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juliuswong
Moderator
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:13 am

marcogr12 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
I don’t think 9Ws 77Ws will find homes easily because they are in a 3 class configuration and there are few airlines left now offering a F class cabin on board this aircraft type. It would be an expensive proposition for a dual class carrier like DL to reconfigure these B77Ws as per their cabin requirements.

However I feel 9Ws 4 A333s seating 293 pax ie 34J + 259Y should find homes very fast with preference given to an airline that would want to purchase all the jets together. I foresee DL and TK being the front runners for the 4 A333s.


Isn't AC also on the prowl for more used A333s? They need to replace the ageing 763s of their Rouge subsidiary and Air Transat needs to replace the A310s...And with the engine problems of the 787s, i think these A333s would be an excellent interim solution for many airlines, methinks

The recent A333 AC took in are all RR powered and all ex-SQ. They would source again from same source if they want more. 9W are GE powered, only few are flying those GE powered A333, but not as rare as PW.
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Philippine747
Posts: 157
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:16 am

marcogr12 wrote:
behramjee wrote:
I don’t think 9Ws 77Ws will find homes easily because they are in a 3 class configuration and there are few airlines left now offering a F class cabin on board this aircraft type. It would be an expensive proposition for a dual class carrier like DL to reconfigure these B77Ws as per their cabin requirements.

However I feel 9Ws 4 A333s seating 293 pax ie 34J + 259Y should find homes very fast with preference given to an airline that would want to purchase all the jets together. I foresee DL and TK being the front runners for the 4 A333s.


Isn't AC also on the prowl for more used A333s? They need to replace the ageing 763s of their Rouge subsidiary and Air Transat needs to replace the A310s...And with the engine problems of the 787s, i think these A333s would be an excellent interim solution for many airlines, methinks


IIRC 9W's A333s are GE powered, while AC's are RRs. I don't think AC will take the time to invest in new spares...
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Andy33
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:24 am

himmat01 wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
Will Jetblue be able to acquire their AMS, and LHR slots? I know they’re looking and none were available, but now there’s going to be quite a few at AMS at least becoming available. Also how many slots did they have at LHR?

LHR slots were leased from Etihad. They will be used by EY,


Or of course EY can lease them to other airlines if they have no immediate use for them. What they can't do is just sit there. If the slots aren't used on 80% of all possible dates, they are forfeited without compensation. There were 4 slot pairs at LHR last year, one has already been reclaimed by its owner Virgin Atlantic and is being used by Flybe/VirginConnect, the other three belong to Etihad and were in use by Jet until last week. Could JetBlue buy them off Etihad. Of course, if they offer enough money. Then JetBlue have the problem of finding another airline to fly the slots for two years until they are ready to operate transatlantic flights (no suitable planes delivered yet, no ETOPs approval). Etihad on the other hand can always put on extra flights to Abu Dhabi in the short term, there's no restriction in the UK-UAE bilateral, assuming they have spare planes and crews to do it.
 
theaviator380
Posts: 611
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:46 am

Slightly off topic / basic question..

Why does EK not interested in codeshare with Indian carriers?

I am aware EK serves many Indian cities (perhaps most number of Indians cities served by a Non Indian carrier?) but there are places like Pune, Lucknow, Bhopal, Goa, Jaipur with decent market capacity where EK cannot go/reach directly for reason or another?

Thanks.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:57 am

theaviator380 wrote:
Slightly off topic / basic question..

Why does EK not interested in codeshare with Indian carriers?

I am aware EK serves many Indian cities (perhaps most number of Indians cities served by a Non Indian carrier?) but there are places like Pune, Lucknow, Bhopal, Goa, Jaipur with decent market capacity where EK cannot go/reach directly for reason or another?

Thanks.


EK and other gulf carriers have very poor relations with 6E and SG because of bilateral seat agreements
 
Philippine747
Posts: 157
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:57 am

theaviator380 wrote:
Slightly off topic / basic question..

Why does EK not interested in codeshare with Indian carriers?

I am aware EK serves many Indian cities (perhaps most number of Indians cities served by a Non Indian carrier?) but there are places like Pune, Lucknow, Bhopal, Goa, Jaipur with decent market capacity where EK cannot go/reach directly for reason or another?

Thanks.


Wasn't there some controversy a few years ago over EK's expansion into India, which was blocked?
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VTCIE
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:13 am

theaviator380 wrote:
Slightly off topic / basic question..

Why does EK not interested in codeshare with Indian carriers?

I am aware EK serves many Indian cities (perhaps most number of Indians cities served by a Non Indian carrier?) but there are places like Pune, Lucknow, Bhopal, Goa, Jaipur with decent market capacity where EK cannot go/reach directly for reason or another?

Thanks.

Remember that EK co-operates closely with FZ. FZ mostly flies to destinations already served by EK, with the exception of LKO, which is too small to handle an EK 777. There is no need to co-operate with 6E, SG, G8, etc. when there is one already in the house.

That said, FZ ought to start flights to PNQ, BHO, IDR, JAI, GOI, etc.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
VTCIE
Posts: 293
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:15 am

theaviator380 wrote:
Slightly off topic / basic question..

Why does EK not interested in codeshare with Indian carriers?

I am aware EK serves many Indian cities (perhaps most number of Indians cities served by a Non Indian carrier?) but there are places like Pune, Lucknow, Bhopal, Goa, Jaipur with decent market capacity where EK cannot go/reach directly for reason or another?

Thanks.

Remember that EK co-operates closely with flydubai. FZ mostly flies to destinations already served by EK, with the exception of LKO, which is too small to handle an EK 777. There is no need to co-operate with 6E, SG, G8, etc. when there is one already in the house.

That said, FZ ought to start flights to PNQ, BHO, IDR, JAI, GOI, etc. Note that FZ serves/served IXC, and note also that QR flies to ATQ, NAG and GOI, despite the highly-restricted India-Qatar BASAs, thereby preventing a second daily flight from DOH to BOM/BLR.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
VTCIE
Posts: 293
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:16 am

theaviator380 wrote:
Slightly off topic / basic question..

Why does EK not interested in codeshare with Indian carriers?

I am aware EK serves many Indian cities (perhaps most number of Indians cities served by a Non Indian carrier?) but there are places like Pune, Lucknow, Bhopal, Goa, Jaipur with decent market capacity where EK cannot go/reach directly for reason or another?

Thanks.

Remember that EK co-operates closely with flydubai. FZ mostly flies to destinations already served by EK, with the exception of LKO, which is too small to handle an EK 777. There is no need to co-operate with 6E, SG, G8, etc. when there is one already in the house.

That said, FZ ought to start flights to PNQ, BHO, IDR, JAI, GOI, GAU, etc. Note that FZ serves/served IXC, and note also that QR flies to ATQ, NAG and GOI, despite the highly-restricted India-Qatar BASAs, thereby preventing a second daily flight from DOH to BOM and BLR.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:58 am

9W's stock today trades around 160-165 INR, a drop of more than 30% from previous trading day close. I still think its is much overvalued I I have doubts that current shareholder will get much value from the remaining process.
Any other thoughts how much value there will be left after all creditors have got their share?
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:11 am

Asiaflyer wrote:
Any other thoughts how much value there will be left after all creditors have got their share?

Nothing. There isn't much cash or equity or assets left in the company
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
smartplane
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:22 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
It appears 9W still has $140 Million debt on 10 x 77Ws. If owners can get these deregistered, they can be fixed and cabins refitted for another $6 Million each. Even if they sell at $30 Million/frame, not a bad deal.

Is it possible to negotiate a deal to give back like 4x77Ws in lieu of $140 Million debt and let Jet keep the rest?

9W has multiple fixed and floating charges on the 77W's (and A330's). The amount you refer to is the residual debt specifically related to the purchase of the aircraft and related costs. There is no equity in the 77W's, so the answer is no.
 
ameya
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:29 am

Can Jet Airways fly again? Indian aviation history suggests it won’t

As a B737-800 (VT-SJI) landed in Mumbai from Amritsar, ahead of schedule in the intervening night of April 17 and 18, it marked the last time a Jet Airways aircraft would touch down for some time. The aircraft ironically was operating under the Air Operating Permit (AOP) of Jetlite – a 100 percent subsidiary — carved out of the erstwhile Air Sahara, the acquisition widely believed to have launched the beginning of the end of the airline.

A similar acquisition by Kingfisher Airlines of Air Deccan was largely blamed for the collapse of Kingfisher – which took hospitality in Indian skies to new levels and set up a race with Jet Airways. While Jet survived 2012, with friendly policy changes and funds from Etihad, time will tell if 2019 will be as lucky as 2012.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:34 am

ameya wrote:
Analysis: What is left of Jet Airways and would it interest a potential buyer?

In the end, Jet Airways could not avert a shutdown. Whether it is temporary or permanent, we will know soon.

Only a new buyer can take Jet back to the skies. But the big question — is Jet still attractive to a potential buyer?

The Jet group holds two Air Operating Permits (AOP). Jet Airways (India) Limited has its AOP valid up to February 12, 2023 while Jetlite (India) Ltd – which is a 100 percent subsidiary of Jet Airways — has its licence valid up to December 31, 2022.

This gives ample time for the airline to find a suitor, but that’s on paper. There is little left of the airline if it loses all the slots, night parking permissions and bilateral rights.


Hey dude congrats for getting your articles on CNBC. Your blog was always enjoyable!
 
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SQ789
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:55 am

While taxiing at CGK today, I saw numbers of Jet Airways 737-800's are stored near the GMF hangar and the registration that I saw first was VT-JTD. I was flying on Lion.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
DIJKKIJK
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:33 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
How large of a gap left behind are we talking here? Here in AMS Jet Airways has a pretty large presence, I can only imagine India will feel it immensely? Unfamiliar with the entirety of Jet Airways' situation, sorry.


They had exactly four flights a day from AMS. How is that a 'pretty large presence'?
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:58 am

Whilst many here seem to be quite happy selling things that don't belong to Jet, it really isn't a great week for GECAS either. They are doing a repo on Jet aircraft and also Avianca Brazil.

That's a big chunk of money down the drain as they can't re-lease them for factory new rates. In both countries work is progressing to de-register aircraft and make them ready for export. The future of the 9W fleet will potentially be outside India. One possible tyre-kicker might be Air Italy and various smaller African carriers for the 737s and even A330s.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:05 pm

Just a shower thought: Given that the principal beneficiaries of Jet's below cost fares and on board largesses were Indians residing abroad, shouldn't they try to crowd source a fund to rescue their beloved carrier? After all Indians are among richest immigrant groups wherever they live. They should put their money where their mouths are.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
The99Percent
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:11 pm

unrave wrote:
Just a shower thought: Given that the principal beneficiaries of Jet's below cost fares and on board largesses were Indians residing abroad, shouldn't they try to crowd source a fund to rescue their beloved carrier? After all Indians are among richest immigrant groups wherever they live. They should put their money where their mouths are.

I don't think Jet was ever that beloved among NRIs. I think most Indians residing abroad consider someone like EK as India's national airline :P
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:16 pm

The99Percent wrote:
I don't think Jet was ever that beloved among NRIs. I think most Indians residing abroad consider someone like EK as India's national airline :P

Perhaps it is a BOM/DEL thing then? The most vocal supporters of Jet seem to be from outside India though. They usually advocate socialism in the form of govt hand outs to help Jet while they themselves reap the benefits of living on capitalistic economies.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:32 pm

Interesting article published in Economic Times. Apparently NG sought the wisdom of likes of Deepak Parekh, the founder of HDFC. His suggestion to ‘retire’ did not go very well with NG. Surprise!

What is surprising was that Dubey stayed till the end. Feel sorry for the man. Perhaps he was sent by Delta to try and put some sense in their partner.

This will be a difficult void for DL to fill now that AA and QR are bhai-bhai.
 
acavpics
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:33 pm

How empty have BOM's terminal 2 and DEL T3 become at this point? - I'm guessing that they are pretty much ghost towns during the daytime domestic rush hours now.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:35 pm

unrave wrote:
The99Percent wrote:
I don't think Jet was ever that beloved among NRIs. I think most Indians residing abroad consider someone like EK as India's national airline :P

Perhaps it is a BOM/DEL thing then? The most vocal supporters of Jet seem to be from outside India though. They usually advocate socialism in the form of govt hand outs to help Jet while they themselves reap the benefits of living on capitalistic economies.


No Unrave it is the mature pro-India aviation group that had no other agenda that supported Jet. I will speak for myself now, my trip summaries of my flights with Jet were the truth. Their operations out of AMS, CDG and LHR were great (again not super lux but better than KLM and AF but below DL). Their BOM hub is a pleasure to fly through (again not the best but better than so many airports). I have no agenda - zero - other than the truth and a curiosity on what the hell is going on with Indian aviation. You think Jet failed here? India failed here, and it is a further indictment on the Indian business elites. It shows that India's economy is not mature enough to save jobs, save economic links. All the investment made in Jet (be it debt or equity or sweat capital) is lost. The GOI sold nothing of Jet. Nothing. That is a big failure. It reenforces that India is all about crony capitalism. Just look at the posters here thinking selling off assets to a new owner is a bailout (because the sale must be corrupt and being sent to a political ally). There are tons of selfish agendas on the India thread. That is a fact. And your anti-NRI posts are almost comical in how they shape your world view. I think it says a lot that some of us who are born abroad of Indian decent know so much of India aviation (because we have been flying back and forth since the 70's) and actual care to be engaged. But mock us / demean us all you want. Btw while I am not anti any city in India, I will grant you I am pro-BOM. Do I think it is the best city in India - hell yeah. I am so glad my family settled as refugees in South Bombay. Most modern, progressive, open minded while Indian people in the country. Peace.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:37 pm

winginit wrote:
danipawa wrote:
AA and UA are getting frames from second market, so the 777W fleet could be an option for them


Current gen widebodies though? I'm unaware of any second-hand 77Ws in either UA or AA's fleet.


UA could choose to expand its B77W fleet though; at least some of the 9W B77Ws are likely nearing a stage where a D-check is needed, and Citibank could probably reach a deal to get these frames off their books.
 
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B747fanReal
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:42 pm

This was quite unexpected

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Air India requesting SBI to lease Five of Jet Airways’ Boeing 777-300ER


Sent from my iPhone XS MAX using Tapatalk
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:54 pm

All the investment made in Jet (be it debt or equity or sweat capital) is lost. The GOI sold nothing of Jet. Nothing. That is a big failure. It reenforces that India is all about crony capitalism


Why is it the GoI responsible for this? We've seen a perfect case study called Air India where government(s) have repeatedly shown an inability to understand or manage aviation.

9W was a financially unsustainable company and therefore met the natural end. The government should not have stepped in as it would have created a bloated mess like Air India.
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:04 pm

Antarius wrote:
All the investment made in Jet (be it debt or equity or sweat capital) is lost. The GOI sold nothing of Jet. Nothing. That is a big failure. It reenforces that India is all about crony capitalism


Why is it the GoI responsible for this? We've seen a perfect case study called Air India where government(s) have repeatedly shown an inability to understand or manage aviation.

9W was a financially unsustainable company and therefore met the natural end. The government should not have stepped in as it would have created a bloated mess like Air India.


They are not responsible for it. Virgin bought Flybe for like $1M. You sell off what you have to recoup your losses. But in India if they would have sold off the 77W and BOM slots for say $500M, people would have gone crazy that the buyer got some special deal. So instead they just close Jet. Most businesses are not liquidated by shutting them down and not selling things off.
 
VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:10 pm

B747fanReal wrote:
This was quite unexpected

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Air India requesting SBI to lease Five of Jet Airways’ Boeing 777-300ER

2 of their own 77Ws haven't flown for like 8 months and they want to lease 5 from Jet? Oh Air India..... :banghead:
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:11 pm

I feel for the employees, some of whom have been with the airline since it's inception- 25 years back. Some from day 1 at the airlines start. Many fear they won't be employable again because of their age factor, as other airlines prefer to hire younger employees. Sad.

Save Our Family: Angry Employees Protest As Jet Airways Grounded
https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ed-2025128

Teary-Eyed Employees Plea For Its Revival
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/photogallery/india/jet-airways-grounded-teary-eyed-employees-plea-for-revival-2107971.html
Last edited by avier on Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hohd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:13 pm

acavpics wrote:
How empty have BOM's terminal 2 and DEL T3 become at this point? - I'm guessing that they are pretty much ghost towns during the daytime domestic rush hours now.

Definitely not DEL T3, Jet was just another airline. Even BOM T2 has plenty of activity even without Jet. BOM and DEL can never become ghost towns unless more than 2 airlines stop services.
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:20 pm

B747fanReal wrote:
This was quite unexpected

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Air India requesting SBI to lease Five of Jet Airways’ Boeing 777-300ER
LAX or IAH or DFW incoming? Where else would they send those machines?
 
yashk
Posts: 78
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:26 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
B747fanReal wrote:
This was quite unexpected

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Air India requesting SBI to lease Five of Jet Airways’ Boeing 777-300ER
LAX or IAH or DFW incoming? Where else would they send those machines?

The article says Delhi to London, Dubai and Singapore and Bombay to London and Dubai. Can someone correct me but Jet’s 777s can not make it to the US.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:26 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
B747fanReal wrote:
This was quite unexpected

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Air India requesting SBI to lease Five of Jet Airways’ Boeing 777-300ER
LAX or IAH or DFW incoming? Where else would they send those machines?


Their priority should be to add DEL/BOM-LHR with or without Jet metal. No foreign airline can cater to the loyal Indian elite.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:33 pm

The economic times article clearly shows the overarching control of Goyal family in running the airline to the ground. It has had a string of losses since 2008. If people can praise Goyal for managing to run Jet for 25 years, they also need to assign blame for the airline shutting down. If Goyal has let go of the airline even 6 months back, things might have been different. Of course for people known to pull numbers from where sun doesn’t shine, & have piss-poor knowledge of any business or rules in India, everything can be blamed on the govt.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:40 pm

blrsea wrote:
The economic times article clearly shows the overarching control of Goyal family in running the airline to the ground. It has had a string of losses since 2008. If people can praise Goyal for managing to run Jet for 25 years, they also need to assign blame for the airline shutting down. If Goyal has let go of the airline even 6 months back, things might have been different. Of course for people known to pull numbers from where sun doesn’t shine, & have piss-poor knowledge of any business or rules in India, everything can be blamed on the govt.


Etihad tried to modernise the management. He didn't listen.
Deepak Parekh advised him to walk away. He didn't listen.
Tatas were keen on acquiring with the condition that NG walks away. He didn't listen.
There was a decent offer to buy his ATRs. He stalled on valuation.
Delta offered to buy a stake. He stalled on valuation.

A man with such a large ego deserves to go down.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
YouGeeElWhy
Posts: 411
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:41 pm

yashk wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
B747fanReal wrote:
This was quite unexpected

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... ign=iOSapp

Air India requesting SBI to lease Five of Jet Airways’ Boeing 777-300ER
LAX or IAH or DFW incoming? Where else would they send those machines?

The article says Delhi to London, Dubai and Singapore and Bombay to London and Dubai. Can someone correct me but Jet’s 777s can not make it to the US.
I read that article but did not take it seriously considering the quality of AV reporting in India. Where is AI going to get those slots for LHR? There is not much benefit in up gauging from a slightly smaller, much more fuel efficient plane they already fly into LHR. Flying a 77W between SIN/DXB does not sound believable either.

9W's 77Ws not making the US might be right too. Maybe Canada then or more destinations in Australia.
 
VTCIE
Posts: 293
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:05 pm

avier wrote:
I feel for the employees, some of whom have been with the airline since it's inception- 25 years back. Some from day 1 at the airlines start. Many fear they won't be employable again because of their age factor, as other airlines prefer to hire younger employees. Sad.

Save Our Family: Angry Employees Protest As Jet Airways Grounded
https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ed-2025128

Teary-Eyed Employees Plea For Its Revival
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/amp/photogallery/india/jet-airways-grounded-teary-eyed-employees-plea-for-revival-2107971.html

Absolutely heart-rending scenes. I do not know whether there was such an outburst of emotions when IT went under. By IT, I mean Kingfisher Airlines.

Another equally heart-wrenching video is this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbpXbkcgnCI

Whatever, 9W was a pillar in the Indian aviation sector, but the cement turned out to be compromised. The resulting crash has potentially killed thousands. I mean thousands of jobs, not—God forbid (as a result of unemployment)—lives.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:07 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
All the investment made in Jet (be it debt or equity or sweat capital) is lost. The GOI sold nothing of Jet. Nothing. That is a big failure. It reenforces that India is all about crony capitalism


Why is it the GoI responsible for this? We've seen a perfect case study called Air India where government(s) have repeatedly shown an inability to understand or manage aviation.

9W was a financially unsustainable company and therefore met the natural end. The government should not have stepped in as it would have created a bloated mess like Air India.


They are not responsible for it. Virgin bought Flybe for like $1M. You sell off what you have to recoup your losses. But in India if they would have sold off the 77W and BOM slots for say $500M, people would have gone crazy that the buyer got some special deal. So instead they just close Jet. Most businesses are not liquidated by shutting them down and not selling things off.


That's only if the government did it. If 9W reached a deal with the Tatas or EY or whomever they chose, the government would have zero involvement (beyond regulatory approval).

I'm not seeing the parallel. Flybe was sold after shareholder approval for whatever price they felt they could get for it. The government wasn't the one selling it.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
yashk
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:14 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
I read that article but did not take it seriously considering the quality of AV reporting in India. Where is AI going to get those slots for LHR? There is not much benefit in up gauging from a slightly smaller, much more fuel efficient plane they already fly into LHR. Flying a 77W between SIN/DXB does not sound believable either.

9W's 77Ws not making the US might be right too. Maybe Canada then or more destinations in Australia.

TOI directly quotes AI CMD on the 777 plans but yes it doesnt make sense on hand to have planes waiting for spares and on the other hand getting new planes. There might be some benefit though as AI has been using the 777 on BOM-LHR. Also, AI has additional slots for 3 weekly BLR-LHR
Source: https://livefromalounge.boardingarea.co ... expansion/
So from what i understand, indian carriers have flying rights for 4 daily flights into LHR now from DEL/BOM but no slots to operate them as Etihad owns the slots?
 
hohd
Posts: 749
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:20 pm

AI should fly to London first, but if that does not materialize due to slot issues, look to fly to Toronto non-stop from DEL (or BOM as a second choice) which Jet was flying from AMS. However with the air space restrictions they may have to stop on the westbound direction (may be BOM). I believe the plane can still make it eastbound. With limited ME3 flights to Toronto this would be good opportunity.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2554
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:26 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

But in India if they would have sold off the 77W and BOM slots for say $500M, people would have gone crazy that the buyer got some special deal. So instead they just close Jet. Most businesses are not liquidated by shutting them down and not selling things off.


Airport slots are not the property of the airline to be sold. When an airline fails its slots revert to the airport operator. And before you say it, I know airlines trade slots in LHR but India is not UK. BOM is not LHR. Let us discuss things the way they work in India.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
User avatar
unrave
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Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:39 pm

VTCIE wrote:

Another equally heart-wrenching video is this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbpXbkcgnCI


That is just blind hope and misplaced faith. He is an experienced 737 captain - every airline across Asia will be ready to welcome him. But Boeing boy here wants Indian taxpayers to pay his Rs. 3 lakh a month EMI for his Powai shoebox apartment.
Last edited by unrave on Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:43 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Whilst many here seem to be quite happy selling things that don't belong to Jet, it really isn't a great week for GECAS either. They are doing a repo on Jet aircraft and also Avianca Brazil.

That's a big chunk of money down the drain as they can't re-lease them for factory new rates. In both countries work is progressing to de-register aircraft and make them ready for export. The future of the 9W fleet will potentially be outside India. One possible tyre-kicker might be Air Italy and various smaller African carriers for the 737s and even A330s.


Noone expects GECAS throwing a party to celebrate repos. But what would you have them do? Extend and discount leases, despite months of unpaid lease bills, with knowledge of fuel bills and employee wages being in arrears, too? They cannot just waive lease debt and expect a delinquent lessee to conjure up a rescue plan, based on that...
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Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Andy33
Posts: 2391
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:49 pm

yashk wrote:
YouGeeElWhy wrote:
I read that article but did not take it seriously considering the quality of AV reporting in India. Where is AI going to get those slots for LHR? There is not much benefit in up gauging from a slightly smaller, much more fuel efficient plane they already fly into LHR. Flying a 77W between SIN/DXB does not sound believable either.

9W's 77Ws not making the US might be right too. Maybe Canada then or more destinations in Australia.

TOI directly quotes AI CMD on the 777 plans but yes it doesnt make sense on hand to have planes waiting for spares and on the other hand getting new planes. There might be some benefit though as AI has been using the 777 on BOM-LHR. Also, AI has additional slots for 3 weekly BLR-LHR
Source: https://livefromalounge.boardingarea.co ... expansion/
So from what i understand, indian carriers have flying rights for 4 daily flights into LHR now from DEL/BOM but no slots to operate them as Etihad owns the slots?


Etihad have repossessed three slots (presumably they haven't been paid the lease money either). The fourth slot was I think leased from Virgin Atlantic, who have already passed it on to Flybe/Virgin Connect and it is now being used for sa flight from LHR to IOM, so that's gone for good as far as India is concerned.
Technically Indian airlines have rights to fly to London, not LHR specifically, under the bilateral, so someone could apply for STN (and probably get it) or LGW (which is also short of slots).
 
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unrave
Posts: 2554
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:07 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Technically Indian airlines have rights to fly to London, not LHR specifically, under the bilateral, so someone could apply for STN (and probably get it) or LGW (which is also short of slots).

Is STN easily accessible from London city?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 17507
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:15 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Whilst many here seem to be quite happy selling things that don't belong to Jet, it really isn't a great week for GECAS either. They are doing a repo on Jet aircraft and also Avianca Brazil.

That's a big chunk of money down the drain as they can't re-lease them for factory new rates. In both countries work is progressing to de-register aircraft and make them ready for export. The future of the 9W fleet will potentially be outside India. One possible tyre-kicker might be Air Italy and various smaller African carriers for the 737s and even A330s.


Noone expects GECAS throwing a party to celebrate repos. But what would you have them do? Extend and discount leases, despite months of unpaid lease bills, with knowledge of fuel bills and employee wages being in arrears, too? They cannot just waive lease debt and expect a delinquent lessee to conjure up a rescue plan, based on that...

The present value of the Jet 77Ws released is ironically greater than if Jet had finished the lease. Yes, GECAS is short term out of money and will receive less per month, but overall they will make more. This is like defaulting in year 4 on a 5 year auto loan when the vehicle is still in good condition.

As far as Avianca, I do not know the details. Used 777s usually find homes with GE engines.

The aircraft now go to the highest bidder. The losses will be on the MAXes. I believe the 738s will be fine.

I don't see anyone celebrating. I would just like to know where aircraft go. Having that quantity of 738s and 77Ws will reduce resale value. But how much? $1 or $5 million? Combined with EK handing back 77Ws in quantity, I expect the widebody market to be harder hit. For 738s, the market is so huge, it will be closer to that $1.

I hope service is maintained. However, India was over-served in sir service, so some quantity of aircraft must leave the country. Except for what AI might buy or lease, I expect the 77Ws to leave India. Since I've read they want 5, that means 6 find new owners.

So where will 9W 777 pilots go?

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:17 pm

The UK-Indian Bilateral Agreement:
- Maximum 56 weekly flights (8 daily) between London Heathrow (LHR) and Delhi (DEL) and Mumbai (BOM) combined by a UK carrier
- Maximum 56 weekly flights (8 daily) between London Heathrow (LHR) and Delhi (DEL) and Mumbai (BOM) combined by an Indian carrier
- Unlimited amount of flights between London Heathrow (LHR) and any other point in India
- Unlimited amount of flights between any other point in the UK and any point in India

At present from Heathrow:
- UK carriers operate 35 weekly flights - BA 2 DEL, BA 2 BOM, VS 1 DEL
- Indian carriers operate 21 weekly flights - AI 2 DEL, AI 1 BOM

So any Indian carrier can still operate 35 weekly flights between London Heathrow and Delhi/Mumbai should slots be found (5 daily), whilst any British carrier can operate 21 additional weekly flights between London Heathrow and Delhi/Mumbai should slots be found
 
vadodara
Posts: 904
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:21 pm

Antarius wrote:
All the investment made in Jet (be it debt or equity or sweat capital) is lost. The GOI sold nothing of Jet. Nothing. That is a big failure. It reenforces that India is all about crony capitalism


Why is it the GoI responsible for this? We've seen a perfect case study called Air India where government(s) have repeatedly shown an inability to understand or manage aviation.

9W was a financially unsustainable company and therefore met the natural end. The government should not have stepped in as it would have created a bloated mess like Air India.


GoI by staying out did the right thing. Except for emotional reasons, 9W will be largely forgotten in a few months.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 17507
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:21 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

But in India if they would have sold off the 77W and BOM slots for say $500M, people would have gone crazy that the buyer got some special deal. So instead they just close Jet. Most businesses are not liquidated by shutting them down and not selling things off.


Airport slots are not the property of the airline to be sold. When an airline fails its slots revert to the airport operator. And before you say it, I know airlines trade slots in LHR but India is not UK. BOM is not LHR. Let us discuss things the way they work in India.

As noted, the LHR slots were leased. Indian law doesn't apply. Perhaps EY will lease the slots?

Pune slots are already going to first come first serve (Indigo and SpiceJet). BOM slots will find homes quickly. I expect SpiceJet and Indigo to gain the bulk.

DXB slots will be contested. SpiceJet, Air India, and Indigo will fight over the seat allocation (13,000/week now up for grabs mated to some very attractive times at DXB). Because it is India, I expect AI to do well for these.

The BOM slots could have been sold with the AOC back when Jet was viable. Now it is up in the air, with first come first served hard to fight. Possession is 9/10ths of the law...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2554
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:24 pm

vadodara wrote:

GoI by staying out did the right thing. Except for emotional reasons, 9W will be largely forgotten in a few months.

Absolutely. GoI should not care one bit if 9W lives or dies.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
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