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JayinKitsap
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:50 pm

I suspect the Jet buyer proposals have now vanished. What is there to buy? If one buys, I assume the buyer gets all the debt.

EY has lost its 24% investment and all the Indian feeder traffic, not looking good for them.

With the planes all gone to the lenders, Jet's value to others has vanished.
 
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B747fanReal
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:18 pm

edealinfo wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Times of India is carrying a story that there was a conspiracy to remove Naresh Goyal and being the airline down —- the newspaper is covering the story from the union leader’s perspective. It is funny how the article praises Naresh Goyal and places the blame solely on the the lenders and the government. you have to give Naresh Goyal credit for twisting a terribly bad situation to make him look like he was the real hero. Shame on the Times for carrying such a story

Oh, I forgot to mention that the story also calls for a CBI probe into why Naresh Goyal was removed as Chairman of Jet.

I read this article within the Times of India app. And therefore can’t post the link but if you go the the Times web site you should se it.

MEANWHILE, the Economic Times is reporting that the head of the Indian Banks association has written to Modi, on behalf of the association, that if there is no bidder for Jet, the Air India should take over Jet.

You gotta love INdian democracy at work. Sadly, for businesses this means chaos rules. With all this “hungama” going on, would you still want to invest in Jet? too much baggage and politics in my opinion.

Here’s the link https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... m=referral


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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:50 pm

Jet lost a hundred pilots to SpiceJet.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 1.html/amp

I read somewhere else over 400 pilots have left Jet. Sorry I forgot to grab the link.

What is being bid on? This certainly seems like a pig in a poke. For modern business communication is key.

Lightsaber
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VTORD
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I read somewhere else over 400 pilots have left Jet. Sorry I forgot to grab the link.
Lightsaber


I think you are talking about the news where 400 Jet pilots interviewed at SG. I recall the post in the previous thread. All 400 may not have been hired.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:08 pm

VTORD wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I read somewhere else over 400 pilots have left Jet. Sorry I forgot to grab the link.
Lightsaber


I think you are talking about the news where 400 Jet pilots interviewed at SG. I recall the post in the previous thread. All 400 may not have been hired.

I found a different level link:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SKCN1RU11C

The head of Jet's pilot guild says 400 pilots have already left the company in the above link.

I feel for employees. Goyal should have stepped aside when Tata bid. Cest la vie.

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avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:11 pm

An interesting article comparing Jet's current situation to SpiceJet's back then, and how the rescuers and Govt. took pro active steps to save SpiceJet, whereas in Jet's case none cared.

Woke Up Petroleum Minister's Private Secretary at Midnight': How SpiceJet Averted the Jet Fate
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/woke-up-petroleum-ministers-private-secretary-at-midnight-how-spicejet-averted-the-jet-fate-2109531.html
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:13 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
winginit wrote:
To bring things back on topic, what happens to Jet's 77Ws? With an average age of 11 years they aren't spring chickens but curious as to where they might end up. Apologies if that was already brought up in the previous thread.

A fair question. So far used 77Ws haven't had much trouble finding a home. However, I believe this is enough additional 77Ws to suddenly hit the market, combined with A350 and 787 production, that the used pricing of 77Ws just took a hit.

In my opinion, these will find a 2nd Life as in passenger duty. However, the need for a 77W/L P2F just became punctuated. But we quickly go off topic there.

I hope individuals post where Jet aircraft find a home here. If someone puts together a summary, I would appreciate it.

E.g., I know how many 738s SpiceJet is allocated, but not if all are ex-Jet. I assume all 16, but is that the case?

I am also interested in where Jet employees end up. How many pilots to SpiceJet, Indigo, Emirates, etc. Will there be enough information to follow technicians, FA, and ground staff?

Lightsaber

They only had 10 777-300s not enough to bring the prices down

https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Jet ... d-b777.htm

I believe the released 77Ws were saturating the market demand. With the high production rate of 787s, A350s, and soon 777x, I believe ten 77Ws suddenly hitting the market will hurt pricing.

As to the status of employees, I posted a link above, 400 Jet pilots have found new employment. Technicians seem to be also finding jobs. It is definitely going to be tougher for semi-skilled (6 weeks of training to perform a job is the definition I use) or unskilled (able to learn a job in under 2 weeks). I wish the employees good fortune.

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vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:14 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
I suspect the Jet buyer proposals have now vanished. What is there to buy? If one buys, I assume the buyer gets all the debt.

EY has lost its 24% investment and all the Indian feeder traffic, not looking good for them.

With the planes all gone to the lenders, Jet's value to others has vanished.


EY has the planes or can lease the former 9W planes, and start the feeder routes.

NG lost his house of cards; banks thought no point in throwing more good money after bad. Everyone is wiser!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:18 pm

avier wrote:
An interesting article comparing Jet's current situation to SpiceJet's back then, and how the rescuers and Govt. took pro active steps to save SpiceJet, whereas in Jet's case none cared.

Woke Up Petroleum Minister's Private Secretary at Midnight': How SpiceJet Averted the Jet Fate
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/woke-up-petroleum-ministers-private-secretary-at-midnight-how-spicejet-averted-the-jet-fate-2109531.html

That article neglects the timelines Goyal refused to step asside. He refused to give up control until 2/3rds of the fleet was grounded. Goyal successfully used influence to hold off action.

Once Air India started dumping last minute fares, Jet was doomed. It was a brutal 6 to 8 months for Indian airlines. Now we can look forward to 15 to 24 months of good yield. Then it starts again per my estimate.

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blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:19 pm

avier wrote:
An interesting article comparing Jet's current situation to SpiceJet's back then, and how the rescuers and Govt. took pro active steps to save SpiceJet, whereas in Jet's case none cared.

Woke Up Petroleum Minister's Private Secretary at Midnight': How SpiceJet Averted the Jet Fate
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/woke-up-petroleum-ministers-private-secretary-at-midnight-how-spicejet-averted-the-jet-fate-2109531.html


I think the Marans were much more willing to hand over control compared to NG. In Jet’s case, EY& Tata’s showed interest provided NG relinquish all control, which he wasn’t willing to do. By the time he did, it was too late. Not sure if govt had any leverage over NG.
 
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Slash787
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:22 pm

I was on a vacation, So I could not post. I just came back yesterday and this is really sad news. I had a lot of memories from Jet Airways. Khalnayak would be sad too, I guess we would never see the B787 in the Jet Airways Livery. I hope things work out for all the staff members.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:31 pm

avier wrote:
An interesting article comparing Jet's current situation to SpiceJet's back then, and how the rescuers and Govt. took pro active steps to save SpiceJet, whereas in Jet's case none cared.

Woke Up Petroleum Minister's Private Secretary at Midnight': How SpiceJet Averted the Jet Fate
https://www.news18.com/news/opinion/woke-up-petroleum-ministers-private-secretary-at-midnight-how-spicejet-averted-the-jet-fate-2109531.html


SpiceJet had 1900 crore as total debt at that time (now debt free) and 1/4 th the fleet of 9W also it found a new owner pretty quickly, who bought his own funds into the airline. None of these factors ever favoured 9W
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Once Air India started dumping last minute fares, Jet was doomed.

Lightsaber


Do you have any evidence for your repeated unsubstantiated claim? AI neither had the capacity nor intent to dump capacity.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:30 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Once Air India started dumping last minute fares, Jet was doomed.

Lightsaber


Do you have any evidence for your repeated unsubstantiated claim? AI neither had the capacity nor intent to dump capacity.

When Jet's issus started it was noted it was squeezed by air India:

https://www.financialexpress.com/opinio ... s/1385814/

Air India started a price war two years before:
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/F13e ... -by-A.html

4 years ago another Air India price war:

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... -war/28976

Now, the year before that was the Infamous Indigo/SpiceJet price war.

AI is by definition dumping capacity with how heavily subsidized they are. You did notice their load factor improved after AI failed to sell a year ago, right? Those added seats came at Jet's expense.

No airline receiving billions in government aid is blameless in a fare war. Or is there proof 5 to 10 months ago, the period that triggered Jet's demise, AI was profitable? I'm still waiting for quarterly reports from AI.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:40 pm

anshabhi wrote:

SpiceJet had 1900 crore as total debt at that time (now debt free) and 1/4 th the fleet of 9W also it found a new owner pretty quickly, who bought his own funds into the airline. None of these factors ever favoured 9W

1. How in a capital intensive industry is SpiceJet debt free? It doesn’t make sense.
2. Where did Ajay Singh get funds to invest in spiceJet?
3. has the Government developed a formula for distribution of Jet’s Dubai slots?
4. why is Vistara not bidding for Dubai slots and why has it not announced a plan to grab all of Jet’s Singapore slots????why are Vistara and Airasia sleeping at the wheels (I said it before and I will say it again). They had a historic opportunity to grab key slots and they have slept through it. Look how Ajay Sing increased the value of his company, and his own wealth, in thousands of crores literally in the last month alone just by moving incredibly fast to fill Jet’s void. Heck, there might even be a Harvard Business Review case for Spicejet
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:57 pm

lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Once Air India started dumping last minute fares, Jet was doomed.

Lightsaber


Do you have any evidence for your repeated unsubstantiated claim? AI neither had the capacity nor intent to dump capacity.

When Jet's issus started it was noted it was squeezed by air India:

https://www.financialexpress.com/opinio ... s/1385814/

Air India started a price war two years before:
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/F13e ... -by-A.html

4 years ago another Air India price war:

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... -war/28976

Now, the year before that was the Infamous Indigo/SpiceJet price war.

AI is by definition dumping capacity with how heavily subsidized they are. You did notice their load factor improved after AI failed to sell a year ago, right? Those added seats came at Jet's expense.

No airline receiving billions in government aid is blameless in a fare war. Or is there proof 5 to 10 months ago, the period that triggered Jet's demise, AI was profitable? I'm still waiting for quarterly reports from AI.

Lightsaber


Expected that Indian media is your source.

AI doesn't crash last-minute fares, it doesn't participate in last minute price gouging/price-fixing scheme all private carriers follow.

XYZ-ABC
Advance fares - PCs $50, AI $200
Walk up fares - PCs $600, AI $400

Obviously, PCs hate this, hence parroted by Indian media. But it helps customers.
If you recall most wonder why AI fares are out of sync. Sort of consumer protection.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:03 pm

edealinfo wrote:
why are Vistara and Airasia sleeping at the wheels (I said it before and I will say it again). They had a historic opportunity to grab key slots and they have slept through it.


They are not sleeping at the switch, they don't want to get burned at a future date. Yesterday it was Vijay Mallya, today it is Naresh Goyal. Singh and Bhatia/Gangwal will get their turn. Only one thing is sure in India, every private carrier will shut down someday.
 
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Narfish641
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:06 am

Just saw this, I'm sorry for the employees who had to go through this. I have been hearing that they could save Jet Airways from their shut down but is still time to bring back Jet from it's death bed?
Flew on:
SWA 737 738
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:46 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Do you have any evidence for your repeated unsubstantiated claim? AI neither had the capacity nor intent to dump capacity.

When Jet's issus started it was noted it was squeezed by air India:

https://www.financialexpress.com/opinio ... s/1385814/

Air India started a price war two years before:
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/F13e ... -by-A.html

4 years ago another Air India price war:

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... -war/28976

Now, the year before that was the Infamous Indigo/SpiceJet price war.

AI is by definition dumping capacity with how heavily subsidized they are. You did notice their load factor improved after AI failed to sell a year ago, right? Those added seats came at Jet's expense.

No airline receiving billions in government aid is blameless in a fare war. Or is there proof 5 to 10 months ago, the period that triggered Jet's demise, AI was profitable? I'm still waiting for quarterly reports from AI.

Lightsaber


Expected that Indian media is your source.

AI doesn't crash last-minute fares, it doesn't participate in last minute price gouging/price-fixing scheme all private carriers follow.

XYZ-ABC
Advance fares - PCs $50, AI $200
Walk up fares - PCs $600, AI $400

Obviously, PCs hate this, hence parroted by Indian media. But it helps customers.
If you recall most wonder why AI fares are out of sync. Sort of consumer protection.

$400 walk up is insane. Yield management has it's place. I provided sources as requested. How can a heavily subsidized direct competitor not be responsible? Indigo and SpiceJet do not yet compete much internationally, yet. I expect that to really change within 24 months. They have low enough costs to change everything.

Meh... I have no skin in the game. I just call it how I see it. How about creating good PR? Step #1, stop using public money. Every time there is a major issue, it is blamed on PR/Indian press.

From my perspective, they're doing journalism. Amazing how often they are accused of bias here, yet proven correct.

Lightsaber
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moa999
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:55 am

Can't see it.
It was saveable six months ago by keeping 80% of the fleet, pushing through the pay cuts that NG blocked and slimming management, as well as the new investor(s) and debt-equity conversion.

Now it's too late.
At best you might keep 20% of the fleet after all the resumptions. But then you'd still owe all the employer backpay and have to lay off a high proportion of staff and get out of all sorts of leases and agreements to reflect the smaller size. Just can't see that being viable for a new investor.

About the only way I can see a semblance of Jet continuing is for a NewCo to buy the Jet AOCs and rehire on new contracts a select number of employees, but dump most of the other liabilities.

Whatever you can sell that for goes to the employees and banks, the rest is a loss.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:03 am

lightsaber wrote:
$400 walk up is insane. Yield management has it's place. I provided sources as requested. How can a heavily subsidized direct competitor not be responsible? Indigo and SpiceJet do not yet compete much internationally, yet. I expect that to really change within 24 months. They have low enough costs to change everything.

Meh... I have no skin in the game. I just call it how I see it. How about creating good PR? Step #1, stop using public money. Every time there is a major issue, it is blamed on PR/Indian press.

From my perspective, they're doing journalism. Amazing how often they are accused of bias here, yet proven correct.

Lightsaber


So selling advance fares on a firesale, with a hope to gouge walk-up fares in collusion is better yield management than having reasonable advance and walk-up fares?
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:26 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Expected that Indian media is your source.


It is a source at least. Ironic given your constant wild accusations that have none.

If you refute the indian media, cite a source or stop whining about the quality of others.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
dcajet
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:16 am

When did Jet Airways fly to SFO? Which was the route it operated?
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
smartplane
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:29 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
The 9W 77W fleet has an average age is 11.6 years. Assuming they were on a 12-year payment plan, SBI Caps should be able to recover FMV to payoff Citibank, secondary collaterals and still make money.

In addition to multiple fixed charges over these aircraft, of which Citigroup has the first, plus default charges and accrued interest, equity remaining, if any, will be exhausted by the multiple floating charges over the same aircraft. SBI will not 'make' money - it's all spoken for, and more besides.
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:31 am

dcajet wrote:
When did Jet Airways fly to SFO? Which was the route it operated?


EY operated a dry leased 9W 777 to SFO
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
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CPS001
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:33 am

dcajet wrote:
When did Jet Airways fly to SFO? Which was the route it operated?
BOM-PVG-SFO between June 2008 and Jan 2009.

FWIW, Etihad operated it's AUH-SFO service in 2014 with B77W leased from Jet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
sibibom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:01 am

CPS001 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
When did Jet Airways fly to SFO? Which was the route it operated?
BOM-PVG-SFO between June 2008 and Jan 2009.

FWIW, Etihad operated it's AUH-SFO service in 2014 with B77W leased from Jet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I just noticed those dates. Jet began its big bang international plans right around the great financial crisis of 2008. If they had done if earlier or after probably this day would not have arrived. Fate sadly didn't favour Jet from that point on.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:07 am

sibibom wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
When did Jet Airways fly to SFO? Which was the route it operated?
BOM-PVG-SFO between June 2008 and Jan 2009.

FWIW, Etihad operated it's AUH-SFO service in 2014 with B77W leased from Jet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I just noticed those dates. Jet began its big bang international plans right around the great financial crisis of 2008. If they had done if earlier or after probably this day would not have arrived. Fate sadly didn't favour Jet from that point on.


They should have stuck with their domestic plans along with the regional stuff (CMB, SIN, DXB etc) with a spoke or two to the LHRs and HKGs of this world.

Mindlessly buying 10 each of every aircraft in vogue (332, 77W, 789) and launching JNB, PVG, SFO, MXP etc led them nowhere.

Let's not even talk about Sahara.
Vahroone
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:27 am

Questions, Questions, Questions

1. Does jet's management (whatever is remaining) and banks have an plan to bring backs Jet's 77W that was "confiscated" in Amsterdam?

2. What is the assumed value of Jet's confiscated 77W? Was the vendor, that got the court order to confiscate the aircraft, smart enough to select the youngest 77W in Jet's fleet that happened to have stopped in Amsterdam?

3. Why is TPG even in the bidding process for Jet? With all the baggage that comes with Jet, shouldn't a savvy private equity player stay far away from it knowing fully well that the government and banks, for political and other reasons, cannot give the buyer a great deal.

4. In the eyes of Etihad, how valuable are Jet's slots/traffic to AUH (50,000 seats a week)? Can they operate perfectly fine without Jet's feed? If not I guess Jet's value to them is the value of 50,000 seats minus Jet's current liabilities.

5. Is Jet's collapse also a collapse for UDAN in the sense that airlines would now prefer to use their fleet for profitable ex-Jet routes rather than use their limited planes new UDAN routes.

6. Why are foreign airlines (which are no constrained by bilateral rights that are exhausted) no also going after Jet's prime slots? I mean there are prime daytime slots at BOM that are there for the asking.

7. Has Indigo's 2 flights to Istanbul seen a big jump in traffic now that Jet's international service has been terminated? Does Indigo also code-share on Turkish Airlines' North America flights? If not, why not?

8. Which airlines are moving to fill the void to Europe and N. America cause by jet's collapse? I hear that Air India has plans to lease some of Jet's 77W's to fly to London....but that's about all.

9. Isn't this a good time for Lufthansa to start flights to Hyderabad?

10. How long does it take for a 737 pilot to convert their license to an Airbus 320 license? Where is the training done? In India, or does one have to go abroad? Are there any such training centers in BOM or DEL?

11. Will the Government now abolish the 5/20 rule? It never made sense but the opportunity to politically drop it is very good by using Jet's collapse as a cover/excuse.

12. Indigo has been grabbing a lot of market share. Why hasn't India's "Competition Authority" not commented on the issue? Or, is it just a smokescreen authority? Or, a stupid one like SEBI that would rather let a company fail and banks lose billions of dollars of public money because it won't give an exemption to an acquirer of 25% stock, to make a public offer to acquire a further 26%.

13. Has Pakistan opened up its airspace that was previously closed? Do indigo's planes now fly direct to Istanbul without a technical stop in Doha?

14. "Air France fly daily to Mumbai (the flight is operated by Joon) and to Bangalore, and five times a week to Delhi. KLM has a daily flight to Delhi and operates three times a week to Mumbai." Couldn't SkyTeam have a quick fix by increasing Air France flights to 7X from 5X to DEL, and KLM to BOM flights to 7X from 3X ?
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
edealinfo
Posts: 1660
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:35 am

Do we need a new thread on "Air India reports cash running out" given:

"Air India’s SOS: No funds to repay and service Rs 9,000 cr debt in FY20"

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68948308.cms?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:59 am

Here is an Interview with Jayant Sinha, the Minister of State of Finance, on Jet's collapse. He is so polished and explained the Government's position very well. This is the kind of minister that one should be proud - educated, articulated, clarity in thought, logical, and non-biased. When politicians are generally thought of as goons, he is quite the opposite -- a shining spark.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 965463.cms
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:06 am

edealinfo wrote:
Do we need a new thread on "Air India reports cash running out" given:

"Air India’s SOS: No funds to repay and service Rs 9,000 cr debt in FY20"

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68948308.cms?

Happens every month

We definitely need a thread on edealinfo's questions :)
 
blrsea
Posts: 1912
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:15 am

One needs to understand that adding new flights is not easy. One needs planes and manpower. No airlines keep a bunch of spare aircraft. Planes make money when they are in air, not when they are on ground. The minimal spares that some big airlines might have is mainly for cases when planes might go to sudden maintenance and might be taken out of rotation. And starting new flights is not like adding a new bus in local city transportation. Requires lots more planning and resources. A cursory search on airliners.net offers many posts where such issues are discussed.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:21 am

edealinfo wrote:
Do we need a new thread on "Air India reports cash running out" given:

"Air India’s SOS: No funds to repay and service Rs 9,000 cr debt in FY20"

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68948308.cms?

First, a link that works (you missed http):. https://m.economictimes.com/industry/tr ... 948308.cms

The link says AI is losing 6 crore per day?!? How! This market, with yield vup 28%, should be a money printing time. Your link notes the government making 2,700 crore of interest payments per year for AI for the special purpose vehicle v(AI was paying 4,400).

This is important as the large AI help saturated the market ending Jet early. Now ironically, Jet might become part of AI.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:22 am

[twoid][/twoid]
blrsea wrote:
One needs to understand that adding new flights is not easy. One needs planes and manpower. No airlines keep a bunch of spare aircraft. Planes make money when they are in air, not when they are on ground. The minimal spares that some big airlines might have is mainly for cases when planes might go to sudden maintenance and might be taken out of rotation. And starting new flights is not like adding a new bus in local city transportation. Requires lots more planning and resources. A cursory search on airliners.net offers many posts where such issues are discussed.


You do understand that Spicejet is adding 27 planes in less than 15 days: 16+6 = 22 737's and 5 Q-400s....yes, a 20% increase in their overall fleet in less than a month. SpiceJet works at finding ways to make things work not like others who find ways how things won't work. This is a big difference.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 am

SpiceJet adding more flights in a short while is not normal routine. It is also due to mix of circumstances including their grounded Maxs, being offered Jet’s leased aircraft at attractive prices and probably some prodding by GoI. And they are probably taking a huge risk in case they are asked to return all of Jet’s slots in October if someone else acquired Jets. It is not normal to increase fleet by such high percentage when future isn’t clear. Chances are SpiceJet might have already been thinking of some amount of expansion and this might have accelerated it. To hold up one case and state that if they can do it, anyone can is very naive & poor understanding of businesses.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:43 am

blrsea wrote:
SpiceJet adding more flights in a short while is not normal routine. It is also due to mix of circumstances including their grounded Maxs, being offered Jet’s leased aircraft at attractive prices and probably some prodding by GoI. And they are probably taking a huge risk in case they are asked to return all of Jet’s slots in October if someone else acquired Jets. It is not normal to increase fleet by such high percentage when future isn’t clear. Chances are SpiceJet might have already been thinking of some amount of expansion and this might have accelerated it. To hold up one case and state that if they can do it, anyone can is very naive & poor understanding of businesses.


Only 13 of their MAXes were grounded. They are getting far more aircraft in a very short period (22 737 and 5 Q400). Don't expect those additional planes (over the 13 grounded) will be grounded since they are NOT the MAXes. They will have pilots, staff, etc., etc., etc., that you earlier said would be difficult to get at short notice. They did what naysayers like you said that they can't . That's the reason that in the last month their stock wen't up like 60% to 80%. That's the price the market is willing to bet against the naysayers. Business Principle #1: The early bird catches the worm. Business Principle #2: Rewards are proportionate to risks.
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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climbing230
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:43 am

Out of the present topic : Lufthansa operated A340-300 to HYD sometime back circa ~ 2009.
I am a just a check-in agent at HYD so i am no stalwart with all those huge airline management and related fields.I always see BOM , DEL , BLR in topics.HYD too has a potential which i feel is untapped.For example Even AI does not even fly direct from HYD to LHR using its own metal while all other above mentioned stations cater directly (BOM ; DEL; AMD), nor is there any Air-India Express services.Hubs are good but why only those stations all the time.I feel more opportunities should be evaluated for few direct services out of HYD.All airports have shopping malls but then concessionaire activities are crucial as well.
Atleast i see LCC's from HYD operating to Gulf.
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VTCIE
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:58 am

climbing230 wrote:
Out of the present topic : Lufthansa operated A340-300 to HYD sometime back circa ~ 2009.
I am a just a check-in agent at HYD so i am no stalwart with all those huge airline management and related fields.I always see BOM , DEL , BLR in topics.HYD too has a potential which i feel is untapped.For example Even AI does not even fly direct from HYD to LHR using its own metal while all other above mentioned stations cater directly (BOM ; DEL; AMD), nor is there any Air-India Express services.Hubs are good but why only those stations all the time.I feel more opportunities should be evaluated for few direct services out of HYD.All airports have shopping malls but then concessionaire activities are crucial as well.
Atleast i see LCC's from HYD operating to Gulf.

The privatisation of HYD was a huge missed opportunity for international/long-haul expansion. The then-new BLR airport seized the privatisation opportunity and greatly expanded its international flights over the past 10 years, but HYD is well behind the mismanaged state-run MAA in terms of international routes. I do not see a large or small number of new long-haul routes to HYD in the near future.

viewtopic.php?t=1416793&p=21167513
VTCIE wrote:
I continue to maintain that HYD is a golden opportunity missed despite its being privatised. Now MAA will never get anywhere even if it were to be privatised. But HYD had the same dreams and ambitions as BLR, and not even to see HYD in the reckoning for international expansion is highly disconcerting for Hyderabad. Despite it having far more domestic passengers than MAA, it will be an uphill task for HYD to dislodge MAA from the fourth spot in the overall tally, let alone reach 25m annual passengers (BLR is steadily on course for 30m).

viewtopic.php?t=1411781&p=21029825
VTCIE wrote:
As regards HYD, there's a reason it's nowhere close to BLR in terms of European connections. Hyderabad isn't as much of an international IT and business hub as Bengaluru (Hyderabad would be equal to Chennai or slightly more). Even though both Bengaluru and Hyderabad avoided the unfortunate fate of Chennai by building shiny new airports a long distance away from the city, only BLR has been able to capitalise on it. As mentioned, 9W flies BLR-AMS, AF flies BLR-CDG, LH flies BLR-FRA and AI and BA fly BLR-LHR, while HYD has only the BA flight to LHR. It is very sad that MAA (an airport that simply does not bother about #PaxEx, and appallingly lacking in facilities) gets LH service (and even 9W CDG service, if not AF/KL), while HYD, a far better airport in every respect, is nowhere close.
Last edited by VTCIE on Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:23 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:05 pm

edealinfo wrote:

Only 13 of their MAXes were grounded. They are getting far more aircraft in a very short period. Don't expect those additional planes will be grounded. They will have pilots, staff, etc., etc., etc., that you earlier said would be difficult to get at short notice. They did what naysayers like you said that they can't . That's the reason that in the last month their stock wen't up like 60% to 80%. That's the price the market is willing to bet against the naysayers. Business Principle #1: The early bird catches the worm. Business Principle #2: Rewards are proportionate to risks.


I am really interested in knowing how old you are.
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:50 pm

Daring initiative by Reliance to possibly take over Jet and later Air India. [See the link below for the Financial Express story on it]

(Note that even in the Jayant Sinha interview (I provided the link in an earlier post), the interviewer asked about Reliance and the honorable Minister skirted the issue -- she asked twice and both the times he was evasive). Maybe something is going on in the background between Reliance, Etihad, and the Government that we aren't privy to???

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... a/1553995/
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:58 pm

VTCIE wrote:
It is very sad that MAA (an airport that simply does not bother about #PaxEx, and appallingly lacking in facilities) gets LH service (and even 9W CDG service, if not AF/KL), while HYD, a far better airport in every respect, is nowhere close.


Surely you don't believe that the quality of an airport is the only reason for airlines to launch O&D flights?
Vahroone
 
anshabhi
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:05 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Daring initiative by Reliance to possibly take over Jet and later Air India.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... a/1553995/


Rule #1 of surviving: Don't base your opinions on unidentified anonymous sources.

Its pretty common to see such news flows when big fish have to dump their stocks and illusion the general public into buying them. Monitor now how 9W stock will start its day extremely positive could even be 10%+, but end in red on Monday.

You can check Pakistan airspace status here:
https://caapakistan.com.pk/NOTAMS/NotamView.aspx
Right now its closed till24th April.
6E's DEL-IST has surely seen a spike in fare with average one way for next 2 months being 25k+, what was 14k few days earlier.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:23 pm

blrsea wrote:
One needs to understand that adding new flights is not easy. One needs planes and manpower. No airlines keep a bunch of spare aircraft. Planes make money when they are in air, not when they are on ground. The minimal spares that some big airlines might have is mainly for cases when planes might go to sudden maintenance and might be taken out of rotation. And starting new flights is not like adding a new bus in local city transportation. Requires lots more planning and resources. A cursory search on airliners.net offers many posts where such issues are discussed.

I agree that adding new flights takes coordination and enough funds to bring in equipment. A SpiceJet, due to the MAX grounding, had people idle. A bad expense at the quarter start is now a windfall as aircraft become available.

SpiceJet vis also quickly hiring. Prior links show 500 ex-Jet employees plus some other quantity. I see them bringing in NGs and reactivating MAXes (once a fix is in place and certified).

It will take until the end of summer to put enough new aircraft into service to reign in airfares. Cest la vie. However, Indigo and SpiceJet alone will induct enough new aircraft bin the next 2 or 3 weeks to take the edge off the worst fare hikes.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 pm

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Daring initiative by Reliance to possibly take over Jet and later Air India.

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... a/1553995/


Rule #1 of surviving: Don't base your opinions on unidentified anonymous sources.

Its pretty common to see such news flows when big fish have to dump their stocks and illusion the general public into buying them. Monitor now how 9W stock will start its day extremely positive could even be 10%+, but end in red on Monday.

You can check Pakistan airspace status here:
https://caapakistan.com.pk/NOTAMS/NotamView.aspx
Right now its closed till24th April.
6E's DEL-IST has surely seen a spike in fare with average one way for next 2 months being 25k+, what was 14k few days earlier.


Thank you.

Did Indigo also cut the number of flights from DEL to Istanbul to 1 a day from 2 a day?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
...A SpiceJet, due to the MAX grounding, had people idle.


That is not true. Many pilots were pushing 999 hours before grounding. There is an ET Prime(paywall) report by Tarun Shukla. MAX grounding would have reduced FDTL violations, but with these crew should be back to max hours. Of course, DGCA will look the other way.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:57 pm

Additional developments:

1. "Ministry of Finance has decided to waive a mandatory customs requirement, which needs Jet Airways' grounded planes in India to be first be sent to the country of registration of their lessors and then fly them back to India before they can be used by other carriers."

2. Air India Chairman met with SBI Chairman to discuss leasing 5 777W's . Air India Express may also take some 737s. In all, AI may take 10 to 12 of Jet's planes in the future. The 77Ws are intended to be operated on the following routes using "Jet's slots": Mumbai-London-Mumbai, Delhi-London-Delhi, Mumbai-Dubai-Mumbai, Delhi-Dubai-Delhi, Delhi-Singapore-Delhi" [I guess the Air India CEO isn't informed, as we are, that Jet already lost its London slots to Etihad and Virgin]. Shame on the Air India Chairman for not knowing this critical information.


https://www.businesstoday.in/current/co ... 38860.html

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 72015.html
Last edited by edealinfo on Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:06 pm

edealinfo wrote:
2. Air India Chairman met with SBI Chairman to discuss leasing 5 777W's . Air India Express may also take some 737s. In all, AI may take 10 to 12 of Jet's planes in the future.


Looking at the proposal to operate DEL-LHR, BOM-LHR, BOM-DXB, DEL-DXB, BOM-SIN there is no need for 5x77Ws. They have two AOG 77Ws and a few AOG 788s. If they lease these 5, fleet utilization will go down further.

They should just take 737s.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:09 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Jet lost a hundred pilots to SpiceJet.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 1.html/amp

I read somewhere else over 400 pilots have left Jet. Sorry I forgot to grab the link.

What is being bid on? This certainly seems like a pig in a poke. For modern business communication is key.

Lightsaber

And how many planes needed from this troubled airline into Spicejet after hiring employees from that troubled airline?
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dcajet
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:07 pm

CPS001 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
When did Jet Airways fly to SFO? Which was the route it operated?
BOM-PVG-SFO between June 2008 and Jan 2009.

FWIW, Etihad operated it's AUH-SFO service in 2014 with B77W leased from Jet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Thanks! I moved to SF from DC back in 2014 and did not recall seeing Jet Airways ever at SFO.

The BOM-PVG-SFO route seems (on paper) like it would be a sure winner. What happened to it that is was so short lived?
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