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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:25 am

DLPMMM wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
What are your qualifications? .


Glad you asked. I am from the second batch Masters in Computer Science in entire India. It was UGC funded and on DoD supplied Medha 930 mainframes. BTW, Ameerpet was not born when I completed my Masters. So I won't get offended if some low-cost shill takes a jab at Ameerpet.

Also, Bangalore was a beautiful pleasant and green city, not present day crap.

Also, Aviation finance is a totally different animal, none of your listed experience matters.

There are only a handful of members on a.net who are familiar with aviation finances, whom opinion I respect.


Aviation finance is not a different animal, but I would not expect a computer jock with no business background to understand that. We did case studies in our finance classes in University in the 80’s on aviation financing and specifically airline aircraft leasing. I was also a CEO before I sold my company, so I have lots of experience in legal and corporate structures.

But now we know your qualifications and we know that we can disregard your opinion when it comes to the financial or corporate restructuring of Jet since you have absolutely no background or experience in business.

Next time I want to know something about SAP interfaces or data bases, then maybe I’ll ask you.


I never claimed I know any corporate finance, let alone aviation finance, I just stated my views based on the information I had. BTW, I lost you when you said: "Debt is debt".

Now that most planes are repoed, what is the latest debt number or everyone continue to repeat Ajay Singh's 25,000Cr number?
All posts are just opinions.
 
sibibom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:30 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Glad you asked. I am from the second batch Masters in Computer Science in entire India. It was UGC funded and on DoD supplied Medha 930 mainframes. BTW, Ameerpet was not born when I completed my Masters. So I won't get offended if some low-cost shill takes a jab at Ameerpet.

Also, Bangalore was a beautiful pleasant and green city, not present day crap.

Also, Aviation finance is a totally different animal, none of your listed experience matters.

There are only a handful of members on a.net who are familiar with aviation finances, whom opinion I respect.


Aviation finance is not a different animal, but I would not expect a computer jock with no business background to understand that. We did case studies in our finance classes in University in the 80’s on aviation financing and specifically airline aircraft leasing. I was also a CEO before I sold my company, so I have lots of experience in legal and corporate structures.

But now we know your qualifications and we know that we can disregard your opinion when it comes to the financial or corporate restructuring of Jet since you have absolutely no background or experience in business.

Next time I want to know something about SAP interfaces or data bases, then maybe I’ll ask you.


I never claimed I know any corporate finance, let alone aviation finance, I just stated my views based on the information I had. BTW, I lost you when you said: "Debt is debt".

Now that most planes are repoed, what is the latest debt number or everyone continue to repeat Ajay Singh's 25,000Cr number?


Even if the lessor repoed the aircraft (which they own), Jet still hasn't paid its dues, and its debt and liabilities don't magically change. The widebodies they owned will not result in drastic change as they are just a drop in a big ocean of liabilities, they will still be liable for missed payments, fines, some are missing engines, etc etc.

Plus I am not sure how much debt servicing was remaining in these 10 year old widebody birds (I assume 12 or 15 years payment plans)
Last edited by sibibom on Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:32 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Now that most planes are repoed, what is the latest debt number or everyone continue to repeat Ajay Singh's 25,000Cr number?

I would like to know the real debt. That said, repossessed aircraft still have back due debt.

If you gave a better number, please post.

We know bank debt is 8,500+ crore
Refunds due customers 3,500+ late accumulation.
Vendors are owed. How much is the mystery.
Leasing companies are owed.
Salaries since January are past due.

20,000 crore is the plausible minimum.
25,000 seems high.

Weekly numbers are needed to turn around a bankrupt company such as Jet.

Lightsaber
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I would like to know the real debt. That said, repossessed aircraft still have back due debt.
Lightsaber

It shouldn't be that difficult because SBI Caps is the one investigating Jet's books for almost a year. Their invitation for bids should have all these details.


sibibom wrote:
Even if the lessor repoed the aircraft (which they own), Jet still hasn't paid its dues, and its debt and liabilities don't magically change. The widebodies they owned will not result in drastic change as they are just a drop in a big ocean of liabilities, they will still be liable for missed payments, fines, some are missing engines, etc etc.

Plus I am not sure how much debt servicing was remaining in these 10 year old widebody birds (I assume 12 or 15 years payment plans)


Let's take a leased NB worth $50 Million on a 12-year lease at $200K per month, halfway thru its lease period(6 years).
When Jet took a brand new lease, $50 Million will show up as debt.

Assume Jet missed last 6 payments. $1.2 Million, but Jet's debt will be based on frame worth say $25 Million (I took approximately half)

Lessor may impose early termination fees and condition penalties say $5M.

With repo, $25 Million should go away from 9W books. Jet owes $6.2 Million in missed payments, early termination, and condition penalties.

The total debt number doesn't imply 9W has to repay all of it. Like $25 Million total debt vs $6.2 Million real obligations.

Disclaimer, I am not into finance.

------------------------------------------

On a separate note, 77Ws have only 3-4 more payments left on 12-year finance. If you notice the SPV names they have 2007.
All posts are just opinions.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:52 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Owner is MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED.

https://livefromalounge.boardingarea.co ... egistered/


That is the complex nature of present-day lease structures. it sounds like Goyal.

VJM made a mistake be keeping shell owned ATR72s in India with a hope to restart. Lost those. Goyal adjusted his methodology and quickly repoing and cashing 77Ws.

The cover story is EXIM bank is taking back planes it guaranteed.


There is nothing complex about a 777 being owned by a limited partnership and this is not another “Goyal” masterstroke. It allows maximum flexibility for the ownership group. Most all of the EK planes are owned individually by different LPs.

The exim guarantees cannot be exercised without repoing the plane. The exim does not directly repo planes.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:02 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
It allows maximum flexibility for the ownership group.

Yes, the opaque nature of these trusts/SPVs allow even Goyal to be the owner of this frame and cash these 77Ws in daylight.

DLPMMM wrote:
The exim guarantees cannot be exercised without repoing the plane. The exim does not directly repo planes.

I told the same two weeks back, and I am into finance.

I sincerely doubt 11 years 8 months later EXIM still has guarantee or lien on these frames. It is being loosely used by Indian media.
All posts are just opinions.
 
sibibom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:07 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Let's take a leased NB worth $50 Million on a 12-year lease at $200K per month, halfway thru its lease period(6 years).
When Jet took a brand new lease, $50 Million will show up as debt.

Assume Jet missed last 6 payments. $1.2 Million, but Jet's debt will be based on frame worth say $25 Million (I took approximately half)

Lessor may impose early termination fees and condition penalties say $5M.

With repo, $25 Million should go away from 9W books. Jet owes $6.2 Million in missed payments, early termination, and condition penalties.

The total debt number doesn't imply 9W has to repay all of it. Like $25 Million total debt vs $6.2 Million real obligations.

Disclaimer, I am not into finance.

------------------------------------------

On a separate note, 77Ws have only 3-4 more payments left on 12-year finance. If you notice the SPV names they have 2007.


FYI leased planes don't add to Debt! Companies lease to avoid debt and/or improve the bottom line by sale and leaseback (Indigo's secret to financial success). So none of the leased planes (90% of the fleet) add any debt, and they owe leases of almost a year plus fines. So those 8500 crs are mostly for widebodies and working capital loans taken over the years. The total debt and liabilities are over 20,000crs for sure, all for a company that doesn't own anything of value and today with no brand value either.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:25 pm

sibibom wrote:
FYI leased planes don't add to Debt!


They do. It is not talked about because not many get into a pickle like 9W or AI.
All posts are just opinions.
 
sibibom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
FYI leased planes don't add to Debt!


They do. It is not talked about because not many get into the pickle like 9W or AI.


What you talking about? When you lease, you don't own the plane, you don't pay for it (unless it was a sale and leaseback, in which case money moves around and hence again no debt). Yes there maybe payments to be made for different types of agreements, but airlines don't owe money as debts to own aircraft they don't own(your logic from what I can infer)

Basically the leasing companies own the aircraft, they finance it with debts or cash reserve, airlines pay only the lease and not liable for monies the lessor paid to buy/own the aircraft!
Last edited by sibibom on Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:33 pm

sibibom wrote:
Well slots can be gained by adding new aircraft on first come first serve basis, discouraging removing service from existing routes. Adding a new aircraft doesn't happen overnight unless you take one of Jet's.

There are some here who talk about free market and how great it is (it indeed is), in a free market, airlines would pull services and go for most lucrative routes and slots, sadly the government rule is against free market and only beneficiary is SpiceJet cos they use B737 (AI express too, but they being Air India will react like sloths)

Slots are being disproportionally being taken up by Spicejet who are punching far above their weight, only cos they know the government has their back. Indigo cos their scale are also cornering a lot of slots, however it is still not proportional to their market share. GoAir, Vistara, Air Asia India and Air India are losing out big time.

Everyone other than SpiceJet is being vocal about lack of level playing field, the statements are all over in multiple articles. The fact that Vistara is considering taking this gamble more proof (lets see what actually transpires)


This is a very thoughtful, and in my opinion, an accurate representation of the situation at hand.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:37 pm

sibibom wrote:
I just spoke to ex Jet crew today, she was like many Jet employees still think it will be revived. Few who understand the situation are moving on, rest are waiting for a savior....who may never arrive....


If one is a Jet employee, human nature will call for hope, regardless of the facts. I am sure there is a psychological term for it though I no not what it is termed.

Not being a Jet employee helps for clarity and rational thought.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:44 pm

avier wrote:
Jet's Pilot Union NAG write to the PM of India with certain requests and investigations to be carried out.

Image
Image


So, you now expect the Government of India, to drop everything and run after Swamy's tweets? Did Swamy provide any evidence to back his allegations? Does the U.S. shut down every time Trump tweets?

Oh, yeah, and this same Mr. Subramanium Swamy (SS) wants the Government to merge Jet Airways with Air India. And you expect the Government to allow follow his advice?

SS is in this battle ONLY to further his own interests (he will get tremendous publicity out of this).

Subramanium Swamy (SS) may be the new Chandraswami. Remember him? That was the Godman who use to advise former Prime Minister Chandrashekar.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:50 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
Jet's Pilot Union NAG write to the PM of India with certain requests and investigations to be carried out.

Image
Image


So, you now expect the Government of India, to drop everything and run after Swamy's tweets? Did Swamy provide any evidence to back his allegations? Does the U.S. shut down every time Trump tweets?

Oh, yeah, and this same Mr. Subramanium Swamy wants the Government to merge Jet Airways with Air India. And you expect the Government to allow follow his advice?


You're behaving now as if I wrote that letter to the PMO, that your cross questioning me over it.
I'm not defending those guys here, but just put it up here more like a news update on what 9W employees are doing about their situation.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:51 pm

avier wrote:

You're behaving now as if I wrote that letter to the PMO, that your cross questioning me over it.
I'm not defending those guys here, but just put it up here more like a news update on what 9W employees are doing about their situation.

I know. Just teasing to add some flavor in these forums.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:55 pm

sibibom wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
FYI leased planes don't add to Debt!


They do. It is not talked about because not many get into the pickle like 9W or AI.


What you talking about? When you lease, you don't own the plane, you don't pay for it (unless it was a sale and leaseback, in which case money moves around and hence again no debt). Yes there maybe payments to be made for different types of agreements, but airlines don't owe money as debts to own aircraft they don't own(your logic from what I can infer)

Basically the leasing companies own the aircraft, they finance it with debts or cash reserve, airlines pay only the lease and not liable for monies the lessor paid to buy/own the aircraft!


From the borrowing point of view, operational leases and financing are exactly the same. A borrower needs to be creditworthy for the entire asset value even for operational lease. Your cash outflow is almost the same. At the end of 12-year fiance you own the plane, 12-year lease, the lessor owns the plane.

A 788 is $110 Million. ~$700K per month lease payment. In 144 months you pay $100 Million as lease payments.

It only helps to tweak annual books ie., capital vs operational expenses.

Lohani is on tape saying lease is waste of money (particularly for airlines with in-house MRO capabilities), but it is the trending thing, so everyone is doing it.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:01 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

A 788 is $110 Million. ~$700K per month lease payment. In 144 months you pay $100 Million as lease payments.

It only helps to tweak annual books ie., capital vs operational expenses.
.


And, more importantly, at the end of the 12 year period, the airline OWNS the plane whereas in a lease, that plane goes back to the lessor. So,with payments almost identical, in financing vs leasing, those financing have something in the bag at the end of the period.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:05 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:

You're behaving now as if I wrote that letter to the PMO, that your cross questioning me over it.
I'm not defending those guys here, but just put it up here more like a news update on what 9W employees are doing about their situation.

I know. Just teasing to add some flavor in these forums.


If you still though have any reservations or objections to that letter, you may please contact NAG directly through any of their social media channels and bug them to death with your never ending questions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:08 pm

Indigo Adopts New Tactic to Beat Government's Restrictions on Going After Jet's Slots.

The government said that airlines can't cut domestic flights and reallocate those flights towards grabbing Jet's BOM and DEL slots. [Supposedly, the Government wants to maintain domestic connectivity......or if you are more cynical, to enable SpiceJet to capture more of Jet's slots]. So, Indigo, has come up with a creative solution. It just cuts its international flights to move it to get Jet's BOM and DEL slots.

WOW, just WOW. This is a "free for all" mad rush to get slots on a first come first served basis. By the time Vistara and AirAsia bring in their planes in June, the spolis will be long gone captured by SpiceJet and Indigo.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 076776.cms
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:13 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Indigo Adopts New Tactic to Beat Government's Restrictions on Going After Jet's Slots.

The government said that airlines can't cut domestic flights and reallocate those flights towards grabbing Jet's BOM and DEL slots. [Supposedly, the Government wants to maintain domestic connectivity......or if you are more cynical, to enable SpiceJet to capture more of Jet's slots]. So, Indigo, has come up with a creative solution. It just cuts its international flights to move it to get Jet's BOM and DEL slots.

WOW, just WOW. This is a "free for all" mad rush to get slots on a first come first served basis. By the time Vistara and AirAsia bring in their planes in June, the spolis will be long gone captured by SpiceJet and Indigo.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 076776.cms


I actually feel sorry for 6E. With months of effort, they are the ones took 9W to the cliff, when they got back home someone changed the beneficiary name on the insurance policy.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:15 pm

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
If you still though have any reservations or objections to that letter, you may please contact NAG directly through any of their social media channels and bug them to death with your never ending questions.


I would not because like you, they are reactive not proactive. If, as a trade association they did their job correctly, they would have raised the issues much earlier NOT after the house has burned. Maybe they should have asked questions many months ago. But that would have bugged others so they sat on it. No, look what its got them into.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:16 pm

sibibom wrote:
It will be terrible move to induct B737 at this point for Vistara. But Government's almost biased support for SpiceJet is forcing other airlines at this point, is forcing other Airlines to make stupid moves which in hindsight we will say is the cause of "failure"

Also the article is not without substance, "Vistara could also get more slots at the constrained airports and add flights if it takes Jet's repossessed planes."


At the same time though, SpiceJet and Air India Express are the only other 737 operators in India, but Air India Express has all of its frames modified with a short field package.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:17 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

I actually feel sorry for 6E. With months of effort, they are the ones took 9W to the cliff, when they got back home someone changed the beneficiary name on the insurance policy.


Care to elaborate? I understand that the beneficiary of the insurance policy is SpiceJet but what did Indigo do to take 9W off the cliff?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
."


At the same time though, SpiceJet and Air India Express are the only other 737 operators in India, but Air India Express has all of its frames modified with a short field package.


What is a short field package?
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
sibibom wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

They do. It is not talked about because not many get into the pickle like 9W or AI.


What you talking about? When you lease, you don't own the plane, you don't pay for it (unless it was a sale and leaseback, in which case money moves around and hence again no debt). Yes there maybe payments to be made for different types of agreements, but airlines don't owe money as debts to own aircraft they don't own(your logic from what I can infer)

Basically the leasing companies own the aircraft, they finance it with debts or cash reserve, airlines pay only the lease and not liable for monies the lessor paid to buy/own the aircraft!


From the borrowing point of view, operational leases and financing are exactly the same. A borrower needs to be creditworthy for the entire asset value even for operational lease. Your cash outflow is almost the same. At the end of 12-year fiance you own the plane, 12-year lease, the lessor owns the plane.

A 788 is $110 Million. ~$700K per month lease payment. In 144 months you pay $100 Million as lease payments.

It only helps to tweak annual books ie., capital vs operational expenses.

Lohani is on tape saying lease is waste of money (particularly for airlines with in-house MRO capabilities), but it is the trending thing, so everyone is doing it.


You are way over your head and spouting nonsense.

Please look up operating lease and capital lease. Look up time value of money, present value of future cash flows, and then report back on what you learned.
 
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B747fanReal
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:22 pm

edealinfo wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
."


At the same time though, SpiceJet and Air India Express are the only other 737 operators in India, but Air India Express has all of its frames modified with a short field package.


What is a short field package?

“The 737 design enhancements allow operators to fly increased payload in and out of airports with runways less than 5,000 feet long. The design enhancements include a two-position tail skid that enables reduced approach speeds, sealed leading-edge slats that provide increased lift during takeoff, and increased flight spoiler deflection on the ground that improves takeoff and landing performance.”

Directly from https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2006-07-31 ... age-to-GOL


Sent from my iPhone XS MAX using Tapatalk
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:23 pm

If AI is not state-owned, Vistara can lease AI A320NEOs for two months and AI can reactivate double-bogies. AI still keeping those in storage if some AD/ED shows up on LEAP-NEOs. But the government will make sure no such thing happens.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Now that most planes are repoed, what is the latest debt number or everyone continue to repeat Ajay Singh's 25,000Cr number?

I guess in Masters of Kampooter Science course they teach that repossession extinguishes liability.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:30 pm

avier wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Vistara may induct some of Jet's Boeing 737s in its fleet

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst


That's incorrect news and an assumption. The article itself states all Vistara did was interview Jet's 737 pilots, but no where did Vistara explicitly state they want the 737 aircrafts too. Very poor reporting indeed.


Is it poor reporting or your incorrect inference and total inability to read between the lines?

"When asked if it is taking some of ex-Jet Boeing 737 NGs in its FLEET, a Vistara spokesman said " "The recent reduction in capacity has inconvenienced travelers especially in the full-service segment. We will continue to grow our network to meet the market demand"

Note that the spokesman didn't deny that there was a plan to take the 737 NG even when presented the opportunity to do so. Second, how do you expect Vistara to grow its (BOM & DEL) network before late June 2019 (when the first of its planes arrive) and by which time Jet's BOM and DEL slots will be long gone? The only way they can get any BOM slots before late June is to get planes ASAP.

Have you even seen how Spicejet is allocating its new flights. It is round trips to BOM. So, each round trip has BOMBAY in one segment so as to maximize the take on these slots. With SpiceJet getting 50 planes in less than a month (with all of them scheduled to be used in a lazor focus on BOM and DEL slots.......unless political pressure necessitates them to back off) they have the ace up their sleeves. Heck, SpiceJet isn't even bothering with repainting the Jet aircraft or re-configuring Jet's seating layout. That's how much they value TIMING! If you are late in the game, the game is over.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:42 pm

edealinfo wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
."


At the same time though, SpiceJet and Air India Express are the only other 737 operators in India, but Air India Express has all of its frames modified with a short field package.


What is a short field package?

Several aircraft have them as options. The Airbus SHARP kit is the latest:

A shortfield kit usually is a flap modification. Sometimes very complex and heavy, sometimes just more powerful actuator motors with longer linkages (beefed up) to allow a greater flap angle. Sometimes the leading edge flap is changed as well as the aft flap.

Rarely, landing gear is modified for a sharper takeoff angle. Almost always, this is done with a thrust increase.

The latest is on the A320. This allows the A320 to go into airports previously only served by the A318 and A319:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... od-a320neo

The end result reduces the required runway for a given mission. If the package is low enough cost, eventually it becomes standard (or given away during purchase negotiation).

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:42 pm

VT-JWV is currently without engines. I would not be surprised if that frame ends up scrapped in India since it's in bad shape. https://livefromalounge.boardingarea.co ... egistered/ (See picture near end.)

lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

At the same time though, SpiceJet and Air India Express are the only other 737 operators in India, but Air India Express has all of its frames modified with a short field package.


What is a short field package?

Several aircraft have them as options. The Airbus SHARP kit is the latest:

A shortfield kit usually is a flap modification. Sometimes very complex and heavy, sometimes just more powerful actuator motors with longer linkages (beefed up) to allow a greater flap angle. Sometimes the leading edge flap is changed as well as the aft flap.

Rarely, landing gear is modified for a sharper takeoff angle. Almost always, this is done with a thrust increase.

The latest is on the A320. This allows the A320 to go into airports previously only served by the A318 and A319:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... od-a320neo

The end result reduces the required runway for a given mission. If the package is low enough cost, eventually it becomes standard (or given away during purchase negotiation).

Lightsaber


Airlines like Bangkok Airways, Druk Air (1 A20N on order) and Avianca could be interested in that SHARP kit.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:

What is a short field package?



Thank you Lightsaber, B747fanReal, and aemoreira1981 for your response.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:49 pm

FACTCHECK TIME!

dtw2hyd wrote:
From the borrowing point of view, operational leases and financing are exactly the same.

Maybe true in Masters of Computers Science. In actual real world finance, it is FALSE.

Your cash outflow is almost the same.

FALSE

At the end of 12-year finance you own the plane, 12-year lease, the lessor owns the plane.

Statement is valid only if the two lease payments are equal. Since that is not the case. this is FALSE

A 788 is $110 Million. ~$700K per month lease payment. In 144 months you pay $100 Million as lease payments.

FALSE. Looks like UGC did not include the concept of interest in Masters of Computers Science.

It only helps to tweak annual books ie., capital vs operational expenses.

Operating vs financial lease is a fairly complex decision that cannot be reduced to a one line banal statement.

Lohani is on tape saying lease is waste of money (particularly for airlines with in-house MRO capabilities), but it is the trending thing, so everyone is doing it.

The same Lohani ordered 27 A320neo and 16 ATR72 on operating leases during his previous tenure as AI chairman

If there is a hall of fame on Anet for busting fake news, I should be no.1
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:57 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Vistara may induct some of Jet's Boeing 737s in its fleet

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst


That's incorrect news and an assumption. The article itself states all Vistara did was interview Jet's 737 pilots, but no where did Vistara explicitly state they want the 737 aircrafts too. Very poor reporting indeed.


Is it poor reporting or your incorrect inference and total inability to read between the lines?

"When asked if it is taking some of ex-Jet Boeing 737 NGs in its FLEET, a Vistara spokesman said " "The recent reduction in capacity has inconvenienced travelers especially in the full-service segment. We will continue to grow our network to meet the market demand"

Note that the spokesman didn't deny that there was a plan to take the 737 NG even when presented the opportunity to do so. Second, how do you expect Vistara to grow its (BOM & DEL) network before late June 2019 (when the first of its planes arrive) and by which time Jet's BOM and DEL slots will be long gone? The only way they can get any BOM slots before late June is to get planes ASAP.

Have you even seen how Spicejet is allocating its new flights. It is round trips to BOM. So, each round trip has BOMBAY in one segment so as to maximize the take on these slots. With SpiceJet getting 50 planes in less than a month (with all of them scheduled to be used in a lazor focus on BOM and DEL slots.......unless political pressure necessitates them to back off) they have the ace up their sleeves


Uhh. Do even have a tad bit of understanding of the aviation sector?
Someone not denying something, doesn't mean they affirm to it. They gave a very diplomatic answer and didn't really answer it as a yes/no. Sheesh, what kind of a journo are you.

Now, airlines are not buying candies from the store. They are buying planes. Big expensive planes which require a whole host of logistics to be set in place to operate them. They can't do that over night when introducing a new aircraft type to the fleet all of a sudden, especially a small 20 odd fleet airline. Ofcourse you wish they do that, and you go by your own beliefs always because it excites you. But that's not how it works.
Also, everything you suggest is very "reactive" , wink wink. So now you prefer "reactive" eh? Few posts above you opined differently.
From my pov, I don't think they will stoop down to SpiceJet's level of grabbing and flying Jet's planes with Jet's product as a Spice plane. They are a very brand conscious airline, and they will probably wait and induct maybe used 320's from the market fitted with the proper Vistara product.
Or at the most, if Jet gets dragged to Bankruptcy court and they bid for 9W there, then they might get Jets planes and fly them grabbing their slots too. But certainly they won't the Spice way.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:00 pm

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
they will probably wait and induct maybe used 320's from the market fitted with the proper Vistara product.
Or at the most, if Jet gets dragged to Bankruptcy court and they bid for it there, then they might get Jets planes and fly them grabbing their slots too. But certainly they won't the Spice way.


And of what good is this if by then (official bankruptcy stage) there are no more BOM and DEL slots? or, do you believe Vistara has no strategy to get BOM and DEL slots and takes on planes, not in their original plan, just for the sake of taking planes? Do even have a tad bit of understanding of the aviation sector?
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:04 pm

edealinfo wrote:
And of what good is this if by then there are no more BOM and DEL slots? or, do you believe Vistara takes on planes, not in their original plan, just for the sake of taking planes? Do even have a tad bit of understanding of the aviation sector?

DEL will not run out of slots anytime soon. Hundreds of new slots will become available in 2021.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:06 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
DEL will not run out of slots anytime soon. Hundreds of new slots will become available in 2021.


Vistara was primarily interested in Jet previously, solely for its BOM slots. That's the commercial capital and where it was lacking a presence. BOM slots will be gone by June-end if SpiceJet is not restricted from using its 50 newly arriving planes towards it.

(DEL is a secondary consideration with the focus of Jet's DEL "prime" slots (note any ole slots).
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:09 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
DEL will not run out of slots anytime soon. Hundreds of new slots will become available in 2021.


Vistara was primarily interested in Jet previously, solely for its BOM slots. That's the commercial capital and where it was lacking a presence. BOM slots will be gone by June-end if SpiceJet is not restricted from using its 50 newly arriving planes towards it.

Vistara was not interested in Jet. TATAs were. We do not know what value they found in the airline and we can only speculate. You said DEL and BOM will run out of slots. Only half of that statement is true.
Several dozens of "price slots" will also become available at DEL in 2021.
Last edited by unrave on Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:10 pm

After Jet Airways, state-owned Pawan Hans delays employees’ salaries for April

https://www.indiatoday.in/business/stor ... 2019-04-28
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:10 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


And of what good is this if by then (official bankruptcy stage) there are no more BOM and DEL slots? or, do you believe Vistara has no strategy to get BOM and DEL slots and takes on planes, not in their original plan, just for the sake of taking planes?


What do you mean by "takes on planes, not in their original plan, just for the sake of taking planes"? According to you they can't get more used aircrafts from the market than what they have originally ordered? What the heck has IndiGo been doing all this time? I mean, what aviation do you follow? Your questions are absurd and feels like you in some alternate universe.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:16 pm

If you have any thoughts on whether Etihad has free cash to bid on Jet.......

Etihad eliminating seatback TVs on A320s/A321s

https://onemileatatime.com/etihad-removing-seatback-tv/
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:20 pm

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:


What do you mean by "takes on planes, not in their original plan, just for the sake of taking planes"?


This is from you "they [Vistara] will probably wait and induct maybe used 320's from the market fitted with the proper Vistara product."

It appears you are alternating between a different universe and don't know which one you are in.
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:28 pm

edealinfo wrote:
After Jet Airways, state-owned Pawan Hans delays employees’ salaries for April

https://www.indiatoday.in/business/stor ... 2019-04-28


IIRC, Air India has a slew of debt maturing later this year too.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:47 pm

On finance and operating leases, isn't an aircraft on a finance lease (or a Japanese operating lease with a call option, or JOLCO for short) considered an asset of the lessee, while an operating lease (not JOLCO) is an asset of the lessor? That said, an operating lease can have a built-in buyout where the lessee can buy the aircraft. Generally: finance lease or JOLCO = loan. For instance, if you look at UPS' financial statements, they delineate between aircraft owned or capital (finance) leased and operating leased planes (UPS has no aircraft on operating leases; fleet size varies with external charters).

Here's a longer explanation. https://efinancemanagement.com/sources- ... cial-lease
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:01 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

What do you mean by "takes on planes, not in their original plan, just for the sake of taking planes"?


This is from you "they [Vistara] will probably wait and induct maybe used 320's from the market fitted with the proper Vistara product."

It appears you are alternating between a different universe and don't know which one you are in.


Yes, and I still stand by what I say that they will if required get aircrafts (A320's) from the used market if needed. For you however that's alien concept and "not in their original plan" and wonder how can they for the sake of it.
So I'm not sure how I am I alternating between anything. Urgh.
 
bennett123
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:08 pm

If they take temporary slots and get the planes etc, there is nothing to stop the government subsequently taking the slots back and handing them to Jet Mk2 or A N Other.

Result Spicejet gets shafted.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:27 pm

bennett123 wrote:
If they take temporary slots and get the planes etc, there is nothing to stop the government subsequently taking the slots back and handing them to Jet Mk2 or A N Other.

Result Spicejet gets shafted.


Jet isn't coming back. {even if they did, do you think they will get back 124 planes in 3 months before they lose those slots again?].

Now assuming Jet isn't coming back, those that got Jet's slots get to keep it. The Government isn't just going to turn the world upside down for airlines that based of the Government's recommendation to increase capacity and then invested in leases, to suddenly pull the rug under them. In the rare event that the Government did, the courts would side with the airlines as they, in good faith, followed the Government, in times of the nation's need. I have long held that in the absence of existing rules, the early bird catches the worm. Some may say that this isn't fair, and this is 100% true, but that's just the way it is, regrettably.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:34 pm

"According to several Jet employees, lack of communication from the company is making it difficult for them to decide whether to stay on or look for a new job."

I have high respect for Jet's CEO but I think he needs to be blunt and let them know that A) a new Jet, even if that is feasible won't be able to employ all, and B) in the current scenario, all things considered, an employee would be better off finding another job then waiting for Jet's rescue.

https://www.livemint.com/money/personal ... 64673.html
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
"According to several Jet employees, lack of communication from the company is making it difficult for them to decide whether to stay on or look for a new job."

I have high respect for Jet's CEO but I think he needs to be blunt and let them know that A) a new Jet, even if that is feasible won't be able to employ all, and B) in the current scenario, all things considered, an employee would be better off finding another job then waiting for Jet's rescue.

https://www.livemint.com/money/personal ... 64673.html

That sums it up. At most I see the new Jet employing 6,000. It must be far more efficient than old Jet.

If it can happen. I am skeptical. The aircraft are being farmed out. Vendors we're stiffed.

After Kingfisher, it amazes me how this happened again.

I think the lack of communication is intentional.

Lightsaber
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:31 pm

In US bankruptcy law the historic preference is: secured loans paid off in full, payroll & pensions next, unsecured debt, and finally equity. Only when all of the other classes are settled does any remaining value go to shareholders.

It is treacherous ground to go mess with this order. The US Gov't stepped into the Chrysler bankruptcy where secured lenders got a haircut so the workers came out better. That is nice but it just increased the cost of all future loans to any company that appears distressed.

Indian law appears to make it all the tougher, the banks do not want to get investigated which appears to happen often there. At this point I cannot imagine any buyer to touch Jet, the debt even with big haircuts far exceeds the remaining value.
 
bennett123
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:48 pm

Just because it is ‘historic’, I fail to see why that be accepted as ‘set in stone’.

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