smartplane
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 9:06 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITED
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED


The name alone is not a valid identifier either way.
Could be shell companies, hiding real owner under "veil". Could be specialized vehicles, used by legitimate asset management business, in order to streamline administration and cover for various eventualities. There are companies that own a single airframe, for example. In case of a portfolio reshuffle, it is often much more convenient to transfer the title of the company that owns the asset, rather than sell an asset, and then work out with accountants and taxmen, whether you are now liable for additional taxes and whatnot.

Even major leasing companies often create separate companies for individual aircraft. Three reasons - can sell individual leases or bundle to investors, two, quarantines from financial / tax challenge / protects investors especially if terminated early, and more flexibility at EOL.

Perhaps three with Bishopsgate / Moorgate / Irish connection? Two with Chinese?
 
behramjee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 18, 2019 10:47 pm

edealinfo wrote:
See the link below for the announced allocation of Jet's international routes.

To summarize:

1. SpicJet and Indigo benefited most of Jet's bilateral flying rights

2. Air India has already been awarded additional seats to Dubai, Doha and London from Jet’s quota.

3. IndiGo has "fresh" rights (i.e., not part of Jet's quota) to operate Beijing, Shanghai and Kunming from Delhi and Kolkata.

4. From Jet’s quota, Indigo got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai and will increase daily frequency from Kolkata. It will also operate 8-10 flights per week to Hong Kong from Delhi.

5. SpiceJet got new flights to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai apart from increasing frequency from Kolkata. It also got seats to Hong Kong.

6. Vistara got seats to Dhaka from Delhi and Mumbai.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... s/1581791/


You are right as now on sabre, Air India has opened for sale its new DXB bound services:

BOM-DXB new double daily nonstop using a B788 + A321 each respectively

101JUNBOMDXB¤AI
01JUN SAT BOM/Z¥5.5 DXB/-1.5
AI RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **
7AI 983 C4 D4 J4 Z3 Y9 B9 M9*BOMDXB 800P 955P 321 0 /E
H9 K9 Q9 V9 W9 G9 L9
8AI 911 C4 D4 J4 Z4 Y9 B9 M9*BOMDXB 1135P 130A¥1 788 0 /E
H9 K9 Q9 V9 W9 G9 L9

DEL-DXB increased from 2 to 3 daily i.e. daily A321 via COK + double daily B788

08JUN SAT DEL/Z¥5.5 DXB/-1.5
AI RESPONSE ** DIRECT CONNECT PARTICIPANT **
7AI 933 C4 D4 J4 Z1 Y8 B8 M8 H8*DELDXB 510A 1210P 321 1 /E
K8 Q0 V0 W0 G0 L0
8AI 915 C4 D4 J4 Z3 Y9 B9 M9 H9*DELDXB 450P 730P 788 0 /E
K9 Q9 V9 W9 G0 L9
9AI 995 C4 D4 J2 Z1 Y9 B9 M9 H9*DELDXB 735P 1045P 788 0 /E
K0 Q0 V0 W0 G0 L0
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 19, 2019 7:29 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

Are you saying these are valid lessors? Never heard of them.

MOORGATE AIRCRAFT 2007 LIMITED
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-A LTD
FLEET IRELAND AIRCRAFT LEASE 2007-B LIMITED
JIHB LIMITED
JIHBTWO LIMITED
BISHOPSGATE AIRCRAFT 2008 LIMITED


Ameerpet Advanced Masters in Computer Science course should include a chapter on SPV
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 12:33 am

Looks like one last meeting for investors.
https://wap.business-standard.com/artic ... 035_1.html

I don't understand the debate on leasors, there are numerous small leasing companies. When returns are good and few aircraft repossessed, they crop up. An event like Jet often does them in.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:42 am

lightsaber wrote:
Looks like one last meeting for investors.
https://wap.business-standard.com/artic ... 035_1.html
....

Lightsaber


A question -- is there enough slack within Etihad (parked frames, underutilized frames, all that) to reallocate aircraft to an Indian subsidiary/partner ("Jet 2.0"), if all existing fleet of Jet Airways is taken away?

I was under impression Etihad has too many birds for the flying it currently does. If that is true, and Etihad is interested in having an Indian feeder airline lined up, maybe they could be interested in rescuing the corporate shell of old Jet Airways, provided most creditors just bugger off, or accept a very major (like 99% major) haircut?

Still, a very theoretical exercise. Most creditors, vendors especially, have no interest in buggering off. And there is no legal mechanism to clear that debt, no Chapter 11 or whatever equivalent could there be.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 am

Phosphorus wrote:
...
Most creditors, vendors especially, have no interest in buggering off. And there is no legal mechanism to clear that debt, no Chapter 11 or whatever equivalent could there be.


Are there any estimates on how much is vendor debt?
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 10:47 am

Phosphorus wrote:
...
Most creditors, vendors especially, have no interest in buggering off. And there is no legal mechanism to clear that debt, no Chapter 11 or whatever equivalent could there be.


Two options for them : Large haircut or bankruptcy proceedings - which they recover almost peanuts with lot of legal hurdles and a time consuming process. Lenders dislike the latter option hence dragging and seeing if any other options work out.
If they hoping or rather dreaming they'll recover everything, either through sale or insolvency proceedings, they must smoking something.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 11:46 am

Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital. Ofcourse these additions are not directed towards Surat/Vadodara travelers as they seem to always believe.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 11:58 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

Are there any estimates on how much is vendor debt?

Anywhere between Rs 7k to Rs 12k crore
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 12:07 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Are there any estimates on how much is vendor debt?

Anywhere between Rs 7k to Rs 12k crore
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 1:05 pm

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Are there any estimates on how much is vendor debt?

Anywhere between Rs 7k to Rs 12k crore


Thanks! That's more than 1 billion USD, anyway. Even if banks accept 99% writeoffs, and even if suddenly lessors will stop claiming back debt, this is a lot of money, for an AOC, traffic rights and slots that are about to expire...
And the vendors, mostly, are yet to be even negotiated with...
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VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 2:15 pm

avier wrote:
Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital.


binayak wrote:
They'll never learn ..... .


Since you ask, I do have a life outside of ANet so I don't wait with the browser open 24/7 to comment / respond / apologize for past comments. And I am completely lost as to why you two are taking this BOM-capacity thing so personally. I thought "Jaajwalya Abhimaan" was a Pune thing no?
I have literally been saying the lost capacity will eventually be corrected and will be a PITA only in the short term (which is actually changing faster than I was assuming) but a desire to take a jibe at "small townies" is so strong that the point was completely lost on you. I am actually very pleased that VS is returning to BOM. Good for them & BOM both.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:01 pm

VTORD wrote:
I have literally been saying the lost capacity will eventually be corrected and will be a PITA only in the short term (which is actually changing faster than I was assuming) but a desire to take a jibe at "small townies" is so strong that the point was completely lost on you. I am actually very pleased that VS is returning to BOM. Good for them & BOM both.


Well that was directed at certain users on here who claimed that BOM can't support much long hauls hence Jets demise! Thats how far they went to support that claim! And that most BOM still prefer ME3 and such over non stop long hauls. But the reverse happened with many such additions recently, hence that point made. No offence to be taken sir/madam.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:15 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
...
Thanks! That's more than 1 billion USD, anyway. Even if banks accept 99% writeoffs, and even if suddenly lessors will stop claiming back debt, this is a lot of money, for an AOC, traffic rights and slots that are about to expire...
And the vendors, mostly, are yet to be even negotiated with...


That can't be a valid number for just vendor dues. No unsecured vendor will extend that much credit lines to an airline with so much debt and liabilities.

Just to clear "vendor" means airports, oil companies, GHAs, caterers. Doesn't include banks or lessors.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:02 pm

I think it is great that DL & Co are adding flights again to India. I guess Jet proved the traffic is there and that they would fly a non ME3 carrier. What I still feel is sad is that the slack in international capacity is being met by foreign airlines. India misses out once again. A home airline tries to serve the needs of the local market. I will miss Jet’s 3 flights to LHR from BOM because they offered timing choice which is so lacking from India. KL is up to 5 flights per week. I expect that to go daily once KL gets more planes.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:51 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Just to clear "vendor" means airports, oil companies, GHAs, caterers. Doesn't include banks or lessors.


Correct. Vendors might include MRO's, who hold on to assets (parts, engines, other items that were being fixed). Vendors might include airports, who hold onto whatever assets they might have seized -- office chattels and whatnot.

Oil companies, GHA's and caterers probably have no assets to lay their hands on -- but they surely can deny business to the deadbeat creditor, should it try to restart -- until everything is settled.

That's already not less than 1 billion USD of debt.

Obviously, lessors dues are not "vendors debt". And that debt will surely not go away -- after frames are repoed, lessors want only return of their dues; what to negotiate about? How much writeoff would a lessor accept, vs. immediate cash settlement? Legal challenges are possible, too.

And banks want to be paid something.

That's more debt.

Large financial hole, few tangible assets, and intangibles that are soon to expire (AOC, slots, traffic rights). What a charming business prospect to invest in.
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aarbee
Posts: 384
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:14 pm

avier wrote:
Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital. Ofcourse these additions are not directed towards Surat/Vadodara travelers as they seem to always believe.

I'm from smaller city. I never indicated there is a "too little" demand for BOM. If there is demand and profitability only then airlines will run the route.

My arguments are against posters who for their BOM related convenience, argue that all travel for India should go through BOM/DEL only and blame ME3, government, small townees, etc for denying them that convenience.

I gravitate towards what better for me :
  • 1 stop
  • minimal time
  • excellent service
  • nice entertainment
  • having a pleasant break in DXB, DOH, AUH (no it's not all malls) as opposed to hassle at BOM in dead of night
  • being treated as a guest as opposed to just an economy passenger
and yes contrary to popular opinion to it's not CHEAP, I actually pay a premium to fly ME3, Please don't try to berate my my choices for what not does not work for you,

That's where I think 9W failed to capture traffic by concentrating on BOM/DEL/LHR/NYC. Everybody does that. They failed to create a market in a country as big as India.

-R
Last edited by aarbee on Tue May 21, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 384
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:15 pm

binayak wrote:
avier wrote:
Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital. Ofcourse these additions are not directed towards Surat/Vadodara travelers as they seem to always believe.


They'll never learn .....


Long Live BOM. Smaller cities will continue playing ping pong. :D :bigthumbsup:
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 384
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:18 pm

VTORD wrote:
avier wrote:
Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital.


binayak wrote:
They'll never learn ..... .


Since you ask, I do have a life outside of ANet so I don't wait with the browser open 24/7 to comment / respond / apologize for past comments. And I am completely lost as to why you two are taking this BOM-capacity thing so personally. I thought "Jaajwalya Abhimaan" was a Pune thing no?


Bingo.
VTORD wrote:
I have literally been saying the lost capacity will eventually be corrected and will be a PITA only in the short term (which is actually changing faster than I was assuming) but a desire to take a jibe at "small townies" is so strong that the point was completely lost on you. I am actually very pleased that VS is returning to BOM. Good for them & BOM both.
Love the AIXes
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 994
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:31 pm

aarbee wrote:
avier wrote:
Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital. Ofcourse these additions are not directed towards Surat/Vadodara travelers as they seem to always believe.

I'm from smaller city. I never indicated there is a "too little" demand for BOM. If there is demand and profitability only then airlines will run the route.

My arguments are against posters who for their BOM related convenience, argue that all travel for India should go through BOM/DEL only and blame ME3, government, small townees, etc for not denying them that convenience.

I gravitate towards what better for me :
  • 1 stop
  • minimal time
  • excellent service
  • nice entertainment
  • having a pleasant break in DXB, DOH, AUH (no it's not all malls) as opposed to hassle at BOM in dead of night
  • being treated as a guest as opposed to just an economy passenger
and yes contrary to popular opinion to it's not CHEAP, I actually pay a premium to fly ME3, Please don't try to berate my my choices for what not does not work for you,

That's where I think 9W failed to capture traffic by concentrating on BOM/DEL/LHR/NYC. Everybody does that. They failed to create a market in a country as big as India.

-R


Other than jokes, I haven’t seen anyone post that all traffic should go through BOM. The same people that are pro BOM are also pro DEL and generally support hubs in India and Indian airlines. Just because people post attack’s doesn’t mean they are actually capturing what the poster thinks. Focusing on your post - I think Jet was very focused on serving all of india. Who do you think was flying all those international flights...a good chunk was connecting traffic from/to different Indian cities. Jet also started BLR-AMS and MAA-CDG. Jet’s AUH strategy is probably a bigger fail then their BOM hub strategy. On another note, the best thing AI has done in recent times is hub everything in DEL with limited P2P in other cities.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:48 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
avier wrote:
Where are the small townies who spoke of too little demand for long hauls from BOM. Back to back 9W's capacity is being restored at BOM, long haul too. Speaks of how lucrative the market remains out of the financial capital. Ofcourse these additions are not directed towards Surat/Vadodara travelers as they seem to always believe.

I'm from smaller city. I never indicated there is a "too little" demand for BOM. If there is demand and profitability only then airlines will run the route.

My arguments are against posters who for their BOM related convenience, argue that all travel for India should go through BOM/DEL only and blame ME3, government, small townees, etc for not denying them that convenience.

I gravitate towards what better for me :
  • 1 stop
  • minimal time
  • excellent service
  • nice entertainment
  • having a pleasant break in DXB, DOH, AUH (no it's not all malls) as opposed to hassle at BOM in dead of night
  • being treated as a guest as opposed to just an economy passenger
and yes contrary to popular opinion to it's not CHEAP, I actually pay a premium to fly ME3, Please don't try to berate my my choices for what not does not work for you,

That's where I think 9W failed to capture traffic by concentrating on BOM/DEL/LHR/NYC. Everybody does that. They failed to create a market in a country as big as India.

-R


Other than jokes, I haven’t seen anyone post that all traffic should go through BOM. The same people that are pro BOM are also pro DEL and generally support hubs in India and Indian airlines. Just because people post attack’s doesn’t mean they are actually capturing what the poster thinks. Focusing on your post - I think Jet was very focused on serving all of india. Who do you think was flying all those international flights...a good chunk was connecting traffic from/to different Indian cities. Jet also started BLR-AMS and MAA-CDG. Jet’s AUH strategy is probably a bigger fail then their BOM hub strategy. On another note, the best thing AI has done in recent times is hub everything in DEL with limited P2P in other cities.

BOM and DEL as hubs have only led to financial ruin of the carriers based there ergo they have proven to be unviable as hubs. Liberalise air traffic rights and let the international carriers chooses what airports they want to fly to instead of forcing everyone to fly thru the BOM/DEL dumps.
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:57 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Other than jokes, I haven’t seen anyone post that all traffic should go through BOM. The same people that are pro BOM are also pro DEL and generally support hubs in India and Indian airlines. Just because people post attack’s doesn’t mean they are actually capturing what the poster thinks. Focusing on your post - I think Jet was very focused on serving all of india. Who do you think was flying all those international flights...a good chunk was connecting traffic from/to different Indian cities. Jet also started BLR-AMS and MAA-CDG. Jet’s AUH strategy is probably a bigger fail then their BOM hub strategy. On another note, the best thing AI has done in recent times is hub everything in DEL with limited P2P in other cities.

BOM and DEL as hubs have only led to financial ruin of the carriers based there ergo they have proven to be unviable as hubs. Liberalise air traffic rights and let the international carriers chooses what airports they want to fly to instead of forcing everyone to fly thru the BOM/DEL dumps.


Line 1 : The most profitable Indian carrier also has bases at BOM/ DEL and its profitability has decreased since it started dumping capacity at tier 2 markets.

Line 2 : All airlines have access to a number of Indian cities. Just as a poster here earlier said that EK is free to cut 1 flight to BOM and add 1 to any other city within their BASA. However they won't.

When int'l carriers find BOM lucrative be it EU / US , Indian carriers failure isn't a justification for lack of potential as BOM/ DEL as hubs.
Best will be give the ME3 unlimited points of call but limited seats. But even then mark my words, they'll dump capacity at BOM/ DEL .
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:47 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
I'm from smaller city. I never indicated there is a "too little" demand for BOM. If there is demand and profitability only then airlines will run the route.

My arguments are against posters who for their BOM related convenience, argue that all travel for India should go through BOM/DEL only and blame ME3, government, small townees, etc for not denying them that convenience.

I gravitate towards what better for me :
  • 1 stop
  • minimal time
  • excellent service
  • nice entertainment
  • having a pleasant break in DXB, DOH, AUH (no it's not all malls) as opposed to hassle at BOM in dead of night
  • being treated as a guest as opposed to just an economy passenger
and yes contrary to popular opinion to it's not CHEAP, I actually pay a premium to fly ME3, Please don't try to berate my my choices for what not does not work for you,

That's where I think 9W failed to capture traffic by concentrating on BOM/DEL/LHR/NYC. Everybody does that. They failed to create a market in a country as big as India.

-R


Other than jokes, I haven’t seen anyone post that all traffic should go through BOM. The same people that are pro BOM are also pro DEL and generally support hubs in India and Indian airlines. Just because people post attack’s doesn’t mean they are actually capturing what the poster thinks. Focusing on your post - I think Jet was very focused on serving all of india. Who do you think was flying all those international flights...a good chunk was connecting traffic from/to different Indian cities. Jet also started BLR-AMS and MAA-CDG. Jet’s AUH strategy is probably a bigger fail then their BOM hub strategy. On another note, the best thing AI has done in recent times is hub everything in DEL with limited P2P in other cities.

BOM and DEL as hubs have only led to financial ruin of the carriers based there ergo they have proven to be unviable as hubs. Liberalise air traffic rights and let the international carriers chooses what airports they want to fly to instead of forcing everyone to fly thru the BOM/DEL dumps.

I would phrase much differently.

The 30% fuel taxes make DEL and BOM very expensive hubs. Due to costs and relative amenities, the profit potential is low. This has enabled the cost competitive airlines to have a far easier time establishing themselves.

There is a value to a large presence at BOM and DEL. The issue is costs have exceeded those values.

I wonder if the LCCs will base crew elsewhere to keep costs in line. For example, fly into BOM early with a crewed aircraft based elsewhere?

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 12:13 am

Air India will now use B 747 on domestic reports (from Delhi to Calcutta/Mumbai)

https://simpleflying.com/air-india-dome ... 7-flights/
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 12:22 am

Jet's lenders face a dilemma. Do they pony up 200 crore to EXIM bank to take control of 6 aircraft worth 2,000 crore with the possibility that those planes could be caught up in legal limo?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 420650.cms
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 1:31 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
KL is up to 5 flights per week. I expect that to go daily once KL gets more planes.

When did that happen? When is KL increasing the frequency?
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 3:22 am

binayak wrote:
When int'l carriers find BOM lucrative be it EU / US , Indian carriers failure isn't a justification for lack of potential as BOM/ DEL as hubs.
Best will be give the ME3 unlimited points of call but limited seats. But even then mark my words, they'll dump capacity at BOM/ DEL .

I agree. I remember reading a report that quoted Emirates saying that if they were given additional weekly seats to India, they'd up-gauge a second A380 to BOM and one A380 to DEL (possibly HYD too). As lightsaber says, there IS value to a large presence at BOM and DEL.
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 521
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 5:50 am

edealinfo wrote:
Jet's lenders face a dilemma. Do they pony up 200 crore to EXIM bank to take control of 6 aircraft worth 2,000 crore with the possibility that those planes could be caught up in legal limo?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 420650.cms


Civil law has a mechanism, called "cession", by which a creditor/lien holder can transfer his lien rights (and monetary claim) to a third party. In this situation, the original creditor is paid and walks away, while the party that settled with him now assumes the lien right.

In case of an asset, where competing claims might arise, this seems to be a good way to allow the original lien holder to be made whole, and not forced to repossess, while more interested parties now have both more flexibility, and also acquire the most senior lien.

This way, risking 30 mUSD to protect 300 mUSD in assets makes more sense.

If the banks first pay off the original debt, and then other creditors will show up, and staple their claims to these airplanes as the most senior ones -- then it probably makes no sense.
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dtw2hyd
Posts: 7071
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 12:07 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Civil law has a mechanism, called "cession", by which a creditor/lien holder can transfer his lien rights (and monetary claim) to a third party. In this situation, the original creditor is paid and walks away, while the party that settled with him now assumes the lien right.

In case of an asset, where competing claims might arise, this seems to be a good way to allow the original lien holder to be made whole, and not forced to repossess, while more interested parties now have both more flexibility, and also acquire the most senior lien.

This way, risking 30 mUSD to protect 300 mUSD in assets makes more sense.

If the banks first pay off the original debt, and then other creditors will show up, and staple their claims to these airplanes as the most senior ones -- then it probably makes no sense.


Both scenarios were debated up thread. Question is which one is applicable.

Or this is just for SBI file notes, 5 years later people may find that chacha's shell companies took these planes back and he made $270-$400 Million, just because SBI refused to pay $30 Million. There will be file notes proving that SBI put enough effort, so it will be in the clear. No one gets the blame. It appears two 77Ws are already up for sale.

I think US EXIM should clarify its interest, I don't like its name being used by Indian Media.
 
Bdutch
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 12:27 pm

Jet Airways has now been declared officially Bankrupt by Dutch Court.
According to Dutch Media (Very reliable source) the Dutch Court has ruled Jet Airways bankrupt.
The Dutch court was allowed to as Jet Airways officially had an office at AMS, having the Dutch Law applied.
According to this law the Bankruptcy is universal, however it depends on the Indian law if it will be applicable within India as well.


Article: (Only in Dutch)
https://www.nu.nl/economie/5903739/indiase-vliegtuigmaatschappij-jet-airways-failliet-verklaard-in-nederland.html
 
Yuanes
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 12:33 pm

Bdutch wrote:
Jet Airways has now been declared officially Bankrupt by Dutch Court.


Jet Airways shut down has reached 50 days. All those debts and now 50 days shut down. Worst business in the world and they think they will get investors.
Newswire: https://dangerousmother.com
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 1:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Civil law has a mechanism, called "cession", by which a creditor/lien holder can transfer his lien rights (and monetary claim) to a third party. In this situation, the original creditor is paid and walks away, while the party that settled with him now assumes the lien right.

In case of an asset, where competing claims might arise, this seems to be a good way to allow the original lien holder to be made whole, and not forced to repossess, while more interested parties now have both more flexibility, and also acquire the most senior lien.

This way, risking 30 mUSD to protect 300 mUSD in assets makes more sense.

If the banks first pay off the original debt, and then other creditors will show up, and staple their claims to these airplanes as the most senior ones -- then it probably makes no sense.


Both scenarios were debated up thread. Question is which one is applicable.

Or this is just for SBI file notes, 5 years later people may find that chacha's shell companies took these planes back and he made $270-$400 Million, just because SBI refused to pay $30 Million. There will be file notes proving that SBI put enough effort, so it will be in the clear. No one gets the blame. It appears two 77Ws are already up for sale.

I think US EXIM should clarify its interest, I don't like its name being used by Indian Media.


Why can’t USZ EXIM stay quiet and when the default period closes seize the aircraft and make 1800 crore profit? ( 200 owed to it minus the 2000 value of the planes?) the profit helps them offset losses in scenarios where there are defaults by other borrowers
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 1:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Civil law has a mechanism, called "cession", by which a creditor/lien holder can transfer his lien rights (and monetary claim) to a third party. In this situation, the original creditor is paid and walks away, while the party that settled with him now assumes the lien right.

In case of an asset, where competing claims might arise, this seems to be a good way to allow the original lien holder to be made whole, and not forced to repossess, while more interested parties now have both more flexibility, and also acquire the most senior lien.

This way, risking 30 mUSD to protect 300 mUSD in assets makes more sense.

If the banks first pay off the original debt, and then other creditors will show up, and staple their claims to these airplanes as the most senior ones -- then it probably makes no sense.


Both scenarios were debated up thread. Question is which one is applicable.

Or this is just for SBI file notes, 5 years later people may find that chacha's shell companies took these planes back and he made $270-$400 Million, just because SBI refused to pay $30 Million. There will be file notes proving that SBI put enough effort, so it will be in the clear. No one gets the blame. It appears two 77Ws are already up for sale.

I think US EXIM should clarify its interest, I don't like its name being used by Indian Media.

The EXIM is a passive financer. It will reposses if it must, but inertia is against that. It's interest is to recover guaranteed debt. There is no interest to clarify.

If it is made whole, it walks away. If not, it reposses. There is no debate or drama here. It is a very easy to understand known.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 1:11 pm

edealinfo wrote:
...
Why can’t USZ EXIM stay quiet and when the default period closes seize the aircraft and make 1800 crore profit? ( 200 owed to it minus the 2000 value of the planes?) the profit helps them offset losses in scenarios where there are defaults by other borrowers


I for one don't believe US EXIM is the lender. 12-year loans are not its core business, holding 12-year loans is a waste of its resources. 1-2 year bridge loan guarantees are its core business. I strongly suspect US EXIM name is used to deflect attention.

Also, US EXIM is not looking to make a quick buck by repoing assets already paid for 11 years 8 months on a 12-year loan. Why can't they repo one frame to cover $30 Million? I think for that matter any lender would work out a deal.

Delta spent years and $Millions fighting US-EXIM, sued Air India and EXIM on same issue, lobbied US Congress, published a list of US EXIM beneficiaries. I don't recall seeing Jet Airways anywhere. I could be wrong.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Wed May 22, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
moa999
Posts: 413
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 1:15 pm

Yuanes wrote:
Bdutch wrote:
Jet Airways has now been declared officially Bankrupt by Dutch Court.


Jet Airways shut down has reached 50 days. All those debts and now 50 days shut down. Worst business in the world and they think they will get investors.
Tend to agree it's dead.
Whatever liabilities were there have exploded in the last 50 days with no revenue

Best case is a NewCo comes in and picks up the AOC, owned planes, some leases on core facilities and some staff to restart as a much smaller operation, but leaves the rest behind
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 1:50 pm

moa999 wrote:
Best case is a NewCo comes in and picks up the AOC, owned planes, some leases on core facilities and some staff to restart as a much smaller operation, but leaves the rest behind

Agreed. There is no better scenario at this point.

They had better hurry, the rest of the Indian economy needs air transport.

Does anyone have a link on the impacts on hotel RevPar or other statistics of the Jet Shutdown?

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 2:45 pm

KLM will add 3x weekly flights between Amsterdam and Bengaluru from 28 October 2019:

KL879 AMS 1105-0050+1 BLR (Mon, Wed, Fri)
KL880 BLR 0245-0820 AMS (Tue, Thur, Sat)

Flights will operate on B787-9 with 30 Business Class, 45 Premium Economy and 219 Economy seats totalling 294 seats
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 3:54 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
...
Why can’t USZ EXIM stay quiet and when the default period closes seize the aircraft and make 1800 crore profit? ( 200 owed to it minus the 2000 value of the planes?) the profit helps them offset losses in scenarios where there are defaults by other borrowers


I for one don't believe US EXIM is the lender. 12-year loans are not its core business, holding 12-year loans is a waste of its resources. 1-2 year bridge loan guarantees are its core business. I strongly suspect US EXIM name is used to deflect attention.

Also, US EXIM is not looking to make a quick buck by repoing assets already paid for 11 years 8 months on a 12-year loan. Why can't they repo one frame to cover $30 Million? I think for that matter any lender would work out a deal.

Delta spent years and $Millions fighting US-EXIM, sued Air India and EXIM on same issue, lobbied US Congress, published a list of US EXIM beneficiaries. I don't recall seeing Jet Airways anywhere. I could be wrong.

If you reposses one frame, it pays that one frame's loan. This is the legality of collateralized assets. So legally, despite a surplus of funds, all must be foreclosed upon.

Bummer for Jet. SBI better sell these FAST!

But EXIM has it easy. They collect aircraft, sell, and then other lien holders can go to court for funds.

At this point, everyone will sue in the court that benefits them most. India delaying bankruptcy has opened a can of worms.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
Yuanes
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 4:11 pm

International giants like British Airways, Lufthansa etc.. will fly passengers on international routes with Boeing 747 and Airbus A380, A350. No need for Jet Airways
Newswire: https://dangerousmother.com
 
VTORD
Posts: 499
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 8:21 pm

avier wrote:
No offence to be taken sir/madam.

None taken and yes I am a guy! :D

What you need to understand is the time gap either on the way in or way out at BOM / DEL makes it an extremely unattractive option for non-BOM or non-drivable from BOM places. That does not constitute a denial of BOM's potential. That is what airlines need to understand as pointed out by @aarbee. Jet was an option it's no longer one but even when it was, it was inconvenient in numerous ways. You can reach travel times of 29+ hours easy.

eg., IC (Indian Airlines) used to have a 2 x daily flight BDQ-BOM. Then they withdrew ostensibly stating profitability in spite of little competition and a consistent ONGC / GSFC / IPCL traffic. Gradually 9W and 6E moved in AFTER that and it went up to as much as 3 x daily for 6E and 4 x Daily for 9W. But that happened over a period of 10-12 years. So for people like me AI was not even an option via BOM and 9W entailed enduring (no choice) long layovers in BOM. That is the point I am trying to make. Nothing against Amchi Mumbai..
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 9:58 pm

VTORD wrote:
avier wrote:
No offence to be taken sir/madam.

None taken and yes I am a guy! :D

What you need to understand is the time gap either on the way in or way out at BOM / DEL makes it an extremely unattractive option for non-BOM or non-drivable from BOM places. That does not constitute a denial of BOM's potential. That is what airlines need to understand as pointed out by @aarbee. Jet was an option it's no longer one but even when it was, it was inconvenient in numerous ways. You can reach travel times of 29+ hours easy.

eg., IC (Indian Airlines) used to have a 2 x daily flight BDQ-BOM. Then they withdrew ostensibly stating profitability in spite of little competition and a consistent ONGC / GSFC / IPCL traffic. Gradually 9W and 6E moved in AFTER that and it went up to as much as 3 x daily for 6E and 4 x Daily for 9W. But that happened over a period of 10-12 years. So for people like me AI was not even an option via BOM and 9W entailed enduring (no choice) long layovers in BOM. That is the point I am trying to make. Nothing against Amchi Mumbai..


And I dont think anyone disagrees with you on poorly timed connections. Those clearly don't work. But you seem to be making a sweeping statement that all connections to all cities did’t work. That is just not the case. For flights to say LHR, DXB which had daytime flights, the connections were much better. Also for cities that were served from Jet’s 3am bank, the connections worked as well. Jet did carry a fair amount of connecting pax. Worked for some and not for others. Just like AI in DEL.Many of us on this forum would never connect to an AI flight but yet people do.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 10:01 pm

moa999 wrote:
Yuanes wrote:
Bdutch wrote:
Jet Airways has now been declared officially Bankrupt by Dutch Court.


Jet Airways shut down has reached 50 days. All those debts and now 50 days shut down. Worst business in the world and they think they will get investors.
Tend to agree it's dead.
Whatever liabilities were there have exploded in the last 50 days with no revenue

Best case is a NewCo comes in and picks up the AOC, owned planes, some leases on core facilities and some staff to restart as a much smaller operation, but leaves the rest behind


I’ve been saying this for quite some time but posters made it seem not possible under Indian law. To be honest, I don't understand what the banks are even doing. They should have tried to liquidate things a long time ago. Anyone know if the EY/Hinduja rumors are true (and is anything coming out of it)?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 22, 2019 11:12 pm

Banks will hold 20 percent in Jet 2.0; Hindujas 30 percent and Etihad 24percent

Approx 6,000 crore required to reboot Jet of which 1,700 crore would come from Etihad

Total Jet debt is 15,000 crore of which 8,500 is bank debt
Etihad has asked for 80 percent write off


https://www.google.com/amp/s/wap.busine ... 036_1.html
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 1:21 am

edealinfo wrote:
Banks will hold 20 percent in Jet 2.0; Hindujas 30 percent and Etihad 24percent

Approx 6,000 crore required to reboot Jet of which 1,700 crore would come from Etihad

Total Jet debt is 15,000 crore of which 8,500 is bank debt
Etihad has asked for 80 percent write off


https://www.google.com/amp/s/wap.busine ... 036_1.html


A "Make in India" Solution:

1. Banks have to forgive 80% of jet's debt

2. Banks then have to fork out Re 1475 crore to get a 20% stake

3. After #2, they have to lend even more than what they have invested to have Jet fly again.

Naresh Goyal is a lucky man (he didn't even have to lift a finger....the Indian solution just rolled the dice his way)
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 994
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 2:22 am

edealinfo wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Banks will hold 20 percent in Jet 2.0; Hindujas 30 percent and Etihad 24percent

Approx 6,000 crore required to reboot Jet of which 1,700 crore would come from Etihad

Total Jet debt is 15,000 crore of which 8,500 is bank debt
Etihad has asked for 80 percent write off


https://www.google.com/amp/s/wap.busine ... 036_1.html


A "Make in India" Solution:

1. Banks have to forgive 80% of jet's debt

2. Banks then have to fork out Re 1475 crore to get a 20% stake

3. After #2, they have to lend even more than what they have invested to have Jet fly again.

Naresh Goyal is a lucky man (he didn't even have to lift a finger....the Indian solution just rolled the dice his way)


Huh I thought Naresh is out. I dont think this deal helps him. Also I thought the banks get the 20% in return for forgiving the debt so it is debt converted to equity (I think). Looks to me that this is really the EY solution. The Hindujas are just a front Indian partner. On the surface, I think the plan is reasonable. It is all the vendor debt that confuses me. If this was new Jet after a US style bankruptcy, it would be great. There are just too many questions. Also will the GOI go for this. I thought Spice was driving the Jet must die and we must benefit march. This is almost better than the Game of Thrones finale.
 
sibibom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 2:25 am

This is for real? I hope they can get it up and running ASAP, suddenly SpiceJet is the one who will be in a world of trouble.......
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 2:55 am

sibibom wrote:
This is for real? I hope they can get it up and running ASAP, suddenly SpiceJet is the one who will be in a world of trouble.......


Could also be why the Hindujas were chosen. I wonder if their govt connections are BJP or Congress. If BJP, then this plan seems more likely IMHO
 
bhxalex
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 12:35 pm

Yuanes wrote:
International giants like British Airways, Lufthansa etc.. will fly passengers on international routes with Boeing 747 and Airbus A380, A350. No need for Jet Airways



Ever heard of bilateral agreements?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 5:16 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
sibibom wrote:
This is for real? I hope they can get it up and running ASAP, suddenly SpiceJet is the one who will be in a world of trouble.......


Could also be why the Hindujas were chosen. I wonder if their govt connections are BJP or Congress. If BJP, then this plan seems more likely IMHO

If real, Jet could be running soon.

But as to SpiceJet in a world of trouble? Why? Yes, yields will drop faster. But the aircraft and pilots are already under contract. Perhaps a few pilots will defect back, but that is why airlines have them sign a bond.

The major impact is that India will quickly go from pilot surplus back to pilot shortage. Cest la vie.

I wonder where the new Jet will get narrowbody aircraft.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
ssreekanth2000
Posts: 29
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 23, 2019 5:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
sibibom wrote:
This is for real? I hope they can get it up and running ASAP, suddenly SpiceJet is the one who will be in a world of trouble.......


Could also be why the Hindujas were chosen. I wonder if their govt connections are BJP or Congress. If BJP, then this plan seems more likely IMHO

If real, Jet could be running soon.

But as to SpiceJet in a world of trouble? Why? Yes, yields will drop faster. But the aircraft and pilots are already under contract. Perhaps a few pilots will defect back, but that is why airlines have them sign a bond.

The major impact is that India will quickly go from pilot surplus back to pilot shortage. Cest la vie.

I wonder where the new Jet will get narrowbody aircraft.

Lightsaber



Probably take delivery of their pending MAXs if they are back in the air by then?

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