DarthLobster
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:49 am

How is this thread still going???
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:07 am

edealinfo wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
The IBC isn’t auctioning Jet’s slots (since it is not an asset of Jet but a Government asset). Even if they were to sell the slots no one would buy them for fear that airlines that got it temporarily will force endless litigation.

All that they can auction or sell are furniture and fixtures, equipment (including the old busses that move people around the airport) etc. there is no real assets to speak off other than the owner aircraft on which there are multiple charges.


Sorry I didn’t mean selling their slots by themselves. I know they can’t do that. If they sell Jet, the company, the slots stay with the company. Technically Jet (the company) still has the slots come the end of October. That is why Vistara was hesitating initially from adding new aircraft. The GOI could take away the slots from Jet (the company) but for some reason has chosen to not take them away even with Jet going into the IBC. Again the news stories are very confusing on what can/will happen in this process. But the reports you have been posting all make it seem that someone could buy a clean Jet. My gut says this will never happen but I am just commenting on the stories people are posting.


Agreed'; If the Resolution Professional (RP) is smart he will market the potential sale with the slots. As it is India, and he is in charge, he can pretty much make up the rules since things aren't really clear and he who leads the way sets the rules to be followed. Who will realistically oppose his decision to maximize the value in a sale of a new Jet? But, such a person would need to have kahunas to lead the way and I am not sure that is the case. Second, I am unclear if he will deliver on a "clean" Jet.

Regardless of what the RP can do, I think the fate of Jet has already been sealed. Ajay Singh ain't going to preside over his company's collapse from getting 40 ex-Jet planes to fill in Jet's void and then having the rug pulled from under his feet. There is too much at stake here. Being close to the Government and toeing the Government line delivers results, as it always has, in Indian business history.


If Jet comes back I don’t think it will mean the collapse of Spice. I pretty sure the airlines did short term leases for the planes (some early reports said as much). Plus Jet 2.0 will be much smaller than the old Jet. Spice can reallocate capacity and make money on those routes. BOM slots are not everything.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:46 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I pretty sure the airlines did short term leases for the planes (some early reports said as much).


There were reports in the media that all the leases for ex-Jet planes taken over by SpiceJet are for 2 years. I wouldn't call 2 years (in the current scenario of filling Jet's void with the possibility that the carpet could be pulled under its feet in a hypothetical Jet revival) a "short term" lease in this specific context.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:54 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
BOM slots are not everything.


I respectfully disagree. I thing it is EVERYTHING.

Note that Bombay airport cannot be expanded, and the new airport, when constructed, would be inconvenient, for those residing in the main city. So, airlines that have slots in the "primary" Bombay airport can milk it for years to come.

Note that Ajay Singh realized the potential of BOM when he bid for an UDAN route with zero subsidy. He just wanted the BOM slot. Voila, that turned out to be a money spinning route for him zero competition on the route and loads consistently over 90% from Day 1. That's the lesson he took from it -- why do you think he went totally bananas in an attempt to get 40 ex-Jet planes most of which are to be deployed on BOM routes?
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:07 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
BOM slots are not everything.


I respectfully disagree. I thing it is EVERYTHING.



True. For the fact that one airline (Vistara) went to the extent of adding a new fleet type (737) on such short notice just to grab hold of those slots. Another (Spice) is taking 40 aircrafts in a month for those slots, and others pulling out of Int'l markets/flights just so they could redeploy that capacity in seizing those lucrative slots

Now imagine if this were for another airport's slots, would those airlines have gone to such an extent for seizing them?

Also Jets fate of finding a buyer rests on the slots , as was the condition put by the bidders, but that doesn't seem possible again so no buyer hopes too.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:16 pm

avier wrote:
True. For the fact that one airline (Vistara) went to the extent of adding a new fleet type (737) on such short notice just to grab hold of those slots.


The larger issue is why Vistara didn't "go big". I mean if they took on 10 different type aircraft, they might as well have gone for, say 25 737 NG rather than left the opportunity for SpiceJet. Surely, the lessors would have preferred Vistara over SpiceJet, and there were plenty of ex-Jet staff waiting to be hired.

My opinion is that:

a) Vistara was a slow reactor. They moved only after SpiceJet made an incredibly effective play.

b) They are conservative.

c) They didn't trust the Government, or courts, which could reverse the decision on slots.

d) They had a partner to deal with (Singapore Airlines) so decision-making couldn't be done quickly.

e) Probably unlikely but possible -- they were afraid of SpiceJet's political connections and its likely impact if they went head-to-head with Spicejet [at the same scale] in going after slots.

f) They were afraid that Subrameanium Swarmy [SS] (who is exceptionally media savvy) would raise a stink on slot allotment . Note that SS previously sued both Vistara and AirAsia India on grounds that India's investment rules for foreign airlines buying equity, were only intended for existing airlines at that time [when Vistara and Air Asia India were not in existence), and not for "new" airlines. And, we all know the motive for why he sued.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:22 pm

edealinfo wrote:
. [A different matter is that SS made up an excuse to sue them at the behest of his benefactors -- a powerful monopoly-like airline rival]

Source?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:27 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
. [A different matter is that SS made up an excuse to sue them at the behest of his benefactors -- a powerful monopoly-like airline rival]

Source?


Do your research and use logical inference.

Also, ask yourself, why would SS interpret Government regulation [on foreign airline investment in Indian airlines] in a way that is different from the legislators that passed the bill and the Indian Government that approved the investment. I mean why on earth would SS be interested in this aspect of aviation when there are a ton of issues in India that he could focus on. Why this?

There is a lot of political interference in India's aviation business. Indigo, Spicejet, Jet, and Air India have all played this instrument.

You believe that Jet manipulated the Government but refuse to accept that the current Government cannot be played. How naive!
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:33 pm

unrave wrote:
If you can't then your statement is nothing more than a baseless allegation.


yes...just like my baseless allegation that SpiceJet was favored in allocation of Jet's slots.

It is like an ostrich that puts its head in the sand; what it can't directly see, doesn't happen or exist in its world.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:34 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
If you can't then your statement is nothing more than a baseless allegation.


yes...just like my baseless allegation that SpiceJet was favored in allocation of Jet's slots.


So don't pass off your allegations as facts?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:36 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
If you can't then your statement is nothing more than a baseless allegation.


yes...just like my baseless allegation that SpiceJet was favored in allocation of Jet's slots.


So don't pass off your allegations as facts?


What "proof" do you need that Spicejet was favored in allocation of Jet's slots?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:41 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:

So don't pass off your allegations as facts?


What "proof" do you need that Spicejet was favored in allocation of Jet's slots?

Something more substantial than rants on an internet forum will be a good start.


If you think that SpiceJet wasn't favored then I have nothing more to say, maybe except for...........recommending a show on ostriches.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:46 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

What "proof" do you need that Spicejet was favored in allocation of Jet's slots?

Something more substantial than rants on an internet forum will be a good start.


If you think that SpiceJet wasn't favored then I have nothing more to say, maybe except for...........recommending a show on ostriches.

Boss, we don't want your empty rhetoric. Show us the PROOF.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:55 pm

unrave wrote:
Boss, we don't want your empty rhetoric. Show us the PROOF.


"IndiGo, Tatas protest govt's basis for allotting Jet Airways slots"

."....have opposed a government decision to allocate Jet Airways slots only to those deploying new aircraft. Such a decision, they say, will harm their commercial viability and negate a level-playing field."

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 034_1.html

"After Jet's fall a bahubali flexes his muscle: How Spicejet's Ajay Singh is using DGCA"

https://prime.economictimes.indiatimes. ... tle-indigo

Above is only a small sample...

Next time do your own research when you ask for proof; there are no servants on this forum to serve at one's beck and call.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:03 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Boss, we don't want your empty rhetoric. Show us the PROOF.


"IndiGo, Tatas protest govt's basis for allotting Jet Airways slots"

."....have opposed a government decision to allocate Jet Airways slots only to those deploying new aircraft. Such a decision, they say, will harm their commercial viability and negate a level-playing field."

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 034_1.html

"After Jet's fall a bahubali flexes his muscle: How Spicejet's Ajay Singh is using DGCA"

https://prime.economictimes.indiatimes. ... tle-indigo

Above is only a small sample...

Next time do your own research when you ask for proof; there are no servants on this forum to serve at one's beck and call.


Boss, you were asked to provide proof of your claim of "SS sued at the behest of XYZ".
Inability to back a claim with a source is the telltale sign of BS.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:09 pm

unrave wrote:

Boss, you were asked to provide proof of your claim of "SS sued at the behest of XYZ".
Inability to back a claim with a source is the telltale sign of BS.


Provided you accept that the current Government unduly and unjustly favored Spicejet to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. If you don't then there is zero chance you will accept anything.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:10 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Provided you accept that the current Government unduly and unjustly favored Spicejet to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. If you don't then there is zero chance you will accept anything.


So you have nothing to back that claim? That was BS then? Got it.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:12 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Provided you accept that the current Government unduly and unjustly favored Spicejet to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. If you don't then there is zero chance you will accept anything.


So you have nothing to back that claim? That was BS then? Got it.


So,you don't accept that SpiceJet was unduly and unjustly favored by the current Indian Government to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. I understand your BS position. Got it!
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:18 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Provided you accept that the current Government unduly and unjustly favored Spicejet to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. If you don't then there is zero chance you will accept anything.


So you have nothing to back that claim? That was BS then? Got it.


So,you don't accept that SpiceJet was unduly and unjustly favored by the current Indian Government to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. I understand your position. Got it!


That was a poor attempt at deflection, try better next time.
Your claim will remain BS until you provide a source.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:23 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:

So you have nothing to back that claim? That was BS then? Got it.


So,you don't accept that SpiceJet was unduly and unjustly favored by the current Indian Government to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. I understand your position. Got it!


That was a poor attempt at deflection, try better next time.
Your claim will remain BS until you provide a source.


My point is that you will never ever accept any kind of proof, no matter what, and I proved it as you refused to accept that SpiceJet was unduly and unjustly favored by the current Indian Government to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:36 pm

If you don't believe what's stated bluntly in bold in headlines in Indian newspapers, nothing will ever convince you ever. As I stated earlier, do you own research and use logical inference. No servants here on this forum.

"After Jet's fall a bahubali flexes his muscle: How Spicejet's Ajay Singh is using DGCA"
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:38 pm

edealinfo wrote:
If you don't believe what's stated bluntly in bold in headlines in Indian newspapers, nothing will ever convince you ever.

Go ahead, show me the "Bluntly stated headline in an Indian newspaper" that corroborates your claim of Su Swami suing at the behest of XYZ airline.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:40 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
If you don't believe what's stated bluntly in bold in headlines in Indian newspapers, nothing will ever convince you ever.
"After Jet's fall a bahubali flexes his muscle: How Spicejet's Ajay Singh is using DGCA"

Go ahead, show me the "Bluntly stated headline in an Indian newspaper" that corroborates your claim of Su Swami suing at the behest of XYZ airline.



That was a poor attempt at deflection, try better next time.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:43 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
If you don't believe what's stated bluntly in bold in headlines in Indian newspapers, nothing will ever convince you ever.

Go ahead, show me the "Bluntly stated headline in an Indian newspaper" that corroborates your claim of Su Swami suing at the behest of XYZ airline.



That was a poor attempt at deflection, try better next time.


No, I am not deflecting, I am sticking to my only demand from the beginning: Corroborate your claim regarding Su Swami.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:45 pm

unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Go ahead, show me the "Bluntly stated headline in an Indian newspaper" that corroborates your claim of Su Swami suing at the behest of XYZ airline.



That was a poor attempt at deflection, try better next time.


No, I am not deflecting, I am sticking to my only demand from the beginning: Corroborate your claim regarding Su Swami.


Like I said previously, you will never accept anything, NO MATTER WHAT. And, I proved it! Why bother.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:51 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
edealinfo wrote:


That was a poor attempt at deflection, try better next time.


No, I am not deflecting, I am sticking to my only demand from the beginning: Corroborate your claim regarding Su Swami.


Like I said previously, you will never accept anything, NO MATTER WHAT. And, I proved it! Why bother.


Boss, you have proved squat. All you have done is skirt the topic because you have argued yourself into a corner.

I am sure like me a lot of people are interested in knowing more about Swami's shenanigans as you have claimed. All we want is some proof. Go ahead.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:57 pm

unrave wrote:
Go ahead.


Have you accepted that the Indian Government unfairly and unduly favored SpriceJet to the detriment of of other carriers and the Indian public? If you are not convinced of that, no amount of convincing on any other topic will ever help.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:03 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
Go ahead.


Have you accepted that the Indian Government unfairly and unduly favored SpriceJet to the detriment of of other carriers and the Indian public? If you are not convinced of that, no amount of convincing on any other topic will ever help.


Please do not bring in irrelevant arguments. What I do and do not accept regarding GoI's actions regarding SpiceJet has no bearing on your claim.

Give us the proof to back your allegation that Su Swami sued at the behest of some airline. That is all I ask.
Edit: Boss I am not asking you to convince me. I am asking for proof. A credible source to back your claim. I hope you understand what those words mean.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:16 pm

unrave wrote:

Please do not bring in irrelevant arguments.


How is it irrelevant? It goes to the very heart of your argument for proof. When something is given, you don't accept, no matter what!

With all due respect, for purposes of analogy, go back and read what I have written about an ostrich.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:22 pm

Prabhu was more like a CEO of the Ministry than a politician who also carried along the interests of his political party.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 393931.ece
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:26 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:

Please do not bring in irrelevant arguments.


How is it irrelevant? It goes to the very heart of your argument for proof. When something is given, you don't accept, no matter what!

With all due respect, for purposes of analogy, go back and read what I have written about an ostrich.


It is irrelevant because my question is only about your claim of Mr Swami suing at the behest of some airline. Provide a source to back your claim. That has been my only demand from the beginning of this argument.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:26 pm

Subramanian Swamy moves High Court seeking direction to CBI, ED to file status report in AirAsia case

The application was filed in a pending petition by Swamy challenging the flying licences granted to AirAsia India and Vistara.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/65026990.cms?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:28 pm

Merge Jet Airways with Air India: Subramanian Swamy

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 941993.ece
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:29 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Subramanian Swamy moves High Court seeking direction to CBI, ED to file status report in AirAsia case

The application was filed in a pending petition by Swamy challenging the flying licences granted to AirAsia India and Vistara.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/65026990.cms?


Whom did he sue at the behest of?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:32 pm

unrave wrote:
. That has been my only demand from the beginning of this argument.


And my point is why bother. You haven't accepted the point about the Govt blatantly favoring Spicejet to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. You will never accept anything that's against the current government or its legislators and that includes SS.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:37 pm

edealinfo wrote:
unrave wrote:
. That has been my only demand from the beginning of this argument.


And my point is why bother. You haven't accepted the point about the Govt blatantly favoring Spicejet to the detriment of other carriers and the Indian public. You will never accept anything that's against the current government or its legislators.

Saar, we are not arguing here about my love for the current government.
Instead of trying so very hard to cover up your tracks, you can do the very simple thing of providing a source which tells us more about Swami filing those cases at the behest of a particular airline
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:12 pm

Wow awe we really arguing about the slot process. Unrave if you feel the process was great and didn’t favor Spice ok. But I think it is pretty clear that many many people think it was favoritism to Spice. The fact that the GOI made up the rules as it went along opened the door for this. IATA said as much. It is totally fair to question what happen that is what makes democracies stronger. Bullying people to shut up doesn’t make things better. Also this is not a court, it is a discussion. Please explain why you thought the process was fair and above favoritism (totally normal discussion here on anet outside the India forums). I think the GOI favored NG and Spice (just at different times). Booth were wrong. The favoritism to NG actually made Jet worse. Let’s see what Spice does with their favor. But in the end, this type of thing never works out.

Vistara really lost out from a golden opportunity. If people here believe it was because they are meek, please. They didn’t because they had no confidence in keeping the slots. They quietly complained but that is it. Why not a huge stink? Ponder that. They dare not go against the GOI especially after the big win. Sad really.

And for the record, I think the current govt has done a lot of good things. Even with the Jet/Spice thing, I still think they have been good for Indian aviation. Jet needed to reform and NG didn’t. It failed because of him and not because of the GOI. Also the GOI resisting the ME3 has been a game changer for indian aviation (compared to the old govt).
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:22 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Unrave if you feel the process was great and didn’t favor Spice ok. But I think it is pretty clear that many many people think it was favoritism to Spice. The fact that the GOI made up the rules as it went along opened the door for this. IATA said as much. It is totally fair to question what happen that is what makes democracy’s stronger. Bullying people to shut up doesn’t make things better. Also this is not a court, it is a discussion. Please explain why you thought the process was fair and above favoritism (totally normal discussion here on anet outside the India forums). I think the GOI favored NG and Spice (just at different times). Booth were wrong. The favoritism to NG actually made Jet worse. Let’s see what Spice does with their favor. But in the end, this type of thing never works out.

Vistara really lost out from a golden opportunity. If people here believe it was because they are meek, please. They didn’t because they had no confidence in keeping the slots. They quietly complained but that is it. Why not a huge stink? Ponder that. They dare not go against the GOI especially after the big win. Sad really.

And for the record, I think the current govt has done a lot of good things. Even with the Jet/Spice thing, I still think they have been good for Indian aviation. Jet needed to reform and NG didn’t. It failed because of him and not because of the GOI. Also the GOI resisting the ME3 has been a game changer for indian aviation (compared to the old govt).


Ajay Singh is the man that coined the winning slogan for the PM's previous election campaign. A man so close to the establishment will obviously get to pull a lot of strings. The government's policy of "bring new planes, get Jet Airways' slots" had two main beneficiaries: SpiceJet AND IndiGo. GoI's actions met the main objective of quickly recovering the capacity lost by way of 9W's folding. The way it was achieved and the fact that SG was an outsized beneficiary would always leave the process suspect of favouritism. So no, I can in no way argue that GoI's action were completely fair and free of favouritism. The skeletons will tumble out of the cupboard in course of time.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:25 pm

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Unrave if you feel the process was great and didn’t favor Spice ok. But I think it is pretty clear that many many people think it was favoritism to Spice. The fact that the GOI made up the rules as it went along opened the door for this. IATA said as much. It is totally fair to question what happen that is what makes democracy’s stronger. Bullying people to shut up doesn’t make things better. Also this is not a court, it is a discussion. Please explain why you thought the process was fair and above favoritism (totally normal discussion here on anet outside the India forums). I think the GOI favored NG and Spice (just at different times). Booth were wrong. The favoritism to NG actually made Jet worse. Let’s see what Spice does with their favor. But in the end, this type of thing never works out.

Vistara really lost out from a golden opportunity. If people here believe it was because they are meek, please. They didn’t because they had no confidence in keeping the slots. They quietly complained but that is it. Why not a huge stink? Ponder that. They dare not go against the GOI especially after the big win. Sad really.

And for the record, I think the current govt has done a lot of good things. Even with the Jet/Spice thing, I still think they have been good for Indian aviation. Jet needed to reform and NG didn’t. It failed because of him and not because of the GOI. Also the GOI resisting the ME3 has been a game changer for indian aviation (compared to the old govt).


Ajay Singh is the man that coined the winning slogan for the PM's previous election campaign. A man so close to the establishment will obviously get to pull a lot of strings. The government's policy of "bring new planes, get Jet Airways' slots" had two main beneficiaries: SpiceJet AND IndiGo. GoI's actions met the main objective of quickly recovering the capacity lost by way of 9W's folding. The way it was achieved and the fact that SG was an outsized beneficiary would always leave the process suspect of favouritism. So no, I can in no way argue that GoI's action were completely fair and free of favouritism. The skeletons will tumble out of the cupboard in course of time.


Fair enough, well said
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1494
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:53 pm

I had no idea that Indigo pulled flights out from Muscat. Were these routes disconnected to grab Jet's slots?

"Indigo has stopped flying on the Muscat-Kochi route since April 1 and Calicut-Muscat route from 2017. It has also stopped flying on the Muscat-Ahmedabad sector from March.

Oman Air has suspended its operations to many cities in the world including Mumbai in India as part of the Public Authority for Civil Aviation directives to halt operations of Boeing 737 Max aircraft.

"https://muscatdaily.com/Archive/Oman/Rising-fares-on-India-Oman-sector-hit-travellers-hard-5ens
 
avier
Posts: 868
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:27 am

edealinfo wrote:
Oman Air has suspended its operations to many cities in the world including Mumbai in India as part of the Public Authority for Civil Aviation directives to halt operations of Boeing 737 Max aircraft.


Oman Air used to operate 2-3 daily flights using 737's on BOM-MCT. It's now 2 daily on A330's.
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:07 pm

vadodara wrote:
<Both NG and Ajay Singh used GOI favoritism to get ahead.>

Ajay Singh actually confounded the airline prior to when the current govt came in power; if anything he got pushed out when the lines between politicians and business blurred!

Precisely. Maybe favoritism means getting pushed out of company one founded. They didnt teach me well, I guess ...

vadodara wrote:
The point is the Maran’s were the lawmakers and still couldn’t run a business they had usurped.

It does no matter for posters with an agenda.

-R
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aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:16 pm

edealinfo wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Perhaps I am missing something but anyone care to remind NG’s contributions to the airline industry?


NG created an airline which at one point was truly world class. (Quality dropped over the last several years but for a time the experience on it was outstanding)

Bijness was good until he started treating it as a Guju bijness would

And whats that supposed to mean?

Just because beloved Jet Airways failed, we start finding issues with ethnicity. First go after MoCA for ATQ flight, now this?

Besides, if he had started treating it as "a Guju bijness would" he would be far better off. As I suspect that you haven't done anything in India, suggest you look up the richest man in India. A surprise is awaits you.

-R
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CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:20 pm

aarbee wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Perhaps I am missing something but anyone care to remind NG’s contributions to the airline industry?


NG created an airline which at one point was truly world class. (Quality dropped over the last several years but for a time the experience on it was outstanding)

Bijness was good until he started treating it as a Guju bijness would

And whats that supposed to mean?

Just because beloved Jet Airways failed, we start finding issues with ethnicity. First go after MoCA for ATQ flight, now this?

Besides, if he had started treating it as "a Guju bijness would" he would be far better off. As I suspect that you haven't done anything in India, suggest you look up the richest man in India. A surprise is awaits you.

-R


I agree unclear what Gujju has anything to do with it and even if it is, we shouldn't be using ethnic stereotypes or whatever we want to call this.
Jet failed because of pure mismanagement and an over reliance on someone else saying it (be it EY or the GOI). It was being operated like it was someone else's money they were spending. That is not a business, it is AI.
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:27 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
No it was not directed at you.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I think some of the posts might have been taken to be more of an attack than they really were. So maybe I use the words wrongly, but when I or others use crony capitalism, I feel it just means influence (or a close relationship). If it was something illegal or involved cash payments, I would have said corruption. Spice seems to have a close relationship to the BJP and or Modi. I don't think there is any indication they did anything illegal.


When "crony capitalism" is mentioned there is there is some much of negative connotation to it and the way some posters have portrayed Ajay Singh/SpiceJet/GOI it reeks of corruption and inappropriate favoritism for incompetent entities.

Based on some reading I did over the weekend
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/t9wG ... d-man.html (Could be a PR job, but I'm sure it's not without facts)
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 784441.cms

I think the GOI couldn't have handled the situation any better and probably salvaged a undesirable situation.

But it SEEMS the way some people wanted is, GOI to call 1.3b people individually. GOI to
Hardeep Kaur --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Vipul Patel --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Mina Balasubramanium --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Sameer Pedakar--> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Ali Haider --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
just to argue their bias.


P.S. - Again I have NO connections nor I'm defending Ajay Singh.


Sorry you don't like the moniker Crony Capitalism. Don't know the meaning you were taught, but in the US we apply it to a a time in our history where Oligarchs dominated. You infer that these companies are incompetent but no one on this forum is saying that (the US examples of Crony capitalism from the past were some of our biggest industrialists - hardly incompetent). You infer it is corruption but most haven't said.

Sorry my NON-US education did not have any mention of crony capitalism. Whether you admit or not, crony capitalism in these forums has always been implied forms of corruption by the posters who wan to promote their agenda. I happened to look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism.

"Crony capitalism is an economy in which businesses thrive not as a result of risk, but rather as a return on money amassed through a nexus between a business class and the political class." Maybe I do not understand that statement also, because the nexus is out of the goodness of heart.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The more we clarify, the more you stick to your story on what we think. You think it SEEMS that people here want the GOI to talk to 1,2b people - how? From what? Who even hinted at that? You say you are not a defender of Ajay Singh, yet you get so upset that people say favoritism was involved (again no one says he is a bad manager). It is like you father, relative or mentor is being attacked.

The more and more you clarify in his forum about beloved Jet Airways shutdown, the more it revolves a GOI, Banks, Bureaucrats, Ajay Singh, SpiceJet, Indian democracy, in-competencies of other airlines, Indian law, and so on.
Following the various Indian aviation threads, the 2 Jet Airways thread, Non-Aviation India threads the picture drawn out to me is that Ajay Singh is some flunky who was rewarded with Spice Jet by GOI on being elected. I was stunned to find out his actual background. I don't get upset, but it is quite amusing to see the reaction when the truth comes out. If the discussion was more civil and not blaming AS in every 3rd post for beloved Jet's issue, nobody cared. The humor was intended as light-hearted satire portray the same.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Both NG and Ajay Singh used GOI favoritism to get ahead. True or false? Like I've said before, this is the business environment in India today. But it is not illegal. And not liking it doesn't mean people are trying to defame India. The truth is the truth.

Of course nobody it trying to defame India, by questioning it's democracy, comparing to NK, throwing a fit for beloved Jet Airways Lalaji's lookout notice, constantly implying business like SG is only afloat due to crony capitalism, blaming the laws because one doesn't not understand it, etc. etc.

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:30 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Interesting article on jet's bankruptcy with memorable statements including:

"So why didn’t SBI and other creditors act earlier? They probably never believed Goyal, a survivor of several tight corners in the last 25 years, was going to crash land this time. "

"As the bungling of Jet Airways shows, no insolvency law will do any good to a financial system that has too much respect for capitalists and too little for capitalism."

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 900042.cms

Where does it alluded to "survivor of several tight corners" ?
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aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:34 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The issue though is Spice probably is still hoping to get things for free (and they still very well might). So do they bid or keep counting on the GOI to deliver things on a silver platter. Oh the dilemma....

Ah of course, now we know why beloved Jet airways failed. :idea:

-R
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:36 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I had repeatedly said on this forums that lessors should move their aircraft out of India as the Indian court system....,....well is the Indian court system and you know exactly what that means

Oh are you implying they don't provide justice? They do not follow rule of law? Pray, I wonder what it is ?
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CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:11 pm

aarbee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
No it was not directed at you.



When "crony capitalism" is mentioned there is there is some much of negative connotation to it and the way some posters have portrayed Ajay Singh/SpiceJet/GOI it reeks of corruption and inappropriate favoritism for incompetent entities.

Based on some reading I did over the weekend
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/t9wG ... d-man.html (Could be a PR job, but I'm sure it's not without facts)
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 784441.cms

I think the GOI couldn't have handled the situation any better and probably salvaged a undesirable situation.

But it SEEMS the way some people wanted is, GOI to call 1.3b people individually. GOI to
Hardeep Kaur --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Vipul Patel --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Mina Balasubramanium --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Sameer Pedakar--> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
Ali Haider --> U want to buy SG --> NO :smile:
.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
just to argue their bias.


P.S. - Again I have NO connections nor I'm defending Ajay Singh.


Sorry you don't like the moniker Crony Capitalism. Don't know the meaning you were taught, but in the US we apply it to a a time in our history where Oligarchs dominated. You infer that these companies are incompetent but no one on this forum is saying that (the US examples of Crony capitalism from the past were some of our biggest industrialists - hardly incompetent). You infer it is corruption but most haven't said.

Sorry my NON-US education did not have any mention of crony capitalism. Whether you admit or not, crony capitalism in these forums has always been implied forms of corruption by the posters who wan to promote their agenda. I happened to look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism.

"Crony capitalism is an economy in which businesses thrive not as a result of risk, but rather as a return on money amassed through a nexus between a business class and the political class." Maybe I do not understand that statement also, because the nexus is out of the goodness of heart.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The more we clarify, the more you stick to your story on what we think. You think it SEEMS that people here want the GOI to talk to 1,2b people - how? From what? Who even hinted at that? You say you are not a defender of Ajay Singh, yet you get so upset that people say favoritism was involved (again no one says he is a bad manager). It is like you father, relative or mentor is being attacked.

The more and more you clarify in his forum about beloved Jet Airways shutdown, the more it revolves a GOI, Banks, Bureaucrats, Ajay Singh, SpiceJet, Indian democracy, in-competencies of other airlines, Indian law, and so on.
Following the various Indian aviation threads, the 2 Jet Airways thread, Non-Aviation India threads the picture drawn out to me is that Ajay Singh is some flunky who was rewarded with Spice Jet by GOI on being elected. I was stunned to find out his actual background. I don't get upset, but it is quite amusing to see the reaction when the truth comes out. If the discussion was more civil and not blaming AS in every 3rd post for beloved Jet's issue, nobody cared. The humor was intended as light-hearted satire portray the same.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Both NG and Ajay Singh used GOI favoritism to get ahead. True or false? Like I've said before, this is the business environment in India today. But it is not illegal. And not liking it doesn't mean people are trying to defame India. The truth is the truth.

Of course nobody it trying to defame India, by questioning it's democracy, comparing to NK, throwing a fit for beloved Jet Airways Lalaji's lookout notice, constantly implying business like SG is only afloat due to crony capitalism, blaming the laws because one doesn't not understand it, etc. etc.

-R


Aarbee - the definition of Crony capitalism you posted is exactly the meaning I mean - "Crony capitalism is an economy in which businesses thrive not as a result of risk, but rather as a return on money amassed through a nexus between a business class and the political class." This is exactly what happened to Jet and what we fear is happening with Spice. Remember how many have posted that Vistara didn't take more planes because they didn't trust they would have the slots long term but Spice did - so Spice didn't see Risk - per the definition. The only thing we are only talking about aviation examples and not the vernal economy of India. Notice the definition does not say corruption. I don't understand why you are so offended by this.

You keep saying "beloved jet" - I think most of the so called supporters of Jet have all said NG was a bad manager and killed Jet. So beloved? My posts are pretty clear and definitely not saying the company was this great aviation company. I did like their inflight product in J and liked that they had a partnership with Delta. So?

I feel like you extrapolate and infer things people are not saying. Also in your post above you conflate different points by many different people to make it look like everyone is saying ridiculous things. Fact is we are not.

The one thing I am saying and will continue to say is the Jet shutdown process (sale and IBC) are a joke. No clear rules, rules made up as we go along, the press not being able to say what will happen and even the head of SBI saying he doesn't know. Is it the end of the world. No but it definitely does not make India look great. That is my opinion and my right to say it. It is absolutely based on real facts as well. So unclear why you can't respect it as my view. Agree to disagree.
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:48 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Regardless of what the RP can do, I think the fate of Jet has already been sealed. Ajay Singh ain't going to preside over his company's collapse from getting 40 ex-Jet planes to fill in Jet's void and then having the rug pulled from under his feet.

Here we go again. Ajay Singh & beloved Jet Airways.

edealinfo wrote:
There is too much at stake here. Being close to the Government and toeing the Government line delivers results, as it always has, in Indian business history.

Oh so in the rest of the Utopian world being close to the government does not have benefits. Of course only in India that happens.

SpiceJet,Ajay Singh toeing the government line. Examples? Proofs? Or again some new allegations?!?
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