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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:

1. Continually changing the rules makes companies hesitant to invest.

2. Airlines we're incentivised to expand quickly. Partially in the hope of hiring Jet pilots and transferring Jet aircraft so the Indian leasing market wouldn't be mucked up. Are you saying airlines shouldn't have hired so quickly?

3. Indian banks just took a major hit. Arbitrarily penalizing them without law or precident is bad. See 1930s USA.

Lightsaber


1. 100 percent agree but there has to be fair rules in the first place. Right now whatever helps SpiceJet becomes the rule which isn’t right. SoiceJet’s stock hit the hugest market capitalization, ever, yesterday, with thanks to Government policy.

2. airlines did what they had to do (Vistara and AirAsia) so that Spicejet doesn’t hog the whole hog.

3. A relatively paltry 170 crore as penalty(1 month salary) for failing to pay a publicly promised 1500 crore is a fair judgement for SBI’s total failure to lead when it forcibly took charge. Besides it fair given how SBI let the Jet staff down so terribly. banks are supposed to do their due deligence BEFORE making a promise to release funds and before forcing out Managment on the express condition that they would release the 1500 crore loan.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:27 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
6. Why is India’s COMPETITION AUTHORITY sleeping at the wheels? Why can’t it mandate that a carrier can have no more than 40 percent domestic or international market share and no more than 30 percent of the overall slots at the 6 metros, plus slot constrained airports such as Pune and Goa. The 30 percent could be relaxed to 40 percent for 1 metro demarcated as a “hub” airport by each carrier.

Why is it 40%? Why not 30? or 50?

good point. my percentage was only meant to serve as an example. It could be any number that makes logical sense.
 
art
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:37 pm

Apologies for not reading all the posts but how much of Jet's routes can other Indian companies take over? There must be some routes that can be flown profitably.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:40 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
6. Why is India’s COMPETITION AUTHORITY sleeping at the wheels? Why can’t it mandate that a carrier can have no more than 40 percent domestic or international market share and no more than 30 percent of the overall slots at the 6 metros, plus slot constrained airports such as Pune and Goa. The 30 percent could be relaxed to 40 percent for 1 metro demarcated as a “hub” airport by each carrier.

Why is it 40%? Why not 30? or 50?

good point. my percentage was only meant to serve as an example. It could be any number that makes logical sense.

The govt will do everyone a whole world of good if its keeps its grubby hands off the industry.
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:42 pm

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

1. Continually changing the rules makes companies hesitant to invest.

2. Airlines we're incentivised to expand quickly. Partially in the hope of hiring Jet pilots and transferring Jet aircraft so the Indian leasing market wouldn't be mucked up. Are you saying airlines shouldn't have hired so quickly?

3. Indian banks just took a major hit. Arbitrarily penalizing them without law or precident is bad. See 1930s USA.

Lightsaber


1. 100 percent agree but there has to be fair rules in the first place. Right now whatever helps SpiceJet becomes the rule which isn’t right. SoiceJet’s stock hit the hugest market capitalization, ever, yesterday, with thanks to Government policy.

2. airlines did what they had to do (Vistara and AirAsia) so that Spicejet doesn’t hog the whole hog.

3. A relatively paltry 170 crore as penalty(1 month salary) for failing to pay a publicly promised 1500 crore is a fair judgement for SBI’s total failure to lead when it forcibly took charge. Besides it fair given how SBI let the Jet staff down so terribly. banks are supposed to do their due deligence BEFORE making a promise to release funds and before forcing out Managment on the express condition that they would release the 1500 crore loan.

On topic #1, there need to be fair rules ahead of time. 1 I agree with that. Have you read the books by Bernstein? He notes a known, but bad rule is better than no rule or variable rules. He is discussing relative to a nation's economic growth.
2. Ok, the competition adapted. The policy to stimulate fast growth worked.
3. What law forces the penalty? The politicians promised 1,500 crore. The bankers noted it wasn't allowed. The bankers did due diligence and stopped the money. I agree the promises shouldn't have been made. I keep repeating that India must significantly update bankruptcy/receivership laws. If when the first salary was missed Jet was put into receivership, the employees would have been far better off. But what law forces payment? If a rule was broken, penalize SBI. But the other banks never promised to pay. Most couldn't afford to.

Unfortunately, I believe that India is about to hit a banking crisis due to all the bad loans, but that quickly goes off topic. Jet's large default is just too much. 170 crore is nothing. However, bigger issues will dominate policy.

At least Jet employees are finding new jobs. Far from ideal

Lightsaber
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unnayan
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:45 pm

On a slightly different thought... Hasn't this been suddenly an opening for Boeing in India?

They are going to get two B737 customers without spending anything on Sales. This could open future sales if they like the aircraft
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:09 pm

unnayan wrote:
On a slightly different thought... Hasn't this been suddenly an opening for Boeing in India?

They are going to get two B737 customers without spending anything on Sales. This could open future sales if they like the aircraft

They'll operate these planes only for a short period
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:55 pm

Sabre is blaming Jet Shutdown and MAX grounding for slower revenue:

https://skift.com/2019/04/30/sabre-will ... nding/amp/

I think losing customers will hurt Sabre. There costs are too high. Last thread I posted how Jet paid far too much for sales. Now Sabre is just one part of that

That said, Sabres outages and failing business model are more of a concern. But Jet shutting down hurt them. I wonder how much Jet owes Sabre. :devil:

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CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:16 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Why is it 40%? Why not 30? or 50?

good point. my percentage was only meant to serve as an example. It could be any number that makes logical sense.

The govt will do everyone a whole world of good if its keeps its grubby hands off the industry.


How very libertarian of you. Even in efficient capitalist markets like the US and EU there is regulation on monopolies, competition etc. The problem in india are not necessarily the laws/rules, it is that government keeps changing the rules to favor the current political favorite AND many of India's most prominent business people stay quite because they know their time will come. Business newspapers and business leaders should be all over the farce of how slots are being handed out. But even the Tatas have too much interest in shutting up (put out a mild complaint or get the unions to complain on their behalf).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
3. A relatively paltry 170 crore as penalty(1 month salary) for failing to pay a publicly promised 1500 crore is a fair judgement for SBI’s total failure to lead when it forcibly took charge. Besides it fair given how SBI let the Jet staff down so terribly. banks are supposed to do their due deligence BEFORE making a promise to release funds and before forcing out Managment on the express condition that they would release the 1500 crore loan.


Success is defined by the amount of paperwork, not by saving the company.
Jet had a single lender, SBI, a unique situation for any company.

I don't believe for a second Goyal jumped the ship without shoring up enough dough. I am sure he had help in SBI.

All in all, it is a great achievement for India.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Also look up yes Bank. They are in trouble because of the jet failure.


That's because "YES" Bank doesn't know how to say "NO".

Anyway, here is the link to the article....
https://www.indiatoday.in/business/stor ... 2019-04-30
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 12:11 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
3. A relatively paltry 170 crore as penalty(1 month salary) for failing to pay a publicly promised 1500 crore is a fair judgement for SBI’s total failure to lead when it forcibly took charge. Besides it fair given how SBI let the Jet staff down so terribly. banks are supposed to do their due deligence BEFORE making a promise to release funds and before forcing out Managment on the express condition that they would release the 1500 crore loan.


Success is defined by the amount of paperwork, not by saving the company.
Jet had a single lender, SBI, a unique situation for any company.

I don't believe for a second Goyal jumped the ship without shoring up enough dough. I am sure he had help in SBI.

All in all, it is a great achievement for India.


Would you just quit with the uninformed diatribe? Jet did not have a single lender!!
SBI merely took the lead role, as it was the largest bank. There were several other banks with exposure as has be reported multiple times and referenced in this very thread.

Please go back to your Kompooter and reread this thread.

But you are correct in one thing...Mr. Goyal did stash a bunch of money...like a typical two bit thief and con man.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 1:34 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

Jet had a single lender, SBI, a unique situation for any company.


FACTCHECK: Jet has a consortium of lenders, including several private ones. SBI is the largest lender, followed by PNB
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 2:34 am

avier wrote:

Now, airlines are not buying candies from the store. They are buying planes. Big expensive planes which require a whole host of logistics to be set in place to operate them. They can't do that over night when introducing a new aircraft type to the fleet all of a sudden, especially a small 20 odd fleet airline. Ofcourse you wish they do that, and you go by your own beliefs always because it excites you. But that's not how it works.

Airlines making rash decisions.... .


Actually, I was wrong only to the extent of the degree to which Vistara moved. Vistara is taking on an even more "rash" (your word) decision than I expected -- 10 planes not 6 and increasing its fleet size by a whopping 50% in less than 2 months) Now what was it that you were saying about your aviation knowledge about the dangers of multiple fleet types, raising fleet size too fast, blah, blah, blah)

Allocation of 50 of Jet's Former 737 Planes:

10 to Vistara (6 in May , 4 in June)

40 to Spicejet

In addition to the above, I wonder how many of Jet's planes will AirAsia India get.

Meanwhile Air India Express is set to hire 250 Jet staff.

Source: See the body of the report on allocation of jet's former planes.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 122780.cms
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 3:06 am

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:

Now, airlines are not buying candies from the store. They are buying planes. Big expensive planes which require a whole host of logistics to be set in place to operate them. They can't do that over night when introducing a new aircraft type to the fleet all of a sudden, especially a small 20 odd fleet airline. Ofcourse you wish they do that, and you go by your own beliefs always because it excites you. But that's not how it works.

Airlines making rash decisions.... .


Actually, I was wrong only to the extent of the degree to which Vistara moved. Vistara is taking on an even more "rash" (your word) decision than I expected -- 10 planes not 6 and increasing its fleet size by a whopping 50% in less than 2 months) Now what was it that you were saying about your aviation knowledge about the dangers of multiple fleet types, raising fleet size too fast, blah, blah, blah)

Allocation of 50 of Jet's Former 737 Planes:

10 to Vistara (6 in May , 4 in June)

40 to Spicejet

In addition to the above, I wonder how many of Jet's planes will AirAsia India get.

Meanwhile Air India Express is set to hire 250 Jet staff.

Source: See the body of the report on allocation of jet's former planes.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 122780.cms

Err... Previous sources were 22 Jet 737ng to SpiceJet plus other commitments. If it increased that much... Rash.

5 to AI express.

IIRC, 84 737ng to allocate.

I actually hope that was a typo. If SpiceJet is taking 40, that is too much risk.

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Andy33
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 7:26 am

lightsaber wrote:

IIRC, 84 737ng to allocate.

Lightsaber

Is that net of planes that have been removed from the Indian registry and flown away by the lessors?
It isn't all that likely that any of these will see India again, lessors may well have already reached agreement with airlines elsewhere in the world to take them.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 10:06 am

High court sets July 16 court date for passenger refunds:
https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ig-2031321

A wee bit late...
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 10:57 am

lightsaber wrote:
High court sets July 16 court date for passenger refunds:
https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ig-2031321

A wee bit late...


Am I reading this correctly? Are they basically posting a huge billboard sign:
"All secured creditors: better take note. Any asset that you don't drag out of Jet Airways by July 16, might get passenger refund liability stapled to it by courts."
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 1:52 pm

A overview of where Jet pilots are going/have gone:

https://m.businesstoday.in/lite/story/j ... 42297.html

It looks like the ME3 will interview a hundred. 250 were smart enough to leave before shutdown. The article does note almost all are taking pay cuts. AI union is fighting hiring, except as new hires.


Phosphorus wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
High court sets July 16 court date for passenger refunds:
https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ig-2031321

A wee bit late...


Am I reading this correctly? Are they basically posting a huge billboard sign:
"All secured creditors: better take note. Any asset that you don't drag out of Jet Airways by July 16, might get passenger refund liability stapled to it by courts."

Yes. I concur. However, this could be postponed again. If secured creditors do not get their due, this shall impact the terms of secured loans for all of India. Be careful having arbitrary law, the other side must assume the worst.

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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 4:03 pm

DGCA has deregistered a total of 56 Jet aircraft so far
(Note: grounding, request for deregister and actual deregister are 3 different actions, so let the smart ones among us not fall for a wise quip about 300 Jet Airways aircraft being repossessed)
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 4:26 pm

unrave wrote:
DGCA has deregistered a total of 56 Jet aircraft so far
(Note: grounding, request for deregister and actual deregister are 3 different actions, so let the smart ones among us not fall for a wise quip about 300 Jet Airways aircraft being repossessed)


Please give a bifurcation . Reports by media are very confusing .
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 6:50 pm

unrave wrote:
DGCA has deregistered a total of 56 Jet aircraft so far
(Note: grounding, request for deregister and actual deregister are 3 different actions, so let the smart ones among us not fall for a wise quip about 300 Jet Airways aircraft being repossessed)

Of the 56, we know Vistara is getting 10 and SpiceJet is getting 40 — it is still unclear if the 40 are all ex Jet planes. Assuming it is this means there are 10 available for AirAsia India.

The lessors that haven’t yet filed to deregister must be hoping against hope that Jet would be rescued. What do they know that we don’t know?
 
Andy33
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 7:12 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
DGCA has deregistered a total of 56 Jet aircraft so far
(Note: grounding, request for deregister and actual deregister are 3 different actions, so let the smart ones among us not fall for a wise quip about 300 Jet Airways aircraft being repossessed)

Of the 56, we know Vistara is getting 10 and SpiceJet is getting 40 — it is still unclear if the 40 are all ex Jet planes. Assuming it is this means there are 10 available for AirAsia India.

The lessors that haven’t yet filed to deregister must be hoping against hope that Jet would be rescued. What do they know that we don’t know?


I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded, so the 56 deregistered planes unrave refers to aren't going to Vistara, Spicejet, or Air Asia India. Any ex-Jet planes they get come from the planes that haven't been deregistered yet.
It is possible that some deregistered planes that are still physically parked at Indian airports might be re-registered with DGCA - but since the owners will have paid to have them de-registered and then paid again to have them re-registered, it is unlikely. Several posters have recorded specific planes from the 56 being flown out of India, and where they are now.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 10:01 pm

Andy33 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
DGCA has deregistered a total of 56 Jet aircraft so far
(Note: grounding, request for deregister and actual deregister are 3 different actions, so let the smart ones among us not fall for a wise quip about 300 Jet Airways aircraft being repossessed)

Of the 56, we know Vistara is getting 10 and SpiceJet is getting 40 — it is still unclear if the 40 are all ex Jet planes. Assuming it is this means there are 10 available for AirAsia India.

The lessors that haven’t yet filed to deregister must be hoping against hope that Jet would be rescued. What do they know that we don’t know?


I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded, so the 56 deregistered planes unrave refers to aren't going to Vistara, Spicejet, or Air Asia India. Any ex-Jet planes they get come from the planes that haven't been deregistered yet.
It is possible that some deregistered planes that are still physically parked at Indian airports might be re-registered with DGCA - but since the owners will have paid to have them de-registered and then paid again to have them re-registered, it is unlikely. Several posters have recorded specific planes from the 56 being flown out of India, and where they are now.

I thought in India aircraft are deregistered, flown to the leasing nation, flown back to receive a new registration. For the Jet fiasco, DGCA made noise about waiving the flight out and back.

So I believe these 56 can be reallocated to Indian airlines. Rules are being suspended.

Is there a link to 40 by SpiceJet? That is higher than the sources I find.

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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 10:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Of the 56, we know Vistara is getting 10 and SpiceJet is getting 40 — it is still unclear if the 40 are all ex Jet planes. Assuming it is this means there are 10 available for AirAsia India.

The lessors that haven’t yet filed to deregister must be hoping against hope that Jet would be rescued. What do they know that we don’t know?


I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded, so the 56 deregistered planes unrave refers to aren't going to Vistara, Spicejet, or Air Asia India. Any ex-Jet planes they get come from the planes that haven't been deregistered yet.
It is possible that some deregistered planes that are still physically parked at Indian airports might be re-registered with DGCA - but since the owners will have paid to have them de-registered and then paid again to have them re-registered, it is unlikely. Several posters have recorded specific planes from the 56 being flown out of India, and where they are now.

I thought in India aircraft are deregistered, flown to the leasing nation, flown back to receive a new registration. For the Jet fiasco, DGCA made noise about waiving the flight out and back.

So I believe these 56 can be reallocated to Indian airlines. Rules are being suspended.

Is there a link to 40 by SpiceJet? That is higher than the sources I find.

Lightsaber


This is the news report about SpiceJet leasing 40 ex-Jet Airways 737: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 122780.cms
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 10:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Of the 56, we know Vistara is getting 10 and SpiceJet is getting 40 — it is still unclear if the 40 are all ex Jet planes. Assuming it is this means there are 10 available for AirAsia India.

The lessors that haven’t yet filed to deregister must be hoping against hope that Jet would be rescued. What do they know that we don’t know?


I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded, so the 56 deregistered planes unrave refers to aren't going to Vistara, Spicejet, or Air Asia India. Any ex-Jet planes they get come from the planes that haven't been deregistered yet.
It is possible that some deregistered planes that are still physically parked at Indian airports might be re-registered with DGCA - but since the owners will have paid to have them de-registered and then paid again to have them re-registered, it is unlikely. Several posters have recorded specific planes from the 56 being flown out of India, and where they are now.

I thought in India aircraft are deregistered, flown to the leasing nation, flown back to receive a new registration. For the Jet fiasco, DGCA made noise about waiving the flight out and back.

So I believe these 56 can be reallocated to Indian airlines. Rules are being suspended.

Is there a link to 40 by SpiceJet? That is higher than the sources I find.

Lightsaber

Check my prior posts on allocation of 50 aircraft , 40 of which is for Spicejet. I had provided a link and specifically stated that you can find this reference in the body of the article ( the article main point was about something else— Jet employee’s moving to Air India
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 10:37 pm

Which banks are providing additional working capital to Spicejet so it can lease an ADDITIONAL 40 planes in pretty much one shot? are SBI and PNB back in the game? Why has no journalist looked into this?
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 01, 2019 11:14 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Which banks are providing additional working capital to Spicejet so it can lease an ADDITIONAL 40 planes in pretty much one shot? are SBI and PNB back in the game? Why has no journalist looked into this?


Why should a journalist look into it? Bank lands money to business that is making money - how is this news
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 12:07 am

Antarius wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Which banks are providing additional working capital to Spicejet so it can lease an ADDITIONAL 40 planes in pretty much one shot? are SBI and PNB back in the game? Why has no journalist looked into this?


Why should a journalist look into it? Bank lands money to business that is making money - how is this news


Good question. And here are many reasons:

1. Have banks tightened their lending requirements to airlines, post Jet's collapse, or are they same?

2. Getting 40 planes in 1 shot is a large commitment for SpiceJet by any standard. I mean, they are not exactly floating in money. If they can pull this off, it makes a good Financial story (others can learn from it -- The Wall Street Journal or Livemint, etc. cover good business stories.

3. Were banks pressured (for political reasons) to extend loans?

4. Their scaling up rapidly is a daring plan. This would make a great business story, no matter how you look at it -- from an "operations" (logistics), "contracting", "financing", "marketing", etc,.

Kudos to SpiceJet. They capitalized on an opportunity. Let's learn about it for good or for bad.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 12:09 am

Andy33 wrote:
I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded,


If I understand correctly every time the plane changes hands it needs to re-registered even within India. I am sure someone will fact check every assumption.
All posts are just opinions.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 12:25 am

Another attempt by the Government to discourage any bid for Jet (I mean why do they even bother)

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 56142.html
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 12:40 am

The Indian quest to find a scapegoat commences. They are doing this before the bidding closes. Now, why would Etihad want to bid?

Jet collapse: pilots ask PM to probe Etihad’s ‘role’
https://www.thehindu.com/business/jet-c ... epage=true
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 1:28 am

edealinfo wrote:
The Indian quest to find a scapegoat commences. They are doing this before the bidding closes. Now, why would Etihad want to bid?

Jet collapse: pilots ask PM to probe Etihad’s ‘role’
https://www.thehindu.com/business/jet-c ... epage=true

Review bilaterals? Does that mean India wants to revert to the prior bilateral? That or cancelling are the only unilateral actions allowed.

This really pours salt in EY's wound! LoL. I think they have already learned how bad the investment was.

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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 3:33 am

ET reports that only NIIF has accessed the data room so far, and that even if its bids it would be interested in acquiring a maximum of 20%
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... s?from=mdr

Meanwhile AAI has asked Jet Airways to vacate its office space in airports across the country
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/aai-a ... 153291.htm
17April2019: RIP Jet Airways
 
Andy33
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 7:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Of the 56, we know Vistara is getting 10 and SpiceJet is getting 40 — it is still unclear if the 40 are all ex Jet planes. Assuming it is this means there are 10 available for AirAsia India.

The lessors that haven’t yet filed to deregister must be hoping against hope that Jet would be rescued. What do they know that we don’t know?


I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded, so the 56 deregistered planes unrave refers to aren't going to Vistara, Spicejet, or Air Asia India. Any ex-Jet planes they get come from the planes that haven't been deregistered yet.
It is possible that some deregistered planes that are still physically parked at Indian airports might be re-registered with DGCA - but since the owners will have paid to have them de-registered and then paid again to have them re-registered, it is unlikely. Several posters have recorded specific planes from the 56 being flown out of India, and where they are now.

I thought in India aircraft are deregistered, flown to the leasing nation, flown back to receive a new registration. For the Jet fiasco, DGCA made noise about waiving the flight out and back.

So I believe these 56 can be reallocated to Indian airlines. Rules are being suspended.

Is there a link to 40 by SpiceJet? That is higher than the sources I find.

Lightsaber

I stand corrected, then. Apologies to all.
But why is it necessary to deregister a plane, register it in some other country, fly it there, fly it back to India again, and re-register it? Does the DGCA really have no procedure at all for changing the operator associated with a registration? Or does the act of flying it away remove some financial penalty?
And surely once a 737NG gets to (say) Ireland, there's nothing to stop the leasing company leasing it out or selling it to to one of the many airlines worldwide who are looking for 738s either for their own sake or as substitutes for grounded MAX8s. Probably in countries that apply the Capetown procedures quickly and in full so the lessors don't get caught in the red tape again.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 7:57 am

Jet Airways management in talks with airlines to place its staffers

The management of troubled carrier Jet Airways is in talks with more than 15 companies including rival carriers to facilitate alternative employment for its distressed staff
Jet’s chief people officer, Rahul Taneja, has been in talks with his peers at Vistara and SpiceJet as well as e-commerce companies such as Amazon trying to get them to hire Jet employees, especially those employed as cabin crew.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economictimes.com/industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/jet-airways-management-in-talks-with-airlines-to-place-its-staffers/amp_articleshow/69137468.cms

How sweet I say. Maybe 9W knows its own fate so helping their staff with new jobs.

Jet's death has infact been a huge gift for other airlines in almost every way. It's a feast for the competition indeed.
 
smartplane
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 9:11 am

Andy33 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Andy33 wrote:

I don't think you understand what deregistering means. If a plane is removed from the DGCA's register, it means it can no longer be used by any Indian airline, and is the precursor to removing it from the country or scrapping it. There's no point in deregistering a plane that is going to be used by another Indian airline - it can remain on the register with just a change of operator being recorded, so the 56 deregistered planes unrave refers to aren't going to Vistara, Spicejet, or Air Asia India. Any ex-Jet planes they get come from the planes that haven't been deregistered yet.
It is possible that some deregistered planes that are still physically parked at Indian airports might be re-registered with DGCA - but since the owners will have paid to have them de-registered and then paid again to have them re-registered, it is unlikely. Several posters have recorded specific planes from the 56 being flown out of India, and where they are now.

I thought in India aircraft are deregistered, flown to the leasing nation, flown back to receive a new registration. For the Jet fiasco, DGCA made noise about waiving the flight out and back.

So I believe these 56 can be reallocated to Indian airlines. Rules are being suspended.

Is there a link to 40 by SpiceJet? That is higher than the sources I find.

Lightsaber

I stand corrected, then. Apologies to all.
But why is it necessary to deregister a plane, register it in some other country, fly it there, fly it back to India again, and re-register it? Does the DGCA really have no procedure at all for changing the operator associated with a registration? Or does the act of flying it away remove some financial penalty?
And surely once a 737NG gets to (say) Ireland, there's nothing to stop the leasing company leasing it out or selling it to to one of the many airlines worldwide who are looking for 738s either for their own sake or as substitutes for grounded MAX8s. Probably in countries that apply the Capetown procedures quickly and in full so the lessors don't get caught in the red tape again.

De-registering / re-registering is very important, especially in respect to leasing (one attraction of which is tax effectiveness), as it signifies the end and start of an ownership / operation phase. It also has customs and duty implications.

Failure to go through this process can not only extinguish the tax benefits accrued, but actually trigger their retrospective loss. When a lease or finance is the subject of a default, it ensures the aircraft won't be seized in relation to prior debts (for example fuel and/or airport fees related to the specific aircraft).

In the good old days, the de-register / re-register process required the aircraft to physically return to the country of beneficial ownership. Later, if aircraft range and crew hours permitted, they performed a touch and go, and even more recently, could overfly. Providing both countries involved agree, there is no longer a requirement for physical return and departure.

As aviation fuel use and emissions comes under greater scrutiny, the UN is lobbying for all countries to remove the requirement for physical return. Post-CORSIA, the flight is likely to be classified as non-revenue / discretionary, attracting carbon penalties in respect to countries over flown (return to owner), arrival/departure, countries over flown and final arrival (new owner/new lessee).
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 11:32 am

smartplane wrote:
when a lease or finance is the subject of a default, it ensures the aircraft won't be seized in relation to prior debts (for example fuel and/or airport fees.
.

India has made its own rules. One can’t deregister an aircraft without clearing past dues (airport fees, fuel etc). There is no law about it. Some bureaucrat just made up the policy, it took a written form, and is now applied as a rule. As I said, this is India.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 11:55 am

edealinfo wrote:
smartplane wrote:
when a lease or finance is the subject of a default, it ensures the aircraft won't be seized in relation to prior debts (for example fuel and/or airport fees.
.

India has made its own rules. One can’t deregister an aircraft without clearing past dues (airport fees, fuel etc). There is no law about it. Some bureaucrat just made up the policy, it took a written form, and is now applied as a rule. As I said, this is India.


So there were no past dues on the aircraft de-registered so far?
If there were no dues why oil companies stopped supplies which led to the suspension of ops?
If there were dues, did SBI clear those after ops were suspended?

The final result never fits the originally stated rule.

In summary, India has no rules.
All posts are just opinions.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 1:36 pm

edealinfo wrote:
smartplane wrote:
when a lease or finance is the subject of a default, it ensures the aircraft won't be seized in relation to prior debts (for example fuel and/or airport fees.
.

India has made its own rules. One can’t deregister an aircraft without clearing past dues (airport fees, fuel etc). There is no law about it. Some bureaucrat just made up the policy, it took a written form, and is now applied as a rule. As I said, this is India.


Who understands Indian rules. I am curious how the dutch courts allowed the Jet aircraft to be seized in AMS for an unsecured debt. Seems odd. But I am no lawyer and this is above my experience.

The Tatas once looked at buying Jet. Why would they not rapidly invest in Vistara and allow them to accelerate their expansion (especially international). Seems so strange. To be honest, if Spice and Indigo were really serious in expanding with wide bodies, isn't now the time? Have a small J cabin (18 seats or so like AI 787) and cram Y and go go go. The one good thing is the Winter season brings in a lot of tourists so new international flights launched strategically and with partners have a better chance of not bleeding too much at launch.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 1:46 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
.... I am curious how the dutch courts allowed the Jet aircraft to be seized in AMS for an unsecured debt. Seems odd....


In principle, it's actually quite simple. The unsecured creditor has exhausted all ways of collecting debt, short of going to court. So, he went to court, and got an order, authorizing a lien on any asset of the debtor he could find. The creditor found an asset -- an airplane, belonging to Jet, and posted a lien against it. Now, he is a secured creditor, and the airplane is his security.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 1:54 pm

No bidders:
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1S81A0

It seems the outstanding debt is just too much

My opinion is back in October, or when the first non-executive pay was missed, Jet should have gone into receivership when it could have been saved. I know I keep repeating myself, but India really needs to look at the UK and USA to fix their receivership/bankruptcy laws. In my opinion they do nothing to protect worker rights.

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avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 2:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I know I keep repeating myself, but India really needs to look at the UK and USA to fix their receivership/bankruptcy laws. In my opinion they do nothing to protect worker rights.

Everything in the country is done with a don't care, lackadaisical attitude. They just keep dragging cases forever instead of fixing it from the start. The lenders seem like they don't even care of the outcome of the bidding process, and make very casual statements about it here and there. At the end, none would be held accountable amongst the lenders for the loans being a complete write off, and they will just continue with their normal lives.
AI needs a lot of funds now (9000Cr repayment this fiscal), and I'm wondering how funding takes place for them: directly from govt. or through public sector banks. If the latter, again money thrown away.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 2:29 pm

avier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I know I keep repeating myself, but India really needs to look at the UK and USA to fix their receivership/bankruptcy laws. In my opinion they do nothing to protect worker rights.

Everything in the country is done with a don't care, lackadaisical attitude. They just keep dragging cases forever instead of fixing it from the start. The lenders seem like they don't even care of the outcome of the bidding process, and make very casual statements about it here and there. At the end, none would be held accountable amongst the lenders for the loans being a complete write off, and they will just continue with their normal lives.
AI needs a lot of funds now (9000Cr repayment this fiscal), and I'm wondering how funding takes place for them: directly from govt. or through public sector banks. If the latter, again money thrown away.

There are a few large insolvencies going on in India. The banks are going to have a cash flow issue. This is aviation related as a lack of other new loans could reduce growth. It is never good to weaken the banking sector or inefficiently direct funding. It reduces new contracts which is so much premium traffic.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 2:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
There are a few large insolvencies going on in India. The banks are going to have a cash flow issue. This is aviation related as a lack of other new loans could reduce growth. It is never good to weaken the banking sector or inefficiently direct funding. It reduces new contracts which is so much premium traffic.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/law-and-policy/nclat-allows-banks-to-declare-defaulting-ilfs-accounts-as-npas
Today's some news similar to that.

Jet's will be no different. Then life just goes on normally for all.(except some unlucky employees).
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 4:08 pm

lightsaber wrote:
No bidders:
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1S81A0

It seems the outstanding debt is just too much

My opinion is back in October, or when the first non-executive pay was missed, Jet should have gone into receivership when it could have been saved. I know I keep repeating myself, but India really needs to look at the UK and USA to fix their receivership/bankruptcy laws. In my opinion they do nothing to protect worker rights.

Lightsaber


I don't think it will change. Big business in India is so used of using influence to get rules bent, they don't want rules that allow them to potentially be removed from managing a failing company. Family run businesses would probably fight this. It is really the Indian banks who should demand real bankruptcy / receivership laws. They lose the money while the one in charge holds on as long as they think they can save the company (which shouldn't be their call). Prime example of the - Goyal
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 4:42 pm

Tend to agree with the above.

Even if India had US style laws, the egos of certain individuals and involvement of government may have meant it wouldn't have helped
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 5:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

So there were no past dues on the aircraft de-registered so far?
If there were no dues why oil companies stopped supplies which led to the suspension of ops?
If there were dues, did SBI clear those after ops were suspended?

My understanding is that all dues ( as in Jet’s case) on the aircraft (taxes, fuel, airport costs) have to be paid by the lessor. Plus the lessor can’t collect the dues (outstanding lease charge) owned to them (obviously). lessors have the raw end of the stick. It must feel like sh$t having to pick up Jet’s tab for airport charges etc. just get back their own aircraft

Oil companies have zero risk if they think the lessor will pay. However no oil company provides credit based on such a fall back option.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 5:18 pm

edealinfo wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

So there were no past dues on the aircraft de-registered so far?
If there were no dues why oil companies stopped supplies which led to the suspension of ops?
If there were dues, did SBI clear those after ops were suspended?

My understanding is that all dues ( as in Jet’s case) on the aircraft (taxes, fuel, airport costs) have to be paid by the lessor. Plus the lessor can’t collect the dues (outstanding lease charge) owned to them (obviously). lessors have the raw end of the stick. It must feel like sh$t having to pick up Jet’s tab for airport charges etc. just get back their own aircraft

Oil companies have zero risk if they think the lessor will pay. However no oil company provides credit based on such a fall back option.

Leasing companies are just getting a lesson to price in the risk. Do not expect them to suffer. Other Indian airlines get to pick up the tab.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 02, 2019 5:21 pm

Lenders "have no hard assets to liquidate" so there is no incentive to force bankruptcy.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKCN1S81A0

Oh, this is a quagmire. This will be a MBA case study. India needs to get in front of their laws before a generation of MBAs is taught this lesson.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.

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