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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:26 am

DTWLAX wrote:
Any idea how long will this take to get approved? I am guessing not until the election results are out and the new government has settled in.

It will take a couple of months.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:53 am

B747fanReal wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Lightsabe - you don’t lose LHR slots immeadiately either. Given india doesn’t seem to have a quick restructuring system, I think the goi did the right thing. The slots are temporary until the end of the summer season. Seemed fair, and guess what airlines responded
. What is the issue? The govt has not mentioned how they will hand out slots if Jet doesn’t come back. To say it is first come is fake news. Again correct me if I am wrong. And if it has been said you keep the slots if Jet doesn’t come back, I am fine with it. That said it is a missed opportunity. Airports hand out slots to increase competition and connectivity. Apparently this view is controversial here.
Why do I want the GOI to follow their own rules on the slots? It’s because as much value in Jet should be saved. The notion that you just shut something down and recover zero value is not how capitalism works in most of the world. Restructuring, while not perfect, is hardly some crazy concept. Goyal has been removed, which I support. The winner to any Jet sale seems to be the banks and the Indian tax payer. Not to mention any Jet employees that are kept. So what is the issue? Spice Jet can’t get something for free? Btw I support Spice’s restructuring before. Corruption aside, restructuring can work and can be good for the economy, the company and the employees.


The LHR slots were sold to Etihad in a prior bailout deal and Jet had those slots on lease from Etihad


Sent from my iPhone XS MAX using Tapatalk

Just to clarify: I wasn't talking LHR slots, those are owned by VS or EY. They are no longer Jet's concern as they don't posses. I was purely talking Indian, DXB, and HKG slots.

Fake news? I'm not going to waste time. A proper bankruptcy process would have started in October.
Slots have an 18 day shelf life (20% of a season). Jet won't be operating down.
It is a waste to shut down and recover no value. But you are arguing new rules on who recovers the value. There is no legal framework to sell or lease the slots as there is at LHR. India slots have no cash value. They are use them or lose them.

I would cheer a way to recoup high value from Jet. Within my understanding of Indian law, I do not know how.

Jet only owns the slots if they restart with 119 aircraft. If less, they own less. There is no legal means to sell Indian slots. They are operated or lost. DXB slots can be reallocated, but I suspect the SpiceJet Codeshare with EK will ensure they stay with SG.


I see India's bankruptcy law changing

Lightsaber
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Bhadra
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:57 am

AngMoh wrote:
In a normal world, there would have been a trading halt on Jet stock a long time ago. Why is trading Jet stock still possible in India? A stock market listed airline has suspended operations and the financial regulator thinks that trading should go on as usual?


I don't understand which 'normal world' you're referring to. A corporation suspending its operations doesn't require the regulator to halt trading. That's the norm - around the globe.
Now, there are other criteria to halt trading - those rules exist and are implemented in India, as they are elsewhere.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:20 am

lightsaber wrote:
I see India's bankruptcy law changing

Lightsaber

Just a nitpick for the sake of clarity: Bankruptcy process under IBC (Insolvency & Bankruptcy code) has still not been initiated for Jet. So, let's not imply that we should change a law that isn't being used for the issue at hand.

More important question is, why aren't we using a good (in my opinion) IBC that we have in this case?
Answer mostly lies in the reluctance of lenders to bring a pure services company, with almost no tangible/intangible assets before NCLT since that'd mean close to a 100% write-off.

The fundamental discussion that we should focus on is how to bring about a transition in lenders' mindset so they'd focus on long term shareholder return (to themselves) versus near term loan recovery. But then that requires some amount of confidence in the ability of a business to turnaround. Plus, having public sector lenders makes such a transition more chaotic since it's easy for anyone to allege a scam. You get where I'm going with this.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:56 am

Per Ajay Singh , owner of Spicejet, estimates 9W's total "gap" (owed value to all included) is around ~₹25K Cr . :shock:
This was when some lenders had informal talks with him about the ailing carrier and asked if he had any interest in that airline.

Full interview script here : https://m.economictimes.com/markets/expert-view/spicejet-got-nothing-other-than-moral-support-from-government-in-2014-ajay-singh/articleshow/69022776.cms
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:06 am

lightsaber wrote:
Just to clarify: I wasn't talking LHR slots, those are owned by VS or EY. They are no longer Jet's concern as they don't posses.
...
Jet only owns the slots if they restart with 119 aircraft. If less, they own less.
Lightsaber


There is an easy fix for the LHR slot issue. No LHR slots, no AUH feed, very simple.

9W can give up all slots except those to maintain Mumbai hub.

I sincerely see no way 9W restarting its ops. It's a dog eat dog business environment with political support.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:13 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
I sincerely see no way 9W restarting its ops.

Nobody does.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:53 am

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I sincerely see no way 9W restarting its ops.

Nobody does.

Hypothetical scenario: a representative from A.net, say Lightsaber, is interviewed by the media and is asked his opinion on whether 9W will be able to fly again or not. We all know there are no chances. But I simply cannot resist thinking about this hypothetical interview.

When talking to the media, it is simply not done to say that there is zero hope for an airline to restart operations, but A.netters—myself included—have always taken a glass-nine-tenths-empty approach to things, and rightly so. It would be an interesting clash of hope vs. truth.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:54 am

Bhadra wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see India's bankruptcy law changing

Lightsaber

Just a nitpick for the sake of clarity: Bankruptcy process under IBC (Insolvency & Bankruptcy code) has still not been initiated for Jet. So, let's not imply that we should change a law that isn't being used for the issue at hand.

More important question is, why aren't we using a good (in my opinion) IBC that we have in this case?
Answer mostly lies in the reluctance of lenders to bring a pure services company, with almost no tangible/intangible assets before NCLT since that'd mean close to a 100% write-off.

The fundamental discussion that we should focus on is how to bring about a transition in lenders' mindset so they'd focus on long term shareholder return (to themselves) versus near term loan recovery. But then that requires some amount of confidence in the ability of a business to turnaround. Plus, having public sector lenders makes such a transition more chaotic since it's easy for anyone to allege a scam. You get where I'm going with this.


Not to mention that these loans were given to Jet by state owned banks under political compulsions. What incentive does a bank CEO have to stick his (or her) neck out when NG was only willing to recycle a failed business case?

I thought the SBI chief stuck his neck out to resolve but Evidently NG’s inflated ego happens to be larger than 9W’s debts.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:01 pm

First, SpiceJet has hired almost a thousand Jet employees. As noted, Jet needs an incredible amount of cash to restart:

https://m.businesstoday.in/lite/story/a ... 40037.html

11,000 crore in debt or about $1.6 billion USD.
More is needed due to prepaid tickets, unpaid wages...

The expansion SpiceJet is performing should provide work for a few thousand ex-Jet employees. I happen to agree with the link that the jetfuel, services/parts taxes are hurting Indian airlines.

Although the #1 issue is competing with a heavily government funded entity. That won't change near term.

Bhadra wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I see India's bankruptcy law changing

Lightsaber

Just a nitpick for the sake of clarity: Bankruptcy process under IBC (Insolvency & Bankruptcy code) has still not been initiated for Jet. So, let's not imply that we should change a law that isn't being used for the issue at hand.

More important question is, why aren't we using a good (in my opinion) IBC that we have in this case?
Answer mostly lies in the reluctance of lenders to bring a pure services company, with almost no tangible/intangible assets before NCLT since that'd mean close to a 100% write-off.

The fundamental discussion that we should focus on is how to bring about a transition in lenders' mindset so they'd focus on long term shareholder return (to themselves) versus near term loan recovery. But then that requires some amount of confidence in the ability of a business to turnaround. Plus, having public sector lenders makes such a transition more chaotic since it's easy for anyone to allege a scam. You get where I'm going with this.

How is it that employees have gone unpaid without going into bankruptcy.
That is the first item that must be changed. While the rest of the law might or might not be clear, the fact non-executives worked months unpaid is wrong. So wrong I consider Indian bankruptcy law broken on just that issue.

I agree with you the focus needs to change to restart. But every day that goes by Jet is worth less. There must be a change in the law to force earlier reorganization when there is a chance to save the company.

It is being allowed to be such a mess I cannot see any recovery. If the 25,000 crore is required, or about 3.5 billion USD, there is no restart. Even with banks taking an 80% cut, the unpaid wages combined with 3,500+ crore of ticket refunds dooms the restart.

It is the Western mindset that unpaid wages define bankruptcy. What is the priority of payments? Secured assets just leave with unpaid rents I hope low priority.

How come now discussion in the press on the impact on the banking system? This default is significant enough to impact economic growth via reduced lending to other companies.

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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:13 pm

VTCIE wrote:
unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I sincerely see no way 9W restarting its ops.

Nobody does.

Hypothetical scenario: a representative from A.net, say Lightsaber, is interviewed by the media and is asked his opinion on whether 9W will be able to fly again or not. We all know there are no chances. But I simply cannot resist thinking about this hypothetical interview.

When talking to the media, it is simply not done to say that there is zero hope for an airline to restart operations, but A.netters—myself included—have always taken a glass-nine-tenths-empty approach to things, and rightly so. It would be an interesting clash of hope vs. truth.

The interviewee would be despised, so I wouldn't do it. If somehow I had to interview, ZI would emphasize it will be less painful if the airline restarts and that equity shall be issued to replace debt, including unpaid salary with debt holders, including the banks and unpaid employees, to hold on to say 25% of the company.

You are absolutely right about nothing being 100%. To clear that debt requires a crisp bankruptcy process; a reorganizational bankruptcy process. To my knowledge India doesn't have that crisp process.

I wish the employees luck. As I posted earlier in the thread, the need to accept reality and secure new jobs. The LCCs won't pay as well and will work them harder, but it is a paycheck. I wouldn't say it in the interview, but there is no hope of a Jet position for the bottom 60% of Jet employees (e.g., all copilot's).

I really want to know the wet lease terms SpiceJet signed. For to fly 22 ex-Jet 737s, they had to pay the leasing companies and pay employees. However, as soon as seats arrive, they should induct the planes into Jet. Are pilots promised an equivalent Jet position? (Captain to Captain). What about F/As? Technicians? Most of the overhead work (dispatch, accounting) would be handled by SpiceJet nmI assume. What I'm getting at is what is the transition plan to employment at SpiceJet. At what rate are the aircraft reconfigured into a SpiceJet configuration (hopefully with J, albeit fewer seats and high density Y).

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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The interviewee would be despised, so I wouldn't do it. If somehow I had to interview, ZI would emphasize it will be less painful if the airline restarts and that equity shall be issued to replace debt, including unpaid salary with debt holders, including the banks and unpaid employees, to hold on to say 25% of the company.

You are absolutely right about nothing being 100%. To clear that debt requires a crisp bankruptcy process; a reorganizational bankruptcy process. To my knowledge India doesn't have that crisp process.

I wish the employees luck. As I posted earlier in the thread, the need to accept reality and secure new jobs. The LCCs won't pay as well and will work them harder, but it is a paycheck. I wouldn't say it in the interview, but there is no hope of a Jet position for the bottom 60% of Jet employees (e.g., all copilot's).

I really want to know the wet lease terms SpiceJet signed. For to fly 22 ex-Jet 737s, they had to pay the leasing companies and pay employees. However, as soon as seats arrive, they should induct the planes into Jet. Are pilots promised an equivalent Jet position? (Captain to Captain). What about F/As? Technicians? Most of the overhead work (dispatch, accounting) would be handled by SpiceJet nmI assume. What I'm getting at is what is the transition plan to employment at SpiceJet. At what rate are the aircraft reconfigured into a SpiceJet configuration (hopefully with J, albeit fewer seats and high density Y).

Lightsaber


You seem to have too much hope on a law put together hastily to help friends and family. Per the law, bankruptcies are handled by a tribunal(NCLT) which also handles labor disputes. Not sure how capable these members are. The only reprieve is (NCALT) an appeal tribunal and finally SC of India. If the process is agile sure there will be a relief, otherwise it will be years before it goes to Supreme Court. The IBC law came into play because a lot of companies in the state of Gujarat were drowning in debt and Modi want to help them. Not to help Jet or any others.

If SpiceJet offers 2/3rds of their current salary and Dubai/China/Vietnam offers more than their current salary which one they are going to pick. Keep in mind, once you signup SpiceJet the one year CA/six month FO notice clock resets.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
The IBC law came into play because a lot of companies in the state of Gujarat were drowning in debt and Modi want to help them. Not to help Jet or any others.
.


Innuendo! Any proof?
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:48 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
If SpiceJet offers 2/3rds of their current salary and Dubai/China/Vietnam offers more than their current salary which one they are going to pick. Keep in mind, once you signup SpiceJet the one year CA/six month FO notice clock resets.

I say, this is absolutely preposterous. You have an established, settled home in Mumbai with a spouse and kids; you are in dire straits now that 9W is grounded; a job calls you to, say, HCMC to work for VietJetAir with a significantly higher salary.

Tell me, when shifting from Mumbai to Delhi is itself difficult, with readmitting the kids into a new school and all that, how about taking up a job in another country? Okay, even if there are no kids, taking up a job in a different country has its own complications.

Money is not the only consideration. Convenience must be factored in (and closeness to family for a non-flying—i.e., ground—job).
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:55 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
You seem to have too much hope on a law put together hastily to help friends and family. Per the law, bankruptcies are handled by a tribunal(NCLT) which also handles labor disputes. Not sure how capable these members are. The only reprieve is (NCALT) an appeal tribunal and finally SC of India. If the process is agile sure there will be a relief, otherwise it will be years before it goes to Supreme Court. The IBC law came into play because a lot of companies in the state of Gujarat were drowning in debt and Modi want to help them. Not to help Jet or any others.

Readers may kindly disregard this uninformed and non-factual take on the IBC law.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:00 pm

VTCIE wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If SpiceJet offers 2/3rds of their current salary and Dubai/China/Vietnam offers more than their current salary which one they are going to pick. Keep in mind, once you signup SpiceJet the one year CA/six month FO notice clock resets.

I say, this is absolutely preposterous. You have an established, settled home in Mumbai with a spouse and kids; you are in dire straits now that 9W is grounded; a job calls you to, say, HCMC to work for VietJetAir.

Tell me, when shifting from Mumbai to Delhi is itself difficult, with readmitting the kids into a new school and all that, how about taking up a job in another country? Will the family be able to shift wholesale?

Money is not the only consideration. Convenience and closeness to family must be factored in for a non-flying (i.e., ground) job.


Good in theory but not practical. What I noticed is the current generation of Indians are fully loaded with debt. If they land a 3 lakh/pm job they immediately load themselves with enough debt. Even if parents have fully paid off villa in Mumbai, kid will buy another 3cr apartment and a 1cr new car. Indian parents also have a weird mindset, they think shackling kids with debt forces them to save and somehow loyal to spouse/family.

Rant aside, if I have 3 lakh/pm obligations 2 lakh/pm salary is a no go. Moving from Mumbai to Delhi/Dubai/Shanghai/Honai, all are the same. You are still an outsider in Delhi.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:29 pm

Boeing CFO says the outstanding orders of Jet Airways (MAX+787) have been removed from backlog.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:38 pm

unrave wrote:
Boeing CFO says the outstanding orders of Jet Airways (MAX+787) have been removed from backlog.


Wow, that was hasty! Usually, orders remain until the dust settles....so the potential buyer has no slots of MAX production either...
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:04 pm

sibibom wrote:
unrave wrote:
Boeing CFO says the outstanding orders of Jet Airways (MAX+787) have been removed from backlog.


Wow, that was hasty! Usually, orders remain until the dust settles....so the potential buyer has no slots of MAX production either...


The financing has probably been withdrawn, and Boeing notified of this by the financiers. No finance, no sale.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:03 pm

vhtje wrote:
sibibom wrote:
unrave wrote:
Boeing CFO says the outstanding orders of Jet Airways (MAX+787) have been removed from backlog.


Wow, that was hasty! Usually, orders remain until the dust settles....so the potential buyer has no slots of MAX production either...


The financing has probably been withdrawn, and Boeing notified of this by the financiers. No finance, no sale.

Boeing was probably notified months ago that there was no financing. The current situation just punctuates the state.

The loss of the MAX order slots/pending aircraft reduces the value of the purchase. (They will fly again).

This makes me wonder about the wet lease contract. In effect, the lease has been transferred to SpiceJet for the 22 wet leased aircraft. I speculate that is to utilize the airframes/pilots/crew while SpiceJet inducts other aircraft and ramps up their trained pilots/crew.

At some point, SpiceJet would want to reconfigure these 737s with a denser Y, SpiceJet colors, and probably fewer J seats. At that point, the plane would enter SpiceJet's fleet. Pilots would be retrained as SpiceJet pilots (pilots refusing would return to Jet, but have kept a few months salary at prior rate). But I speculate.

What timeframe? SpiceJet needs to apply game theory to keep the aircraft and slots. I speculate their pilot training and ability to induct aircraft is saturated for the next 2+ months. So July would be the earliest transition that I estimate. The goal would have aircraft in reconfiguration and pilots in training prior to the possible 3 month from now turnover of slots back to Jet (assuming a phase 2 Jet).

Do not mistake I post what I want. I anticipate what a competent management team would do and estimate off that. The goal of the competition is to retain valuable market share growth.

I look at the interest of each group:
1. SpiceJet to grow at BOM and DEL that have elevated yield due to slot constraints suppressing supply below demand.
2. Leasing companies to have a 2 or more year long contract to enable them to find high paying new customers. Heck, they want 12 year leases, but that isn't happening and I speculate SpiceJet is bidding companies against each other, hence the late addition of 6 more.
3. Many pilots are not ready for a pay cut. By flying for SpiceJet under a wet lease, they can hold out hope. In a few months the situation will be clear. They want time to search for a better offer.
4. FAs need pay. I personally think this is the group that will be least fairly treated after the transition of aircraft to SpiceJet. I expect many won't be offered jobs at SpiceJet or maybe previously asserted statements they will refuse to apply due to uniforms will hold true.
5. Technicians that service the aircraft are facing a 50% cut in pay and a more hectic schedule St SpiceJet. They will avoid the obvious as long as possible.

I expect SpiceJet to do ground handling. It is a wet lease and their costs are lower. Perhaps some use of Jet staff while SpiceJet acquires the equipment needed to handle another 50 aircraft. That said, since much of that equipment had loans or was leased, it could already be getting SpiceJet stickers on tractors, belt loaders, baggage carts, fuel trucks (do Indian airlines own these, or the fueling company or airport?).

Note:. I expect Indigo to do the same, there is just a timelag on pilot training that constrains their growth due to their obvious pilot shortage. My opinion is every plane needs:
6.75 captains
6.75 copilot's
0.25 training pilots (captains trained to handle new copilots to mentor them or copilot for new captains). So 13.75 total pilots per aircraft. I believe Indigo has 13.3 when they ran short of pilots. Hence why on the bad day 130 flights didn't happen as they couldn't pull in about 60 spare pilots (my numbers would have about 81 more on roster) due to fatigue rules.

Note: for conversation I round to 14 pilots per aircraft required.

So the one group at Jet certain to find a job is pilots. They will individually decide on pay cut versus relocation. I find it interesting people here debated that decision. It is very individual. I know people who move for money and people who cannot. It will be a mix. Those that cannot move nor take a pay cut are in trouble.

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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:50 pm

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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:03 pm

VTCIE wrote:
I say, this is absolutely preposterous. You have an established, settled home in Mumbai with a spouse and kids; you are in dire straits now that 9W is grounded; a job calls you to, say, HCMC to work for VietJetAir with a significantly higher salary.

Tell me, when shifting from Mumbai to Delhi is itself difficult, with readmitting the kids into a new school and all that, how about taking up a job in another country? Okay, even if there are no kids, taking up a job in a different country has its own complications.

Money is not the only consideration. Convenience must be factored in (and closeness to family for a non-flying—i.e., ground—job).

Moving to DXB is not very difficult. Lots of Indians with established "homes" in India move to UAE for work (and move back a few years later with some dough). Plus UAE companies will usually take care of your relocation costs to certain extent so if the pay is right, it shouldn't be too difficult. I would assume pilots would actually find it easier than most others.

Can't comment about Vietnam though as I have no idea about what working in Vietnam is like for expats
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:20 pm

VTCIE wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
If SpiceJet offers 2/3rds of their current salary and Dubai/China/Vietnam offers more than their current salary which one they are going to pick. Keep in mind, once you signup SpiceJet the one year CA/six month FO notice clock resets.

I say, this is absolutely preposterous. You have an established, settled home in Mumbai with a spouse and kids; you are in dire straits now that 9W is grounded; a job calls you to, say, HCMC to work for VietJetAir with a significantly higher salary.

Tell me, when shifting from Mumbai to Delhi is itself difficult, with readmitting the kids into a new school and all that, how about taking up a job in another country? Okay, even if there are no kids, taking up a job in a different country has its own complications.

Money is not the only consideration. Convenience must be factored in (and closeness to family for a non-flying—i.e., ground—job).


The Vietnamese and next door Thai massage solves all these problems.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:01 am

Indigo closing in on 50% market share....

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 924831.ece
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:47 am

IndiGo, Tatas protest govt's basis for allotting Jet Airways slots

"The country’s largest airline, IndiGo, and the Tata Group, which operates Air Asia India and Vistara, have opposed a government decision to allocate Jet Airways slots only to those deploying new aircraft. Such a decision, they say, will harm their commercial viability and negate a level-playing field.In a letter to the government, IndiGo Chief Operating Officer Wolfgang Prock-Scahuer said, “aircraft inductions are planned in advance by airlines and cannot be expedited at such short notice. This leaves virtually one airline with the ability to corner Jet Airways slots and ..."


https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 034_1.html
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:52 am

For those keeping count:
As of today, 55 of Jet's 119-fleet are de-registed/filed to be de-registered.
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 82391.html
 
blr380
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:02 am

A lot of naysayers asked this thread to be shutdown several times - now the title has that word ....looks like the thread really needs to shutdown soon as there will be little to discuss when officially Jet will be buried. JetFail has been discussed in length ever since the BRU hub closed down.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:14 am

How true is this news? Can this really happen?
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 74861.html
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:16 am

AI will not be taking the 77Ws. Apparently, they need a bit of maintenance:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/je ... ar-BBWgriF

This makes me wonder as to the 737 condition.


edealinfo wrote:
For those keeping count:
As of today, 55 of Jet's 119-fleet are de-registed/filed to be de-registered.
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 82391.html

Thank you. So not yet at half.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:31 am

delete
Last edited by edealinfo on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:34 am

lightsaber wrote:
AI will not be taking the 77Ws. Apparently, they need a bit of maintenance:

Lightsaber


Isn't that the excuse that the AI CEO is peddling to divert attention from HIS MAJAESTY now that he discovered that Jet doesn't actually own or have possession of the slots to operate BOM/DEL to LHR for which the aircraft was intended to serve AI?

Classic case of putting the cart before the horse. He thought he would be viewed as saviour doing public service by helping Jet when it was all about his ego and media presence.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:35 am

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
AI will not be taking the 77Ws. Apparently, they need a bit of maintenance:

Lightsaber


Isn't that the excuse that the AI CEO is peddling to divert attention from HIS MAJAESTY now that he discovered that Jet doesn't actually own or have possession of the slots to operate BOM/DEL to LHR for which the aircraft was intended to serve AI?


Yup. AI can’t even use the planes they have. They don’t need more wide bodies (especially 77W)
 
behramjee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:36 am

DTWLAX wrote:
How true is this news? Can this really happen?
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 74861.html


It’s all rubbish...please don’t take such news seriously one bit as the poor chap has no idea.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:05 am

edealinfo wrote:
IndiGo, Tatas protest govt's basis for allotting Jet Airways slots


It's become obvious the current govt. is showing such bias and favouritism to SpiceJet, even making "waivers" as when needed just to benefit them whereas other airlines have to function with the regulatory framework. Also some say 9W's bidding process is being impaired to prevent any likelihood of it flying again and making sure SG reaps all the benefits from its demise.
Also found it very unethical of Ajay Singh (being a rival co.) to come out in public and speak of the extent of 9W's total debt even while the airline's bidding process is still on and hasn't concluded yet. Ofcourse the bidders would know the reality of it, but Singh should display some qualities of professional ethics.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:26 am

Based on unofficial reports it appears SG's recruitment drive ran into some trouble. Details are not CA forum worthy.

Assuming SG cannot hire 9W pilots, would it still dry lease 9W 738s or it would just wet lease 22 planes, again assuming 9W pilots are ready to fly for SG on wet leases.
 
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Viman
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 am

Based on Official reports, SpiceJet has hired 1000 Jet Airways Employees and more will be hired in future, forum members are advised to ignore fake news and propaganda peddlers on this thread, not to forget the very same people have asked to close this thread in the past. News link on Spicejet hiring: https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/av ... 40037.html
 
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Viman
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:43 am

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
IndiGo, Tatas protest govt's basis for allotting Jet Airways slots


It's become obvious the current govt. is showing such bias and favouritism to SpiceJet, even making "waivers" as when needed just to benefit them whereas other airlines have to function with the regulatory framework. Also some say 9W's bidding process is being impaired to prevent any likelihood of it flying again and making sure SG reaps all the benefits from its demise.
Also found it very unethical of Ajay Singh (being a rival co.) to come out in public and speak of the extent of 9W's total debt even while the airline's bidding process is still on and hasn't concluded yet. Ofcourse the bidders would know the reality of it, but Singh should display some qualities of professional ethics.


SpiceJet CEO was asked this question in the interview by the journalist and it was good that he answered the question honestly unlike the slimeball Naresh Goyal who destroyed Jet Airways before stepping down, the man killed the airlines instead of giving up control.

25,000 crores INR Debt, Jet is not coming back from this unless some lunatic wants to burn his company down in the future.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:19 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Based on unofficial reports it appears SG's recruitment drive ran into some trouble. Details are not CA forum worthy.

Any credible source to back this claim up?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:33 am

Jet protest handing over international slots:

https://m.timesofindia.com/business/ind ... 041542.cms

What about the ones that expire?

Who does EK send the gift basket to? Unless flights increase, the higher international fares will persist (up thread international up 28%, domestic 30%+).

SpiceJet saw an opportunity to expand quickly. Should they cancel the wet leases?

Lightsaber
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bennett123
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:05 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_J ... stinations

That is an awful lot of destinations to have restricted connections for two weeks.

How many are on a use them or lose them basis at the other end.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:07 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Based on unofficial reports it appears SG's recruitment drive ran into some trouble. Details are not CA forum worthy.

Assuming SG cannot hire 9W pilots, would it still dry lease 9W 738s or it would just wet lease 22 planes, again assuming 9W pilots are ready to fly for SG on wet leases.

SG has a surplus of pilots ready due to MAX grounding. They have hired 100 Jet pilots per prior links. They are fine on pilots.

What trouble? There were in prior threads links to reports of the masses of Jet pilots interviewing. Now, 50 aircraft need just under 700 pilots.

Other skills are in surplus, so SG will just hire others, although I'd speculate they want experienced staff.

Jet should have enough pilots for the first 20 dry leases already. Considering how quickly Indigo is hiring (my prior link shows 84 added flights in April so far), there seems to be zero issue hiring pilots in India right now.

Per last count, Jet has 1300 unpaid pilots. If Jet restarts, maybe 700 will have jobs?


I'd like to know your source as all other evidence is to the contrary. If the 777s truly have issues, it will be very costly to restart Jet.

What is the status of Jet pilot training? I cannot imagine Jet was paying for simulator time once they started to ground the fleet. If pilots lose their currency, they aren't as valuable. I cannot imagine they would be so silly to intentionally let that happen. Since about 25 per week will have that happen, there is a natural pool to draw from.

If there are any issues, SpiceJet would walk away from the wet leases first.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Based on unofficial reports it appears SG's recruitment drive ran into some trouble. Details are not CA forum worthy.

Assuming SG cannot hire 9W pilots, would it still dry lease 9W 738s or it would just wet lease 22 planes, again assuming 9W pilots are ready to fly for SG on wet leases.

SG has a surplus of pilots ready due to MAX grounding. They have hired 100 Jet pilots per prior links. They are fine on pilots.

What trouble? There were in prior threads links to reports of the masses of Jet pilots interviewing. Now, 50 aircraft need just under 700 pilots.



I believe the trouble being referred to is also mentioned in the tweets of this very known Indian aviation journo - https://mobile.twitter.com/shukla_tarun?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
It's in regards to how the Jet pilots were spoken to during hiring. I still however believe SG would have absorbed a sizeable number of crew who were desperate for a new job.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:25 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'd like to know your source as all other evidence is to the contrary.
Lightsaber


There are multiple tweets by Tarun Shukla about SG's recruitment drive gone haywire. Please delete if these are not appropriate.

https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 9328312322
https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 8608970752

- Hear like ground handlers, @flySpiceJet offered half salary to @JetAirways pilots too
- Those with 1000-2000 hours flying experience Rs 2.06 lakh vs Jet's Rs 3.7 lakh
- Also wanted them to travel to Delhi on their own to do psychometric test.
- We are doing charity by hiring you guys! Because The Chairman Ajay Singh promised the government
- He even says that they actually don't need pilots, it's social service.
- He also says that 50 Lacs bond for first officers is mandatory because we first officers are the most fraud people in the aviation community
- I am losing 50 lakh on every first officer I am hiring. If I get brand new CPL holder I'll take 25 lakh from him & get a 25 lakh bond signed from him. And can make him work for 10,000..Yet I want to hire you
- Answering question on base.He said “Beggars are not choosers”
- People walked off on his face when he said that give your resignation now and take the joining letter then only he ll take the interviews! Have asked SpiceJet for commentw. Will add when it comes.

SpiceJet says: - "These are completely false distorted allegations. - He is well-regarded professional who would never indulge into maligning colleagues - Your news org is advised not to entertain false imputations. Running story based on allegations is nothing but defamation"
 
hohd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:01 pm

What is EY still holding on for. They are facing a total loss on the Jet investment. Even if Jet comes back, will they get 49% of the new company (which is max that a foreign airline can acquire). This unusually long time for the bids and reviewing the bids is costing EY and the banks, it will be in their best interest if the new company starts ops as soon as possible. Why is SBI not proactive in this case, are they prepared write off all the loans ?
 
zuckie13
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:07 pm

edealinfo wrote:
IndiGo, Tatas protest govt's basis for allotting Jet Airways slots

"The country’s largest airline, IndiGo, and the Tata Group, which operates Air Asia India and Vistara, have opposed a government decision to allocate Jet Airways slots only to those deploying new aircraft. Such a decision, they say, will harm their commercial viability and negate a level-playing field.In a letter to the government, IndiGo Chief Operating Officer Wolfgang Prock-Scahuer said, “aircraft inductions are planned in advance by airlines and cannot be expedited at such short notice. This leaves virtually one airline with the ability to corner Jet Airways slots and ..."


https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 034_1.html


So basically, IndoGo and Tata are annoyed that they can't drop service from other routes to redeploy in an attempt to take over Jet's slots at BOM and DEL. Maybe this is actually a good thing though as it is preventing loss of service on other routes that these airlines are apparently ready to drop and trying to minimize the impact of the loss of Jet by pushing for new service instead of moved service.
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:09 pm

avier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Based on unofficial reports it appears SG's recruitment drive ran into some trouble. Details are not CA forum worthy.

Assuming SG cannot hire 9W pilots, would it still dry lease 9W 738s or it would just wet lease 22 planes, again assuming 9W pilots are ready to fly for SG on wet leases.

SG has a surplus of pilots ready due to MAX grounding. They have hired 100 Jet pilots per prior links. They are fine on pilots.

What trouble? There were in prior threads links to reports of the masses of Jet pilots interviewing. Now, 50 aircraft need just under 700 pilots.



I believe the trouble being referred to is also mentioned in the tweets of this very known Indian aviation journo - https://mobile.twitter.com/shukla_tarun?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
It's in regards to how the Jet pilots were spoken to during hiring. I still however believe SG would have absorbed a sizeable number of crew who were desperate for a new job.


This isnt a controversy. This is basic market dynamics.

Someone is offering less than a company that went bankrupt is par for the course.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
zuckie13
Posts: 135
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'd like to know your source as all other evidence is to the contrary.
Lightsaber


There are multiple tweets by Tarun Shukla about SG's recruitment drive gone haywire. Please delete if these are not appropriate.

https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 9328312322
https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 8608970752

- Hear like ground handlers, @flySpiceJet offered half salary to @JetAirways pilots too
- Those with 1000-2000 hours flying experience Rs 2.06 lakh vs Jet's Rs 3.7 lakh
- Also wanted them to travel to Delhi on their own to do psychometric test.
- We are doing charity by hiring you guys! Because The Chairman Ajay Singh promised the government
- He even says that they actually don't need pilots, it's social service.
- He also says that 50 Lacs bond for first officers is mandatory because we first officers are the most fraud people in the aviation community
- I am losing 50 lakh on every first officer I am hiring. If I get brand new CPL holder I'll take 25 lakh from him & get a 25 lakh bond signed from him. And can make him work for 10,000..Yet I want to hire you
- Answering question on base.He said “Beggars are not choosers”
- People walked off on his face when he said that give your resignation now and take the joining letter then only he ll take the interviews! Have asked SpiceJet for commentw. Will add when it comes.

SpiceJet says: - "These are completely false distorted allegations. - He is well-regarded professional who would never indulge into maligning colleagues - Your news org is advised not to entertain false imputations. Running story based on allegations is nothing but defamation"


If the 2.06 lakh is the same salary paid to current SpiceJet pilots with that experience, then that's simply what they pay. Without bothering with determining that context, that makes this more of a hit piece rather than useful information (especially from someone who is supposedly a journalist).
 
avier
Posts: 847
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:19 pm

Antarius wrote:
avier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
SG has a surplus of pilots ready due to MAX grounding. They have hired 100 Jet pilots per prior links. They are fine on pilots.

What trouble? There were in prior threads links to reports of the masses of Jet pilots interviewing. Now, 50 aircraft need just under 700 pilots.



I believe the trouble being referred to is also mentioned in the tweets of this very known Indian aviation journo - https://mobile.twitter.com/shukla_tarun?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
It's in regards to how the Jet pilots were spoken to during hiring. I still however believe SG would have absorbed a sizeable number of crew who were desperate for a new job.


This isnt a controversy. This is basic market dynamics.

Someone is offering less than a company that went bankrupt is par for the course.


Basic market dynamics is not telling your supposed new hires that they aren't wanted or social service is being done by hiring them or telling them beggars aren't choosers.
You seemed to have missed the point. I wasn't referring to the pay aspect. I fully support the fact that any new hire should be paid in line with salaries relative to other existing employees of the company. It's the attitude and manner of the hiring that was off. However, this whole episode is yet to be fully verified, so I'll stop at it.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7069
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:27 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
...
If the 2.06 lakh is the same salary paid to current SpiceJet pilots with that experience, then that's simply what they pay. Without bothering with determining that context, that makes this more of a hit piece rather than useful information (especially from someone who is supposedly a journalist).


If the audience(pilots) were pleased with his choice of words, they wouldn't have leaked to press. One airline doesn't decide the market rate and it is up to the pilots.

I doubt anyone will submit resignation before the interview.
 
avier
Posts: 847
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Jet's Pilot Union NAG has now even issued a statement regarding the same :

Image

Ouch..

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