JOYA380B747
Posts: 773
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:31 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:52 am

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

You know that the traditional escape route is a bus trip to Nepal and to Antigua

There is passport control while crossing Nepal border by road.


There is no mandatory passport control/customs check FOR INDIANS or NEPALIS at any entry/exit point between India and Nepal. It is only for citizens of other countries. Then again if a foreigner looks & speaks Hindi, or Nepali, border police assumes you are Indian/Nepali. There is not even any ID checks. I have been traveling across India-Nepal borders every other month since 2007. With vehicle permits done at the border which takes less than 30 mins, you can literally drive across with nobody asking a thing, other than occasional luggage check by Nepali police (esp if you are traveling heavy).
Last edited by JOYA380B747 on Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:57 am

DLPMMM wrote:

“It is better to be silent and assumed a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.”


Ouch....you kind of outed yourself.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:24 am

Status update To Aviation Secretary from SBI Chairman:

1. Jet’s lenders reluctant to take large loan haircut of 80%.

2. Chances of lenders approving a restructuring package without a government nudge are low.

3. Lenders are vary of dealing with Jet because of all the investigations.

4. Hindujas know there are no other bidders so are using it as leverage and demanding fresh loans from banks to Jet for their investment.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 604954.cms
 
sibibom
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:09 am

DLPMMM wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

I guess India just kissed goodbye to a potential investment in Jet by the Hindujas. I had long been arguing on this forum that potential investors in Jet are being sent a message and the message is on the wall.

At least by the end of this week we would know whether Jet will fly again or not. Guess which way the winds are blowing on this.


Jet is dead and has been for quite a while now, even when they were operating.

You and your friend Cali have repeatedly and vociferously aired fantastical scenarios that are without any basis in modern business, economics, or political science, and very little basis in fact.

There are no assets left worth buying at Jet, even if the banks take a 99% haircut. The unsecured creditors and employees are owed too much to make anything work.

I don’t give a hoot about NG one way or the other. I have flown Jet several times and enjoyed it, especially in F to LHR. I have also flown Spice, Indigo, Kingfisher, Air Deccan...heck, I even took the Shitabdi Express a few times.

You guys are entirely too wrapped up in this and have turned it into some sort of soap opera in your heads...the business world does not work like a soap opera.

Airlines come and go, businessmen come and go, businesses come and go.

All your fantastical scenarios and suppositions of facts make you look like fools.

“It is better to be silent and assumed a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.”


Agreed! Companies come and go, nothing is permanent except perhaps the queen of England who seems will never die(lizard person alert!).

Jet was a lovely product a decade back, lately, its been terrible and even Air India was a better experience.

Far more importantly as a business it was heading to doom for years now. How long can you continue to have higher cost base, highest coast per seat, excess and overpaid pilots and staff, provide more amenities than competitors and yet can't charge more?

Last September onwards it became clear they wouldn't be able to meet loan obligations due very soon, while a catastrophic storm of devalued rupee and rising oil price was looming. Hell even big bully was on the verge of loss that quarter. I said it out loud along with a few other people here, we were called Indigo's agents ...as if we drove the company to bankruptcy!

Along with bad business practices, there seems to be systematic looting of assets towards the end, which Naresh Goyal and Vinay Dube need to explain. How did the owned planes suddenly become leased to random shell companies? Where did the cash from sale and leaseback of MAXs go? Jet is a publically traded company, the public and shareholders deserve to know the truth...
Last edited by sibibom on Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2099
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:13 am

edealinfo wrote:
I guess India just kissed goodbye to a potential investment in Jet by the Hindujas. I had long been arguing on this forum that potential investors in Jet are being sent a message and the message is on the wall.


Rule#1 of participating in these forums: Be aware that 99.99% of people in actual power don't read these forums
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:15 am

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
I guess India just kissed goodbye to a potential investment in Jet by the Hindujas. I had long been arguing on this forum that potential investors in Jet are being sent a message and the message is on the wall.


Rule#1 of participating in these forums: Be aware that 99.99% of people in actual power don't read these forums


Agreed. But, people in power are not blind. They too can independently see the writing on the wall.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:32 am

SpiceJet is "considering" taking over Jet's widebodies, SpiceJet Chairman said to the media at a conference in South Korea. He is very savvy at getting attention in the media, so I am unclear if he is serious or just made the statement for free publicity.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1067
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:38 am

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Like Pan Am and TWA fan-boys, you are free to purchase Jet Airways memorablia.

Perhaps, there might be even NG bobble-heads!


Sticks and stones and mocking comments rather than an intellectual rebuttal. Cool...

Btw, things actually worked out mostly fine for me: DL JFK-BOM (nonstop with suites in J - mom and bro already booked and excited), VS new LHR-BOM (DL partner and previously had great onboard service in J between LHR-BOM), KL increases AMS-BOM with better timings (DL partner - I'm on this flight in DEC on a new 789). So I'm good. Only my mom isn't super happy because she lost the 9:30am and 1pm (or what ever it was) BOM-LHR flights that connect to evening JFK flights. She hates hates hates leaving BOM after 10pm. Oh well, she will have to deal. Option lost (but hey who needs timing options when Indigo might launch BOM-IST-LGW LCC flight on a 737).


Issue is not if the option worked for you or you liked it. Issue is 9W never made any money in the past decade.

It is the expectation that somehow it was SBI’s job to bail them out.

And the election results didn’t really help his cause even if the fraudsters won (Chidambaram, Rajah, Maran’s and so on).


Do you even read people’s post. First I am not saying the banks should bail out Jet. I am saying the banks should bail themselves out by selling the pieces of Jet. But it is clear the banks want to get back zero. It has clearly been decided that Spice will get the biggest chunk for free. That is why there is no piecemeal sell off like Air Berlin.

My point on it worked out for me was messing Jet dying in the end didn’t affect me. To your point my family does one to two trips to india a year. We just want high quality FSC with nice J and sky team miles. And fortunately VS, DL, KL all came through for BOM-US travelers. So from a selfish pov I am fine. From a fan of Indian aviation and Indian economic growth I still feel bad. Foreign carriers only increased their market share even more. In a week we’ll start hearing increase seats to EK mantra.
 
bennett123
Posts: 8852
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:46 am

I suspect NG is still planning a comeback.

IMO, the following will put a stop to that;

1. That most of the Jet fleet are now flying for another airline.

2. Will Banks provide capital after taking a haircut.

3. Will staff, particularly pilots risk not getting paid.

4. Will suppliers risk not getting paid.

5. Will Leasors take the risk, particularly given the surge in demand for B737NG.

6. Will the GOI risk another meltdown.

7. Will people buy tickets on Jet mk2.

Hopefully, NG will not reappear as an airline operator.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:52 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
. In a week we’ll start hearing increase seats to EK mantra.


Is this just a hunch because of the new Government or Minister? The policy so far has to contain DXB-India capacity despite 100% utilization (pre-Jet collapse) because a) Indian carriers wanted capacity-limited for higher yields, and b) Indian carriers couldn't get commercially viable slots at DXB.

However, now that EK has Spicejet are friends and they both have a code-share agreement, maybe Government policy would shift?
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:01 am

bennett123 wrote:
I suspect NG is still planning a comeback.

IMO, the following will put a stop to that;

1. That most of the Jet fleet are now flying for another airline.

2. Will Banks provide capital after taking a haircut.

3. Will staff, particularly pilots risk not getting paid.

4. Will suppliers risk not getting paid.

5. Will Leasors take the risk, particularly given the surge in demand for B737NG.

6. Will the GOI risk another meltdown.

7. Will people buy tickets on Jet mk2.

Hopefully, NG will not reappear as an airline operator.


All this is moot. An airline backed by Etihad, NIIF, Mudabla (Abu Dhabi sovereign fund) and the Hindujas could hypothetically take off. However, right now, there are 2 sticky points with the Hindujas signing on to the consortium (the consortium will be non existent if the Hindujas are not-in, so they are the key party at this point in time).

1. The Hindujas want banks to take a big haircut (80% to 90%) which Indian banks can't swallow because the media and public will project it as crony capitalism. [It is not logical because the alternative is that the bank gets close to 0% if Jet is dragged through the formal bankruptcy process, which could drag on for years -- by then the public anger would have subsided and Jet would have long been forgotten so you can see why the banks prefer that approach]

2. The numerous investigations initiated against Jet after it went belly up is intended to serve a message to potential buyers that a) they would be buying into a snake pit and b) they might end up in the snake pit .

Whether Hindujas step in or bail out will be known by May 10 at the very latest. So, we have about a week to go before we know one way or the other.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2261
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
Jet is dead


Go celebrate.

You could ignore to read posts by the usual suspects you don't like or even add to foe list so posts from those users won't be visible.

This is a forum on the internet, not a grand jury testimony to state only facts under oath. Why troll others with dissenting opinions.


You can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.

People here are making up far fetched fantasy scenarios that are completely unsupported or even directly in conflict with fact.

People with no practical working knowledge of business, finance, law, or banking are making proclamations of theoretical solutions that are ludicrous.

People decry “crony capitalism” yet want state owned institutions to practice exactly that in reconstituting Jet by giving special deals to hand picked privileged bidders in closed door negotiations.

Such posts are not conducive to rational discussions.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:02 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
You can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.
People here are making up far fetched fantasy scenarios that are completely unsupported or even directly in conflict with fact.
People with no practical working knowledge of business, finance, law, or banking are making proclamations of theoretical solutions that are ludicrous.
People decry “crony capitalism” yet want state owned institutions to practice exactly that in reconstituting Jet by giving special deals to hand picked privileged bidders in closed door negotiations.
Such posts are not conducive to rational discussions.


Do you even realize that everything in your post above is innuendo....and even that would would be generous. If I were to be frank, I would call that blah, blah, blah.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 17665
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:08 pm

edealinfo wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I suspect NG is still planning a comeback.

IMO, the following will put a stop to that;

1. That most of the Jet fleet are now flying for another airline.

2. Will Banks provide capital after taking a haircut.

3. Will staff, particularly pilots risk not getting paid.

4. Will suppliers risk not getting paid.

5. Will Leasors take the risk, particularly given the surge in demand for B737NG.

6. Will the GOI risk another meltdown.

7. Will people buy tickets on Jet mk2.

Hopefully, NG will not reappear as an airline operator.


All this is moot. An airline backed by Etihad, NIIF, Mudabla (Abu Dhabi sovereign fund) and the Hindujas could hypothetically take off. However, right now, there are 2 sticky points with the Hindujas signing on to the consortium (the consortium will be non existent if the Hindujas are not-in, so they are the key party at this point in time).

1. The Hindujas want banks to take a big haircut (80% to 90%) which Indian banks can't swallow because the media and public will project it as crony capitalism. [It is not logical because the alternative is that the bank gets close to 0% if Jet is dragged through the formal bankruptcy process, which could drag on for years -- by then the public anger would have subsided and Jet would have long been forgotten so you can see why the banks prefer that approach]

2. The numerous investigations initiated against Jet after it went belly up is intended to serve a message to potential buyers that a) they would be buying into a snake pit and b) they might end up in the snake pit .

Whether Hindujas step in or bail out will be known by May 10 at the very latest. So, we have about a week to go before we know one way or the other.

If the buyer insists on a haircut, take it if it is the highest offer.

As to it being a snake pit, probably. As I've stated before, India must reform their insolvency and bankruptcy laws.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2261
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:25 pm

lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I suspect NG is still planning a comeback.

IMO, the following will put a stop to that;

1. That most of the Jet fleet are now flying for another airline.

2. Will Banks provide capital after taking a haircut.

3. Will staff, particularly pilots risk not getting paid.

4. Will suppliers risk not getting paid.

5. Will Leasors take the risk, particularly given the surge in demand for B737NG.

6. Will the GOI risk another meltdown.

7. Will people buy tickets on Jet mk2.

Hopefully, NG will not reappear as an airline operator.


All this is moot. An airline backed by Etihad, NIIF, Mudabla (Abu Dhabi sovereign fund) and the Hindujas could hypothetically take off. However, right now, there are 2 sticky points with the Hindujas signing on to the consortium (the consortium will be non existent if the Hindujas are not-in, so they are the key party at this point in time).

1. The Hindujas want banks to take a big haircut (80% to 90%) which Indian banks can't swallow because the media and public will project it as crony capitalism. [It is not logical because the alternative is that the bank gets close to 0% if Jet is dragged through the formal bankruptcy process, which could drag on for years -- by then the public anger would have subsided and Jet would have long been forgotten so you can see why the banks prefer that approach]

2. The numerous investigations initiated against Jet after it went belly up is intended to serve a message to potential buyers that a) they would be buying into a snake pit and b) they might end up in the snake pit .

Whether Hindujas step in or bail out will be known by May 10 at the very latest. So, we have about a week to go before we know one way or the other.

If the buyer insists on a haircut, take it if it is the highest offer.

As to it being a snake pit, probably. As I've stated before, India must reform their insolvency and bankruptcy laws.

Lightsaber


That is assuming that edealinfo is factually correct that SBI would get close to 0% in liquidation.

I do not personally believe that edealinfo knows the liquidation value of the secured assets held by SBI, especially given the likely cross collateralization among the loan agreements.

Nor does edealinfo have any idea of additional terms that may be a part of a proposal by an investor that would increase the risk of the banks by involving increase lending or decreased security on held collateral.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 17665
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:12 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

All this is moot. An airline backed by Etihad, NIIF, Mudabla (Abu Dhabi sovereign fund) and the Hindujas could hypothetically take off. However, right now, there are 2 sticky points with the Hindujas signing on to the consortium (the consortium will be non existent if the Hindujas are not-in, so they are the key party at this point in time).

1. The Hindujas want banks to take a big haircut (80% to 90%) which Indian banks can't swallow because the media and public will project it as crony capitalism. [It is not logical because the alternative is that the bank gets close to 0% if Jet is dragged through the formal bankruptcy process, which could drag on for years -- by then the public anger would have subsided and Jet would have long been forgotten so you can see why the banks prefer that approach]

2. The numerous investigations initiated against Jet after it went belly up is intended to serve a message to potential buyers that a) they would be buying into a snake pit and b) they might end up in the snake pit .

Whether Hindujas step in or bail out will be known by May 10 at the very latest. So, we have about a week to go before we know one way or the other.

If the buyer insists on a haircut, take it if it is the highest offer.

As to it being a snake pit, probably. As I've stated before, India must reform their insolvency and bankruptcy laws.

Lightsaber


That is assuming that edealinfo is factually correct that SBI would get close to 0% in liquidation.

I do not personally believe that edealinfo knows the liquidation value of the secured assets held by SBI, especially given the likely cross collateralization among the loan agreements.

Nor does edealinfo have any idea of additional terms that may be a part of a proposal by an investor that would increase the risk of the banks by involving increase lending or decreased security on held collateral.

If there is more value in liquidation, that is the highest offer. ;)

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
alfa164
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:28 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I love that now on this thread if you dare take sympathy on NG (even though you might have railed against him in the past), you are a fanboy. Basically if your view isn’t that SpiceJet is a great airline, their leader was brilliant in grabbing Jet’s BOM slots and India is on the cusp of a golden period of aviation then you are persona non grata or a foreigner (don’t know which is worse here anymore). Jeez guys. Why is it so annoying to you that some of us liked flying Jet. I am totally not annoyed that you hated Jet. Jet offered me good service and tons of options from BOM-EU plus a sky team connection. To each their own. I am also not a fanboy nor think Jet was a well run airline. I just lament that there is no airline in india today that is well enough run that they can even come close to take the place on Jet. Plus the crony capitalism of both Jet and Spice is What hurts indian aviation IMHO. Look at responses above. No one has actually built a case as to why Spice is a great airline and not benefitting from favoritism. If the fact that we are not based in India your strongest counter point, well...


:checkmark: I am saddened because Jet Airways will always be remembered as the carrier who brought First-World air travel to a Third-World nation. Unfortunately, that nation's government for decades stubbornly stuck-by supporting its own mediocre national carrier - much to the disadvantage of others - and gave preference and economic support to it - again, undercutting the opportunities non-AI airlines might have.

When cheap, low-cost (and, let's face it: low-comfort) airlines entered the fracas, the GOI seemed to open the door for them - unlike what had happened previously. And travelers don't seem to care whether they have First-world or a Third-World experience; they want cheap prices. Something had to give.

The same thing has happened before, in many other places: witness Braniff... and PanAm... Varig... and Canadian Airlines. Too bad cheap prices (and government interference and/or indifference) reduce the flying experience to the lowest common denominator.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
vadodara
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:36 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
[My point on it worked out for me was messing Jet dying in the end didn’t affect me. To your point my family does one to two trips to india a year. We just want high quality FSC with nice J and sky team miles. And fortunately VS, DL, KL all came through for BOM-US travelers. So from a selfish pov I am fine. From a fan of Indian aviation and Indian economic growth I still feel bad. Foreign carriers only increased their market share even more. In a week we’ll start hearing increase seats to EK mantra.


Sorry bud, it is about markets. If there are enough people willing to pay a premium from JFK to BOM someone will be able to start and sustain a flight. In case not, then your family may have to take likes of EK, LH or BA. Atleast your family has a choice.

For most Indians, they were under the tyranny imposed on them between AI/9W. On top, the tax payers had to bail both of them out on a regular basis. One is dead; hopefully the other is cremated soon.

Let's see where the growth of Indian market's takes aviation to. Not my and your job to decide the winners.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7070
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:20 am

DLPMMM wrote:
...
That is assuming that edealinfo is factually correct that SBI would get close to 0% in liquidation.

I do not personally believe that edealinfo knows the liquidation value of the secured assets held by SBI, especially given the likely cross collateralization among the loan agreements.

Nor does edealinfo have any idea of additional terms that may be a part of a proposal by an investor that would increase the risk of the banks by involving increase lending or decreased security on held collateral.


There is a higher chance that Goyal makes money on this deal thru repoed 77Ws than any of the Indian PSBs.

ZERO% recovery by Indian banks is given, hence the opinion that Indian taxpayers already bailout 9W. SBI chairman is on tape saying he wouldn't be discussing about 1500 Crs write-off if this was any other client.

Note: All my posts are just opinions.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1067
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:55 am

DLPMMM wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
Jet is dead


Go celebrate.

You could ignore to read posts by the usual suspects you don't like or even add to foe list so posts from those users won't be visible.

This is a forum on the internet, not a grand jury testimony to state only facts under oath. Why troll others with dissenting opinions.


You can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.

People here are making up far fetched fantasy scenarios that are completely unsupported or even directly in conflict with fact.

People with no practical working knowledge of business, finance, law, or banking are making proclamations of theoretical solutions that are ludicrous.

People decry “crony capitalism” yet want state owned institutions to practice exactly that in reconstituting Jet by giving special deals to hand picked privileged bidders in closed door negotiations.

Such posts are not conducive to rational discussions.


Please show me one post where someone is saying to restructure and sell Jet to a particular buyer (let alone favorite). Saying to give things away for free to Spice is what you are referring to. We can debate if US/UK style bankruptcy laws are a form of a bailout, but it is not generally considered one. I have been clear that the banks should save their losses. Sell Jet liability free to a new owner. Let all the old owners lose out. How much clearly can I be? It is the Soice must get slots for free crowd that is the most adamant of outcome
 
avier
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:20 pm

Interesting how celebs/sportsmen/public figures are still regularly posting on social media of how they miss Jet.
https://twitter.com/republic/status/1135082681165701120?s=20

Also , a nice collage of Jet and its beneficiaries below it. Like a buffet their competitors feast on them.
Image
 
danipawa
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:42 pm

UKFLYER26 wrote:
Long time reader, first time poster, hope this is informative / allowed. Mods remove if not.

Jet Airways (Inc JetLite) 737 Fleet Update

Jet Registration / MSN / Status / New Registration

737-700 (1/4)

VT-SIZ - 33025 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYO

737-800 (32 (+4)/72)

VT-JGR - 34799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYA
VT-JBF - 35082 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYC
VT-JBD - 35099 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYD
VT-JBE - 35106 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYE
VT-JGQ - 34797 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYF
VT-JGP - 34798 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYG
VT-JFW - 42799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYH (Currently OE-IBY)
VT-JLE - 33555 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYI
VT-JGS - 34800 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYJ
VT-JGA - 30410 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYK
VT-JTC - 29685 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYM
VT-JFY - 42804 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYN (Currently OE-ICY)
VT-JFL - 39061 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYR

VT-JBM - 36817 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBV
VT-JBN - 36818 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBW
VT-JBP - 36819 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBY
VT-JGF - 29639 - To Jet2 as G-DRTI
VT-JGG - 29668 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZD
VT-JTE - 37743 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZE
VT-JTL - 37745 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZF
VT-JTM - 37746 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZG

VT-JGK - 32579 - Now N542RL - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JGE - 32663 - Now N855DM - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JBH - 35289 - Now OE-IBS - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JTD - 30734 - Now OE-IDC - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGT - 34801 - Now M-ABLZ - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBB - 36846 - Now N846AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBC - 36847 - Now N847AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBJ - 36551 - Now N551AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBK - 36553 - Now N553CG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGU - 34802 - Now M-ABMA - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JFX - 42800 - Now 2-JFXX - Unknown Future Operator

+ 4 737-800 to Vistara (Registrations / MSN's to be confirmed)

737-900 (1/6)

VT-JGC - 30412 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYL


Keep this update ! good job

Boeing 737 -8AL 39058 4462 VT-TGB Vistara posn 29may19 MAA-DEL with titl, Jet Airways cs ex VT-JFH
Boeing 737 -8AL 39053 4279 VT-TGA Vistara air-test at BOM 01jun19 with titl, Jet Airways cs
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2261
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:26 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Go celebrate.

You could ignore to read posts by the usual suspects you don't like or even add to foe list so posts from those users won't be visible.

This is a forum on the internet, not a grand jury testimony to state only facts under oath. Why troll others with dissenting opinions.


You can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.

People here are making up far fetched fantasy scenarios that are completely unsupported or even directly in conflict with fact.

People with no practical working knowledge of business, finance, law, or banking are making proclamations of theoretical solutions that are ludicrous.

People decry “crony capitalism” yet want state owned institutions to practice exactly that in reconstituting Jet by giving special deals to hand picked privileged bidders in closed door negotiations.

Such posts are not conducive to rational discussions.


Please show me one post where someone is saying to restructure and sell Jet to a particular buyer (let alone favorite). Saying to give things away for free to Spice is what you are referring to. We can debate if US/UK style bankruptcy laws are a form of a bailout, but it is not generally considered one. I have been clear that the banks should save their losses. Sell Jet liability free to a new owner. Let all the old owners lose out. How much clearly can I be? It is the Soice must get slots for free crowd that is the most adamant of outcome


But the banks don’t have the right to sell Jet debt free unless the banks also want to spend millions and millions of dollars paying off the unsecured creditors.

That is my point about ludicrous schemes from people with no idea about business, banking, law, or bankruptcy.

So why would the banks want to spend so much additional money while taking an additional 90% + haircut?

I liked Jet a lot...but they are now dead and worthless as an investment vehicle.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:34 pm

UKFLYER26 wrote:
Long time reader, first time poster, hope this is informative / allowed. Mods remove if not.

Jet Airways (Inc JetLite) 737 Fleet Update

Jet Registration / MSN / Status / New Registration

737-700 (1/4)

VT-SIZ - 33025 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYO

737-800 (32 (+4)/72)

VT-JGR - 34799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYA
VT-JBF - 35082 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYC
VT-JBD - 35099 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYD
VT-JBE - 35106 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYE
VT-JGQ - 34797 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYF
VT-JGP - 34798 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYG
VT-JFW - 42799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYH (Currently OE-IBY)
VT-JLE - 33555 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYI
VT-JGS - 34800 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYJ
VT-JGA - 30410 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYK
VT-JTC - 29685 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYM
VT-JFY - 42804 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYN (Currently OE-ICY)
VT-JFL - 39061 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYR

VT-JBM - 36817 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBV
VT-JBN - 36818 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBW
VT-JBP - 36819 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBY
VT-JGF - 29639 - To Jet2 as G-DRTI
VT-JGG - 29668 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZD
VT-JTE - 37743 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZE
VT-JTL - 37745 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZF
VT-JTM - 37746 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZG

VT-JGK - 32579 - Now N542RL - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JGE - 32663 - Now N855DM - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JBH - 35289 - Now OE-IBS - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JTD - 30734 - Now OE-IDC - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGT - 34801 - Now M-ABLZ - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBB - 36846 - Now N846AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBC - 36847 - Now N847AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBJ - 36551 - Now N551AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBK - 36553 - Now N553CG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGU - 34802 - Now M-ABMA - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JFX - 42800 - Now 2-JFXX - Unknown Future Operator

+ 4 737-800 to Vistara (Registrations / MSN's to be confirmed)

737-900 (1/6)

VT-JGC - 30412 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYL

An exceptionally informative first post. Please keep us informed.
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lutfi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:01 am

alfa164 wrote:

When cheap, low-cost (and, let's face it: low-comfort) airlines entered the fracas, the GOI seemed to open the door for them - unlike what had happened previously. And travelers don't seem to care whether they have First-world or a Third-World experience; they want cheap prices. Something had to give.

The same thing has happened before, in many other places: witness Braniff... and PanAm... Varig... and Canadian Airlines. Too bad cheap prices (and government interference and/or indifference) reduce the flying experience to the lowest common denominator.


However, this is true in every large domestic market. Japan, US, EU, Indonesia, Australia, Canada. For short haul flights, schedule and price win. China at the moment is the exception due to government regulation.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
UKFLYER26 wrote:
Long time reader, first time poster, hope this is informative / allowed. Mods remove if not.

Jet Airways (Inc JetLite) 737 Fleet Update

Jet Registration / MSN / Status / New Registration

737-700 (1/4)

VT-SIZ - 33025 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYO

737-800 (32 (+4)/72)

VT-JGR - 34799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYA
VT-JBF - 35082 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYC
VT-JBD - 35099 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYD
VT-JBE - 35106 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYE
VT-JGQ - 34797 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYF
VT-JGP - 34798 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYG
VT-JFW - 42799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYH (Currently OE-IBY)
VT-JLE - 33555 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYI
VT-JGS - 34800 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYJ
VT-JGA - 30410 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYK
VT-JTC - 29685 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYM
VT-JFY - 42804 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYN (Currently OE-ICY)
VT-JFL - 39061 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYR

VT-JBM - 36817 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBV
VT-JBN - 36818 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBW
VT-JBP - 36819 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBY
VT-JGF - 29639 - To Jet2 as G-DRTI
VT-JGG - 29668 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZD
VT-JTE - 37743 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZE
VT-JTL - 37745 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZF
VT-JTM - 37746 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZG

VT-JGK - 32579 - Now N542RL - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JGE - 32663 - Now N855DM - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JBH - 35289 - Now OE-IBS - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JTD - 30734 - Now OE-IDC - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGT - 34801 - Now M-ABLZ - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBB - 36846 - Now N846AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBC - 36847 - Now N847AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBJ - 36551 - Now N551AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBK - 36553 - Now N553CG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGU - 34802 - Now M-ABMA - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JFX - 42800 - Now 2-JFXX - Unknown Future Operator

+ 4 737-800 to Vistara (Registrations / MSN's to be confirmed)

737-900 (1/6)

VT-JGC - 30412 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYL

An exceptionally informative first post. Please keep us informed.

UKFler26, fo I interpret this correctly that 39 of Jet's 737NGs were still looking for a new operator (when you posted, I see several were taken up since).

If my math is right, that means 26 of Jet's 737s still need to find someone willing to pay. No wonder SpiceJet could grow so quickly.

I'm under the impression it typically takes about 2 years to place aircraft at market value. (Operators pay a premium for faster delivery, leasing companies must discount to place faster). Huh.. I actually expected more to have found a home. Interesting surplus of aircraft.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:54 am

lightsaber wrote:
I'm under the impression it typically takes about 2 years to place aircraft at market value. (Operators pay a premium for faster delivery, leasing companies must discount to place faster). Huh.. I actually expected more to have found a home. Interesting surplus of aircraft.

Lightsaber


1. Wouldn't the urgent replacements for MAX offset the short term discount?

2. Shouldn't Vistara move more strongly to acquire more 737s? There are available aircraft, they have already decided to operate 737, they have enough funds or can have easy access to funds, and ex-Jet employees are a dime a dozen at this point in time. They had anyway planned on acquiring Jet in Oct/Nov 2018 (which means all the planning was already completed) so why not take steps to acquire the equivalent of 20% of Jet's fleet (that would be about 20 aircraft rather than just the 10 that they have taken on). Having more domestic capacity will also help feed capacity towards their international plans, Besides some of the 737s or A320s could even be used for some east asian and gulf routes.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:27 am

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I'm under the impression it typically takes about 2 years to place aircraft at market value. (Operators pay a premium for faster delivery, leasing companies must discount to place faster). Huh.. I actually expected more to have found a home. Interesting surplus of aircraft.

Lightsaber


1. Wouldn't the urgent replacements for MAX offset the short term discount?

2. Shouldn't Vistara move more strongly to acquire more 737s? There are available aircraft, they have already decided to operate 737, they have enough funds or can have easy access to funds, and ex-Jet employees are a dime a dozen at this point in time. They had anyway planned on acquiring Jet in Oct/Nov 2018 (which means all the planning was already completed) so why not take steps to acquire the equivalent of 20% of Jet's fleet (that would be about 20 aircraft rather than just the 10 that they have taken on). Having more domestic capacity will also help feed capacity towards their international plans, Besides some of the 737s or A320s could even be used for some east asian and gulf routes.

1. I believe we are in surplus of narrowbody aircraft. Otherwise all of Jet's aircraft would have found homes quicker. There is also a recognition that it is time to move to New aircraft for high utilization.

I haven't seen evidence of any spike in value of A320CEOs or 737NGs. So leasors must be happy SpiceJet picked them up.

2. Vistara did move too slow. Mostly with pilots. They are not a big winner from Jet's collapse. Oh well.

I find it facinating such a large block of Jet's 737s haven't found a home. I doubt SpiceJet could afford to take all of the block remaining.

Lightsaber
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avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:05 am

lightsaber wrote:

I find it facinating such a large block of Jet's 737s haven't found a home. I doubt SpiceJet could afford to take all of the block remaining.


Spicejet have been very vocal about their love for the MAX. They wanted to replace the NG's soon as they estimate cost savings of 20% when using MAX in the Indian cost environment. This however was stated before the MAX debacle. I'm sure if MAX issues are sorted they will progressively get rid of all the NG's over the next 2-3yrs or so, even the 9W ones. Hence the very short leases on the latter.
It would put them at a cost disadvantage if they didn't do that, when their biggest rival (6E) is inducting new NEO's (including the very efficient 321neos) every week.
GoAir has similar plans too regarding their CEO's, with their only worry probably being that their older planes shouldn't be picked by and aid their rivals like IndiGo and AirAsia India in their fleet expansion plans. Hence they are trying to directly place their older fleet with other airlines like the ones in Vietnam and nearby regions and also Europe.
 
UKFLYER26
Posts: 41
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
UKFLYER26 wrote:
Long time reader, first time poster, hope this is informative / allowed. Mods remove if not.

Jet Airways (Inc JetLite) 737 Fleet Update

Jet Registration / MSN / Status / New Registration

737-700 (1/4)

VT-SIZ - 33025 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYO

737-800 (32 (+4)/72)

VT-JGR - 34799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYA
VT-JBF - 35082 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYC
VT-JBD - 35099 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYD
VT-JBE - 35106 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYE
VT-JGQ - 34797 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYF
VT-JGP - 34798 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYG
VT-JFW - 42799 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYH (Currently OE-IBY)
VT-JLE - 33555 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYI
VT-JGS - 34800 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYJ
VT-JGA - 30410 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYK
VT-JTC - 29685 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYM
VT-JFY - 42804 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYN (Currently OE-ICY)
VT-JFL - 39061 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYR

VT-JBM - 36817 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBV
VT-JBN - 36818 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBW
VT-JBP - 36819 - To Smart Avia as VQ-BBY
VT-JGF - 29639 - To Jet2 as G-DRTI
VT-JGG - 29668 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZD
VT-JTE - 37743 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZE
VT-JTL - 37745 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZF
VT-JTM - 37746 - To GOL Brazil as PR-GZG

VT-JGK - 32579 - Now N542RL - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JGE - 32663 - Now N855DM - Most Likely Cargo Conversion
VT-JBH - 35289 - Now OE-IBS - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JTD - 30734 - Now OE-IDC - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGT - 34801 - Now M-ABLZ - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBB - 36846 - Now N846AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBC - 36847 - Now N847AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBJ - 36551 - Now N551AG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JBK - 36553 - Now N553CG - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JGU - 34802 - Now M-ABMA - Unknown Future Operator
VT-JFX - 42800 - Now 2-JFXX - Unknown Future Operator

+ 4 737-800 to Vistara (Registrations / MSN's to be confirmed)

737-900 (1/6)

VT-JGC - 30412 - To SpiceJet as VT-SYL

An exceptionally informative first post. Please keep us informed.

UKFler26, fo I interpret this correctly that 39 of Jet's 737NGs were still looking for a new operator (when you posted, I see several were taken up since).

If my math is right, that means 26 of Jet's 737s still need to find someone willing to pay. No wonder SpiceJet could grow so quickly.

I'm under the impression it typically takes about 2 years to place aircraft at market value. (Operators pay a premium for faster delivery, leasing companies must discount to place faster). Huh.. I actually expected more to have found a home. Interesting surplus of aircraft.

Lightsaber


Thanks Lightsaber, working on an entire fleet update not just the 737s, hopefully get it posted later today.

SpiceJet reported that these 737 aircraft have been acquired on maximum 24 month leases so we can expect to see another jump in available frames in two years time. Find it interesting they have not acquired more of the -900’s, with the extra capacity over the -800 when there is so many slot restricted airports across India.

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/spicej ... 52037.html

Most of the movements in the Jet fleet have been with the 737’s so far as you’ll see later with the full fleet update.
 
76er
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:14 am

It appears KL has managed to shuffle some extra capacity towards BOM as of the coming winterseason:

AMS 11.50 – BOM 00.40 KL877 789 daily
BOM 02.30 – AMS 07.25 KL878 789 daily
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:33 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
But the banks don’t have the right to sell Jet debt free unless the banks also want to spend millions and millions of dollars paying off the unsecured creditors.

That is my point about ludicrous schemes from people with no idea about business, banking, law, or bankruptcy.

So why would the banks want to spend so much additional money while taking an additional 90% + haircut?

I liked Jet a lot...but they are now dead and worthless as an investment vehicle.


Ok

Only known assets with any value are 77Ws.
Lets take one 77W

First lien: Moorgate Trust $3 M (past due rentals)
Second lien: SBI - $2 M (working capital loan)
Unsecured vendor 1: GMR Airports $0.5 M (airport charges)
Unsecured vendor 2: Indian Oil Corporation $2M (ATF)
(Numbers are hypothetical, don't debate their validity)

Use your expertise and enlighten us commoners.

What is SBI'role in unwinding this mess? Is it the owner of Jet? Consultant? or someone's stooge to make sure Jet is dead.

The way I see it, it is just another creditor with lower seniority.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
If there is more value in liquidation, that is the highest offer. ;)

Lightsaber


That is hard to know. Some of we Westerners have been surprised at how this has unfolded, given the paradigms in bankruptcy/administration law which we understand. (To an American, the discussions about upcoming elections make no sense at all - the courts supervise bankruptcy, not politicians.)

There are reasons that liquidation is regarded as failure in the U.S. & Canada. But if there's no willingness for further private investment or mechanism to install a competent and honest executive team, there you go.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:24 pm

UKFLYER26 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
An exceptionally informative first post. Please keep us informed.

UKFler26, fo I interpret this correctly that 39 of Jet's 737NGs were still looking for a new operator (when you posted, I see several were taken up since).

If my math is right, that means 26 of Jet's 737s still need to find someone willing to pay. No wonder SpiceJet could grow so quickly.

I'm under the impression it typically takes about 2 years to place aircraft at market value. (Operators pay a premium for faster delivery, leasing companies must discount to place faster). Huh.. I actually expected more to have found a home. Interesting surplus of aircraft.

Lightsaber


Thanks Lightsaber, working on an entire fleet update not just the 737s, hopefully get it posted later today.

SpiceJet reported that these 737 aircraft have been acquired on maximum 24 month leases so we can expect to see another jump in available frames in two years time. Find it interesting they have not acquired more of the -900’s, with the extra capacity over the -800 when there is so many slot restricted airports across India.

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/spicej ... 52037.html

Most of the movements in the Jet fleet have been with the 737’s so far as you’ll see later with the full fleet update.

Thank you again. I hypothesize the -900s have just too many business class seats. I speculate that SpiceJet sees too much risk. Reconfiguring for less than 4 years of opperations makes no sense.

Keep posting.

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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:15 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Aarbee wrote: "Again this sounds too petty to me. For once government, having faced the flak for Mallaya, Nirav Modi, Choksi, et. al., is NOT taking any chances. Your are again mis-characterizing the deboarding. NG was NOT detained. They went home and are are free to move around the country. It's pretty big as a matter of fact, in case you don't know."

Look Aarbee, I don't care if NG goes to jail or not. If he did something illegal, he should pay for it. But to prevent someone from leaving the country when there are no charges seems wrong to me. You would not want that to happen to you. And NG has nothing to do with the GOI's incompetence with Mallaya. The original discussion around NG being prevented to leave was around timing. Why now? What new thing has happened that the GOI has not already known? Finally, was blocking NG trying to send a message to investors in Jet? All fair questions and maybe the answer is something new came up and they are not trying to send any message. IMHO this circus continues, and I find it hard to except that NG was prevented from leaving because some new illegal activity came up and the GOI is about to charge him with something big.

Same here. If he is proved guilty, he should face the punishment. So GOI "Look out notices" are not enough for you? Was it something unlawful?

Yes, I would not want that to happen to me. If there is a person of interest, should not the GOI have a right to investigate? In case of NG, I'm sure he has able lawyers on retainer who if the denial was illegal can take the GOI to task.

So you think the GOI investigation which was started a while back is something new? Based on the links provided, there is suspicion that funds of Jet Airways were illegally diverted. Should that investigation not take place?

-R
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:22 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Yes, I agree NG was “detained” not “arrested” (I had not paid too much attention to the choice of word when typing. It doesn’t change my underlying point that in a civilized society one need to be charged before being detained. India shouldn’t be a dictatorship where strong men or women rule or make rules. That’s why there is separation of powers among the legislature, judiciary and executive..... unless in India this is merely on paper. As an illustrative example only, we know that North Korea is officially called the “Democratic” People’s Republic of Korea(DPRK).


Again NOT detained. Consider paying attention. They went home. In a civilized society one is also responsible for financial obligation, payment of dues, paying employee of salaries, run a clean business, not resort to corrupt practices (NO dial-a-mantri for business), etc., etc., etc. If one wants rights, there are responsibilities too. That's the nature of democracy, my friend.

I do not know where you and others get this idea that India is a dictatorship? If you are not familiar with Indian democracy, the parliament makes the rules (they may constitute of strong men or women). India needs strong men and women for the implementation and adherence to those rules, which has been lacking for the longest part.

Another civic lesson, Separation of executive and legislature is purely technical in India. The "executive" of India is a figurehead. In practice the executive is the Prime Minister and her/his cabinet of ministers, all of whom HAVE to be the part of legislature.

Again out of curiosity, Are you related to NG, have a stake or something too personal? Just because NG was prevented from leaving implies India's equivalence to NK?
-R


NG is not personally liable for the company. That is the basis of modern business which, through British law, India very much has. But in the end. Let's just disagree on this. That said, I don't agree that India is NK or a dictatorship. I think India can be lose on rules inconsistent with law enforcement. While global companies see tons of opportunity and promise in India, there are risks. One being these type of stunts. It is why have been so against crony capitalism - be it when it benefited NG (5/20) and Spice (mad dash for slots).



Yes the company is liable. If he is a Key personal of the company, should he not be answerable to investigations.

True rules can be inconsistent. But it seems that enforcement against corruption is going to be lot different than before.

It's just amusing that Spice slots are being ONLY portrayed as crony capitalism. India has 5 major airlines, it's not as if ONLY Spice was benefited. You seem to completely disregard the point that who was in a better position to utilized Jet's planes faster .

-R
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:28 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Nice, he hasn't even been charged and you have convicted him. Even if he is under investigation does that mean he can't leave the country? He could be investigated for 2 years so he is stuck. In most countries you need to be arrested or charged or something before liberties are taken away. It seemed like neither NG nor the press knew there was any charges against him until he hot pulled off the plane. Why didn't the police go to a judge and get some kind of order preventing him from leaving and then tell he that. I will admit I don't understand how India works when it comes to criminal justice (aside from Bollywood movies :)


If he is a person of interest in the investigation, should he just be remanded and investigated?

It is good that press did not know about the investigation. Let the investigating agencies do their job, rather than being judged by media.
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
aarbee wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Can you quote one example where GOI used the flexibility to save Jet?

In summary
GOI enforced every rule to force Jet shutdown.
GOI bent every rule to help SpiceJet.

May 23rd mandate confirms India is happy with GOI's actions with Jet, hence no change in the course necessary.

Give me a reason why should they save Jet Airways? So that you have travel option of YOUR preference? DTW-NYC-BOM-HYD?

Or according to you the only objective of GOI's since 2014 was to shutdown Jet Airways?!? That's what prevented them from being current on their financial obligations, paying salaries, etc. I get it.

Did you think the recently concluded elections were conducted for the purposed of Jet Airways. Do you seriously think Indian voters cared a hoot whether a private entity called Jet Airways survived our not? Not to start a political discussions but they had lot more important think on their minds then a certain private corporation.

-R


My comment was not about saving Jet. It is about fairness with clear eyes. Obviously, those who follow the Book of Fairness, everything looks fair.

My first preference is whatever SkyTeam gives me when I want to travel. If my schedule permits I am contemplating DTW-LHR on DL and LHR-HYD on BA self-connect option.

Just to prove these slots allocations were temporary, GoI will revoke slots from AI, UK, and G8 come October. Fair, correct.


Care to explain "May 23rd mandate confirms India is happy with GOI's actions with Jet" what this means then?

This looks like as if the currently concluded elections were a referendum on saving Jet. My dear friend voters have a lot more issues to care about . I don't want to go in to a political discussion here.

Slots may be temporary now. What do you want them to do with the slots in October. Just take it away? Create a new airline and GOI operate them with the slots?

I don't know what to say about your idea that the government whole and sole goal was to destroy Jet and now it it is upon it to resurrect it from dead.

-R
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Arbee,,
Are you suggesting that it is common for India’s premier investigation agency to spell names incorrectly.

Seriously have you done anything meaningful (criteria defined earlier) ? I'm not saying it's common, but you completely disregarding the possibility and throwing a fit about it is amusing.

edealinfo wrote:
Obviously they had access to NG’s passport information (surely if the US NSA has access to India’s giant biometric database, surely India’s own invetigation arms have access to basic passport info to copy to a look out notice.

Whoa, I hope you are not leaking any classified information out on public forums. Better be careful on what you are posting.

edealinfo wrote:
Or are you arguing in favor of on incompetency

Nobody now what has happened in real, but it is you are completely disregarding the possibility of mistakes happening.
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:40 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Arbee,
I would be flattered that you think that I would hold a material stake in Jet except; even if I did, it would probably have a relative worth of Re1, if I am lucky.
No, I don’t own Jet or SpiceJet or any Jet stock not am I related to any of their owners or executives.

Believe me that was not meant as a complement. I was more concerned about the "crony capitalism" relations

-R
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dtw2hyd
Posts: 7070
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:46 pm

aarbee wrote:
...
I don't know what to say about your idea that the government whole and sole goal was to destroy Jet and now it it is upon it to resurrect it from dead.

-R


One would think, for a 3T Disney dollar economy, USD3.3B annual revenue company is worth saving. Who are we kidding?

BTW, No one is asking it to be revived.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2575
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:02 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
aarbee wrote:
...
I don't know what to say about your idea that the government whole and sole goal was to destroy Jet and now it it is upon it to resurrect it from dead.

-R


One would think, for a 3T Disney dollar economy, USD3.3B annual revenue company is worth saving. Who are we kidding?

BTW, No one is asking it to be revived.

No. No hand outs to failed enterprises.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
aarbee
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:20 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:16 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I love that now on this thread if you dare take sympathy on NG (even though you might have railed against him in the past), you are a fanboy.


It's not the question of sympathy for NG. Let the law takes it own course.

It's throwing a fit by some, just because NG was denied permission to go abroad and insinuating that there is NO rule of law is the issue.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Basically if your view isn’t that SpiceJet is a great airline, their leader was brilliant in grabbing Jet’s BOM slots and India is on the cusp of a golden period of aviation then you are persona non grata or a foreigner (don’t know which is worse here anymore). Jeez guys. Why is it so annoying to you that some of us liked flying Jet. I am totally not annoyed that you hated Jet.

You can like whatever you want. You are incorrectly accusing of "HATE". I never hated Jet. Though last 2 personal experiences were conduct unbecoming of Jet. Had a lot of pleasant experiences before.

The annoyance is because Jet and BOM are not our preferences :
  • We don't value our time
  • We care for cheap tickets only
  • Our convenience is of NO consequence.
  • Aviation in India should revolve around BOM/DEL only
  • One should bear transit through the inconvenience called BOM and admire the arts and terminal at 2 in the night
  • ME3 giving convenience to smaller and secondary cities is disaster for Aviation in India
  • Jet is not saved that means it's crony capitalism or else India is NK
  • EK should be forced to cut down frequency at BOM, to suit Jet.
  • BOM market does NOT have cheap fares , whereas I have ONLY seen $500 RTs to BOM only
are the issues.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Jet offered me good service and tons of options from BOM-EU plus a sky team connection. To each their own. I am also not a fanboy nor think Jet was a well run airline. I just lament that there is no airline in india today that is well enough run that they can even come close to take the place on Jet.


Yes no, other airline. That does not mean Jet should be saved. If it's business failure, let it fail.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Plus the crony capitalism of both Jet and Spice is What hurts indian aviation IMHO. Look at responses above. No one has actually built a case as to why Spice is a great airline and not benefitting from favoritism. If the fact that we are not based in India your strongest counter point, well...


Never claimed Spice is a great. But in general it seems that if Spice gets anything more than 0 slots, despite the fact that they are more i position to leverage from Jet planes, Spice is benefiting from favoritism.

-R

P.S. - I'm NOT based in India.
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:25 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
In an ideal world, Jet's BOM operations would have been sold to Vistara, Spice, Indigo, EY, whomever. This sale would have paid off Jet's debt and new Jet would be clean. Total normal in most of the world. On this thread some don't want this - why? Because they either want their favorite airline to get something for free or so hate Jet/Jet employees/BOM what ever that they just want it gone. Also remember I have been consistent in saying NG should not benefit from any sale. Only the banks then the unsecured creditors then the equity holders (the last two would never see anything).


How could the BOM operations be sold to to other airlines. None of the airlines have similar business models as Jet or the infrastructure to suddenly take it on.

It would be amusing how Vistara will handle B-737 in their fleet. Only 1 airline could use Jet's planes and that to modifying their business model to suddenly compensate for Jet's failure. But assigning anything more than 1 slot to it is favoritism.

No I don't have any favorite airline in India. It has become a commodity aviation, so fares and convenience is the bottom line. Though I prefer A320s over B737s that factors only after convenience and fare.


-R
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:29 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Btw, things actually worked out mostly fine for me: DL JFK-BOM (nonstop with suites in J - mom and bro already booked and excited), VS new LHR-BOM (DL partner and previously had great onboard service in J between LHR-BOM), KL increases AMS-BOM with better timings (DL partner - I'm on this flight in DEC on a new 789). So I'm good. Only my mom isn't super happy because she lost the 9:30am and 1pm (or what ever it was) BOM-LHR flights that connect to evening JFK flights. She hates hates hates leaving BOM after 10pm. Oh well, she will have to deal. Option lost (but hey who needs timing options when Indigo might launch BOM-IST-LGW LCC flight on a 737).

Good it worked out for you. With all due respects to your mother, see how she has certain preferences and you are OK with it. It's the same for us non-BOM fans, we have our preferences.

Indigo - 737 ? :boggled:

-R
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:36 pm

edealinfo wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
avier wrote:
MCA issues lookout circular against Jet Airways former CEO Vinay Dube
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/mca-issues-lookout-notice-against-former-jet-airways-ceo-vinay-dube-3541591.htm

Yikes. Even he's not spared.


Which is why we were arguing against the draconian “denied travel” (or whatever) without explicit charges being filed. Now Jet workers who haven’t been paid get back at professionals using this route never mind that Dube hasn’t himself been paid since December..... far longer than other workers who are also demanding to be paid for April and May when they have not worked during this period.



So since either you do not understand the rules and system in India OR it's not in your favor it becomes a draconian system.

edealinfo wrote:
For all those who supported NGs restrictions on travel without charges, look where this kind of policy could lead. This is why in the West they set up laws, or rules, that those in power need to abide with.

Sure India is wild wild east, right. You seem to think the West do not have any flaws. There is complete adherence to it and those in power do no misuse their powers.

:roll:

edealinfo wrote:
I guess India just kissed goodbye to a potential investment in Jet by the Hindujas. I had long been arguing on this forum that potential investors in Jet are being sent a message and the message is on the wall.

At least by the end of this week we would know whether Jet will fly again or not. Guess which way the winds are blowing on this.

So to get the potential investment by Hindujas for a dead airline, rules should have been overlooked and lookout notice for NG should ignored.

-R
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:37 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

I guess India just kissed goodbye to a potential investment in Jet by the Hindujas. I had long been arguing on this forum that potential investors in Jet are being sent a message and the message is on the wall.

At least by the end of this week we would know whether Jet will fly again or not. Guess which way the winds are blowing on this.


Jet is dead and has been for quite a while now, even when they were operating.

You and your friend Cali have repeatedly and vociferously aired fantastical scenarios that are without any basis in modern business, economics, or political science, and very little basis in fact.

There are no assets left worth buying at Jet, even if the banks take a 99% haircut. The unsecured creditors and employees are owed too much to make anything work.

I don’t give a hoot about NG one way or the other. I have flown Jet several times and enjoyed it, especially in F to LHR. I have also flown Spice, Indigo, Kingfisher, Air Deccan...heck, I even took the Shitabdi Express a few times.

You guys are entirely too wrapped up in this and have turned it into some sort of soap opera in your heads...the business world does not work like a soap opera.

Airlines come and go, businessmen come and go, businesses come and go.

All your fantastical scenarios and suppositions of facts make you look like fools.

“It is better to be silent and assumed a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.”


:checkmark:
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:47 pm

sibibom wrote:

Agreed! Companies come and go, nothing is permanent except perhaps the queen of England who seems will never die(lizard person alert!).

Jet was a lovely product a decade back, lately, its been terrible and even Air India was a better experience.


Concur on that. It was pleasure to fly. I only did it domestically though.
sibibom wrote:

Far more importantly as a business it was heading to doom for years now. How long can you continue to have higher cost base, highest coast per seat, excess and overpaid pilots and staff, provide more amenities than competitors and yet can't charge more?

My experience was that they charged significant more then "budget' airlines, it didn't make any difference between the quality of Jet and others.

sibibom wrote:
Last September onwards it became clear they wouldn't be able to meet loan obligations due very soon, while a catastrophic storm of devalued rupee and rising oil price was looming. Hell even big bully was on the verge of loss that quarter. I said it out loud along with a few other people here, we were called Indigo's agents ...as if we drove the company to bankruptcy!

Yes, I should have inconvenienced myself and suffered through BOM and admired the art work at 2am, maybe that might have delayed the bankruptcy.

sibibom wrote:

Along with bad business practices, there seems to be systematic looting of assets towards the end, which Naresh Goyal and Vinay Dube need to explain. How did the owned planes suddenly become leased to random shell companies? Where did the cash from sale and leaseback of MAXs go? Jet is a publically traded company, the public and shareholders deserve to know the truth...

That is going to be interesting. Did NG divert funds, if so where.


-R
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:49 pm

edealinfo wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
. In a week we’ll start hearing increase seats to EK mantra.


Is this just a hunch because of the new Government or Minister? The policy so far has to contain DXB-India capacity despite 100% utilization (pre-Jet collapse) because a) Indian carriers wanted capacity-limited for higher yields, and b) Indian carriers couldn't get commercially viable slots at DXB.

However, now that EK has Spicejet are friends and they both have a code-share agreement, maybe Government policy would shift?

Wild theories and accusations are OK , if it comes from your side and suits your narrative.
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aarbee
Posts: 406
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:52 pm

edealinfo wrote:
bennett123 wrote:

All this is moot. An airline backed by Etihad, NIIF, Mudabla (Abu Dhabi sovereign fund) and the Hindujas could hypothetically take off. However, right now, there are 2 sticky points with the Hindujas signing on to the consortium (the consortium will be non existent if the Hindujas are not-in, so they are the key party at this point in time).

1. The Hindujas want banks to take a big haircut (80% to 90%) which Indian banks can't swallow because the media and public will project it as crony capitalism. [It is not logical because the alternative is that the bank gets close to 0% if Jet is dragged through the formal bankruptcy process, which could drag on for years -- by then the public anger would have subsided and Jet would have long been forgotten so you can see why the banks prefer that approach]

2. The numerous investigations initiated against Jet after it went belly up is intended to serve a message to potential buyers that a) they would be buying into a snake pit and b) they might end up in the snake pit .

Whether Hindujas step in or bail out will be known by May 10 at the very latest. So, we have about a week to go before we know one way or the other.

Are these based on any facts? OR more of your speculations.

WRT (2) - So you don't want to rule of law followed in the case where it harms any resurrection of Jet?

-R
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