DTWLAX
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 1:10 am

hohd wrote:
AI now is in the prime position to cash in. I am sure they can get a slot at LHR for an additional flight from BOM.

Where is this LHR slot going to come from?
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 4:28 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Jet was India's #1 international carrier. It carried over 8 Million international passengers and Billions of ASKMs.

Others may grab slots, but they will never be able to fill the vacuum.


Let's see how great Spice and Indigo are. I think many felt that if Jet would go, these would rise n intl routes. It doesn't look like either airline has the stomach for true long haul. They will try and just fly 737/A320 where ever they can. Which is really sad. It just goes to show how weak Indian aviation really is. Because all these airlines rely on crony capitalism, they aren't solid companies. They are not fighting with the GOI for sane rules and taxation (local or national) because they are in bed with the GOI. I hope Vistara steps up and starts wide body long hauls. Even if it is limited and tied to a partner's hubs. I bet EY would probably lease LHR slots to them. Jet slots are totally duplicative to EY's current slots. EY will bleed on these routes.

To the above post on capacity being up and fares up - while impressive that capacity is up (because of new routes XBOM/DEL), fares are up solely because of Jet routes.


Goyal was the definition of crony capitalism. I'm unclear how the pot and its supporters keep calling the kettle black.
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binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 12:54 pm

4 bids have been received for jet airways as per SBI :
1. Etihad in collaboration with an Indian partner whose name hasn't been disclosed.
2. Cortium of Future Trend Capital and some other investors. ( That includes Jason Unsworth from Atmosphere Air which is shocking)
3. Adi Partners
4 Name not disclosed.
The last 3 in the above list have been categorised as unsolicited bids.
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 12:57 pm

SBICAPS will scrutinise the bids over the weekend
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 1:19 pm

Glad to see some bids. Now, wait until May 23.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 1:27 pm

binayak wrote:
4 bids have been received for jet airways as per SBI :
1. Etihad in collaboration with an Indian partner whose name hasn't been disclosed.
2. Cortium of Future Trend Capital and some other investors. ( That includes Jason Unsworth from Atmosphere Air which is shocking)
3. Adi Partners
4 Name not disclosed.
The last 3 in the above list have been categorised as unsolicited bids.


I am surprised that 4 people put in bids. But am most surprised that EY did. I think we can agree their bid is probably legitimate. So what gives? Why would they bid given all the reporting on this forum of Jet's debt, creditors, woes, etc. I am truly trying to understand not rehash past posts. It is much more fun to deconstruct these bids then get caught in the same back and forth as before. Appreciate if anyone has insight. Also hope Goyal is not hidden behind any of these bids.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 1:30 pm

Antarius wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Jet was India's #1 international carrier. It carried over 8 Million international passengers and Billions of ASKMs.

Others may grab slots, but they will never be able to fill the vacuum.


Let's see how great Spice and Indigo are. I think many felt that if Jet would go, these would rise n intl routes. It doesn't look like either airline has the stomach for true long haul. They will try and just fly 737/A320 where ever they can. Which is really sad. It just goes to show how weak Indian aviation really is. Because all these airlines rely on crony capitalism, they aren't solid companies. They are not fighting with the GOI for sane rules and taxation (local or national) because they are in bed with the GOI. I hope Vistara steps up and starts wide body long hauls. Even if it is limited and tied to a partner's hubs. I bet EY would probably lease LHR slots to them. Jet slots are totally duplicative to EY's current slots. EY will bleed on these routes.

To the above post on capacity being up and fares up - while impressive that capacity is up (because of new routes XBOM/DEL), fares are up solely because of Jet routes.


Goyal was the definition of crony capitalism. I'm unclear how the pot and its supporters keep calling the kettle black.


Unclear what you are trying to say or imply. I am not a Goyal supporter and haven't been for years. I am on the record on this forum of being against his 5 year rule and the damage his political connections caused Indian aviation. I would actually say there are very very few pro Goyal people on this board. There are pro Jet people. But that is very different than pro Goyal. Besides, two wrongs never make a right. What is worst is being against crony capitalism when it benefited Jet but being pro it now.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 1:32 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
binayak wrote:
4 bids have been received for jet airways as per SBI :
1. Etihad in collaboration with an Indian partner whose name hasn't been disclosed.
2. Cortium of Future Trend Capital and some other investors. ( That includes Jason Unsworth from Atmosphere Air which is shocking)
3. Adi Partners
4 Name not disclosed.
The last 3 in the above list have been categorised as unsolicited bids.


I am surprised that 4 people put in bids. But am most surprised that EY did. I think we can agree their bid is probably legitimate. So what gives? Why would they bid given all the reporting on this forum of Jet's debt, creditors, woes, etc. I am truly trying to understand not rehash past posts. It is much more fun to deconstruct these bids then get caught in the same back and forth as before. Appreciate if anyone has insight. Also hope Goyal is not hidden behind any of these bids.

Wow. I need to eat crow. In no way did I anticipate an Etihad bid.

However, the condition that the majority investor must invest the majority of the funds is significant, but fair. In no way should a minority investor be expected to invest the majority of the funds

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1SG1G2

Who is their partner?

Lightsaber
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 2:28 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
... But am most surprised that EY did. ..


Maybe it was submitted by mistake. Front desk accidentally gave it to the local courier. ;) ;)
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 2:38 pm

EY's bid is still conditional.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 2:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Glad to see some bids. Now, wait until May 23.

Why? What will happen on that day that is relevant to the bids?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 3:20 pm

EY's bid looks more like for formality sake, just to look like good guys and avoid the bad rap like they got when they abandoned the sinking ship at Air Berlin, facing a huge backlash with lawsuits against them.

In the background on the other hand here, one airline must be working extra hard using its political leverage and flexing their muscles to make sure 9W has no chance of coming back and they lose everything for good. Every day, developments show the govt is trying to dismantle the airline even though they describe the airline's situation as only temporarily suspend ops.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 3:47 pm

avier wrote:
EY's bid looks more like for formality sake, just to look like good guys and avoid the bad rap like they got when they abandoned the sinking ship at Air Berlin, facing a huge backlash with lawsuits against them.

In the background on the other hand here, one airline must be working extra hard using its political leverage and flexing their muscles to make sure 9W has no chance of coming back and they lose everything for good. Every day, developments show the govt is trying to dismantle the airline even though they describe the airline's situation as only temporarily suspend ops.


I don't know if it makes them look like a good guy. In fact if they would just walk away, this would all end and people would move on - that is a good guy. I think they either want to keep Jet OR want to be in the process incase the GOI makes big concessions.

While I agree on the favoring another airline storyline, I will say this. Even if Jet comes back, it clearly will be smaller. BOM will be the hub then DEL and very little other P2P flights in other cities. So either way other airline win big. If I was the GOI, I would be freaking out that international capacity is not coming from either Indian nor foreign airlines. India needs more tourists and business travelers not less. Plus sending the flights to the ME3 just pushes more jobs out of India and would probably mean no Indian carrier will be even a medium player internationally for the next 5-10 years. I think the GOI is in a pickle. People focused on Jet as really only a Jet/Goyal thing, in reality it is an India thing. We are looking at a situation today where, if given more seats, the ME3 will dominate BOM, BLR and a bit DEL with Indigo and Spice potentially flying narrow bodies from ATQ/AMD to LGW and BOM/DEL to IST. Great...
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 3:47 pm

avier wrote:
...

In the background on the other hand here, one airline must be working extra hard using its political leverage and flexing their muscles to make sure 9W has no chance of coming back and they lose everything for good. Every day, developments show the govt is trying to dismantle the airline even though they describe the airline's situation as only temporarily suspend ops.


I'm not privy to how Indian politics works, much less how its backroom politics work. But imagine for a second there's no political input at all, from this point on.
Do you seriously believe there is a business case to pump money into Jet Airways and relaunch it?
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 4:34 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
...
Do you seriously believe there is a business case to pump money into Jet Airways and relaunch it?


That is up to the bidders, not to sellers or government.

Let's say best bid needs 81% hair cut and rejecting all bids is 100% hair cut and any future statuary liabilities for the SBI gang(because they kicked out promoters), what would be rational to lose 100% and wait for future judgments??
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 7:26 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
...
Do you seriously believe there is a business case to pump money into Jet Airways and relaunch it?


That is up to the bidders, not to sellers or government.

Let's say best bid needs 81% hair cut and rejecting all bids is 100% hair cut and any future statuary liabilities for the SBI gang(because they kicked out promoters), what would be rational to lose 100% and wait for future judgments??


That's bank debt. What about other creditors? All those vendors, who are apparently owed hundreds of millions?
They are in peculiar position -- if Jet fails, they get scraps. If it restarts, they have a legitimate claim to 100% of the debt. And some of them have leverage to make Jet pay no matter what.
And apparently, they have no influence on what outcome of Jet sale is, but they have to deal with the consequences.
How does it factor in a potential bidders' calculations?
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avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 7:45 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Do you seriously believe there is a business case to pump money into Jet Airways and relaunch it?


Phosphorus wrote:
That's bank debt. What about other creditors? All those vendors, who are apparently owed hundreds of millions?
They are in peculiar position -- if Jet fails, they get scraps. If it restarts, they have a legitimate claim to 100% of the debt. And some of them have leverage to make Jet pay no matter what.
And apparently, they have no influence on what outcome of Jet sale is, but they have to deal with the consequences.
How does it factor in a potential bidders' calculations?


Creditors are not so foolish that they'd agree for two options of either 100% or 0% debt recovery. There's something in between
those numbers they'd have to negotiate for if they have sense. That's the way it's done in matured markets or developed countries. Now someone will jump here to say oh this is India, it's not America (Chp 11 eg.). But such options can be considered like done elsewhere if any country wants to follow best business practices to see the most valuable outcome for all. It's something better than nothing for the lenders and creditors.
Regarding you're first query on the business case, looking at the airline from purely accounting standards, there's no business case to invest. But if one is considering the larger picture of the fastest growing aviation market, huge population base, with valuable slots held etc, there would be value to it if the investors have deep pockets to restructure & make things right for long term gains.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 8:55 pm

avier wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Do you seriously believe there is a business case to pump money into Jet Airways and relaunch it?


Phosphorus wrote:
That's bank debt. What about other creditors? All those vendors, who are apparently owed hundreds of millions?
They are in peculiar position -- if Jet fails, they get scraps. If it restarts, they have a legitimate claim to 100% of the debt. And some of them have leverage to make Jet pay no matter what.
And apparently, they have no influence on what outcome of Jet sale is, but they have to deal with the consequences.
How does it factor in a potential bidders' calculations?


Creditors are not so foolish that they'd agree for two options of either 100% or 0% debt recovery. There's something in between
those numbers they'd have to negotiate for if they have sense. That's the way it's done in matured markets or developed countries. Now someone will jump here to say oh this is India, it's not America (Chp 11 eg.). But such options can be considered like done elsewhere if any country wants to follow best business practices to see the most valuable outcome for all. It's something better than nothing for the lenders and creditors.
Regarding you're first query on the business case, looking at the airline from purely accounting standards, there's no business case to invest. But if one is considering the larger picture of the fastest growing aviation market, huge population base, with valuable slots held etc, there would be value to it if the investors have deep pockets to restructure & make things right for long term gains.


Agreed. We also don't know how badly the lessors will want to place planes with new Jet (maybe they are willing to deal). Also DL/AF/KL maybe willing to give new jet a contract for cheap seats EU-USA to help resurrect Jet. There are a lot of levers that can be pulled. But agin all of these bids could be fake or worthless. We never know. The EY bid is the one I am most interested in.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 10:16 pm

avier wrote:
Creditors are not so foolish that they'd agree for two options of either 100% or 0% debt recovery. There's something in between
those numbers they'd have to negotiate for if they have sense. ...


Ahh, that's the rub. no-bank creditors are not being negotiated with, are they? They are in a very high-risk, high-reward scenario, and someone else is playing; they are the observers.
Either
1) no buyers show up -- these creditors are losing most of it, and their readiness to compromise is irrelevant.
2) a buyer shows up, and hammers out a deal with banks -- and puts the money up. This buyer is now invested, and probably will not abandon this investment over a disagreement with a small creditor. So what's the point for this creditor to compromise at this stage?

Gaming this situation, readiness to compromise, from these non-bank creditors, appears a non-factor, on the surface, to the sale process, correct?
So why should they compromise?
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 10:34 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
avier wrote:
Creditors are not so foolish that they'd agree for two options of either 100% or 0% debt recovery. There's something in between
those numbers they'd have to negotiate for if they have sense. ...


Ahh, that's the rub. no-bank creditors are not being negotiated with, are they? They are in a very high-risk, high-reward scenario, and someone else is playing; they are the observers.
Either
1) no buyers show up -- these creditors are losing most of it, and their readiness to compromise is irrelevant.
2) a buyer shows up, and hammers out a deal with banks -- and puts the money up. This buyer is now invested, and probably will not abandon this investment over a disagreement with a small creditor. So what's the point for this creditor to compromise at this stage?

Gaming this situation, readiness to compromise, from these non-bank creditors, appears a non-factor, on the surface, to the sale process, correct?
So why should they compromise?


The larger ones might for future business from new jet. True small creditors are probably worth just paying off. Btw there is nothing to stop the banks from reaching out to large creditors and seeing if they will negotiate before the sale is closed
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Fri May 10, 2019 11:09 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
...
Do you seriously believe there is a business case to pump money into Jet Airways and relaunch it?


That is up to the bidders, not to sellers or government.

Let's say best bid needs 81% hair cut and rejecting all bids is 100% hair cut and any future statuary liabilities for the SBI gang(because they kicked out promoters), what would be rational to lose 100% and wait for future judgments??


That's bank debt. What about other creditors? All those vendors, who are apparently owed hundreds of millions?
They are in peculiar position -- if Jet fails, they get scraps. If it restarts, they have a legitimate claim to 100% of the debt. And some of them have leverage to make Jet pay no matter what.
And apparently, they have no influence on what outcome of Jet sale is, but they have to deal with the consequences.
How does it factor in a potential bidders' calculations?


Ok, assuming that with the exception of my posts, every other post on this thread is filled with facts and logic.

SBI is the cartel leader. The day it forced promoter and 24.9% owner Etihad, it owns the place. Sure anyone can sue Goyal and EY, but they didn't suspend the airline.

It is SBI led cartel's responsible to wind up the place and pay employees, lessors, vendors and everyone else.

SBI and the cartel can decide how big haircut they want to take out of 8,500 Crores. If ICICI has 500 Crores in the hole would it take 65 Crores or ZERO Crores?

With most planes repoed now the liability part of the plane is gone. Jet still owes pending rentals to lessors, say for 3-6 months.

If you read up thread, lessors were forced to pay vendors(separate debate) to de/re-register, so those dues also cleared up. The vendor is not going collect those from JetV2(if any).

For me, Jet's books started looking a lot better than the day it went down. All Jet's new owner need is to clear past lease payments to start international operations. They don't need to do that for just domestic operations, just need a new lessor.

Imagine a lessor filing a claim against JetV2 in Dutch, British or French court for the vendor bills they paid in India which they shouldn't have.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 3:00 am

Antarius wrote:
Goyal was the definition of crony capitalism. I'm unclear how the pot and its supporters keep calling the kettle black.


You have it wrong! Govt not bailing out NG is crony capitalism.

If 9W doesn’t fly and others take away its market share is favoring other airlines.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 1:29 pm

Well, here are SBI Chairman's comments on Jet Airways debt.

Reporter: In your corporate slippages.. mentioned about 1,200 Crore worth of loans from the aviation sector. Is that the one account[Jet] we are all thinking about?

SBI Chairman: That is your... I don't have any other aviation sector [laughs] exposure also, you can guess whatever you want to... It adds 7 BPS to my gross NPAs. So don't worry about Jet Airways [impact on SBI]. In the loan book of 2,300,000 Crores in loans, 1,600 Crores comes precisely to 7BPS on gross NPAs(bad debts). It is not worth discussing. But I agree SBI being the leader of the consortium has made a disproportionate effort to keep it flying. Otherwise, if this was any other account we would have not even be bothered about it [an entry-level accountant would write-off this bad debt]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dfrM1e7L4g
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 2:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Well, here are SBI Chairman's comments on Jet Airways debt.

Reporter: In your corporate slippages.. mentioned about 1,200 Crore worth of loans from the aviation sector. Is that the one account[Jet] we are all thinking about?

SBI Chairman: That is your... I don't have any other aviation sector [laughs] exposure also, you can guess whatever you want to... It adds 7 BPS to my gross NPAs. So don't worry about Jet Airways [impact on SBI]. In the loan book of 2,300,000 Crores in loans, 1,600 Crores comes precisely to 7BPS on gross NPAs(bad debts). It is not worth discussing. But I agree SBI being the leader of the consortium has made a disproportionate effort to keep it flying. Otherwise, if this was any other account we would have not even be bothered about it [an entry-level accountant would write-off this bad debt]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dfrM1e7L4g


And that SBI chairman clearly doesn't seem to care whether Jet survives or not, or whether the loans turn NPA's or not, afterall it's a tiny amount compared to the NPA's from other bankrupt cos. or fraud individuals. ;)
This is Indian banking and their heads with the most lackadaisical attitude and will be completely unaccountable for whatever actions they take.
 
blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 4:04 pm

avier wrote:
And that SBI chairman clearly doesn't seem to care whether Jet survives or not, or whether the loans turn NPA's or not, afterall it's a tiny amount compared to the NPA's from other bankrupt cos. or fraud individuals. ;)
This is Indian banking and their heads with the most lackadaisical attitude and will be completely unaccountable for whatever actions they take.


SBI chairman was talking about total loans of 2,300,000 crores, all that is not NPAs :roll: And 1300 crores of that total is for Jet airways
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 4:10 pm

blrsea wrote:
avier wrote:
And that SBI chairman clearly doesn't seem to care whether Jet survives or not, or whether the loans turn NPA's or not, afterall it's a tiny amount compared to the NPA's from other bankrupt cos. or fraud individuals. ;)
This is Indian banking and their heads with the most lackadaisical attitude and will be completely unaccountable for whatever actions they take.


SBI chairman was talking about total loans of 2,300,000 crores, all that is not NPAs :roll: And 1300 crores of that total is for Jet airways


And I was neither referring to or made any reference to that amount as being the total NPA's of SBI, but through whatever media provides us of fugitives and bankrupt cos owing State banks like SBI and others that eventually turn into NPA's, which is far larger than what 9W owes them. :|
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 4:24 pm

avier wrote:


And that SBI chairman clearly doesn't seem to care whether Jet survives or not, or whether the loans turn NPA's or not, afterall it's a tiny amount compared to the NPA's from other bankrupt cos. or fraud individuals. ;)
This is Indian banking and their heads with the most lackadaisical attitude and will be completely unaccountable for whatever actions they take.


He is a banker. He is only concern should be trying recover whatever money he can. Survival of Jet Airways is not his concern at all. I fail to understand how he is at fault here.

I know it is open season in these forums to bash Indian banks and bankers, while there are a lot of genuine concerns about them, their actions have been impeccable vis a vis Jet Airways
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 4:34 pm

blrsea wrote:
avier wrote:
And that SBI chairman clearly doesn't seem to care whether Jet survives or not, or whether the loans turn NPA's or not, afterall it's a tiny amount compared to the NPA's from other bankrupt cos. or fraud individuals. ;)
This is Indian banking and their heads with the most lackadaisical attitude and will be completely unaccountable for whatever actions they take.


SBI chairman was talking about total loans of 2,300,000 crores, all that is not NPAs :roll: And 1300 crores of that total is for Jet airways


Ya, but his comment was, Jet's NPA is not worth discussing compared to his gross NPAs.

That is contrary to a.net financial experts consensus opinion, "this is huge".
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 4:46 pm

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Let's say best bid needs 81% hair cut and rejecting all bids is 100% hair cut and any future statuary liabilities for the SBI gang(because they kicked out promoters), what would be rational to lose 100% and wait for future judgments??

For the benefit of the reasonable readers of this thread: SBI or any other bank does not own a single share of Jet Airways. They are not accountable for a single rupee of Jet's liabilities.

Remember kids: Always FACTCHECK.


Huh they are above the equity holders. They should want to get as much money back as they can. Which normally means negotiating with other debtors, taking haircuts on the debt, and then selling off the whole or prices. What does equity have to do with that? Equity holders really have no say here. Look I am totally confused about how indian insolvency works. But I feel like you keep interpreting selling Jet’s assets off as saving Jet. Old Jet is dead. Could someone buy what is left of Jet and bring back Jet, sure but it will not be Goyal controlled.

The SBI’s comments look to me like they have no intention of selling anything or recovering anything. They want other airlines to pick up Jet’s pieces for free. And it looks like the GOI won’t hold the public sector bank heads accountable for the debt losses. Btw the govt is doing no favor to a new buyer by taking haircuts of Jet’s debt. Something is always better than nothing. But in india it seems nothing is better than something because people’s cronies benefit. Very disappointed in the current govt.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 4:53 pm

unrave wrote:
He is a banker. He is only concern should be trying recover whatever money he can.


And he lacks that concern too; of trying to recover the money. That's my point. The video and the way he speaks about it, suggests it all.
So no need to hail the great banker here. I also fail to see what's so right about him and his attitude.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 5:07 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Ya, but his comment was, Jet's NPA is not worth discussing compared to his gross NPAs.

That is contrary to a.net financial experts consensus opinion, "this is huge".

It is 7 bps. A tiny amount. Masters in Computer Science experts were saying it would bring down Indias banking system if Jet fails.
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dtw2hyd
Posts: 6959
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 5:21 pm

Jet had $3.83 Billion(27,000 Crores) in annual revenue.
23,000 Jobs (150,000 including family members)

Whatever Jet was spending was adding to the economy. Whatever employees were spending added to the economy. That is gone forever.

Indian Taxpayers lost 8,500 Crores anyway.

The hypothetical savings is ONE TIME 1,500 Crores, by not giving the loan.

You don't need to be a.net financial expert to see the impact on the economy.
 
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unrave
Posts: 2388
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 5:23 pm

avier wrote:


And he lacks that concern too; of trying to recover the money. That's my point. The video and the way he speaks about it, suggests it all.
So no need to hail the great banker here. I also fail to see what's so right about him and his attitude.

Because in the grand scheme of things of Indian banking Jet failure is of only minor significance. SBI chairman has a lot of things to worry about than a 1600 cr default.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
User avatar
unrave
Posts: 2388
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 5:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Jet had $3.83 Billion(27,000 Crores) in annual revenue.
23,000 Jobs (150,000 including family members)

Whatever Jet was spending was adding to the economy. Whatever employees were spending added to the economy. That is gone forever.

Indian Taxpayers lost 8,500 Crores anyway.

The hypothetical savings is ONE TIME 1,500 Crores, by not giving the loan.

You don't need to be a.net financial expert to see the impact on the economy.


I would recommend Masters of Computer Science course to add a chapter on sunk cost fallacy. Oh wait, they should first teach the difference between revenue and profits.

And while they are at it they should also include a discussion on the impact of loss of 23000 jobs on a $3 trillion economy.

General readers should note that the lost revenue will be picked up by other airlines. If SBI had given loan of 1500 cr the ailine would have run for a few weeks and then come to banks demanding additional funds. Then some expert in Masters of Molecular Biology will put forth the same argument to justify more funding.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
vadodara
Posts: 861
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 7:34 pm

avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
He is a banker. He is only concern should be trying recover whatever money he can.


And he lacks that concern too; of trying to recover the money. That's my point. The video and the way he speaks about it, suggests it all.
So no need to hail the great banker here. I also fail to see what's so right about him and his attitude.


Your point is NG should have been bailed out because he had a great business case.

If that was the case why didn’t he shop around?

He could have checked out Bank of Dawood as well! After all he has done business in the past and perhaps has stellar credit rating as well!
 
zionite
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:18 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sat May 11, 2019 9:33 pm

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Jet had $3.83 Billion(27,000 Crores) in annual revenue.
23,000 Jobs (150,000 including family members)

Whatever Jet was spending was adding to the economy. Whatever employees were spending added to the economy. That is gone forever.

Indian Taxpayers lost 8,500 Crores anyway.

The hypothetical savings is ONE TIME 1,500 Crores, by not giving the loan.

You don't need to be a.net financial expert to see the impact on the economy.


I would recommend Masters of Computer Science course to add a chapter on sunk cost fallacy. Oh wait, they should first teach the difference between revenue and profits.

And while they are at it they should also include a discussion on the impact of loss of 23000 jobs on a $3 trillion economy.

General readers should note that the lost revenue will be picked up by other airlines. If SBI had given loan of 1500 cr the ailine would have run for a few weeks and then come to banks demanding additional funds. Then some expert in Masters of Molecular Biology will put forth the same argument to justify more funding.


23000 jobs...

Hundreds of pilots have already been taken up other airlines.
Nothing much in press, but many of the other crew members are also taken up. A new job with a pay cut is still better than no job.

Relatively smaller number of people would find difficulty in getting a new job after working with Jet for decades due to their age.

The employee's spending is a almost zero effect on the economy.
 
avier
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 5:45 am

vadodara wrote:
Your point is NG should have been bailed out because he had a great business case.

No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 9:54 am

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Your point is NG should have been bailed out because he had a great business case.

No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.


Except SBI isnt a conglomerate of yahoos who've lost money perennially, like Air India. It's an actual bank listed on the stock market that actually posts P&L and actually turns profits too.

Had they bailed out 9W, it would call into question their lack of fiduciary Duty more than not doing anything. Once we peel the layers of emotion out of it, 9W is a teeny tiny NPA is a massive portfolio to SBI. That's it.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 487
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 11:26 am

Antarius wrote:
Had they bailed out 9W, it would call into question their lack of fiduciary Duty more than not doing anything. Once we peel the layers of emotion out of it, 9W is a teeny tiny NPA is a massive portfolio to SBI. That's it.


One thing that apparently many posters here miss is the bank bureaucrats like to layer up their protection for NPA scenarios. There are multiple ways to CYA for officers, assigned to the case, and most of these ways highly favour the valor of NOT increasing the exposure.
Among other points, an obvious factor is "bad loans happened not on my watch". But recommending fresh loans to a delinquent customer are like putting a "target" bulls-eye on one's back. Because it's not only "throwing good money after bad", it's a tacit retroactive approval of previous loans (once you believe the customer will pay the fresh loan, you obviously believe he'll pay back the older ones, too).
So a brave case officer, advocating a fresh loan to support a customer in difficulty, becomes in a way responsible for the existing (problematic) loan portfolio. Very poor choice for one's career.
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CaliguyNYC
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 1:17 pm

Antarius wrote:
avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Your point is NG should have been bailed out because he had a great business case.

No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.


Except SBI isnt a conglomerate of yahoos who've lost money perennially, like Air India. It's an actual bank listed on the stock market that actually posts P&L and actually turns profits too.

Had they bailed out 9W, it would call into question their lack of fiduciary Duty more than not doing anything. Once we peel the layers of emotion out of it, 9W is a teeny tiny NPA is a massive portfolio to SBI. That's it.


Why do you consider selling Jet without all its debt a bailout. Jet is dead. Goyal is out. I don’t think most people here wanted the banks to give Goyal more money. Now that he is out, the banks and SNI should at least try to recover their money. But no the SBI head says he is not concerned. How weird is that? From PanAm to Air Berlin, the pieces were sold off. With Jet people here just say shut it down. So bizarre. The SBI head is clearly just doing what he is told. That is the unaccountable part. He literally will ensure they recover zero, yes zero. I am willing to bet the govt is not happy at the four bids that were received on Jet. Let’s see what they say next week. Let’s bet now, the banks will be very negative. They will make it seem like the bidders are asking for too many concessions. So instead of getting even 10% back they will get zero. Remember Zero will be the theme when it comes to jet.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 1:19 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Had they bailed out 9W, it would call into question their lack of fiduciary Duty more than not doing anything. Once we peel the layers of emotion out of it, 9W is a teeny tiny NPA is a massive portfolio to SBI. That's it.


One thing that apparently many posters here miss is the bank bureaucrats like to layer up their protection for NPA scenarios. There are multiple ways to CYA for officers, assigned to the case, and most of these ways highly favour the valor of NOT increasing the exposure.
Among other points, an obvious factor is "bad loans happened not on my watch". But recommending fresh loans to a delinquent customer are like putting a "target" bulls-eye on one's back. Because it's not only "throwing good money after bad", it's a tacit retroactive approval of previous loans (once you believe the customer will pay the fresh loan, you obviously believe he'll pay back the older ones, too).
So a brave case officer, advocating a fresh loan to support a customer in difficulty, becomes in a way responsible for the existing (problematic) loan portfolio. Very poor choice for one's career.


Again no one is saying to give more loans. They are saying the banks need to restructure the debt and sell Jet with a much lower debt burden so that the banks can recover something - not Goyal. He should get nothing
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2237
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 1:32 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
avier wrote:
No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.


Except SBI isnt a conglomerate of yahoos who've lost money perennially, like Air India. It's an actual bank listed on the stock market that actually posts P&L and actually turns profits too.

Had they bailed out 9W, it would call into question their lack of fiduciary Duty more than not doing anything. Once we peel the layers of emotion out of it, 9W is a teeny tiny NPA is a massive portfolio to SBI. That's it.


Why do you consider selling Jet without all its debt a bailout. Jet is dead. Goyal is out. I don’t think most people here wanted the banks to give Goyal more money. Now that he is out, the banks and SNI should at least try to recover their money. But no the SBI head says he is not concerned. How weird is that? From PanAm to Air Berlin, the pieces were sold off. With Jet people here just say shut it down. So bizarre. The SBI head is clearly just doing what he is told. That is the unaccountable part. He literally will ensure they recover zero, yes zero. I am willing to bet the govt is not happy at the four bids that were received on Jet. Let’s see what they say next week. Let’s bet now, the banks will be very negative. They will make it seem like the bidders are asking for too many concessions. So instead of getting even 10% back they will get zero. Remember Zero will be the theme when it comes to jet.


The banks will try to recover as much money as possible by selling off the assets that are secured by their loans.

They don’t need to sell the enterprise as a whole in order to get some money back.

The unsecured creditors and the equity holders will likely get nothing.

This bidding is only to see if the banks can get a little bit more than liquidation value....and that is unlikely.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 6959
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 1:42 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
...
One thing that apparently many posters here miss is the bank bureaucrats like to layer up their protection for NPA scenarios. There are multiple ways to CYA for officers, assigned to the case, and most of these ways highly favour the valor of NOT increasing the exposure.
Among other points, an obvious factor is "bad loans happened not on my watch". But recommending fresh loans to a delinquent customer are like putting a "target" bulls-eye on one's back. Because it's not only "throwing good money after bad", it's a tacit retroactive approval of previous loans (once you believe the customer will pay the fresh loan, you obviously believe he'll pay back the older ones, too).
So a brave case officer, advocating a fresh loan to support a customer in difficulty, becomes in a way responsible for the existing (problematic) loan portfolio. Very poor choice for one's career.


So many a.net twisted facts and definitions. Let me try in the form of simple questions.

Who is SBI?
A lender took over control of the company by throwing out BODs
An outsourced consultant managing the sale process

What is A.net definition of the bailout, which is being frequently BLTed.
Is it in reference to 8500 Cr? That is gone, very little chance of recovering with SBI's skillset.
Is it in reference to 1500 Cr new loan? No one is expecting SBI cartel to give new loans.

Tiny (vs) Huge impact
1200 Cr NPA on SBI gross NPAs - Tiny
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 3:45 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
...
One thing that apparently many posters here miss is the bank bureaucrats like to layer up their protection for NPA scenarios. There are multiple ways to CYA for officers, assigned to the case, and most of these ways highly favour the valor of NOT increasing the exposure.
Among other points, an obvious factor is "bad loans happened not on my watch". But recommending fresh loans to a delinquent customer are like putting a "target" bulls-eye on one's back. Because it's not only "throwing good money after bad", it's a tacit retroactive approval of previous loans (once you believe the customer will pay the fresh loan, you obviously believe he'll pay back the older ones, too).
So a brave case officer, advocating a fresh loan to support a customer in difficulty, becomes in a way responsible for the existing (problematic) loan portfolio. Very poor choice for one's career.


So many a.net twisted facts and definitions. Let me try in the form of simple questions.

Who is SBI?
A lender took over control of the company by throwing out BODs
An outsourced consultant managing the sale process

What is A.net definition of the bailout, which is being frequently BLTed.
Is it in reference to 8500 Cr? That is gone, very little chance of recovering with SBI's skillset.
Is it in reference to 1500 Cr new loan? No one is expecting SBI cartel to give new loans.

Tiny (vs) Huge impact
1200 Cr NPA on SBI gross NPAs - Tiny
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity. Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 16991
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 3:57 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
...
One thing that apparently many posters here miss is the bank bureaucrats like to layer up their protection for NPA scenarios. There are multiple ways to CYA for officers, assigned to the case, and most of these ways highly favour the valor of NOT increasing the exposure.
Among other points, an obvious factor is "bad loans happened not on my watch". But recommending fresh loans to a delinquent customer are like putting a "target" bulls-eye on one's back. Because it's not only "throwing good money after bad", it's a tacit retroactive approval of previous loans (once you believe the customer will pay the fresh loan, you obviously believe he'll pay back the older ones, too).
So a brave case officer, advocating a fresh loan to support a customer in difficulty, becomes in a way responsible for the existing (problematic) loan portfolio. Very poor choice for one's career.


So many a.net twisted facts and definitions. Let me try in the form of simple questions.

Who is SBI?
A lender took over control of the company by throwing out BODs
An outsourced consultant managing the sale process

What is A.net definition of the bailout, which is being frequently BLTed.
Is it in reference to 8500 Cr? That is gone, very little chance of recovering with SBI's skillset.
Is it in reference to 1500 Cr new loan? No one is expecting SBI cartel to give new loans.

Tiny (vs) Huge impact
1200 Cr NPA on SBI gross NPAs - Tiny
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity. Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.

Skyteam will partner with someone else. It might be SpiceJet or Vistara.

Replacing long haul takes time. Last I looked, Vistara has widebody orders to replace. Jumping in too fast to widebody aircraft purchases is a fast path to bankruptcy. Core strengths are core regidities.

Indigo will buy longer range A321. This will be longer term. Cest la vie.

The 13,000 seats per week to Dubai are returned, the international pain will be less. Personally, I think the AUH hubbing strategy was failing (too low of yield to be profitable). The flights to Europe will take time. I'm sure flights to SIN will happen soon. Whenever the rights are released.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
Bhadra
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:21 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 7:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Do you have any statistical evidence to prove your claim? I'd be interested in numbers if you have any.

From my perspective, Jet going out of business (and letting it go out of business by not throwing good money after bad) is good for larger economy in the medium to long term. That is due to the fact that more efficient corporations are bound to replace a failed, inefficient one.

I'm aware of near term reduction in traffic out of Mumbai, but I can't see it impacting the economy of India outside the geographic region of greater Mumbai. Even the local impact could only be limited to the tourism ecosystem of that city.

I haven't seen anyone providing meaningful data showing any impact on the larger economy (either in Mumbai or outside) and I'd be very interested in seeing some numbers. All I hear is emotional outburst and a whole lot of rhetoric by fan boys. It's time for the boys to grow up. Businesses fail and they are meant to fail. It's a good thing.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 7:42 pm

Bhadra wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Do you have any statistical evidence to prove your claim? I'd be interested in numbers if you have any.

From my perspective, Jet going out of business (and letting it go out of business by not throwing good money after bad) is good for larger economy in the medium to long term. That is due to the fact that more efficient corporations are bound to replace a failed, inefficient one.

I'm aware of near term reduction in traffic out of Mumbai, but I can't see it impacting the economy of India outside the geographic region of greater Mumbai. Even the local impact could only be limited to the tourism ecosystem of that city.

I haven't seen anyone providing meaningful data showing any impact on the larger economy (either in Mumbai or outside) and I'd be very interested in seeing some numbers. All I hear is emotional outburst and a whole lot of rhetoric by fan boys. It's time for the boys to grow up. Businesses fail and they are meant to fail. It's a good thing.


He never does have evidence. This entire thread is wild claims and people clamoring for sources.
Last edited by Antarius on Sun May 12, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
Antarius
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 7:45 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
...
One thing that apparently many posters here miss is the bank bureaucrats like to layer up their protection for NPA scenarios. There are multiple ways to CYA for officers, assigned to the case, and most of these ways highly favour the valor of NOT increasing the exposure.
Among other points, an obvious factor is "bad loans happened not on my watch". But recommending fresh loans to a delinquent customer are like putting a "target" bulls-eye on one's back. Because it's not only "throwing good money after bad", it's a tacit retroactive approval of previous loans (once you believe the customer will pay the fresh loan, you obviously believe he'll pay back the older ones, too).
So a brave case officer, advocating a fresh loan to support a customer in difficulty, becomes in a way responsible for the existing (problematic) loan portfolio. Very poor choice for one's career.


So many a.net twisted facts and definitions. Let me try in the form of simple questions.

Who is SBI?
A lender took over control of the company by throwing out BODs
An outsourced consultant managing the sale process

What is A.net definition of the bailout, which is being frequently BLTed.
Is it in reference to 8500 Cr? That is gone, very little chance of recovering with SBI's skillset.
Is it in reference to 1500 Cr new loan? No one is expecting SBI cartel to give new loans.

Tiny (vs) Huge impact
1200 Cr NPA on SBI gross NPAs - Tiny
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity. Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.


Again, what's your plan? In one post you say that the lenders should try to recoup value on an NPA. Here you bemoan 9W disappearing...

What is left to sell of 9W, even without the debt? Slots will be returned and reallocated, aircraft are all gone. All you have is a brand name that's worthless now.

9W failed on it's own accord. Does it suck when the market corrects itself in the short term, yes. Such is life everywhere. Others will fill the place as they have so far.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
smartplane
Posts: 767
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 8:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge

Would have been if they had been paying bank fees and interest, suppliers and employees almost until the last day.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 9:06 pm

Antarius wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

So many a.net twisted facts and definitions. Let me try in the form of simple questions.

Who is SBI?
A lender took over control of the company by throwing out BODs
An outsourced consultant managing the sale process

What is A.net definition of the bailout, which is being frequently BLTed.
Is it in reference to 8500 Cr? That is gone, very little chance of recovering with SBI's skillset.
Is it in reference to 1500 Cr new loan? No one is expecting SBI cartel to give new loans.

Tiny (vs) Huge impact
1200 Cr NPA on SBI gross NPAs - Tiny
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity. Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.


Again, what's your plan? In one post you say that the lenders should try to recoup value on an NPA. Here you bemoan 9W disappearing...

What is left to sell of 9W, even without the debt? Slots will be returned and reallocated, aircraft are all gone. All you have is a brand name that's worthless now.

9W failed on it's own accord. Does it suck when the market corrects itself in the short term, yes. Such is life everywhere. Others will fill the place as they have so far.


Also, to add, it isnt like we want 9W to fail or are super gleeful that they did.
1. Many of us saw this coming for a long time. So we knew it would happen
2. I personally am glad the government did not get involved.

Having traveled to India several times over the years and having to fly Air India occasionally (or *shudder* Alliance Air), the government is clearly incapable of handling an airline.

IMO, the key takeaways here are
1. The regulations and taxes for aviation in India are not business friendly (known, but highlighted again)
2. India needs better bankruptcy laws.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX

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