CaliguyNYC
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 11:56 pm

Antarius wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

So many a.net twisted facts and definitions. Let me try in the form of simple questions.

Who is SBI?
A lender took over control of the company by throwing out BODs
An outsourced consultant managing the sale process

What is A.net definition of the bailout, which is being frequently BLTed.
Is it in reference to 8500 Cr? That is gone, very little chance of recovering with SBI's skillset.
Is it in reference to 1500 Cr new loan? No one is expecting SBI cartel to give new loans.

Tiny (vs) Huge impact
1200 Cr NPA on SBI gross NPAs - Tiny
9W going out of business on Indian economy - Huge


Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity. Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.


Again, what's your plan? In one post you say that the lenders should try to recoup value on an NPA. Here you bemoan 9W disappearing...

What is left to sell of 9W, even without the debt? Slots will be returned and reallocated, aircraft are all gone. All you have is a brand name that's worthless now.

9W failed on it's own accord. Does it suck when the market corrects itself in the short term, yes. Such is life everywhere. Others will fill the place as they have so far.


Clearly there is something of value or 4 groups would not have bid. What do you think they bid on? The notion that Jet would just be shut down is such a waste of value and one of those “only in india things.” The issue for the GOI is: do they provide the needed creditor relief to the new Jet owner. If they can, they recover some of the money. But yes the temporary slots that were granted would have to be given back in October. If they can’t give relief, the banks recover nothing, Jet folds and the other airlines keep the slots. But I bet non GOI banks would think twice in giving loans as you basically can’t sell off the pieces of a business. India becomes a binary world of save it all or save nothing.
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Sun May 12, 2019 11:59 pm

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Your point is NG should have been bailed out because he had a great business case.

No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.


Not defending SBI but 9W does not have a case to blame anyone.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 12:12 am

vadodara wrote:
avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:
Your point is NG should have been bailed out because he had a great business case.

No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.


Not defending SBI but 9W does not have a case to blame anyone.


You are missing the point. The banks removed Goyal. That was a 100% correct. The point we are trying to make is that the banks seem to not care about recovering any money. They don’t care and don’t have a plan. Reason, they won’t lose their jobs. It looks like the GOI wants Jet to just close. So the banks are following along. Let’s see what the feedback is on the bids. But I suspect things got a bot harder for the GOI because 4 groups including EY bid. How will they explain that they can’t meet say EYs demands on restructuring.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 12:14 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity. Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.


Again, what's your plan? In one post you say that the lenders should try to recoup value on an NPA. Here you bemoan 9W disappearing...

What is left to sell of 9W, even without the debt? Slots will be returned and reallocated, aircraft are all gone. All you have is a brand name that's worthless now.

9W failed on it's own accord. Does it suck when the market corrects itself in the short term, yes. Such is life everywhere. Others will fill the place as they have so far.


Clearly there is something of value or 4 groups would not have bid. What do you think they bid on? The notion that Jet would just be shut down is such a waste of value and one of those “only in india things.” The issue for the GOI is: do they provide the needed creditor relief to the new Jet owner. If they can, they recover some of the money. But yes the temporary slots that were granted would have to be given back in October. If they can’t give relief, the banks recover nothing, Jet folds and the other airlines keep the slots. But I bet non GOI banks would think twice in giving loans as you basically can’t sell off the pieces of a business. India becomes a binary world of save it all or save nothing.


Why do you keep saying that the banks will recover nothing if Jet is not sold?

Banks will recover the liquidated value of the collateralized assets behind their loans. They will be much better off than unsecured creditors.

The banks cannot provide relief from the other creditors that they do not represent.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 12:20 am

DLPMMM wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Again, what's your plan? In one post you say that the lenders should try to recoup value on an NPA. Here you bemoan 9W disappearing...

What is left to sell of 9W, even without the debt? Slots will be returned and reallocated, aircraft are all gone. All you have is a brand name that's worthless now.

9W failed on it's own accord. Does it suck when the market corrects itself in the short term, yes. Such is life everywhere. Others will fill the place as they have so far.


Clearly there is something of value or 4 groups would not have bid. What do you think they bid on? The notion that Jet would just be shut down is such a waste of value and one of those “only in india things.” The issue for the GOI is: do they provide the needed creditor relief to the new Jet owner. If they can, they recover some of the money. But yes the temporary slots that were granted would have to be given back in October. If they can’t give relief, the banks recover nothing, Jet folds and the other airlines keep the slots. But I bet non GOI banks would think twice in giving loans as you basically can’t sell off the pieces of a business. India becomes a binary world of save it all or save nothing.


Why do you keep saying that the banks will recover nothing if Jet is not sold?

Banks will recover the liquidated value of the collateralized assets behind their loans. They will be much better off than unsecured creditors.

The banks cannot provide relief from the other creditors that they do not represent.


They could do that in the sale process. But it seems like Indian bankruptcy doesn’t easily allow this. So by the time they can actually liquidate almost nothing will be left. I am by no means an expert on this just going by what others in this forum have said. Happy to be proven wrong.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 1:24 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity.

This statement pretty much sums up the reasons behind my complaints: what a load of falsehood. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
MoCA is currently holding discussions with all Indian airline regarding how to equitably distribute Jet's international rights. Each airline has its own idea on how to do it and in the absence of a consensus the first meeting was adjourned. In the coming days and weeks it will be taken up again and sooner than later all of Jet's international rights will be redistributed. It is in this context that Vistara is leasing WB aircraft previously operated by Jet.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 1:33 am

unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity.

This statement pretty much sums up the reasons behind my complaints: what a load of falsehood. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
MoCA is currently holding discussions with all Indian airline regarding how to equitably distribute Jet's international rights. Each airline has its own idea on how to do it and in the absence of a consensus the first meeting was adjourned. In the coming days and weeks it will be taken up again and sooner than later all of Jet's international rights will be redistributed. It is in this context that Vistara is leasing WB aircraft previously operated by Jet.


Who cares about DXB and SIN. Those are the only cities that are maxed out and the only cities the airlines are talking about. That said, Those will get sorted. I have been talking about true long haul wide body flying. EU, USA, Canada could all be started today if Spice and Indigo wanted. Those are the routes that need lift asap.
 
DLPMMM
Posts: 2237
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 1:41 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Clearly there is something of value or 4 groups would not have bid. What do you think they bid on? The notion that Jet would just be shut down is such a waste of value and one of those “only in india things.” The issue for the GOI is: do they provide the needed creditor relief to the new Jet owner. If they can, they recover some of the money. But yes the temporary slots that were granted would have to be given back in October. If they can’t give relief, the banks recover nothing, Jet folds and the other airlines keep the slots. But I bet non GOI banks would think twice in giving loans as you basically can’t sell off the pieces of a business. India becomes a binary world of save it all or save nothing.


Why do you keep saying that the banks will recover nothing if Jet is not sold?

Banks will recover the liquidated value of the collateralized assets behind their loans. They will be much better off than unsecured creditors.

The banks cannot provide relief from the other creditors that they do not represent.


They could do that in the sale process. But it seems like Indian bankruptcy doesn’t easily allow this. So by the time they can actually liquidate almost nothing will be left. I am by no means an expert on this just going by what others in this forum have said. Happy to be proven wrong.


Your statement makes no sense. The collateralized assets held by the banks are not going anywhere until the banks sell them off (liquidating the collateralized assets) and collect the monies from the sale. The assets’ values are unlikely to change much at this point. We are talking about hard assets here, like the owned aircraft, the ground handling equipment, the desks and computers....the only collateralized assets that I know of which are worthless in liquidation are the shares put up as collateral by NG. This is what the banks are finding out with the bidding process.

Liquidating any other non collateralized assets owned by Jet and liquidating the company in it’s entirety is unrelated to the banks’ position except if the shares can be sold as an ongoing concern, but then the banks would have to forego collecting and monies from liquidating the collateralized assets.

So the banks would have to get more from selling the shares than from liquidating the collateralized assets.

That is the calculations being done by the banks.

Is that more clear for you now?
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 1:46 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Who cares about DXB and SIN. Those are the only cities that are maxed out and the only cities the airlines are talking about. That said, Those will get sorted. I have been talking about true long haul wide body flying. EU, USA, Canada could all be started today if Spice and Indigo wanted. Those are the routes that need lift asap.

Why will SG and 6E start long haul international flying now all of a sudden? That is the realm of AI and UK.
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Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 2:48 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
unrave wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity.

This statement pretty much sums up the reasons behind my complaints: what a load of falsehood. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
MoCA is currently holding discussions with all Indian airline regarding how to equitably distribute Jet's international rights. Each airline has its own idea on how to do it and in the absence of a consensus the first meeting was adjourned. In the coming days and weeks it will be taken up again and sooner than later all of Jet's international rights will be redistributed. It is in this context that Vistara is leasing WB aircraft previously operated by Jet.


Who cares about DXB and SIN. Those are the only cities that are maxed out and the only cities the airlines are talking about. That said, Those will get sorted. I have been talking about true long haul wide body flying. EU, USA, Canada could all be started today if Spice and Indigo wanted. Those are the routes that need lift asap.


And those are they routes that will cause the next 9W wannabe to fail too. The reason that 6E and this iteration of SG have done relatively well is that they haven't tried to be everything to everyone and whip around a measuring stick on where they can fly. Heck, Kingfisher tried this too and womp womp.

Clearly flying to North America and Europe and Canada was not sufficient to keep 9W solvent. Why exactly should someone rush into this market? Your argument is like listening to the people that run Air India. Routes for prestige and nothing else.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 10:17 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Clearly there is something of value or 4 groups would not have bid. What do you think they bid on?.


IMHO, the only aspect SBI lead lenders care about is how many cents on a dollar of 8500 Cr an investor is ready to give. Somewhere between 0-20 cents. Going by the giggles of SBI Chairman, it shouldn't take more than 30 seconds to decide.

SBI is neither authorized nor delegated to negotiate on behalf of lessors, vendors, employees, and others. A potential bidder has to deal with the rest themselves.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 10:41 am

The problem with foreign investment being capped:
Etihad's bid has so many conditions, it is non-binding:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SL4N22P0YW

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 1:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The problem with foreign investment being capped:
Etihad's bid has so many conditions, it is non-binding:
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/mobile.reute ... SL4N22P0YW

Lightsaber


From what I could glean by reading the press, I feel that the biggest issue with EY's bid is not that it is asking for a haircut in debt but that it wants the banks to give more loans. Now what is the ration between EY new money and bank loans, I do not know (and that is a very important metric to determine if the EY bid is fair).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 2:27 pm

1700 Cr is probably what EY ready to pitch in. Is that 1700 Cr 20% payment of 8500 Cr debt with 80% write-off.
Who is EY's local partner and how much they are investing are kept secret. UAE has a $1Billion in NIIF.

Hypothesis
Assuming EY's 1700 settles 8500 bank debt and banks are out of the board.

Salaries - $300 Million (Workout a payment plan, pay off a small subset of the crew in full, rest in partial payments)
Vendors - $100 Million (Probably 9W was cash and carry without much credit lines, payoff one vendor in each service area in full to restart services)
Past rental dues - $300 Million (Old Jet's monthly rental/finance was about $100 Million Assuming that on average it didn't pay for 3 months for entire fleet)

I think anyone with $500 Million an investor can restart solely Mumbai based airline with 10-15 narrowbodies. As things get cleared up activate 6 WBs to LHR and AMS.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 3:08 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
1700 Cr is probably what EY ready to pitch in. Is that 1700 Cr 20% payment of 8500 Cr debt with 80% write-off.
Who is EY's local partner and how much they are investing are kept secret. UAE has a $1Billion in NIIF.

Hypothesis
Assuming EY's 1700 settles 8500 bank debt and banks are out of the board.

Salaries - $300 Million (Workout a payment plan, pay off a small subset of the crew in full, rest in partial payments)
Vendors - $100 Million (Probably 9W was cash and carry without much credit lines, payoff one vendor in each service area in full to restart services)
Past rental dues - $300 Million (Old Jet's monthly rental/finance was about $100 Million Assuming that on average it didn't pay for 3 months for entire fleet)

I think anyone with $500 Million an investor can restart solely Mumbai based airline with 10-15 narrowbodies. As things get cleared up activate 6 WBs to LHR and AMS.

Gentlemen, it is now time to interrupt this flight of fantasy to bring you the latest reality: Etihad's sealed bid contained no actual bid. Merely a letter which stated they'll invest if all their conditions are met. We have all been mightily trolled.

There will be not be another Jet Airways revenue flight. It is dead.
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aarbee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 5:28 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity.


And pray, why should they. If it does not fit their business plan why bother? Even if they wanted ti, they cannot suddenly go FSC because you fancey.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.

Don't put your one stop BOM preferences on small towns.

Significant smaller towns already had option didn't care if Jet had international service or not.

-R
Love the AIXes
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 5:36 pm

unrave wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
1700 Cr is probably what EY ready to pitch in. Is that 1700 Cr 20% payment of 8500 Cr debt with 80% write-off.
Who is EY's local partner and how much they are investing are kept secret. UAE has a $1Billion in NIIF.

Hypothesis
Assuming EY's 1700 settles 8500 bank debt and banks are out of the board.

Salaries - $300 Million (Workout a payment plan, pay off a small subset of the crew in full, rest in partial payments)
Vendors - $100 Million (Probably 9W was cash and carry without much credit lines, payoff one vendor in each service area in full to restart services)
Past rental dues - $300 Million (Old Jet's monthly rental/finance was about $100 Million Assuming that on average it didn't pay for 3 months for entire fleet)

I think anyone with $500 Million an investor can restart solely Mumbai based airline with 10-15 narrowbodies. As things get cleared up activate 6 WBs to LHR and AMS.

Gentlemen, it is now time to interrupt this flight of fantasy to bring you the latest reality: Etihad's sealed bid contained no actual bid. Merely a letter which stated they'll invest if all their conditions are met. We have all been mightily trolled.

There will be not be another Jet Airways revenue flight. It is dead.

I would rephrase. EY made a bid with so many conditions, it is unlikely to go forward. This way they may claim an offer.

However, it is unlikely to be met. If someone else buys Jet, EY wins anyway.

The chance of Jet flying again goes down everyday.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 5:46 pm

aarbee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

Well said but people don’t want to hear it. Some are so focused on Jet disappearing that they can’t see the big picture. Spice and Indigo have totally flailed in coming up with a plan to replace Jet’s international capacity.


And pray, why should they. If it does not fit their business plan why bother? Even if they wanted ti, they cannot suddenly go FSC because you fancey.

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Will BOM and Del be hurt, sure a little. But smaller towns in India will really feel it as it has become harder to buy one ticket for tourists to reach smaller towns. Skyteam no longer is selling tickets to cities outside of DEL, BOM and BLR. But I guess Spice and EK’s codeshare will solve the international issue.

Don't put your one stop BOM preferences on small towns.

Significant smaller towns already had option didn't care if Jet had international service or not.

-R


Where did I say full service? I said long haul international. And where did I say Indigo and Spice need to ramp up connecting pax through BOM. They should go where ever in India they want to have a hub. But somehow the international capacity needs to built up.

As far as the bids. If none our real they should directly move to liquidation (which should be clear of most debts because you are selling the asset to pay off the debt). Hopefully some infrastructure can be saved. If the rumors of vistara wanting Jets 77W are true, I am all for them getting them cheap. Better an Indian company get the ROI on it rather than abroad (as the Indian taxpayer paid for the bad loans)
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 8:34 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
avier wrote:
No, that was not my point. That is you putting words in others mouth as usual.
I was pointing out at the Indian public sector banking and them being unaccountable for anything, expecting govt. bailouts everytime.


Not defending SBI but 9W does not have a case to blame anyone.


You are missing the point. The banks removed Goyal. That was a 100% correct. The point we are trying to make is that the banks seem to not care about recovering any money. They don’t care and don’t have a plan. Reason, they won’t lose their jobs. It looks like the GOI wants Jet to just close. So the banks are following along. Let’s see what the feedback is on the bids. But I suspect things got a bot harder for the GOI because 4 groups including EY bid. How will they explain that they can’t meet say EYs demands on restructuring.


So NG controlled 51% of the stake; so any inaction was under his watch.
Banks, got into this mess, because of loans they had to make under political pressure. If no political pressure, no loans to NG.
One could 'blame' banks after NG departed but that seems to be missing the point, isnt it?

I think it was discussed a few pages back, why are a group of posters so motivated to ensure Jet Airways survives?
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 8:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I would rephrase. EY made a bid with so many conditions, it is unlikely to go forward. This way they may claim an offer.

However, it is unlikely to be met. If someone else buys Jet, EY wins anyway.

The chance of Jet flying again goes down everyday.

Lightsaber


Not sure how EY 'wins' but they invested some real money only to find that NG thumbed his nose at them. Not sure what better outcome would 9W expect out of EY?
 
smartplane
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 8:47 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
From what I could glean by reading the press, I feel that the biggest issue with EY's bid is not that it is asking for a haircut in debt but that it wants the banks to give more loans. Now what is the ration between EY new money and bank loans, I do not know (and that is a very important metric to determine if the EY bid is fair).

Not unusual to request banks to re-finance the new venture. Major lenders always have more knowledge than due diligence can ever reveal, so a great test of viability, if lenders involved are willing to stay aboard for another ride?
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 10:30 pm

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Not defending SBI but 9W does not have a case to blame anyone.


You are missing the point. The banks removed Goyal. That was a 100% correct. The point we are trying to make is that the banks seem to not care about recovering any money. They don’t care and don’t have a plan. Reason, they won’t lose their jobs. It looks like the GOI wants Jet to just close. So the banks are following along. Let’s see what the feedback is on the bids. But I suspect things got a bot harder for the GOI because 4 groups including EY bid. How will they explain that they can’t meet say EYs demands on restructuring.


So NG controlled 51% of the stake; so any inaction was under his watch.
Banks, got into this mess, because of loans they had to make under political pressure. If no political pressure, no loans to NG.
One could 'blame' banks after NG departed but that seems to be missing the point, isnt it?

I think it was discussed a few pages back, why are a group of posters so motivated to ensure Jet Airways survives?


I don't think anyone thinks Jet airways should survive. I have probably said that 100 times. Don't care if any investors - Goyal, EY, stock holders etc get anything. Remember they are Jet Airways. The Jet infrastructure and brand is not Jet. I just think the pieces of Jet that have value should be sold off so the banks can recover money and value that was created is not lost. This is totally normal in liquidation. Jet's BOM hub facilities, even with few planes and employees that have left, is worth something. Sell it to Vistara, Spice, Indigo, someone new that wants to use the Jet name. Who cares. Why should that just be given away. And the banks take 100% hit. Wasted opportunity. Look at Pan Am and Air Berlin. But what ever. I think the banks just need to end the process on way or the other. I think the market needs certainty on Jet's state. I think if Jet is 100% dead, other Indian airlines might make different decisions.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 10:49 pm

vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I would rephrase. EY made a bid with so many conditions, it is unlikely to go forward. This way they may claim an offer.

However, it is unlikely to be met. If someone else buys Jet, EY wins anyway.

The chance of Jet flying again goes down everyday.

Lightsaber


Not sure how EY 'wins' but they invested some real money only to find that NG thumbed his nose at them. Not sure what better outcome would 9W expect out of EY?

If someone else buys Jet, they must talk to EY as they own the FF plan.
You know nothing John Snow.
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 11:00 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

You are missing the point. The banks removed Goyal. That was a 100% correct. The point we are trying to make is that the banks seem to not care about recovering any money. They don’t care and don’t have a plan. Reason, they won’t lose their jobs. It looks like the GOI wants Jet to just close. So the banks are following along. Let’s see what the feedback is on the bids. But I suspect things got a bot harder for the GOI because 4 groups including EY bid. How will they explain that they can’t meet say EYs demands on restructuring.


So NG controlled 51% of the stake; so any inaction was under his watch.
Banks, got into this mess, because of loans they had to make under political pressure. If no political pressure, no loans to NG.
One could 'blame' banks after NG departed but that seems to be missing the point, isnt it?

I think it was discussed a few pages back, why are a group of posters so motivated to ensure Jet Airways survives?


I don't think anyone thinks Jet airways should survive. I have probably said that 100 times. Don't care if any investors - Goyal, EY, stock holders etc get anything. Remember they are Jet Airways. The Jet infrastructure and brand is not Jet. I just think the pieces of Jet that have value should be sold off so the banks can recover money and value that was created is not lost. This is totally normal in liquidation. Jet's BOM hub facilities, even with few planes and employees that have left, is worth something. Sell it to Vistara, Spice, Indigo, someone new that wants to use the Jet name. Who cares. Why should that just be given away. And the banks take 100% hit. Wasted opportunity. Look at Pan Am and Air Berlin. But what ever. I think the banks just need to end the process on way or the other. I think the market needs certainty on Jet's state. I think if Jet is 100% dead, other Indian airlines might make different decisions.


Why are you assuming everything is being given away? 9W is so far up a creek in debt; it isnt like they have a fleet of 100 planes sitting around. The owned aircraft such as the 777s will be sold.

Where are you getting the source that everything will sit around and be given away?
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Are there any recent examples of airlines that stopped flying to restart after a few months and how did they end up? These would make Intresting case studies and see how they differ or are similar.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:48 am

Exeiowa wrote:
Are there any recent examples of airlines that stopped flying to restart after a few months and how did they end up? These would make Intresting case studies and see how they differ or are similar.

Nope, airlines once grounded do not come back.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 2:05 am

unrave wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
Are there any recent examples of airlines that stopped flying to restart after a few months and how did they end up? These would make Intresting case studies and see how they differ or are similar.

Nope, airlines once grounded do not come back.

How long was SpiceJet grounded before it came back? Note:. I think Jet is in far worse shape, but there is a semi-recent applicable example.

That said, I don't know how an airline that didn't pay leasing companies, vendors, or employees for months restarts.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 2:15 am

lightsaber wrote:
How long was SpiceJet grounded before it came back?

A couple of hours
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 2:32 am

unrave wrote:
Exeiowa wrote:
Are there any recent examples of airlines that stopped flying to restart after a few months and how did they end up? These would make Intresting case studies and see how they differ or are similar.

Nope, airlines once grounded do not come back.


Qantas did :stirthepot:
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 2:44 am

lightsaber wrote:
vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I would rephrase. EY made a bid with so many conditions, it is unlikely to go forward. This way they may claim an offer.

However, it is unlikely to be met. If someone else buys Jet, EY wins anyway.

The chance of Jet flying again goes down everyday.

Lightsaber


Not sure how EY 'wins' but they invested some real money only to find that NG thumbed his nose at them. Not sure what better outcome would 9W expect out of EY?

If someone else buys Jet, they must talk to EY as they own the FF plan.


I have 1,000,000miles on Jet. Where can I cash my miles?
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 3:32 am

vadodara wrote:
I have 1,000,000miles on Jet. Where can I cash my miles?


Convert them to Amazon / Flipkart vouchers. As liquid as it gets.
Vahroone
 
unnayan
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 4:26 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:
vadodara wrote:
I have 1,000,000miles on Jet. Where can I cash my miles?


Convert them to Amazon / Flipkart vouchers. As liquid as it gets.


Got email from JP that the miles can be used on any airlines for same redemption value... so a CCU-DEL ticket is still 8500 miles.. check that once if you can redeem
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 4:59 am

Indian cricket team was to fly Jet for 2019 World Cup in London, but now switched to another airline. And no, it's not Air India. Poor cricketers have to take a stop-over. Now talk of filling Jet's shoes.


Ahead of 2019 World Cup, Virat Kohli forced to switch fleet following Jet Airways shutdown
https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/ahead-of-2019-world-cup-virat-kohli-forced-to-switch-fleet-following-jet-airways-shutdown/articleshow/69317487.cms
 
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CPS001
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 5:24 am

^^ Didn't they fly Virgin on their last England trip?
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 6:09 am

avier wrote:
Indian cricket team was to fly Jet for 2019 World Cup in London, but now switched to another airline. And no, it's not Air India. Poor cricketers have to take a stop-over. Now talk of filling Jet's shoes.


Ahead of 2019 World Cup, Virat Kohli forced to switch fleet following Jet Airways shutdown
https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/ahead-of-2019-world-cup-virat-kohli-forced-to-switch-fleet-following-jet-airways-shutdown/articleshow/69317487.cms


Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 . Who cares whether it's good for India in the long run or is it a missed opportunity ! After all the success of Indian aviation is pax are getting $500 India US fares . No need to value time at all.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 7:07 am

binayak wrote:

Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 .

It's not what everyone wants, only desi small town residents here on a.net. Since for them, they ANYWAYS have to take a one-stop or more to connect globally be it through Dubai, Doha, Singapore, Mumbai or Delhi. But for mega city pax it definitely does matter, especially for those who value time and don't want to be forced to spend time in a crowded shopping mall while making a stop-over.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 7:25 am

binayak wrote:

Time is there for everyone to waste after all !! Now corps will fly the longer route one stop too. That's what most of the people here want i e literally gift the entire int'l traffic from India to ME3 . Who cares whether it's good for India in the long run or is it a missed opportunity ! After all the success of Indian aviation is pax are getting $500 India US fares . No need to value time at all.


The ones in favour of "convenient non-stop time saving" travel should have been willing to pay more so that the airline could have survived on revenues and not on taxpayer funded bank loans.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 9:29 am

unrave wrote:

The ones in favour of "convenient non-stop time saving" travel should have been willing to pay more so that the airline could have survived on revenues and not on taxpayer funded bank loans.


And there were plenty of takers for that. However that doesn't determine the fate of an airline on a handful of long hauls.
From blaming NG, you seem to now blame pax for an airlines failure. Interesting.
9W's long hauls were most profitable for them, however the rest of the larger short haul network couldn't be subsidized enough by the lucrative long hauls.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 10:24 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I just think the pieces of Jet that have value should be sold off so the banks can recover money and value that was created is not lost.


If PSBs sell-off valuable assets, how will GoI's fav club benefit? These are hidden handouts while chanting no bailout for 9W.
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 11:58 am

Jet Airways CEO, Vinay Dube has resigned following the resignation of CFO, Amit Agrawal.
Vinay Dube had tried his best to turn around the airline. Whatever he did for jet airways is remarkable.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
avier
Posts: 706
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 12:06 pm

binayak wrote:
Jet Airways CEO, Vinay Dube has resigned following the resignation of CFO, Amit Agrawal.

Curious to see his next stop. If in India ; GoAir seems ideal, since they haven't yet filled up their top exec posts.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 12:23 pm

avier wrote:
binayak wrote:
Jet Airways CEO, Vinay Dube has resigned following the resignation of CFO, Amit Agrawal.

Curious to see his next stop. If in India ; GoAir seems ideal, since they haven't yet filled up their top exec posts.


I think his services will be better used outside India. In a country with underlying structural, regulatory and banking issues, airline management skills are worthless.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 12:39 pm

avier wrote:
From blaming NG, you seem to now blame pax for an airlines failure. Interesting.

No. That was my response to the complaint that Jet's demise was leading to a time waste for frequent fliers
9W's long hauls were most profitable for them.

Citation needed.

dtw2hyd wrote:
If PSBs sell-off valuable assets, how will GoI's fav club benefit? These are hidden handouts while chanting no bailout for 9W.

What exactly are Jet's "valuable assets"?
Please spell out what these hidden handouts are. If you don't have a credible source to back your claims, they are nothing more can conspiracy theories, which belong in Non Aviation.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 12:44 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I just think the pieces of Jet that have value should be sold off so the banks can recover money and value that was created is not lost.

This has been repeated ad nauseam. What are the pieces of Jet that have value? What exactly should the banks have sold in a timely fashion? Please provide responses that are relevant to INDIA.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm

The C suite has resigned:

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/m.timesofind ... 326238.cms
One is okay. Three is horribly bad.
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blrsea
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Jet's net worth was below its debts by at least Rs 5000-6000 crores including all operational creditors too. Heck, just the refunds for flights was north of Rs 3500 crores. If Jet had anything of value, I am pretty sure it would have been included in calculating its net worth. The BOM slots cannot be sold by any airline, its LHR slots were leased from EY. Whatever it could pledge for debt, it had already done, including its office building which HDFC has now put on the market.

Jet was below water by late last year, and the only way it could have been saved was by NG agreeing to give up control by Sep-Oct of 2018. A paltry Rs 1500 crore injection by lenders would have hardly sustained a few weeks of operation at best. Why would banks throw more money when there was no possibility of revival by any other promoter or investor?

Conspiracy theorists want to blame everything on the banks and present government. But Jet's owes started long back when it bought Sahara. No amount of conspiracy theories will change that. The banks couldn't have forced anything till Jet defaulted, and even then they had 180 days.Jet defaulted first time in Dec 2018. Jet operates in same policy environment that other airlines work in. Jet has itself to blame for its poor decisions. I remember people saying chacha had always done magic. Well, every dog has its day. You can rely on "connections" for only so long.
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:29 pm

unrave wrote:
9W's long hauls were most profitable for them.

Citation needed.


Int'l ops were 67% of their revenues when the airline had 120 aircraft operating. (source : their financial results)
For earning 67% of their revenues they just needed 10 77Ws , 6 a330s and 8-10 737s i e 26 out of 120 aircraft . Now no airline in the world can announce route wise profits but obviously if the revenue contribution of those routes are high, they're lucrative indeed.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:33 pm

binayak wrote:
Now no airline in the world can announce route wise profits but obviously if the revenue contribution of those routes are high, they're lucrative indeed.

That is not logically consistent. A small fleet can contribute to 70% of the revenues and still be highly unprofitable.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:41 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
avier wrote:
binayak wrote:
Jet Airways CEO, Vinay Dube has resigned following the resignation of CFO, Amit Agrawal.

Curious to see his next stop. If in India ; GoAir seems ideal, since they haven't yet filled up their top exec posts.


I think his services will be better used outside India. In a country with underlying structural, regulatory and banking issues, airline management skills are worthless.

Why do NRI posters on this board keep dissing India? Perhaps it is their way of seeking validation among their peers in their adopted countries.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
binayak
Posts: 892
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 14, 2019 1:51 pm

unrave wrote:
binayak wrote:
Now no airline in the world can announce route wise profits but obviously if the revenue contribution of those routes are high, they're lucrative indeed.

That is not logically consistent. A small fleet can contribute to 70% of the revenues and still be highly unprofitable.


So why do you think Vinay Dube continued to say that int'l ops were lucrative for the airline and that the airline should expand internationally during those days ?
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