a good coverage of India.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:04 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Does AA have any potential partners in India?


Not in India but they do have Sri Lankan Airways which is a OneWorld member. Sri Lankan does have a good coverage of India.



Yeah but it's a back track, Sri Lanka to DFW is just too far.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
FSDan
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:05 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Does AA have any potential partners in India?


BA flies from LHR to DEL, BOM, HYD, BLR, and MAA. That covers the biggest markets for AA.

Regarding 9W's collapse, I would tend to think that will make it less likely that DL will serve BOM nonstop. I think a big part of their gameplan was to be able to sell connections to lots of cities in India via BOM... Who knows, maybe the drop in capacity will encourage them to step in and make a play for the BOM-originating traffic. They should have some data regarding India-originating traffic that had been flying via LHR/CDG/AMS to various destinations in the U.S. via the 9W-DL-AF/KL partnership.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
klm617
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Yes but according to a.net Delta's aspirations to serve India all rested on the route network of Jet Airways. One would think that Delta would have did a better job researching the partner they chose. It's little different with Delta because they are considered to be the financial geniuses of the airline world again according to a.net.


There was no doubt 9W was DL's silver bullet to recapture US-India market share from ME3. For the most part, it worked. AF/KL is pretty much saddled with union issues. VS was not in a position to expand India network. Air India is tainted goods.

What other options DL has?

DL has phenomenal premium feed. I believe ATL to BOM could work without Indian participation.

However, DL adapts. Considering the Indian portion of the trip is under 2 hours, they could partner with anyone. Now due to alliances/ownership, I rule out Air India, Vistara, and Air Asia. While an ULCC has less appeal, it could be package to work.

Do recall bridge hubbing is fading (two or more connections). With the sudden spike in fares in/out of India, now is the time to launch service. DL has time to partner for connections. They might pick 2 partners...

This is an opportunity. Besides, SpiceJet might discover they want to keep the fat seats.

Lightsaber


I know everyone likes to cheer on ATL as being able to make any route work but the fact is ATL-India hasn't worked yet for Delta and with TK and QR in the mix now out of ATL I really think that ATL-BOM would be a big money loser. Delta needs to go where the competition is thin and they have a lot of feed and pricing power plus a good O/D market to make India work and that isn't JFK or ATL
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:08 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Does AA have any potential partners in India?


Not in India but they do have Sri Lankan Airways which is a OneWorld member. Sri Lankan does have a good coverage of India.


Vistara cannot be ruled out. Just b/c they're own by SQ (and Tata Sons) doesn't mean Vistara has to be 100% *A. Vistara codeshare with BA and JL right now (along with SQ/MI, of course).

But yes, BA at LHR got India covers pretty well from the East Coast, while CX at HKG covers things fairly well out of West Coast (although CX-AA codeshare only cover MAA, BOM, and DEL) There's always QR also.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:14 pm

Typical A.net - so American centric.

9W have been around for a long time and are an important cog in the Indian aviation story. All of that is much more worth remembering today than DL or AA ever launching an India route, and the airline they would have a handshake with if they do.

I'm not saying that is irrelevant, just that there are other threads for the same.
Vahroone
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:18 pm

Really sad about Jet's employees and passengers with tickets on hand who most probably will lose their money.
Another very bad day for the 737 MAX as well with 200 orders vanishing into thin air and Indian market becoming even more NEO centered.
 
LondonXtreme
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:18 pm

The route like LHR-BOM will be mostly affected. 9W offers 2 daily LHR-BOM now, after shutdown, only BA(2 daily) and AI(1 daily) serve this route with huge reduction of capacity. Will VS come back to BOM to pick up some leftovers?
Last edited by LondonXtreme on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:21 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Really sad about Jet's employees and passengers with tickets on hand who most probably will lose their money.
Another very bad day for the 737 MAX as well with 200 orders vanishing into thin air and Indian market becoming even more NEO centered.


eventually India will need those 200 a/c. Only thing is which airline will get them

LondonXtreme wrote:
The route like LHR-BOM will be mostly affected. 9W offers 2 daily LHR-BOM now, after shutdown, only BA(2 daily) and AI(1 daily) serve this route with huge reduction of capacity. Will VS come back to BOM to pick some leftovers?


See this: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 913433.cms
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:28 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
Typical A.net - so American centric.

9W have been around for a long time and are an important cog in the Indian aviation story.


Wasn't everyone from India arguing that 9W is irrelevant to Indian aviation and other healthy and capable airlines can fill the vacuum?

The only ones hoping that 9W would survive are passengers who get transferred from its international code-share partners and being mocked by others.

Now coming and saying it was an important part of Indian aviation is ironic.
 
VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Re LHR:
Doesn't AI still run their AMD-LHR on the Dreamliner? Not sure how the a/c is currently routed but can this be a tag on to BOM and add capacity assuming slot constraints at LHR?
 
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clickhappy
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:52 pm

lightsaber wrote:
In the prior thread I estimated it was over-served by 50 to 70 aircraft just as it is now under-served by 50 to 70 aircraft. Growth is fast in India, so another 8 to 14 additional aircraft are needed every month. So while over 50 additional aircraft will serve the market by end of summer (mostly SpiceJet and Indigo), it will take, per my estimate, 15 to 24 months for the market to be correctly served.
Lightsaber
[/quote]

This quote doesn't make any sense. If the market was oversized by 50 aircraft, and then you take 50 aircraft away, you have achieved equilibrium.

If the market was truly overserved, replacing the lost capacity will once again make it overserved. Indian carriers should focus on yields before growth.
 
acavpics
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:56 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Really sad about Jet's employees and passengers with tickets on hand who most probably will lose their money.
Another very bad day for the 737 MAX as well with 200 orders vanishing into thin air and Indian market becoming even more NEO centered.


Only now am I realizing that SG is going to be the only Indian user of the 737 in general.


Still bummed that I never got to try 9W's wide bodies and long haul flights. I think we can all agree that during its better days, Jet had the best quality food on domestic flights.
I still remember the days when most of my family's domestic travel on India trips would be on 9W/S2 and good ole Indian Airlines (IC) - I hope none of us have forgotten about them with their bright red "IA" tails. :lol: ;) Sad that both, along with Kingfisher, are now in the graveyard.

Here is a link to a picture from BLR in 2009. The front 3 tails are all of defunct airlines. :vomit: :vomit:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4045985141
 
hohd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:00 pm

Regarding the route length in India, many Indian domestic flights are now over 3 hours, DEL-TRV/COK, GAU-COK/BLR/BOM, DEL-Port Blair (nearly 4 hours) and these are not short distances. DL if it wants to can partner with anyone, including SpiceJet or Indigo, however Vistara would be the best choice as they already sell itineraries on Vistara from DEL and Vistara has premium economy for the business class customers.
 
behramjee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:05 pm

I don’t think 9Ws 77Ws will find homes easily because they are in a 3 class configuration and there are few airlines left now offering a F class cabin on board this aircraft type. It would be an expensive proposition for a dual class carrier like DL to reconfigure these B77Ws as per their cabin requirements.

However I feel 9Ws 4 A333s seating 293 pax ie 34J + 259Y should find homes very fast with preference given to an airline that would want to purchase all the jets together. I foresee DL and TK being the front runners for the 4 A333s.
Last edited by behramjee on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
samshik88
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:09 pm

klm617 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

There was no doubt 9W was DL's silver bullet to recapture US-India market share from ME3. For the most part, it worked. AF/KL is pretty much saddled with union issues. VS was not in a position to expand India network. Air India is tainted goods.

What other options DL has?

DL has phenomenal premium feed. I believe ATL to BOM could work without Indian participation.

However, DL adapts. Considering the Indian portion of the trip is under 2 hours, they could partner with anyone. Now due to alliances/ownership, I rule out Air India, Vistara, and Air Asia. While an ULCC has less appeal, it could be package to work.

Do recall bridge hubbing is fading (two or more connections). With the sudden spike in fares in/out of India, now is the time to launch service. DL has time to partner for connections. They might pick 2 partners...

This is an opportunity. Besides, SpiceJet might discover they want to keep the fat seats.

Lightsaber


I know everyone likes to cheer on ATL as being able to make any route work but the fact is ATL-India hasn't worked yet for Delta and with TK and QR in the mix now out of ATL I really think that ATL-BOM would be a big money loser. Delta needs to go where the competition is thin and they have a lot of feed and pricing power plus a good O/D market to make India work and that isn't JFK or ATL


I agree... I think MSP might be a suitable candidate or even BOS. Not sure what else in the DL network would work at all. :bigthumbsup:
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:11 pm

klm617 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

There was no doubt 9W was DL's silver bullet to recapture US-India market share from ME3. For the most part, it worked. AF/KL is pretty much saddled with union issues. VS was not in a position to expand India network. Air India is tainted goods.

What other options DL has?

DL has phenomenal premium feed. I believe ATL to BOM could work without Indian participation.

However, DL adapts. Considering the Indian portion of the trip is under 2 hours, they could partner with anyone. Now due to alliances/ownership, I rule out Air India, Vistara, and Air Asia. While an ULCC has less appeal, it could be package to work.

Do recall bridge hubbing is fading (two or more connections). With the sudden spike in fares in/out of India, now is the time to launch service. DL has time to partner for connections. They might pick 2 partners...

This is an opportunity. Besides, SpiceJet might discover they want to keep the fat seats.

Lightsaber


I know everyone likes to cheer on ATL as being able to make any route work but the fact is ATL-India hasn't worked yet for Delta and with TK and QR in the mix now out of ATL I really think that ATL-BOM would be a big money loser. Delta needs to go where the competition is thin and they have a lot of feed and pricing power plus a good O/D market to make India work and that isn't JFK or ATL


Look at their financials - they are slaughtering everyone profit wise. Clearly what they are doing is working.

The math doesnt lie.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:13 pm

A link on Pune slot distribution:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... s-of-slots

To be blunt, if Pune doesn't reallocate quickly, their business suffers.

What other airports have precious slots where a large fraction were assigned to 9W? DXB, HKG, PUN

Where else? I'm not aware of a large presence of 9W at BLR or MAA (later more gate limited, but still constrained).

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

Any announcements from Jet's unions?

acavpics wrote:
Only now am I realizing that SG is going to be the only Indian user of the 737 in general.

Air India express operates 737s.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
acavpics
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:15 pm

samshik88 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
DL has phenomenal premium feed. I believe ATL to BOM could work without Indian participation.

However, DL adapts. Considering the Indian portion of the trip is under 2 hours, they could partner with anyone. Now due to alliances/ownership, I rule out Air India, Vistara, and Air Asia. While an ULCC has less appeal, it could be package to work.

Do recall bridge hubbing is fading (two or more connections). With the sudden spike in fares in/out of India, now is the time to launch service. DL has time to partner for connections. They might pick 2 partners...

This is an opportunity. Besides, SpiceJet might discover they want to keep the fat seats.

Lightsaber


I know everyone likes to cheer on ATL as being able to make any route work but the fact is ATL-India hasn't worked yet for Delta and with TK and QR in the mix now out of ATL I really think that ATL-BOM would be a big money loser. Delta needs to go where the competition is thin and they have a lot of feed and pricing power plus a good O/D market to make India work and that isn't JFK or ATL


I agree... I think MSP might be a suitable candidate or even BOS. Not sure what else in the DL network would work at all. :bigthumbsup:


I think their JFK would triumph over MSP or BOS any day for an India flight.
 
Iluvtofly
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:15 pm

Antarius wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
winginit wrote:
To bring things back on topic, what happens to Jet's 77Ws? With an average age of 11 years they aren't spring chickens but curious as to where they might end up. Apologies if that was already brought up in the previous thread.

A fair question. So far used 77Ws haven't had much trouble finding a home. However, I believe this is enough additional 77Ws to suddenly hit the market, combined with A350 and 787 production, that the used pricing of 77Ws just took a hit.


I could see BA snapping them up. They just picked up a few more 77Ws and seem to be quite happy with them.


When did BA do this and from whom ?
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:17 pm

So far, 48 planes haves progressed to the request for deregister:
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1RT1FY

I assume the others must age past grounding? What is the law? E.g , two weeks after request to ground a plane can be deregistered?

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:29 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Call me crazy but I don't see DL and crew transferring pax to Spice or Indigo in EU for onward to India - but who knows


Nothing is impossible, Air France-KLM codeshares with more LCCs. For example GOL in Brazil and FlySafair in South Africa. And of course on their home turf some flights are operated by Transavia.

How are IndiGo and SpiceJet different from GOL and FlySafair?


I think I wasn't clear in my earlier post. I absolutely think Delta can partner with any of the domestic Indian airlines for domestic flights. I was referring to flights from the EU to India - so CDG-BOM, CDG-MAA, AMS-BOM, AMS-DEL etc. I almost exclusively fly Delta and their partners. I actually preferred flying DL to LHR, AMS and CDG (my last choice) and then connecting to Jet to fly to BOM. I prefer Jet over flying AF or KL to BOM any day for J class travel. I would never fly Delta JFK-AMS and then connect to a Spice Jet 737 flying AMS-BOM. That is what I meant. On an other note - Jet flew 3X LHR-BOM and there is no VS on the reroute (I used these flights a lot and loved the timing flexibility). KLM is not daily on AMS-BOM and they have a terrible 4am departure from BOM. Finally there is AF - read Joon - flying CDG-BOM. AF just never got India right. French people like the flight but AF has always struggled on the route (they have had horrible customer service issues in CDG with Indian pax). So unless DL and team step up, there is a massive downgrade in India coverage for their frequent flyers (btw I switched from AA to DL because they had good India (meaning BOM) coverage).
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:33 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
Typical A.net - so American centric.

9W have been around for a long time and are an important cog in the Indian aviation story.


Wasn't everyone from India arguing that 9W is irrelevant to Indian aviation and other healthy and capable airlines can fill the vacuum?

The only ones hoping that 9W would survive are passengers who get transferred from its international code-share partners and being mocked by others.

Now coming and saying it was an important part of Indian aviation is ironic.


Totally and 100% agree. "Mocked" is being polite. I think the main goal of some on this forum was to have Jet close. They feel they got that so can move on. What ever. While I think chances are very low, Jet still could make a come back if the courts let things get sold off. I actually think this is really bad for Indian business. It shows that India doesn't have financial systems that foster business and can deal with bankruptcies through a process rather than shut down.

Btw - the thread is mislabeled. Jet is actually not "Shut Down". They have suspended flying. The company is not shut down. It continues to rack up more liabilities. Employees are still employees. If we care about accuracy over a dramatic titles, the thread should be retitled. But I don't really care...just saying.
Last edited by CaliguyNYC on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SoCalFlyer
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:36 pm

Will Jetblue be able to acquire their AMS, and LHR slots? I know they’re looking and none were available, but now there’s going to be quite a few at AMS at least becoming available. Also how many slots did they have at LHR?
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