binayak
Posts: 967
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 3:51 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

I can't think of very many people in DEL/BOM/BLR that want more ME connectivity. People want more nonstop connectivity to different global cities and more airline choice

I can't think of very many people in DEL/BOM/BLR who pick Indian carriers over ME3.


All my colleagues and friends at BOM take ME3 only if their destination isn't connected non stop to BOM (Even for one stops, they prioritise FFP to anything else. One of them is a OW gold and was jp platinum . He doesn't take EK after EK-9W partnership stopped because of miles. Currently he prioritises QR among the ME3 because of OW status)
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
bennett123
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 4:46 pm

Personally, I would have reservations in booking with any Indian carrier until they sort out who gets which slots.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 4:52 pm

binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

I can't think of very many people in DEL/BOM/BLR that want more ME connectivity. People want more nonstop connectivity to different global cities and more airline choice

I can't think of very many people in DEL/BOM/BLR who pick Indian carriers over ME3.


All my colleagues and friends at BOM take ME3 only if their destination isn't connected non stop to BOM (Even for one stops, they prioritise FFP to anything else. One of them is a OW gold and was jp platinum . He doesn't take EK after EK-9W partnership stopped because of miles. Currently he prioritises QR among the ME3 because of OW status)


Makes logical sense. I am very open that I am first a Skymiles guy and then OW/Star and last (way last) am I independent airlines like EK. But that is just me and I am not everyone. Will say again - to each their own.

to unrave - no one is saying to force people to connect in India or use an Indian airline. But if you fly AMD-DEL-CDG, even with DEL-CDG on AF, you still added jobs in India for the local airline flying AMD-DEL and jobs at the connecting airport DEL. DXB, AMS, HKG etc employ tons of people and help drive their economies. But once again no one is saying forced. You keep going with that. You view it as a zero sum game - meaning - if India has a hub airport (not for you to connect but other people who prefer or don't mind connecting in India, some how people like you that do not want to connect in India lose. All people like me are saying is that there should be both options for consumers. Unclear to me why you resist it so much.
 
avier
Posts: 894
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 5:22 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
[ But once again no one is saying forced. You keep going with that. You view it as a zero sum game - meaning - if India has a hub airport (not for you to connect but other people who prefer or don't mind connecting in India, some how people like you that do not want to connect in India lose. All people like me are saying is that there should be both options for consumers. Unclear to me why you resist it so much.


It's ironic how users (tier2/3 residents) on here are complaining of connecting at larger airports of the home country and demanding only connections via ME3 and such airports, when in actuality their int'l connectivity is now far worse with 9W shutdown and if they are lucky to have an AI flight, they might have some hope or else it's some LCC with change of terminals/loss of baggage allowance options. They should be grateful they even have some option left right now to connect with the world, like say AI if they are lucky at the most.
Beggars can't be choosers. They must take what they have. And if they resist BOM/DEL, they'll have zero options left to connect on a single ticket to rest of the world. Try flying Vadodara to the rest of the world and see what convenient options you really have.
And yes, a point you mentioned in your earlier posts; for small Indian towns it's almost like a prestige factor when a phoren airline touches down at their local airport. It doesn't matter if it's even Uzbekistan airlines or Iran Air, they just want something phoren coming to their soil. Indian's afterall with their phoren obsession.
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 5:42 pm

Antarius wrote:
The goal of a government is to do best for the people, not prop up arbitrary corporations. Why exactly is it ok that Delta is there and EU carriers but not the ME3?

If the ME3 serve the needs of the traveling populace, then so be it. If not, someone else will fill the void. Your attitude is what's led to decades of Air India quality aviation.

Because having a premium non-stop from USA to BOM is more important, for one stop from USA. ME carriers providing a convenience of various options of 100s of city pairs is irrelevant.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 6:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
aarbee wrote:
Have your ever gone through the bag rechecking process in India? Even the then Jet Airways re-checking was horrendous compared to handing of the bags at ORD, DTW, IAD, JFK. And yeah I never had to hunt for onward boarding passes at these airports..


Went thru BOM, DEL and BLR four times, one-time DL-AI interline, twice on DL-9W code-share, once on LH-9W. It is a breeze. Immigration, Customs, Recheck and Security was very quick. Passport control and security staff were very professional at all three airports.

If it worked for you great for you. I never said any of the personnel were un-professional. The process, the queues, the walking effort are all terrible.

dtw2hyd wrote:
DL and 9W print BP and tag bags all the way. 9W transfer bag counter is next to the Indian customs exit. If you are a premium pax or SkyMiles higher status, your bags priority tags. Only on DL-AI interline, I have to get a BP from AI counter at DEL.

I know, been there done that. It took 30 plus minutes to hand off the bags and the counter could not provide onward boarding pass - go figure.

dtw2hyd wrote:
In March '19 because of 9W fiasco my 3:15 AM BOM-HYD was canceled and rebooked on 6:55 AM flight. Though the 7 hr layover was painful, I walked around and enjoyed the BOM T2 artwork, which is unique in the world, and food. I noticed BOM T2 actually has an International Transit area, without going thru Indian passport control.

It's one thing departing India. Transit while arrival to India is horrendous. Have you tried walking and admiring the artwork at 3am in the morning? Good for you that you enjoyed.

Huh! How would transit via BOM from HYD without going passport control on 9W? That's a first? AI is different thing, if you take their "international connector" flight.

dtw2hyd wrote:

I agree Tier2/3 deserve more direct/non-stop options where there is enough demand. That actually relieves pressure on BOM and DEL. But if every few years one airline goes out of business, backfilling BOM and DEL becomes top priority and Tier2/3 connectivity will remain a low priority.

There was a hope for 9W HYD-AMS or AI HYD-LHR. Now ZERO chance for the next five years. Even AI will not waste an LHR slot for HYD when BOM-LHR premium pax are scrambling.

Are Dubai Malls still a real attraction? Malls in the US are dying, and even teenagers are not showing interest to go to malls.

Why do you think people fancy malls only? 3 hour layover in AUH/DOH/DXB is more pleasant and relaxing then transiting through BOM at 3 am in night.

I wouldn't be surprised if your views were different, if DTW had N/S to middle east

Cheers

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 6:56 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Is AdiGroup legit? They are saying they want to invest and hopefully partner with EY. Any thoughts on them?

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 50671.html


Mumbai probably has a half a dozen $Billionaires who can invest in Jet.


Is there a business case for those half a dozen billionaires to invest in Jet?

dtw2hyd wrote:
If GoI sincerely asks UAE, EY would have invested more.

Then there will complains about crony capitalism


dtw2hyd wrote:
Delta has several $Billions of cash reserves. This is not a lack of investment funds issue.

How/where would Delta invest those Billions just in one Indian airline?

dtw2hyd wrote:
There is some unwritten rule somewhere that 9W has to go. Everyone just jumped on the bad investment bandwagon.

Probably after five years, there will be books and blogs about the truth.

Conspiracy theory ?
Love the AIXes
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 7:23 pm

aarbee wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
There is some unwritten rule somewhere that 9W has to go. Everyone just jumped on the bad investment bandwagon.

Probably after five years, there will be books and blogs about the truth.


Conspiracy theory ?


Read back to the start of this thread. This same poster was claiming that 9W was fine and we were paid to write fake news.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 8:08 pm

Antarius wrote:
aarbee wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
There is some unwritten rule somewhere that 9W has to go. Everyone just jumped on the bad investment bandwagon.

Probably after five years, there will be books and blogs about the truth.


Conspiracy theory ?


Read back to the start of this thread. This same poster was claiming that 9W was fine and we were paid to write fake news.

I am confused. So, is Arnee or antarius the fake news person
 
VTORD
Posts: 526
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 9:28 pm

avier wrote:
Beggars can't be choosers. They must take what they have. And if they resist BOM/DEL, they'll have zero options left to connect on a single ticket to rest of the world. Try flying Vadodara to the rest of the world and see what convenient options you really have.


Have been doing exactly that for the last 13 years from said airport and was used to up to 6 even 7-hr layovers in BOM either on the way in or out depending upon the airline I was flying. It wasn't fun And now I am down to 6E. AI stopped flying BOM-BDQ almost 10 years ago. (For the record 9W/6E added multiple flights AFTER AI withdrew from the route). So what are my options? I can take EK to AMD and drive 90 minutes home. It's convenient. Nothing against 9W. Or BOM. QR I do not fly out of a matter of principle.

avier wrote:
And yes, a point you mentioned in your earlier posts; for small Indian towns it's almost like a prestige factor when a phoren airline touches down at their local airport. It doesn't matter if it's even Uzbekistan airlines or Iran Air, they just want something phoren coming to their soil. Indian's afterall with their phoren obsession.

Speaking for myself, I have absolutely no such illusions or aspirations for my home airport. I am not in to that WWWAS kind of crap.
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 9:30 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity.


And pray, why should they. If it does not fit their business plan why bother? Even if they wanted ti, they cannot suddenly go FSC because you fancey.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.

Don't put your one stop BOM preferences on small towns.

Significant smaller towns already had option didn't care if Jet had international service or not.

-R


Where did I say full service? I said long haul international. And where did I say Indigo and Spice need to ramp up connecting pax through BOM. They should go where ever in India they want to have a hub. But somehow the international capacity needs to built up.

As far as the bids. If none our real they should directly move to liquidation (which should be clear of most debts because you are selling the asset to pay off the debt). Hopefully some infrastructure can be saved. If the rumors of vistara wanting Jets 77W are true, I am all for them getting them cheap. Better an Indian company get the ROI on it rather than abroad (as the Indian taxpayer paid for the bad loans)



OK. You did not say full service?
Would you care to expand on " Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity".

Between Spice and Indigo they cover all the way up to Istanbul, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.

Where should they have covered Jet's international capacity? Most of the "suspended" destinations in near region are already covered by them.

Leaves North America and Western Europe. Did you expect the "long haul international" to be LCC covered. 9-16 hours of flight on single aisle no frills airlines? Even if one keeps ME3 on the side, there is broad coverage from Western Europe to BOM, DEL, BLR, etc.

Also just because Jet folded does not necessitate Spice/Indigo to change their business plans to and be considered failure if choose not to satisfy your ideas.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 9:39 pm

binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
Indian cricket team was to fly Jet for 2019 World Cup in London, but now switched to another airline. And no, it's not Air India. Poor cricketers have to take a stop-over. Now talk of filling Jet's shoes.


Ahead of 2019 World Cup, Virat Kohli forced to switch fleet following Jet Airways shutdown
https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/ahead-of-2019-world-cup-virat-kohli-forced-to-switch-fleet-following-jet-airways-shutdown/articleshow/69317487.cms


Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 . Who cares whether it's good for India in the long run or is it a missed opportunity ! After all the success of Indian aviation is pax are getting $500 India US fares . No need to value time at all.


Sure because we don't want to travel through BOM/DEL we don't value our time.

As a matter fact, I pay anywhere between 300-500USD premium to avoid BOM and finish journey from door-door in around 24 hours. If I choose to save the money and transit through BOM/DEL it would take me almost between 32-36 hours door to door.

You got it reverse my friend.

As far as missed opportunity for India is concerned, it's the airlines to blame. They could not get their thinking out of BOM/DEL/NYC/LHR/YYZ. There is rest of India.

Sigh. Again "No need to value time at all". Unbelievable.

As a matter of fact the $500 pax are the ones targeted to your precious BOM and DEL and the O/D from their avail them. Not us. :roll:
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 9:41 pm

unrave wrote:
binayak wrote:

Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 . Who cares whether it's good for India in the long run or is it a missed opportunity ! After all the success of Indian aviation is pax are getting $500 India US fares . No need to value time at all.


The ones in favour of "convenient non-stop time saving" travel should have been willing to pay more so that the airline could have survived on revenues and not on taxpayer funded bank loans.

Exactly. The only ones using the $500 fares, I know are the ones who go to the precious BOM/DEL and not choose their hometown airline to save.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 9:46 pm

VTORD wrote:
avier wrote:
It's not what everyone wants, only desi small town residents here on a.net. Since for them, they ANYWAYS have to take a one-stop or more to connect globally be it through Dubai, Doha, Singapore, Mumbai or Delhi. But for mega city pax it definitely does matter, especially for those who value time and don't want to be forced to spend time in a crowded shopping mall while making a stop-over.

What are you saying? That small town "desi" residents do not belong on a.net? OR small time desi residents do not "value time"?
Now I am not one of those WWWAS types but I am a small town desi. I fly EK precisely to save time not because I am enamored with shopping malls for god sake! What is wrong with that? Many times I make an extended halt in BOM, because I have deep family ties and roots there, then I fly non-ME3 options. It's literally that simple.

binayak wrote:
Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 .

I don't think anyone wants that. But if the ME3 are convenient so be it. That does not automatically mean abhorrence for Jet or BOM. You are taking this personally. Sure in the short term it will be a PITA but I am sure in the long run, the corps will be fine and Virat Kohli and the boys won't lose the cup because they had a stop over in DXB! Cheers! :lol:

Cheers my desi small town fellow. :champagne:
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 9:52 pm

JOYA380B747 wrote:

It is quite a commonplace thing to see these happen. According to most of the "mega city pax" (esp BOM & DEL) there is nothing much going on outside their concrete jungle. Folks in the rest of the country, according to their imagination, are either playing ping-pong in their offices or having picnic outdoors. Humility is a trait that has never been welcome in these cities, making them forget where the raw materials, building blocks and driving force behind their "mega pax" status originates from. Sadly this "bubble" is too strong.


Ha ha ha ... Seriously all play ping pong outside of BOM/DEL , especially south of Parle to Chembur line . :)

"Humulity" ... nailed it.
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vadodara
Posts: 935
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 16, 2019 10:07 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Wasn't Jet's international market share out of BOM like 30% or 35% and most of Jet's pax are India origin. Also AI still carries pax out of BOM even with much fewer flights. So unclear where you are getting your facts. BOM has a ton of airline choices so let's not forget all the international carriers aside from the ME3. The binary choice seems to be ME3 or Indian/ non ME3 carriers. BOM/DEL are good cities to see what Indian pax actual preferences are (meaning are the ME shopping hubs really an attraction). For the last few years, the likes of EY and OR (EK I don't monitor since it is not in an alliance) offered $800 fares to the US. Hardly a ringing endorsement in favor of the ME3 when pax have choice. If EK is the only intl airlines serving your city, I totally get the premium. But from/to BOM/DEL, the ME3 carry more bulk/discount fare pax then premium fares. But to avoid the normal back an forth, I will say this - do the ME have value, yes; do some pax like them, yes; should they fly to BOM/India, yes; are they God's gift to India. NO.

Plural of anecdote is not data.
The fact that the two Indian carriers that flew long haul from Indian "hub" airports are in financial ruin speaks about the viability of these airports to function as hubs. The are about a dozen competent profitable well run major airlines based at airports around India who are more than willing to provide connectivity to airports outside of the big 5. The GoI should let them fly and not force everyone to use Indian airports (where again these travellers end up flying non Indian airlines anyway)


Umm yes! If Jet Airways was phenomenal then why did it disappear?

All those Class F seats, not enough Mumbaikars filled with, left a few holes in the banks and oil companies pockets.

And NG became a billionaire. Seems like a very motivated fan base.
 
binayak
Posts: 967
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 17, 2019 1:37 am

aarbee wrote:
binayak wrote:

Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 . Who cares whether it's good for India in the long run or is it a missed opportunity ! After all the success of Indian aviation is pax are getting $500 India US fares . No need to value time at all.


Sure because we don't want to travel through BOM/DEL we don't value our time.

As a matter fact, I pay anywhere between 300-500USD premium to avoid BOM and finish journey from door-door in around 24 hours. If I choose to save the money and transit through BOM/DEL it would take me almost between 32-36 hours door to door.

You got it reverse my friend.

As far as missed opportunity for India is concerned, it's the airlines to blame. They could not get their thinking out of BOM/DEL/NYC/LHR/YYZ. There is rest of India.

Sigh. Again "No need to value time at all". Unbelievable.

As a matter of fact the $500 pax are the ones targeted to your precious BOM and DEL and the O/D from their avail them. Not us. :roll:


That post was specifically referred to BOM/ DEL pax whose time will be wasted if a destination which could've been connected non stop to that city is now accessible through one stop flights. However people here were justifying those one stop time consuming routes as best because of low fares. I wasn't referring to any other city pax there.

aarbee wrote:
unrave wrote:
binayak wrote:

Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 . Who cares whether it's good for India in the long run or is it a missed opportunity ! After all the success of Indian aviation is pax are getting $500 India US fares . No need to value time at all.


The ones in favour of "convenient non-stop time saving" travel should have been willing to pay more so that the airline could have survived on revenues and not on taxpayer funded bank loans.

Exactly. The only ones using the $500 fares, I know are the ones who go to the precious BOM/DEL and not choose their hometown airline to save.


Not many people from BOM get attracted to $500 fares. There are lots of pax willing to pay a premium for non stop.
Period.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 17, 2019 2:19 am

binayak wrote:
Not many people from BOM get attracted to $500 fares. There are lots of pax willing to pay a premium for non stop.
Period.


Yet, clearly not enough to support a carrier doing just that.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
flysmiless
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:07 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown- facts

Fri May 17, 2019 8:12 am

Most low cost carriers try to gain competitive advantage by emphasizing cost reduction and control to compete with legacy carriers.


https://youtu.be/snxl3S8jPrA
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 2:05 am

See the link below for the announced allocation of Jet's international routes.

To summarize:

1. SpicJet and Indigo benefited most of Jet's bilateral flying rights

2. Air India has already been awarded additional seats to Dubai, Doha and London from Jet’s quota.

3. IndiGo has "fresh" rights (i.e., not part of Jet's quota) to operate Beijing, Shanghai and Kunming from Delhi and Kolkata.

4. From Jet’s quota, Indigo got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai and will increase daily frequency from Kolkata. It will also operate 8-10 flights per week to Hong Kong from Delhi.

5. SpiceJet got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai apart from increasing frequency from Kolkata. It also got seats to Hong Kong.

6. Vistara got seats to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... s/1581791/
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 2:16 am

In further news per the link below (for which I have provided a summary below):

1. POLICY: The government will award higher seat quota on foreign routes to the carriers launching flights on unserved sectors or those witnessing spike in air fares as opposed to Indigo's suggestion that slots should be awarded in proportion to the fleet size of rival carriers

2. IndiGo has asked for 8,000 more seats on India-Dubai sector besides requesting for additional frequency to Dhaka.

3. AIR INDIA: The Government awarded 5,700 weekly seats to Air India on the India-Dubai route, 5,000 seats on India-Qatar route and 4,600 additional seats to London.

https://www.indiatvnews.com/business/ne ... kok-520770
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 2:56 am

Here's what we know about ex-jet's B737 planes:

1) Vistara to get 10 planes (6 in May and 4 in June)

2) SpiceJet to get 28 planes (it is not clear whether the 16 planes it has already received are part of the 28 count)
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 3:17 am

edealinfo wrote:
See the link below for the announced allocation of Jet's international routes.

To summarize:

1. SpicJet and Indigo benefited most of Jet's bilateral flying rights

2. Air India has already been awarded additional seats to Dubai, Doha and London from Jet’s quota.

3. IndiGo has "fresh" rights (i.e., not part of Jet's quota) to operate Beijing, Shanghai and Kunming from Delhi and Kolkata.

4. From Jet’s quota, Indigo got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai and will increase daily frequency from Kolkata. It will also operate 8-10 flights per week to Hong Kong from Delhi.

5. SpiceJet got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai apart from increasing frequency from Kolkata. It also got seats to Hong Kong.

6. Vistara got seats to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... s/1581791/


I hope a full service airline gets BOM-HKG/SIN/DXB. Especially BOM-HKG. A narrow body on such a long business route would not be fun (when you are on your company’s dime). This is a huge win for CX, EK, SQ. Basically it is like India-ME where Indian carriers focus on lower end VFR, workers, tourists, shoppers and the foreign carriers focus on business pax and connecting pax to US, OZ, Africa etc.

Are these temporary or permanent allocations? If pertinent, the GOI might as well kill the Jet sale already. And Vistara take those Jet 77W already
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 3:21 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
See the link below for the announced allocation of Jet's international routes.

To summarize:

1. SpicJet and Indigo benefited most of Jet's bilateral flying rights

2. Air India has already been awarded additional seats to Dubai, Doha and London from Jet’s quota.

3. IndiGo has "fresh" rights (i.e., not part of Jet's quota) to operate Beijing, Shanghai and Kunming from Delhi and Kolkata.

4. From Jet’s quota, Indigo got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai and will increase daily frequency from Kolkata. It will also operate 8-10 flights per week to Hong Kong from Delhi.

5. SpiceJet got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai apart from increasing frequency from Kolkata. It also got seats to Hong Kong.

6. Vistara got seats to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... s/1581791/


I hope a full service airline gets BOM-HKG/SIN/DXB. Especially BOM-HKG. A narrow body on such a long business route would not be fun (when you are on your company’s dime). This is a huge win for CX, EK, SQ. Basically it is like India-ME where Indian carriers focus on lower end VFR, workers, tourists, shoppers and the foreign carriers focus on business pax and connecting pax to US, OZ, Africa etc.

Are these temporary or permanent allocations? If pertinent, the GOI might as well kill the Jet sale already. And Vistara take those Jet 77W already


CX flies this route twice a day on a 77W.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 3:35 am

Jet had 13,000 seats to Dubai.
5,700 went to AI.
Where are the other 7,000 going?

I notice not match clamoring for right to AUH (Abu Dhabi) EY's hub.

I find it interesting Jet flew more to Dubai than to their partner.

This route allocation shows the bids aren't being taken up.

How much new service has AI started?

To others, I would appreciate a summary of expansion since Jet's shutdown by all Indian Cartier's.

I'm always curious how my predictions go. I predicted India would have elevated fares for 15 to 24 months before a return to a price war.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
avier
Posts: 894
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 9:03 am

lightsaber wrote:

I'm always curious how my predictions go. I predicted India would have elevated fares for 15 to 24 months before a return to a price war.


I would estimate ~12 months or even less for that at the rate at which airlines, especially market leader, are inducting aircrafts.
 
TheEuphorian
Posts: 338
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 9:16 am

what's the latest news going on with their 77W?
 
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SQ789
Posts: 630
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 9:26 am

TheEuphorian wrote:
what's the latest news going on with their 77W?

Almost all are now returned back to lessors.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
sibibom
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 11:08 am

SQ789 wrote:
TheEuphorian wrote:
what's the latest news going on with their 77W?

Almost all are now returned back to lessors.



weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?
 
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SQ789
Posts: 630
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 12:00 pm

sibibom wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
TheEuphorian wrote:
what's the latest news going on with their 77W?

Almost all are now returned back to lessors.



weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?

Some are owned, Some other are leased.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 1:34 pm

How convenient -- SBI expects "clarity" on Jet's status in 1 week after the elections get over.

The article in the link below also talks about interest from a "Mumbai-based business group". I wonder if that is Reliance, or an unknown group. reliance was rumored to be interested in merging Jet and Air India and running a "national" airline. To me, that was all speculation by reporters. Who knows. That could be a wild card.

https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ar-2039525
 
binayak
Posts: 967
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 1:42 pm

edealinfo wrote:
How convenient -- SBI expects "clarity" on Jet's status in 1 week after the elections get over.

The article in the link below also talks about interest from a "Mumbai-based business group". I wonder if that is Reliance, or an unknown group. reliance was rumored to be interested in merging Jet and Air India and running a "national" airline. To me, that was all speculation by reporters. Who knows. That could be a wild card.

https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ar-2039525


Darwin group is the " Mumbai based business group "
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 1:45 pm

edealinfo wrote:
How convenient -- SBI expects "clarity" on Jet's status in 1 week after the elections get over.

The article in the link below also talks about interest from a "Mumbai-based business group". I wonder if that is Reliance, or an unknown group. reliance was rumored to be interested in merging Jet and Air India and running a "national" airline. To me, that was all speculation by reporters. Who knows. That could be a wild card.

https://www.ndtv.com/business/jet-airwa ... ar-2039525


Isnt the owner or CEO of Reliance the richest person in India? Why would they want to throw good money into a pit for no return?

AI at least has some assets like their LHR slots etc. 9W has nothing left.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 1:52 pm

binayak wrote:

Darwin group is the " Mumbai based business group "


Isn't that the group that reported Rs 35,000 in net profit on sales of Rs 18 lakh? Heck, their annual net profit at less than $500 wouldn't even cover the cost of a single international ticket. It is not ironical that the group name is "Darwin"......... maybe they survived this long for their ability to get free publicity in the Indian media. Even Jason Unsworth would be proud!
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat May 18, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 1:55 pm

Antarius wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
a) Isnt the owner or CEO of Reliance the richest person in India?
b) Why would they want to throw good money into a pit for no return?



A. Yes.

B. For political purposes only. Sometimes you throw stuff in the name of "national interests" and the payback in terms of favorable government policies in your other business is many times over. [But for now, the Reliance play at a Jet/Air India merger is purely speculative]
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 2:58 pm

avier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

I'm always curious how my predictions go. I predicted India would have elevated fares for 15 to 24 months before a return to a price war.


I would estimate ~12 months or even less for that at the rate at which airlines, especially market leader, are inducting aircrafts.

What growth rate did you assume for Indian aviation? When significant time scales are involved, growth helps elevate fares. I agree capacity will be replaced within 12 months, but then to go back to oversupply, one must also make up for the market growth.

In what should be the #1 growing aviation market in 2019-2025, I believe it will take more time. I assume 15% to 20% annual growth, bunched up in the busy season.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
avier
Posts: 894
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 3:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
What growth rate did you assume for Indian aviation? When significant time scales are involved, growth helps elevate fares. I agree capacity will be replaced within 12 months, but then to go back to oversupply, one must also make up for the market growth.

In what should be the #1 growing aviation market in 2019-2025, I believe it will take more time. I assume 15% to 20% annual growth, bunched up in the busy season.


India's largest airline with close to 50% domestic market share, IndiGo, is growing at 35% (or even more now with Jet shutdown). Add to that other airlines are all rapidly expanding too- with SpiceJet inducting almost 30% of the Jet fleet within months. India's air traffic growth is about ~10%. Now do the math there.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 3:18 pm

avier wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
What growth rate did you assume for Indian aviation? When significant time scales are involved, growth helps elevate fares. I agree capacity will be replaced within 12 months, but then to go back to oversupply, one must also make up for the market growth.

In what should be the #1 growing aviation market in 2019-2025, I believe it will take more time. I assume 15% to 20% annual growth, bunched up in the busy season.


India's largest airline with close to 50% domestic market share, IndiGo, is growing at 35% (or even more now with Jet shutdown). Add to that other airlines are all rapidly expanding too- with SpiceJet inducting almost 30% of the Jet fleet within months. India's air traffic growth is about ~10%. Now do the math there.


Indigo's market share is 47%. When will India's so called Competition Authority step in and clip their wings?
 
avier
Posts: 894
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 3:53 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Indigo's market share is 47%. When will India's so called Competition Authority step in and clip their wings?


What can the so-called Competition Authority,(if they even carry out real legit duties) tell 6E? Stop growing? At the most slots can be capped at major airports for them to prevent them owning the airports. I believe some regulations are already being formulated regarding that. Or else 6E would end up with 85% slots at BLR and call it their own home.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7075
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 4:01 pm

SQ789 wrote:
sibibom wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Almost all are now returned back to lessors.



weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?

Some are owned, Some other are leased.


Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITED
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 4:02 pm

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Indigo's market share is 47%. When will India's so called Competition Authority step in and clip their wings?


What can the so-called Competition Authority,(if they even carry out real legit duties) tell 6E? Stop growing? At the most slots can be capped at major airports for them to prevent them owning the airports. I believe some regulations are already being formulated regarding that. Or else 6E would end up with 85% slots at BLR and call it their own home.


Maybe the so called Competition Authority can place a cap on domestic market share which would force Indigo to deploy new capacity on international routes. If Indigo is smart, it would do that anyway, to prevent it crossing over 50 percent share domestically that would bring unwanted attention on competition and make them a huge target of detractors. Imagine if their employee beats a passenger and they have over a 50 percent marketshare...you can bet the heavens would fall for them
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 4:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
sibibom wrote:


weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?

Some are owned, Some other are leased.


Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITED
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED



So, are you saying that on default, the 77Ws are repossessed by Naresh Goyal’s shell companies... which acquired them at low depreciated book value and can then sell it at a profit. So essentially, “chacha” Goyal comes out ahead.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 5:26 pm

There are Jet's slots that matter and those that don't. For instance, BOM is a hot item while at Raipur, they are a dime a dozen. So, at which Indian airports do Jet's slots actually matter for grabbing them [Top 10], in order of importance? I tried to compile a list but let me know if I am wrong or you think it could be better reordered.

1. Mumbai (the hottest)
2. Pune (very few slots available for distribution to begin with)
3. New Delhi (until the new airport is operationalized in 5 years, New Delhi will be in to demand)
4. Calcutta (no new airport so the existing airport slots will be in demand)
5. Madras (no new airport so the existing airport slots will be in demand)
6. Goa (like Pune there are few slots to go around; it is lower on the list largely because it is leisure demand as opposed to business demand)
7. Bangalore (lower in the list because with the second runway being operationalized this year there will be plenty of slots)
8. ?
9. ?
10. ?
 
sibibom
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 5:26 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
sibibom wrote:


weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?

Some are owned, Some other are leased.


Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITE
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED


Here is the scam in this saga, they will all trace back thru multiple shell companies and tax havens to dear old Naresh Goyal
 
Antarius
Posts: 1640
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 5:43 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Indigo's market share is 47%. When will India's so called Competition Authority step in and clip their wings?


What can the so-called Competition Authority,(if they even carry out real legit duties) tell 6E? Stop growing? At the most slots can be capped at major airports for them to prevent them owning the airports. I believe some regulations are already being formulated regarding that. Or else 6E would end up with 85% slots at BLR and call it their own home.


Maybe the so called Competition Authority can place a cap on domestic market share which would force Indigo to deploy new capacity on international routes. If Indigo is smart, it would do that anyway, to prevent it crossing over 50 percent share domestically that would bring unwanted attention on competition and make them a huge target of detractors. Imagine if their employee beats a passenger and they have over a 50 percent marketshare...you can bet the heavens would fall for them


The aviation industry is so fragile, that doing this would simply curb growth at the detriment to passengers.

The government should lower taxes and relax rules to allow new market entrants. That's how they can help foster competition. As we see with AI, the government has no idea what they are doing when it comes to competitive airlines - best they stay out.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
sabby
Posts: 328
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 6:34 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
But EK's overall seats need to be capped. They should reallocate flights. Also EK should have partnered with an Indian carrier a long time ago. This Indian partner would have helped add cities. But oh wait EK didn't..


Instead of overall seat capping, EK and other transit carriers should be capped in the top 4-5 cities and should have generous access to smaller cities (which is what Australia and few other countries do). This will help in better connectivity in the smaller cities and it will reduce burden from the biggest airports so more non-stops can be opened instead of multiple daily hub to hub routes.

Adding an Indian partner would do little for EK, people may take 1 stop vs non-stop to save a few bucks but 2 stops become very less attractive. It also means the traffic to such smaller airports are not significant enough to warrant a direct route from DXB.

Also, instead of blaming the ME3 for taking away passengers, there's one thing other carriers could do to win passengers to Europe and US. Schedule non-stop flights in the late morning from India instead of 1-4AM.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1608
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 6:50 pm

I believe India already has an agreement in place with several south East Asian countries (eg Singapore) for unlimited access to non metro airports (I..e seat caps do not apply except for 6 cities - BOM, DEL, CCU, MAD, BLR, HYD)
 
na
Posts: 9693
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 7:12 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
sibibom wrote:


weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?

Some are owned, Some other are leased.


Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITED
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED


https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
Ine 77W is now Austrian registered.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 8:23 pm

Ok, just checking in. Jet is still dead with the banks pretending it's not. Guess I'll check back in another week.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 574
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 8:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
sibibom wrote:


weren't most of the widebodies owned by Jet?

Some are owned, Some other are leased.


Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITED
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED


The name alone is not a valid identifier either way.
Could be shell companies, hiding real owner under "veil". Could be specialized vehicles, used by legitimate asset management business, in order to streamline administration and cover for various eventualities. There are companies that own a single airframe, for example. In case of a portfolio reshuffle, it is often much more convenient to transfer the title of the company that owns the asset, rather than sell an asset, and then work out with accountants and taxmen, whether you are now liable for additional taxes and whatnot.
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