Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:56 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
1. I like your bold predictions. If even 50% are right, you will be KIng.

2. Unfortunately, the Government may be defining "success" as selling Air India, not its dissolution. If no one buys it, I suspect it will still be a tire around the Government's neck that politically it will not be able to get rid off. My suggestion is for the Govt., to sell Air India in individual pieces.....Air India Major, Alliance Air, Air India Express, Air India Engineering, AI-SATS, etc.....this way at least some individual pieces will be sold and they can at least SHRINK Air India.


I will be happy if I am 100% wrong.

The definition of success changed after 9W. 9W going down without losing one vote is a great success. There are no elections for the next five years, killing AI quickly is a timely thing to do. The silver lining, 6E can breathe easy.

As I said, no foreign investor or foreign airline manager will set foot in India. No one wants to get involved in never-ending investigations and lookout notices. There are other business-friendly countries in the world.


I guess UK and Air Asia don't exist? Or did India recently annex Singapore? You were wrong on 9W, now you make up nonsense to try to defend that by making up far fetched claims. There are already foreign investors and airline managers in India. To my knowledge, Wolfgang Prock-Schauer isn't an Indian name.

The basic lack of fact checking is detrimental to this thread. Stop digging more holes and walk away with at least a little dignity.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
No one wants to get involved in never-ending investigations and lookout notices.


Especially, an investigation that involves sources of funding 25 years earlier. Why did the Government wait for 25 years, until Jet stopped all flight operations, to suddenly decide that maybe it's about time to question why Jet was allowed to fly in the first place, 25 years earlier?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:39 pm

binayak wrote:
VTORD wrote:
binayak wrote:

I think AI can try out flights from Delhi to DPS and BNE with their 788s . Both have come up as underserved routes in the past and might work in AI's configuration.

Wouldn't BOM - SYD come before DEL - BNE?


By QF, maybe .
By AI, hardly any chance.

What about JetStar?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:46 pm

Assuming that there are no bidders for Jet by June 10, the Government/banks deadline to determine the final status of Jet, what happens to Jet's 777W aircraft. Will creditors have a right to "attach the property" and then dispose it in an auction or sale? Or, will they rot on Indian airports as various parties ties the status of the planes in India's notoriously slow courts? What happens to the plane if it is not used for say, 3 months, 6, months, 9 months, 12 months and 24 months? Will its technical status be the same.....in the sense that if, for example, you turned off your computer and let it languish for the same periods, the computer's state would essentially be the same. Or, would there be deterioration? If yes, in what way? Why would engines deteriorate?
 
VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:20 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

The definition of success changed after 9W. 9W going down without losing one vote is a great success. There are no elections for the next five years, killing AI quickly is a timely thing to do. The silver lining, 6E can breathe easy.

We can debate the GoI's "25 years later" investigations all we want, but let's get one thing straight: The 9W shut down was at worst going to be an embarrassment for the Modi government. It was never going to actually swing the election. There were and are much larger issues than a badly managed private airline that the voting public worry about on a day to day basis. ASKM drop on BOM-CDG/AMS is not one of them.
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:52 am

edealinfo wrote:

You are being hard on NG. This is a business failure and you are attaching company issues to him personally which I don't think is correct. Otherwise, no one will get business.

NG make poor business decisions but no business makes good decisions 100% of the time. Plus, in a notoriously difficult and capital intensive business, he managed to keep Jet afloat for 25 years -- no meant feat indeed!

If he ever gets taken down, I hope it is for his political meddling (5/20 rule, bans on foreign investment and then about turn when it suited him, etc). Sadly, Air Asia is taking the heat for lobbying to overturn the idiotic 5/20 rule.


Most of the violations I cited were within last 6 months.

Skipping Provident Funds payments is a very serious
Offense. Someone apparently forgot to mention that to NG.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:44 am

vadodara wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

You are being hard on NG. This is a business failure and you are attaching company issues to him personally which I don't think is correct. Otherwise, no one will get business.

NG make poor business decisions but no business makes good decisions 100% of the time. Plus, in a notoriously difficult and capital intensive business, he managed to keep Jet afloat for 25 years -- no meant feat indeed!

If he ever gets taken down, I hope it is for his political meddling (5/20 rule, bans on foreign investment and then about turn when it suited him, etc). Sadly, Air Asia is taking the heat for lobbying to overturn the idiotic 5/20 rule.


Most of the violations I cited were within last 6 months.

Skipping Provident Funds payments is a very serious
Offense. Someone apparently forgot to mention that to NG.


GoI itself committed a lot of law violations in the last six months. But India is not a land of laws where everyone has to follow the same law, it is a fruit/berry republic. Different circumstances call for different laws/rules.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:11 pm

vadodara wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Skipping Provident Funds payments is a very serious
.


And where is that money going to come from if Jet doesn't have any? Jet doesn't have a money printing press and you can't expect NG himself to be running that press. For heaven's sake there was no money to base base salaries and you are talking about skipping provident fund payments?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

GoI itself committed a lot of law violations in the last six months. But India is not a land of laws where everyone has to follow the same law, it is a fruit/berry republic. Different circumstances call for different laws/rules.



Exactly. So-called laws are applied selectively and a company is on the receiving end of the stick depending on their relation to that powers that be. As an example, investigations were started against NDTV media, went it started getting critical of Govt. policy. In is not just one Government that uses the "investigations" trick -- all political parties, when in power, play the same game.
 
User001
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:08 pm

I think it's unlikely that anyone will start BOM MAN now. If AI starts MAN , they'll add it to their EU bank from DEL. If Vistara starts flying int'l this year, of course Manchester won't be in their list of first few destinations. Only one who can fly is VS and I hope they better try making LHR BOM work first.


Why are we so sure Manchester wouldn’t be one of the first batch of destinations? Heathrow is full, and Gatwick close to full too. KLM have filled the gaps at AMS and AF could do so at CDG.

I also remember when Vistara started looking at Long haul, Manchester was prominently mentioned and is also served by parent company Singapore Airlines, so, they are no strangers to the Manchester market. Jet proved the market existed, and if Vistara and Virgin could team up, back on to a winner.

I seemed to remember we were having these exact same thoughts just before Jet announced MAN. ‘No chance’, ‘nope’ ‘no, definatly not starting MAN’, so, can only take these opinions with the same pinch of salt that you give this post too.
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:35 pm

User001 wrote:
I think it's unlikely that anyone will start BOM MAN now. If AI starts MAN , they'll add it to their EU bank from DEL. If Vistara starts flying int'l this year, of course Manchester won't be in their list of first few destinations. Only one who can fly is VS and I hope they better try making LHR BOM work first.


Why are we so sure Manchester wouldn’t be one of the first batch of destinations? Heathrow is full, and Gatwick close to full too. KLM have filled the gaps at AMS and AF could do so at CDG.

I also remember when Vistara started looking at Long haul, Manchester was prominently mentioned and is also served by parent company Singapore Airlines, so, they are no strangers to the Manchester market. Jet proved the market existed, and if Vistara and Virgin could team up, back on to a winner.

I seemed to remember we were having these exact same thoughts just before Jet announced MAN. ‘No chance’, ‘nope’ ‘no, definatly not starting MAN’, so, can only take these opinions with the same pinch of salt that you give this post too.


Well it's your choice whether you take this with a pinch of salt or not . However what can be seen is :

1. Vistara has a code share partner, BA, so there's absolute zero chance of partnering with VS unless they decide to dump BA. Thus with no VS, no MAN. Their Indian side connections aren't that strong to have a flight with just Indian connections .

2. About LHR, I think BA can arrange some slots for Vistara. India - LHR has a lot of opportunity with 9W closure. Thus BA will like to have a code share partner feeding from India.

3. Aircraft configuration will play a major role too. MAN India isn't as premium market like CDG/ FRA to India. The O&D for MAN is more. Different story. 9W a332 had a 18J , 236 Y config. Y+ might work for this market but if Vistara configures it with 30-32 J, then that's too much for MAN. Given their record, Vistara's more likely to have a high premium configuration.

Even after all these if Vistara can start and sustain a flight to MAN, then that's good. None of us want to lose connectivity to destinations.
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User001
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:01 pm

Well, like I say, all these similar arguments appeared to disprove Jet entering the route, and despite what happened, we all saw them enter the route anyway. We will just have to see how this plays out but all I'm saying is we can't jump to conclusions just yet, stranger things have happened.......
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:27 pm

binayak wrote:

2. About LHR, I think BA can arrange some slots for Vistara. India - LHR has a lot of opportunity with 9W closure. Thus BA will like to have a code share partner feeding from India.


I am not sure I follow the logic. If, for instance, BA has some extra slots, when wouldn’t it use it to start its own flight from LHR to India..,..why give it to Vistara when it can feed itself rather then getting feed from Vistara with with it anyway code-share. Remember it it not a joint venture with Vistara so the one that operates the metal benefits the most.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
binayak wrote:

2. About LHR, I think BA can arrange some slots for Vistara. India - LHR has a lot of opportunity with 9W closure. Thus BA will like to have a code share partner feeding from India.


I am not sure I follow the logic. If, for instance, BA has some extra slots, when wouldn’t it use it to start its own flight from LHR to India..,..why give it to Vistara when it can feed itself rather then getting feed from Vistara with with it anyway code-share. Remember it it not a joint venture with Vistara so the one that operates the metal benefits the most.

Agreed. LHR slots are incredibly valuable. BA should divert a 787 for the route.

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SQ789
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:02 am

Seems like only several planes have not yet been returned to lessors yet. Many of 9W's planes including the entire 737 MAX are now returned.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 am

binayak wrote:

1. Vistara has a code share partner, BA, so there's absolute zero chance of partnering with VS unless they decide to dump BA. Thus with no VS, no MAN. Their Indian side connections aren't that strong to have a flight with just Indian connections .

2. About LHR, I think BA can arrange some slots for Vistara. India - LHR has a lot of opportunity with 9W closure. Thus BA will like to have a code share partner feeding from India..


Expanding on the two points above:

1 - I don’t think it’s a case of Vistara choosing between BA or VS (which commercially is a no brainer). Added to VS you have DL and AF/KL which tilts the commercial scales in the other direction. I also think Vistara and VS are going to evolve quickly over the next 18-24 months, and whilst what you say about connections is broadly accurate today, it is unlikely to be so this time in 2021.

2 - I agree BA will want to retain an Indian codeshare partner, but there is a limited pool to choose from right now and the commercial leverage will be with Vistara. For the reasons set out above it might require a significant concession for BA to retain that feed in the years ahead. Whether they are able and willing to offer slots at LHR when we are consistently told it’s “full” is an interesting question (as noted above I think they would be more likely to add their own capacity on their own metal).
 
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trinidadeG
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:48 am

User001 wrote:
Jet proved the market existed, and if Vistara and Virgin could team up, back on to a winner.

Just my 2p.

BOM-MAN was one of 9W's weaker long haul flights (the other being MAA-CDG) compared to the AMS and LHR flights ex BOM. 9W could only make BOM-MAN work because of VS's strong presence at MAN and 9Ws strong presence at BOM - The flight funnelled many India-US two stop itineraries from Indian Tier II cities on a single PNR apart from serving a small O/D (presumably Indian VFR) market.

UK doesn't have that kind of network out of BOM now. I doubt they ever will go beyond serving only the current "top 10-15 city pairs" from BOM. Hence, If at all UK wanted to attempt MAN, they'd more likely do it from their hub in DEL.

Others have already posted why a UK-VS tie-up is not the most likely of scenarios, given that UK has a code-share relationship with BA.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:45 am

trinidadeG wrote:
User001 wrote:
Jet proved the market existed, and if Vistara and Virgin could team up, back on to a winner.

Just my 2p.

BOM-MAN was one of 9W's weaker long haul flights (the other being MAA-CDG) compared to the AMS and LHR flights ex BOM. 9W could only make BOM-MAN work because of VS's strong presence at MAN and 9Ws strong presence at BOM - The flight funnelled many India-US two stop itineraries from Indian Tier II cities on a single PNR apart from serving a small O/D (presumably Indian VFR) market.

UK doesn't have that kind of network out of BOM now. I doubt they ever will go beyond serving only the current "top 10-15 city pairs" from BOM. Hence, If at all UK wanted to attempt MAN, they'd more likely do it from their hub in DEL.

Others have already posted why a UK-VS tie-up is not the most likely of scenarios, given that UK has a code-share relationship with BA.


I don’t think a code share agreement is anything. I don’t know why people even bring that up. 9W literally had code share and FF agreements with everyone - including all of the US3. Vistara needs to find A US and EU airline that is willing to do a deep partnership like DL/AF/KL/VS did with 9W
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:45 pm

Business Standard newspaper is reporting that in the past 2 months the Jet stock price has dropped 56 percent to......116. What I don’t get is why the price is still so high. are Indian investors totally irrational???? Heck, 99 percent of Jet’s fleet has already been deregistered.

Separately, today a Mumbai court is considering a request by 2 small creditors to force bankruptcy proceedings as it relates to Jet

Finally, moneycontrol.com is reporting that lenders will meet to formally respond to the bids received and the Government has formally given a green light for a deal between the banks and the bidders. If the bidders accept it, Jet could fly mid July!!! If this works out the way it is intended , Moody is the true Jadugar (magician) not Naresh Goyal. I wonder how the antiJet, Moody fans are going to react. how will they justify the about-face???
lightsaber should start a new thread titled, Government approved Jet Airways Reboot Version 3.0

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 78441.html
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:37 pm

I have created a new thread in the link below to discuss a “potential” revival as opposed to comments in this thread that reflect a “shutdown”


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1424453
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:05 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Vistara needs to find A US and EU airline that is willing to do a deep partnership like DL/AF/KL/VS did with 9W

What is the "deep partnership" that you speak ok?
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:27 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Vistara needs to find A US and EU airline that is willing to do a deep partnership like DL/AF/KL/VS did with 9W

What is the "deep partnership" that you speak ok?


Either a virtual JV (like 9W and Delta had) or a real metal neutral JV. Indian airlines need much more than code shares. They need real access to cheap connecting seats (say from EU to USA) and level 1 frequent flyer tie ups. DL basically only gives full Milagros earning on DL and JV metal plus they included Jet. This was a huge win for Jet that most sky team partners don’t even have. They basically need their partner to be invested in their success (even if they actually don’t have an investment). Sadly for U.K., SQ doesn’t really help them as the main long haul traffic flows are to NA and Europe. Now a tie up with BA and AA would be great for them but BA is already strong in india as is LH. That is why I still think DL/AF would give the best deal to UK
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:32 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Business Standard newspaper is reporting that in the past 2 months the Jet stock price has dropped 56 percent to......116. What I don’t get is why the price is still so high. are Indian investors totally irrational???? Heck, 99 percent of Jet’s fleet has already been deregistered.

Separately, today a Mumbai court is considering a request by 2 small creditors to force bankruptcy proceedings as it relates to Jet

Finally, moneycontrol.com is reporting that lenders will meet to formally respond to the bids received and the Government has formally given a green light for a deal between the banks and the bidders. If the bidders accept it, Jet could fly mid July!!! If this works out the way it is intended , Moody is the true Jadugar (magician) not Naresh Goyal. I wonder how the antiJet, Moody fans are going to react. how will they justify the about-face???
lightsaber should start a new thread titled, Government approved Jet Airways Reboot Version 3.0

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 78441.html


Let’s see if this really happens. Even if it does Jet will be much smaller. They will keep BOM and DEL/BLR. I think all other P2P will end (save some business heaven routes). This will open up opportunities for other airlines. So can still be a win for everyone. That said, I doubt all news reports on jet - I’ll believe it only when there are multiple reports that it is happening
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:37 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I have created a new thread in the link below to discuss a “potential” revival as opposed to comments in this thread that reflect a “shutdown”


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1424453

Please continue to discuss here.
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Vistara needs to find A US and EU airline that is willing to do a deep partnership like DL/AF/KL/VS did with 9W

What is the "deep partnership" that you speak ok?


Either a virtual JV (like 9W and Delta had) or a real metal neutral JV. Indian airlines need much more than code shares. They need real access to cheap connecting seats (say from EU to USA) and level 1 frequent flyer tie ups. DL basically only gives full Milagros earning on DL and JV metal plus they included Jet. This was a huge win for Jet that most sky team partners don’t even have. They basically need their partner to be invested in their success (even if they actually don’t have an investment). Sadly for U.K., SQ doesn’t really help them as the main long haul traffic flows are to NA and Europe. Now a tie up with BA and AA would be great for them but BA is already strong in india as is LH. That is why I still think DL/AF would give the best deal to UK

Indian airlines need better integration with alliances. A JV would be ideal. For a new Jet, UK, or any other Indian airline wanting excellent profits to North America.

Lightsaber
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User001
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:40 pm

trinidadeG wrote:
User001 wrote:
Jet proved the market existed, and if Vistara and Virgin could team up, back on to a winner.

Just my 2p.

BOM-MAN was one of 9W's weaker long haul flights (the other being MAA-CDG) compared to the AMS and LHR flights ex BOM. 9W could only make BOM-MAN work because of VS's strong presence at MAN and 9Ws strong presence at BOM - The flight funnelled many India-US two stop itineraries from Indian Tier II cities on a single PNR apart from serving a small O/D (presumably Indian VFR) market.

UK doesn't have that kind of network out of BOM now. I doubt they ever will go beyond serving only the current "top 10-15 city pairs" from BOM. Hence, If at all UK wanted to attempt MAN, they'd more likely do it from their hub in DEL.

Others have already posted why a UK-VS tie-up is not the most likely of scenarios, given that UK has a code-share relationship with BA.


But you need to remember it was only a few months old when Jet folded the newest routes are always the 'weakest', and when you consider the pedigree of cities Jet served Long Haul wise (LHR/CDG etc) of course it was going to be the 'weakest'.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:23 pm

edealinfo wrote:

Separately, today a Mumbai court is considering a request by 2 small creditors to force bankruptcy proceedings as it relates to Jet



Here is the problem for any "reboot"

The banks can take any haircut they deem necessary, but they cannot force the unsecured creditors (including Jet employees) to take haircuts on the amounts they are due.

The unsecured debt is significant enough in and of itself to make Jet uneconomical to revive even with a 90% haircut by the banks.

IMO, this is all just typical political and media drama and hype...and now they will have no offices as well since they have been given eviction notice by their landlord...Mr Goyel.

I cannot see any reboot plan coming to fruition without a bankruptcy court addressing the legal rights of the unsecured creditors.
 
aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:39 pm

edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
[i]I

1. Meanwhile, SpiceJet head Mr. Ajay Singh is already cozying up to the new Civil Aviation chief.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8Xk9FzUcAAf8L6?format=jpg&name=medium

2. Is also President Boxing Federation of India
https://mobile.twitter.com/flyspicejet/status/1136472351703412737/photo/1



1. In the picture, the Aviation Minister looks like he hasn't slept in 5 days (and correct me if I am wrong, but does each of his eyes have a different color?) Maybe he works a lot. Are Ajay Sing and the Minister both Punjabis?

2. What is it with corporate honchos, politicians and actors, all trying to get on sports bodies. Is it for the publicity, fame, or power?

1. So we are now discussing physical looks and personal characteristics now ? Trying to find some point to blame them ? How does it matter if they are both Punjabis OR not?

2. Again, have you done anything meaningful in India OR understand the long prevailing workings of the system (Not arguing whether Good or Bad here). Feel free to discuss in Non-Aviation/Indian Politics instead of trying to find reasons to blame beloved Jet's demise on government.

-R
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:52 pm

edealinfo wrote:
vadodara wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Regardless of the outcome, I am glad this story will come to an end on June 10. As for the outcome, I am betting Jet will go under. The government has already hinted that it will award Jet's international rights "soon". This leads me to believe that this announcement would be made on June 11....that way the Govt can claim that no bids came in by June 10 and therefore they are reallocating Jet's rights (on June 11). At least this way they have a defensible timeline.


Ah yes, this should end Jet Airways misery.

Now the focus on NG. I can already see some counts under which he might be booked:
Unpaid salaries
Unpaid provident fund
Probably taxes and fuel
Bank guarantees

In addition, diversion of funds and therefore taxes
Some sort of racketeering charges about how investments came in Jet in the first place

Perhaps some of the Class F seats can be moved to the court room because he is going to be there for a while ....

For nostalgia purposes some die hard Jet employees can serve NG scotch there as well


You are being hard on NG. This is a business failure and you are attaching company issues to him personally which I don't think is correct. Otherwise, no one will get business.

NG make poor business decisions but no business makes good decisions 100% of the time. Plus, in a notoriously difficult and capital intensive business, he managed to keep Jet afloat for 25 years -- no meant feat indeed!

If he ever gets taken down, I hope it is for his political meddling (5/20 rule, bans on foreign investment and then about turn when it suited him, etc). Sadly, Air Asia is taking the heat for lobbying to overturn the idiotic 5/20 rule.


Sure, All of good fortunes and success of Jet are NG's whereas any bad things are business's bucket, not personally attributable to former owner of beloved Jet Airways.

As far as charges and investigations are concerned, kindly let the proper authorities to take care of it and figure out what charges to make, IF ANY. Practice of investigations and charges are nothing India specific, e.g. notorious Al Capone was charged and found guilty of tax evasion .
Love the AIXes
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:54 pm

aarbee wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
avier wrote:
[i]I

1. Meanwhile, SpiceJet head Mr. Ajay Singh is already cozying up to the new Civil Aviation chief.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8Xk9FzUcAAf8L6?format=jpg&name=medium

2. Is also President Boxing Federation of India
https://mobile.twitter.com/flyspicejet/status/1136472351703412737/photo/1



1. In the picture, the Aviation Minister looks like he hasn't slept in 5 days (and correct me if I am wrong, but does each of his eyes have a different color?) Maybe he works a lot. Are Ajay Sing and the Minister both Punjabis?

2. What is it with corporate honchos, politicians and actors, all trying to get on sports bodies. Is it for the publicity, fame, or power?

1. So we are now discussing physical looks and personal characteristics now ? Trying to find some point to blame them ? How does it matter if they are both Punjabis OR not?

2. Again, have you done anything meaningful in India OR understand the long prevailing workings of the system (Not arguing whether Good or Bad here). Feel free to discuss in Non-Aviation/Indian Politics instead of trying to find reasons to blame beloved Jet's demise on government.

-R

Conversely, have you even realized that you have repeatedly, through your opinions and posts, exposed your affinity for Spicejet? Is that what anything that could be positive for Jet upsets you so much?

Frankly, I couldn’t care two hoots whether you are a SpiceJet fanboy, but I do care that everyone on this forum should have a right to express their opinion, including those that find fancy with Jet.
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
1. I like your bold predictions. If even 50% are right, you will be KIng.

2. Unfortunately, the Government may be defining "success" as selling Air India, not its dissolution. If no one buys it, I suspect it will still be a tire around the Government's neck that politically it will not be able to get rid off. My suggestion is for the Govt., to sell Air India in individual pieces.....Air India Major, Alliance Air, Air India Express, Air India Engineering, AI-SATS, etc.....this way at least some individual pieces will be sold and they can at least SHRINK Air India.


I will be happy if I am 100% wrong.

The definition of success changed after 9W. 9W going down without losing one vote is a great success. There are no elections for the next five years, killing AI quickly is a timely thing to do. The silver lining, 6E can breathe easy.

As I said, no foreign investor or foreign airline manager will set foot in India. No one wants to get involved in never-ending investigations and lookout notices. There are other business-friendly countries in the world.

It is quite amusing about your continuous insinuations that the recently concluded general elections were a referendum on , much less Civil Aviation, Jet Airways situation. I'm sure out of 1.3b people 1b were more concerned about more pressing needs than some airline

Do not understand how Air India's association to 6E breathing easy.

If you are suggesting that for being business friendly, all liberties should given, corruption should be a norm, crony capitalism (expect suggesting that ONLY current govt does it) is OK, laws of lands should not be followed, etc. Then let it be business unfriendly country.

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm

VTORD wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The definition of success changed after 9W. 9W going down without losing one vote is a great success. There are no elections for the next five years, killing AI quickly is a timely thing to do. The silver lining, 6E can breathe easy.

We can debate the GoI's "25 years later" investigations all we want, but let's get one thing straight: The 9W shut down was at worst going to be an embarrassment for the Modi government. It was never going to actually swing the election. There were and are much larger issues than a badly managed private airline that the voting public worry about on a day to day basis. ASKM drop on BOM-CDG/AMS is not one of them.

It was never going to actually swing the election. --> Precisely, not a referendum on a badly managed airline.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Most of the violations I cited were within last 6 months.

Skipping Provident Funds payments is a very serious
Offense. Someone apparently forgot to mention that to NG.


GoI itself committed a lot of law violations in the last six months. But India is not a land of laws where everyone has to follow the same law, it is a fruit/berry republic. Different circumstances call for different laws/rules.

Care to prove your point. Or you will constantly berate the thriving 1.3b democracy because they did not vote following your direction . Somebody whom you don't like (a gross understatement) is re-elected by the Indian electorate AND suddenly India becomes a "fruit/berry republic". WOW

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:22 pm

edealinfo wrote:
vadodara wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Skipping Provident Funds payments is a very serious
.


And where is that money going to come from if Jet doesn't have any? Jet doesn't have a money printing press and you can't expect NG himself to be running that press. For heaven's sake there was no money to base base salaries and you are talking about skipping provident fund payments?


So IF the law concludes NG intentionally did not pay salaries/contribute to PF and siphoned funds from Jet Airways, you will still be OK not to go after NG, right?

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:29 pm

edealinfo wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

GoI itself committed a lot of law violations in the last six months. But India is not a land of laws where everyone has to follow the same law, it is a fruit/berry republic. Different circumstances call for different laws/rules.



Exactly. So-called laws are applied selectively and a company is on the receiving end of the stick depending on their relation to that powers that be. As an example, investigations were started against NDTV media, went it started getting critical of Govt. policy. In is not just one Government that uses the "investigations" trick -- all political parties, when in power, play the same game.

Do you have any proof behind that accusation?

Oh so now if current GOI goes after an entity , the laws are selectively applied and India suddenly becomes a "fruit/berry republic" just because it beloved Jet Airways failed due to it's own mis-management.

:thumbsup:
Love the AIXes
 
User avatar
trinidadeG
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:40 pm

User001 wrote:
trinidadeG wrote:
User001 wrote:

Jet proved the market existed, and if Vistara and Virgin could team up, back on to a winner.

Just my 2p.

BOM-MAN was one of 9W's weaker long haul flights (the other being MAA-CDG) compared to the AMS and LHR flights ex BOM. 9W could only make BOM-MAN work because of VS's strong presence at MAN and 9Ws strong presence at BOM - The flight funnelled many India-US two stop itineraries from Indian Tier II cities on a single PNR apart from serving a small O/D (presumably Indian VFR) market.

UK doesn't have that kind of network out of BOM now. I doubt they ever will go beyond serving only the current "top 10-15 city pairs" from BOM. Hence, If at all UK wanted to attempt MAN, they'd more likely do it from their hub in DEL.

Others have already posted why a UK-VS tie-up is not the most likely of scenarios, given that UK has a code-share relationship with BA.


But you need to remember it was only a few months old when Jet folded the newest routes are always the 'weakest', and when you consider the pedigree of cities Jet served Long Haul wise (LHR/CDG etc) of course it was going to be the 'weakest'.

I was replying in the context of your question, "why not MAN..?", and your statement "Jet has proved...".

Jet did not prove anything on BOM-MAN, IMO. They were merely attempting to make that city pair work because they had support from VS (w.r.t onward US/NA traffic) to supplement India-UK O/D to fill their A332.
I believe that, simply because 9W attempted the route before they folded, doesn't mean that other airlines will now jump at the idea of flying BOM-MAN, even if we consider that the route was only a few months old.

In the case of AMS-BLR, o.t.o.h, I think the fact that KLM has decided to fly the route on their own metal suggests that Jet indeed proved the market existed.
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:41 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
unrave wrote:
What is the "deep partnership" that you speak ok?


Either a virtual JV (like 9W and Delta had) or a real metal neutral JV. Indian airlines need much more than code shares. They need real access to cheap connecting seats (say from EU to USA) and level 1 frequent flyer tie ups. DL basically only gives full Milagros earning on DL and JV metal plus they included Jet. This was a huge win for Jet that most sky team partners don’t even have. They basically need their partner to be invested in their success (even if they actually don’t have an investment). Sadly for U.K., SQ doesn’t really help them as the main long haul traffic flows are to NA and Europe. Now a tie up with BA and AA would be great for them but BA is already strong in india as is LH. That is why I still think DL/AF would give the best deal to UK

Indian airlines need better integration with alliances. A JV would be ideal. For a new Jet, UK, or any other Indian airline wanting excellent profits to North America.

Lightsaber

It's beyond that.
1) The leading Indian airlines are low cost. So If the passengers have to be worried about baggage issues (weight, # of pieces) it's will be a factor
2) If the connection from BOM/DEL are are ill timed (waiting 8 hours, that too in dead night) and expect to admire art work in BOM, another factor
3) Something innovative needs to be brought out so the transit is bearable (issues of bags, recheckin, get boarding passes, etc.) . Not entirely in the hands of Airlines.

-R
Love the AIXes
 
Antarius
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:48 pm

edealinfo wrote:
aarbee wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

1. In the picture, the Aviation Minister looks like he hasn't slept in 5 days (and correct me if I am wrong, but does each of his eyes have a different color?) Maybe he works a lot. Are Ajay Sing and the Minister both Punjabis?

2. What is it with corporate honchos, politicians and actors, all trying to get on sports bodies. Is it for the publicity, fame, or power?

1. So we are now discussing physical looks and personal characteristics now ? Trying to find some point to blame them ? How does it matter if they are both Punjabis OR not?

2. Again, have you done anything meaningful in India OR understand the long prevailing workings of the system (Not arguing whether Good or Bad here). Feel free to discuss in Non-Aviation/Indian Politics instead of trying to find reasons to blame beloved Jet's demise on government.

-R

Conversely, have you even realized that you have repeatedly, through your opinions and posts, exposed your affinity for Spicejet? Is that what anything that could be positive for Jet upsets you so much?

Frankly, I couldn’t care two hoots whether you are a SpiceJet fanboy, but I do care that everyone on this forum should have a right to express their opinion, including those that find fancy with Jet.


You understand that, for most people, airlines are a commodity and not emotional companions.

I have a non-hidden 6E preference as they fly all the routes I need and it sucks less than AI and the now deceased 9W. I have not flown SG post reincarnation and UK is too limited. If someone else comes and meets my needs and makes money (which meets my long term needs), then sure - I'd switch.

Having a commercially rational affinity isnt a problem. However that's a depth of discourse level deeper than this thread is seemingly capable of.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:59 pm

edealinfo wrote:
aarbee wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

1. In the picture, the Aviation Minister looks like he hasn't slept in 5 days (and correct me if I am wrong, but does each of his eyes have a different color?) Maybe he works a lot. Are Ajay Sing and the Minister both Punjabis?

2. What is it with corporate honchos, politicians and actors, all trying to get on sports bodies. Is it for the publicity, fame, or power?

1. So we are now discussing physical looks and personal characteristics now ? Trying to find some point to blame them ? How does it matter if they are both Punjabis OR not?

2. Again, have you done anything meaningful in India OR understand the long prevailing workings of the system (Not arguing whether Good or Bad here). Feel free to discuss in Non-Aviation/Indian Politics instead of trying to find reasons to blame beloved Jet's demise on government.

-R

Conversely, have you even realized that you have repeatedly, through your opinions and posts, exposed your affinity for Spicejet? Is that what anything that could be positive for Jet upsets you so much?

Frankly, I couldn’t care two hoots whether you are a SpiceJet fanboy, but I do care that everyone on this forum should have a right to express their opinion, including those that find fancy with Jet.

Affinity to Spice/Spice fanboy. That's laughable.

Have I said anything pro Spice here for me to qualify as a SpiceJet fanboy.

In the picture, the Aviation Minister looks like he hasn't slept in 5 days (and correct me if I am wrong, but does each of his eyes have a different color?) Maybe he works a lot. Are Ajay Sing and the Minister both Punjabis? --> Kindly point a positive for Jet in this sentence.

What is it with corporate honchos, politicians and actors, all trying to get on sports bodies. Is it for the publicity, fame, or power? --> Kindly point a positive for Jet in this sentence.


There is NO issue about right to opinion here.
Berating the looks of an aged gentleman, implying favoritism because of same ethnicity, arguing Non-Aviation issues (Spice promoter in sport body) saying that it is positive for beloved Jet Airways is questionable.

In my travels to India, I have traveled on more on Jet, Indigo, Air India - individually- then I have traveled on Spice. Unlike you I do not have a specif love for any airline in my travels to India.

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:35 pm

Antarius wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
aarbee wrote:
1. So we are now discussing physical looks and personal characteristics now ? Trying to find some point to blame them ? How does it matter if they are both Punjabis OR not?

2. Again, have you done anything meaningful in India OR understand the long prevailing workings of the system (Not arguing whether Good or Bad here). Feel free to discuss in Non-Aviation/Indian Politics instead of trying to find reasons to blame beloved Jet's demise on government.

-R

Conversely, have you even realized that you have repeatedly, through your opinions and posts, exposed your affinity for Spicejet? Is that what anything that could be positive for Jet upsets you so much?

Frankly, I couldn’t care two hoots whether you are a SpiceJet fanboy, but I do care that everyone on this forum should have a right to express their opinion, including those that find fancy with Jet.


You understand that, for most people, airlines are a commodity and not emotional companions.

I have a non-hidden 6E preference as they fly all the routes I need and it sucks less than AI and the now deceased 9W. I have not flown SG post reincarnation and UK is too limited. If someone else comes and meets my needs and makes money (which meets my long term needs), then sure - I'd switch.

Having a commercially rational affinity isnt a problem. However that's a depth of discourse level deeper than this thread is seemingly capable of.


Precisely, it's a commodity and choice depends on needs and personal preferences and not emotional attachment.

Personally, if it boils down to Spice and Indigo (low cost), everything else the same I go with Indigo as I feel more comfortable in A320 (having NO hatred for B737)

-R
Love the AIXes
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7093
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
...
Indian airlines need better integration with alliances. A JV would be ideal. For a new Jet, UK, or any other Indian airline wanting excellent profits to North America.

Lightsaber


US3/EU3 unions won't allow JVs with airlines based out of low labor cost countries.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
...
Indian airlines need better integration with alliances. A JV would be ideal. For a new Jet, UK, or any other Indian airline wanting excellent profits to North America.

Lightsaber


US3/EU3 unions won't allow JVs with airlines based out of low labor cost countries.


Proof?

Or want to go 0-fer even more?
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
vadodara
Posts: 964
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:29 am

edealinfo wrote:
vadodara wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

Skipping Provident Funds payments is a very serious
.


And where is that money going to come from if Jet doesn't have any? Jet doesn't have a money printing press and you can't expect NG himself to be running that press. For heaven's sake there was no money to base base salaries and you are talking about skipping provident fund payments?


Umm yes, it is called running a business. If you run a business, you are required to make the payroll.
 
sibibom
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:01 am

So I think the officially end is upon us....

End of the runway for Jet Airways as Etihad, Hinduja baulk


Hinduja halts negotiations, Etihad shelves plan to increase its investment
Abu Dhabi-based Etihad was earlier keen to save its investment in Jet Airways, but now that plan is on the back burner

source : https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 63307.html
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1714
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:55 am

sibibom wrote:
So I think the officially end is upon us....

End of the runway for Jet Airways as Etihad, Hinduja baulk


Hinduja halts negotiations, Etihad shelves plan to increase its investment
Abu Dhabi-based Etihad was earlier keen to save its investment in Jet Airways, but now that plan is on the back burner

source : https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 63307.html


You got to give the Government points for it brilliant strategy. First, it gives permission for banks to make a deal (so no one can blame the Government for its lack of effort), but at the same time it ensures that Jet is embroiled in various investigations so no one could reasonably invest without taking on a major risk. A light bulb just went on at the Hindujas, who earlier couldn't see the writing on the wall. Game,set , match to Ajay Singh of Spicejet who brilliantly leveraged his political connections, and his business acumen, to capitalize on Jet's downfall.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1699
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:57 am

edealinfo wrote:
sibibom wrote:
So I think the officially end is upon us....

End of the runway for Jet Airways as Etihad, Hinduja baulk


Hinduja halts negotiations, Etihad shelves plan to increase its investment
Abu Dhabi-based Etihad was earlier keen to save its investment in Jet Airways, but now that plan is on the back burner

source : https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 63307.html


You got to give the Government points for it brilliant strategy. First, it gives permission for banks to make a deal (so no one can blame the Government for its lack of effort), but at the same time it ensures that Jet is embroiled in various investigations so no one could reasonably invest without taking on a major risk. A light bulb just went on at the Hindujas, who earlier couldn't see the writing on the wall. Game,set , match to Ajay Singh of Spicejet who brilliantly leveraged his political connections, and his business acumen, to capitalize on Jet's downfall.


*takes tin foil off* Or.....9W is a financial mess and people decide is not worth reviving.

There is a reason this thread is predominantly 2 posters now spouting barely literate and clearly not researched tripe. The echo chamber of incorrect nonsense is tiring.

Source, or stop. Otherwise, call it what it is - this is a non-aviation opinion thread and it should be moved.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR KTM MFM MEX MSY BWI DEN
 
User avatar
trinidadeG
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:43 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:04 am

sibibom wrote:
So I think the officially end is upon us....

End of the runway for Jet Airways as Etihad, Hinduja baulk


Hinduja halts negotiations, Etihad shelves plan to increase its investment
Abu Dhabi-based Etihad was earlier keen to save its investment in Jet Airways, but now that plan is on the back burner

source : https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 63307.html


The story will continue, of course, as the Tatas have previously been quoted as being interested in picking up Jet only after the airline company goes to the NCLT (bankruptcy court).
 
sibibom
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:11 am

With Air India hopefully on the blocks soon, Tata will clearly prefer that over Jet
 
avier
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:40 am

Continue to work towards reviving Jet Airways, says Etihad refuting halt in negotiations

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/continue-to-work-towards-reviving-jet-airways-says-etihad-refuting-halt-in-negotiations-4085081.html

Interesting twist.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1714
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:03 am

trinidadeG wrote:

The story will continue, of course, as the Tatas have previously been quoted as being interested in picking up Jet only after the airline company goes to the NCLT (bankruptcy court).

And what exactly will they be bidding on? 99 percent of Jet’s fleet has been deregistered.
Last edited by edealinfo on Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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