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thegrew
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:45 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:16 pm

I also sometimes wondered if the dash 8 fleet is really the best aircraft or if switching to the ATR42/72 would be more profitable for them due to lower fuel costs. I doubt the speed difference is really realised on most routes.

Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk
 
gunnerman
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:20 pm

This one is simple: fly from Southampton to Edinburgh via BHX or find another way. As any other way is unattractive you'll fly.
 
bennett123
Topic Author
Posts: 9830
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 pm

Well to start with, their MX facilities and Training Academy are at EXE.
 
bennett123
Topic Author
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:41 pm

How much would they save in fuel costs.

How easy would it be to offload over 50 DHC8?.
 
3AWM
Posts: 232
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:00 pm

Not sure if this is correct but when Flybe recieved their slot allocation at LHR for S20 didn't that grandfather their rights to the slots (having served .them for enough seasons).

That would mean VS could just buy the slots, no need to buy the rest of the airline.
 
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OA260
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:51 pm

Cabinet trio to thrash out £100m Flybe rescue package

The government insists that Flybe's investors pump new funds into the airline in return for state support, Sky News can reveal.
The business and transport secretaries will on Tuesday hold talks with chancellor Sajid Javid about backing a rescue deal for Flybe that would defer a £100m tax payment until 2023.

Sky News has learnt that Andrea Leadsom and Grant Shapps will meet Mr Javid to discuss the proposed terms of a bailout of one of Britain's largest regional airlines.

https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-trio ... e-11908144
Last edited by OA260 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 1040
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:52 pm

Flybe is asking for its Air Passenger Duty liability to be deferred for 3 years:

https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-trio ... e-11908144
 
jomur
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:03 pm

Wrong move to bail out the airline. Its new owners should stump up the cash not the UK tax payer... Next all the high street shops will demand and expect government help.
Last edited by jomur on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
uta999
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 pm

A regional airline is never going to make money all year round on these routes.

It should be a requirement of the national carrier (BA), to serve the regions properly. Not just the major cities, leaving the scraps for one failing airline after another.

BA gets all the advantages of being a major at LHR & LGW, bit thinks it’s too good for the regions. It needs to support them more, even if it doesn’t turn a profit on some.
Your computer just got better
 
leghorn
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:20 pm

this is so dangerous. Once the Consortium get the Government to get some "skin in the game" they'll be chasing their 100m in APD forever and FlyBE could become UK's Alitalia.
 
leghorn
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:28 pm

100m would pay for a huge number of PSO routes offered to the open market.
 
sandyb123
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:50 pm

The directors are in a sticky situation.

Continuing to trade with no reasonable prospect of being able to deliver what you’ve sold is Insolvent trading, a civil offence.

Collecting tax on behalf of the exchequer and then spending it on other things (turnover seems to be implied) is potentially fraudulent, a criminal offence.

The directors have legal responsibilities to the company. In my experience (Mostly in the SME world but also at higher levels) most directors don’t understand the law On director conduct and the potential financial and legal implications on them personally.

I’ve experienced a company failure and the 2 year government investigation that follows. It’s not comfortable and they are ruthless.

The government also needs to be careful not to set a precedent of allowing tax deferrals, as someone mentioned before there will be a queue round the block of other CFOs asking for the same. They also risk falling foul of state aid rules, which in a few weeks could probably be done without European ramifications but it doesn’t seem that Flybe have that long to bounce, legally or morally.

Sandyb123
Member of the mile high club
 
eagles94
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:09 am

uta999 wrote:
A regional airline is never going to make money all year round on these routes.

It should be a requirement of the national carrier (BA), to serve the regions properly. Not just the major cities, leaving the scraps for one failing airline after another.

BA gets all the advantages of being a major at LHR & LGW, bit thinks it’s too good for the regions. It needs to support them more, even if it doesn’t turn a profit on some.


They ventured into the regions last summer with BA Cityflyer and apart from Stansted and Manchester, it was a financial disaster.
Think Bristol has a few one off charters this year but that’s it. It’s equally frustrating that people outside of London/Manchester plead for BA and other airlines to serve the outer regions, just for them to end up booking Ryanair anyway.
 
bennett123
Topic Author
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:19 am

Just been reading on BBC website that the proposal is to defer payment of £100M in APD for three years.


Raises a couple of points;

1. I thought that the consortium was going to invest £100M, now it is to be the taxpayer.

2. The article also refers to reducing APD on domestic flights after Leaving the EU. What will be the impact on the environment, and on public finances?.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:03 am

eagles94 wrote:
uta999 wrote:
A regional airline is never going to make money all year round on these routes.

It should be a requirement of the national carrier (BA), to serve the regions properly. Not just the major cities, leaving the scraps for one failing airline after another.

BA gets all the advantages of being a major at LHR & LGW, bit thinks it’s too good for the regions. It needs to support them more, even if it doesn’t turn a profit on some.


They ventured into the regions last summer with BA Cityflyer and apart from Stansted and Manchester, it was a financial disaster.
Think Bristol has a few one off charters this year but that’s it. It’s equally frustrating that people outside of London/Manchester plead for BA and other airlines to serve the outer regions, just for them to end up booking Ryanair anyway.


This is something I regularly bring up with friends who complain about Ryanair. I want a nicer airline, they ask, well fly from here with these then. Oh wait that costs more though, nah I'll just book Ryanair. You get what you pay for. Happy to spend hundreds of pounds on food and drink but as soon as you suggest paying an extra tenner for easyjet over ryanair they suddenly have no money.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:04 am

bennett123 wrote:
Just been reading on BBC website that the proposal is to defer payment of £100M in APD for three years.


Raises a couple of points;

1. I thought that the consortium was going to invest £100M, now it is to be the taxpayer.

2. The article also refers to reducing APD on domestic flights after Leaving the EU. What will be the impact on the environment, and on public finances?.


I think with the current environmental protest movement and increased awareness in the UK that would be an interesting move. But to be fair, many services that flybe run the competing rail journey is horendou.
 
jomur
Posts: 361
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:09 am

bennett123 wrote:
Just been reading on BBC website that the proposal is to defer payment of £100M in APD for three years.


Raises a couple of points;

1. I thought that the consortium was going to invest £100M, now it is to be the taxpayer.

2. The article also refers to reducing APD on domestic flights after Leaving the EU. What will be the impact on the environment, and on public finances?.


UK APD has nothing to do with the EU. It could be set at zero now or last year if the UK Government wanted to.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:15 am

jomur wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Just been reading on BBC website that the proposal is to defer payment of £100M in APD for three years.


Raises a couple of points;

1. I thought that the consortium was going to invest £100M, now it is to be the taxpayer.

2. The article also refers to reducing APD on domestic flights after Leaving the EU. What will be the impact on the environment, and on public finances?.


UK APD has nothing to do with the EU. It could be set at zero now or last year if the UK Government wanted to.

But, but, but... the big bad EU is at fault for everything, Boris and Nigel told me so. :roll:
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8436
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:45 am

I admit that the Brexit saga makes my head spin, but I was under the impression that the UK has to maintain regulatory alignment until 31 December (and potentially longer depending on the outcome of the FTA negotiations). Would full regulatory alignment not include the regulations on state aid?

Deferring tax payments is an interest free government loan via the back door, and I would have thought that it would therefore run afoul of the EU regulations on state aid.

I could be completely and utterly wrong about everything I've written so am happy to be educated :)
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:14 am

Arion640 wrote:
jomur wrote:
Not a chance. The UK Government has said previously they won't bail out privately owned companies unless it is strategic to the UK and Flybe doesn't fall into this bracket. If FlyBE don't pay their bill now it would be highly likely the UK Government would get nothing later on.


It’s more strategic than Thomas Cook was. Ironically this airline supports a lot of Northern seats and communities that put the government in power.

This will hit regional airports a lot harder than the Thomas Cook collapse.


Indeed. Thomas Cook was replaceable and people have plenty of alternatives when booking holidays. Flybe in its current form less so.

As well as regional airports, there are places such as BHD, IOM, GCI, JER where road and rail aren't alternatives at all, and other places such as SOU, CWL, EXE, NQY, ABZ and INV where road and rail do come into the equation but will literally take all day.

LHRFlyer wrote:
Flybe is asking for its Air Passenger Duty liability to be deferred for 3 years:

https://news.sky.com/story/cabinet-trio ... e-11908144


£106m is a lot of money for the government coffers. Makes you wonder how much revenue they're getting from other airlines and those that operate long-haul flights, sell business class seats etc. and it's no wonder governments past and present haven't dared to scrap APD.
 
BDKLEZ
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:34 am

Regarding APD, it is being reported that the UK government will enter into talks with BE specifically but also with other airline bosses about the distinct possibility of an ADP reduction/revocation. This cannot be done for BE alone as this would essentially mean that "state aid" is being offered to one particular entity which contravenes EU regulation. If this indeed goes ahead this could be a massive boost for aviation in the UK generally. So out of the ashes of a burning BE, not only could they potentially survive but successive benefits to the industry as a whole would be very welcome indeed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51100029

FlyBe are a very different beast than Thomas Cook or Monarch, their network from the regions in the UK which has been mentioned before is unprecedented. They provide feed from bases & places others do not dare/bother and so the importance to the UK economy is crucial by providing that connectivity. Fore sure a route review is needed in my opinion but so long as commercially and economically viable routes can be optimised fully then BE will continue to be able to offer that service from the regions that they have long been providing.

Let's get the funding in place asap, wherever that comes from. Re-brand & restructure asap. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all the staff.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
tobsw
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:29 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:25 am

Won't FlyBe go into the same problem... in the future as new HS trains and routes are deployed, motorways updated,... etc etc etc... regional flyings is just a thing from the last decade.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:31 am

BDKLEZ wrote:
Regarding APD, it is being reported that the UK government will enter into talks with BE specifically but also with other airline bosses about the distinct possibility of an ADP reduction/revocation. This cannot be done for BE alone as this would essentially mean that "state aid" is being offered to one particular entity which contravenes EU regulation. If this indeed goes ahead this could be a massive boost for aviation in the UK generally. So out of the ashes of a burning BE, not only could they potentially survive but successive benefits to the industry as a whole would be very welcome indeed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51100029

FlyBe are a very different beast than Thomas Cook or Monarch, their network from the regions in the UK which has been mentioned before is unprecedented. They provide feed from bases & places others do not dare/bother and so the importance to the UK economy is crucial by providing that connectivity. Fore sure a route review is needed in my opinion but so long as commercially and economically viable routes can be optimised fully then BE will continue to be able to offer that service from the regions that they have long been providing.

Let's get the funding in place asap, wherever that comes from. Re-brand & restructure asap. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all the staff.


I would not call it a massive boost as the cut only applies to domestic routes. The UK domestic market is a really small percentage of the total UK aviation market that almost in its entirety flies abroad.
 
BlueTrue
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:38 am

Those of you who think that the loss of Flybe would be serious for Belfast should have a look at the Easyjet network out of Belfast. Have you? Every major route covered.
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:44 am

tobsw wrote:
Won't FlyBe go into the same problem... in the future as new HS trains and routes are deployed, motorways updated,... etc etc etc... regional flyings is just a thing from the last decade.


With all respect, but what utter nonsense. HS trains are a far distant prospect. Just look at the massive underestimation of cost with huge completion delays of HS2 & Crossrail. And of course both of those only consider London & London/Birmingham at the initial stage. The infrastructure is not in place and needs to be built from scratch. The aviation infrastructure is already in place. Most importantly however, try telling anyone in IOM, BHD, GCI, JER, etc to take the train? I'm not sure what it is, but I think there might be a bit of a problem there. Another example, let's say NQY, to take the train you'll need to sacrifice a whole day of your life if you take the train to London. Unlike Germany, France, Italy the UK has currently no HS rail capability and that will not be available for many many years.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:50 am

BlueTrue wrote:
Those of you who think that the loss of Flybe would be serious for Belfast should have a look at the Easyjet network out of Belfast. Have you? Every major route covered.


Well with BE operating about 90% of flights to/from BHD then that's rather significant and it will have very serious implications for the airport, employees, suppliers. It's not just about getting to where you need to go, there's the bigger picture to consider.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:02 am

I would not call it a massive boost as the cut only applies to domestic routes. The UK domestic market is a really small percentage of the total UK aviation market that almost in its entirety flies abroad.


LON-GLA/EDI/ABZ/INV/BHD/BFS/NQY/DND for example. That's not considering deps ex BRS/MAN/EDI/GLA/EMA/LPL. I'm not going to provide a list, but you get the picture. These domestic sectors are operated multiple times per day. As an ex Ops Controller myself, a/c can operate up to 8x sectors per day on LPL-BFS (just to pick a route). Now consider the operation to/from GLA/EDI/NCL blah blah blah. Now add all of those up and make sure to include the one's I've forgotten and you'll find that's quite a total on a daily operational basis. Spread over all of these ops, the cut could prove to be rather significant.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
716131
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:08 am

if BE went bust, what's the future to the aviation in the UK?
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
tobsw
Posts: 139
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:14 am

BDKLEZ wrote:
tobsw wrote:
Won't FlyBe go into the same problem... in the future as new HS trains and routes are deployed, motorways updated,... etc etc etc... regional flyings is just a thing from the last decade.


With all respect, but what utter nonsense. HS trains are a far distant prospect. Just look at the massive underestimation of cost with huge completion delays of HS2 & Crossrail. And of course both of those only consider London & London/Birmingham at the initial stage. The infrastructure is not in place and needs to be built from scratch. The aviation infrastructure is already in place. Most importantly however, try telling anyone in IOM, BHD, GCI, JER, etc to take the train? I'm not sure what it is, but I think there might be a bit of a problem there. Another example, let's say NQY, to take the train you'll need to sacrifice a whole day of your life if you take the train to London. Unlike Germany, France, Italy the UK has currently no HS rail capability and that will not be available for many many years.


So how come Flybe hasn't been able to generate profits in the last (5 or 6, can't remember) years? Something must have changed, BUT FlyBe did not adapt successfully. It's a zombie airline.

FlyBe might be vital or essential for some of these communities, but passengers don't want to spend more on tickets. So... you know... you won't get a pound for a penny.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:19 am

BDKLEZ wrote:
I would not call it a massive boost as the cut only applies to domestic routes. The UK domestic market is a really small percentage of the total UK aviation market that almost in its entirety flies abroad.


LON-GLA/EDI/ABZ/INV/BHD/BFS/NQY/DND for example. That's not considering deps ex BRS/MAN/EDI/GLA/EMA/LPL. I'm not going to provide a list, but you get the picture. These domestic sectors are operated multiple times per day. As an ex Ops Controller myself, a/c can operate up to 8x sectors per day on LPL-BFS (just to pick a route). Now consider the operation to/from GLA/EDI/NCL blah blah blah. Now add all of those up and make sure to include the one's I've forgotten and you'll find that's quite a total on a daily operational basis. Spread over all of these ops, the cut could prove to be rather significant.


I get that, the problem is more, where do you get the passengers from for this Routes. Apart from NI, that is on a different island, you have the business traffic but will it increase? Do you think there will be a massive boost in leisure traffic from removing the tax? Leisure in the UK goes abroad. BA might be able to lower prices of connecting tickets from UK-LON-RoW but they might not even. So in my opinion it will not be a boost to UK aviation from a passenger point of view but for the airlines to become profitable or make more profit.

Fares might not even go down, as right now domestic UK travel seems to be not sustainable so ticket prices will stay but the airlines will be able to make profit.
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:27 am

Where could we expect to see their fleet go?
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:28 am

As things currently stand the Uk cannot remove APD from domestic UK flights. The Irish government did not want to charge departure tax on flights within Ireland and to the UK several years ago. The work-around was to charge based on distance, with shortest band drawn to include UK and Irish airports in the €0 band. This will be trickier for the UK as any circle to include all UK airports would include some French cities. The circle would be slightly smaller if it was drawn from the English Midlands, the distance from EMA to ABZ is 300miles, rather than 506 miles from London.

StdTank80002 wrote:
I think with the current environmental protest movement and increased awareness in the UK that would be an interesting move. But to be fair, many services that flybe run the competing rail journey is horendou.


The global Co2 contribution by air travel is the same as the environmental impact of cloud-based services such as Netflix, amazon prime, iCloud, Google Cloud services, etc. Both contribute about 4% each. Yet we hear very, very little about this. Agriculture, not oil, is the largest contributor to Co2 emission and arguably to climate change as a whole, when thinking of deforestation, etc. The generation of electricity is also a double-digit percentage contributor. While saying "air travel is bad for the environment" is true, you also have to look at the impact of other industries.
 
offloaded
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:56 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:35 am

tobsw wrote:
Won't FlyBe go into the same problem... in the future as new HS trains and routes are deployed, motorways updated,... etc etc etc... regional flyings is just a thing from the last decade.


That's an interesting point. but to give where I live (Portugal) as an example, if I want to to get from FAO to OPO I have 4 options. Fly (either TP via LIS, or FR direct.), car(motorway or what in the UK would be called A roads), rail, or bus.

Flying, especially direct is of course the quickest, and good old FR's fare can be as low as €10.

Driving on the free A roads will take 6 hrs and I'll probably spend €140 in fuel. The toll roads are excellent and not crowded at all, so journey time is probably down to 5 hrs but another €100 in tolls. Unless they raise the speed limits, there is no way to trim that time, and people are usually well enough over the limit anyway. With Smart motorways in the UK, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start turning them into toll roads. They may cut traffic, but it will increase costs to the motorists.

Rail takes 5 hrs on the Alfa (high speed train) which is partially high speed (up to 220km/h and down to 50km/h for some parts). They could certainly get that time down, but it is unlikely they'll be spending tens of millions of euros to do so especially as our region (Algarve) has a low population density and only generates about 5% of GDP.

Finally we have the bus, which is similar cost to the train, but slower.

So, IMHO, there's a lot of life in regional flying for a long time.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:57 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:55 am

I get that, the problem is more, where do you get the passengers from for this Routes. Apart from NI, that is on a different island, you have the business traffic but will it increase? Do you think there will be a massive boost in leisure traffic from removing the tax? Leisure in the UK goes abroad. BA might be able to lower prices of connecting tickets from UK-LON-RoW but they might not even. So in my opinion it will not be a boost to UK aviation from a passenger point of view but for the airlines to become profitable or make more profit.

Fares might not even go down, as right now domestic UK travel seems to be not sustainable so ticket prices will stay but the airlines will be able to make profit.


Well leisure traffic will stay with TUI, Jet2 Holidays & usual charters etc. A reduction in APD will offer these operators a free marketing opportunity to promote somewhat discounted overall cost. leisure traffic, normally being families and/or groups of folks travelling together. Business traffic will not be affected as business still need to be done. The idea of video conferencing instead of going somewhere for a meeting has for a long time already been a smart option. But any reduction in APD will surely promote an increase of interest in travelling for business once more.

At the end of the day, APD is a tax like VAT and not a cost, it can and then be written off by business and as such will ultimately not have any effect on business travel. The company takes the initial expense and the clever folks in Finance sort out the finer details.

Regarding passengers and where they come from, as I said earlier the route network needs to be reviewed. But the pax will still come from where they always came from. They just need a degree of reliability to be reaffirmed again given that BE reputation in recent times has been somewhat inconsistent. I'm not sure about the DH-8 however, given the higher OPEX of the machine, maybe a combo of ATR42/72 fleet might be of interest instead. But what does one do with 50+ DH-8's?
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
BDKLEZ
Posts: 1772
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:01 am

BrianDromey wrote:
As things currently stand the Uk cannot remove APD from domestic UK flights


Why not? It's a UK domestic levy which can be withdrawn/reviewed at any time.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:26 am

BDKLEZ wrote:
I get that, the problem is more, where do you get the passengers from for this Routes. Apart from NI, that is on a different island, you have the business traffic but will it increase? Do you think there will be a massive boost in leisure traffic from removing the tax? Leisure in the UK goes abroad. BA might be able to lower prices of connecting tickets from UK-LON-RoW but they might not even. So in my opinion it will not be a boost to UK aviation from a passenger point of view but for the airlines to become profitable or make more profit.

Fares might not even go down, as right now domestic UK travel seems to be not sustainable so ticket prices will stay but the airlines will be able to make profit.


Well leisure traffic will stay with TUI, Jet2 Holidays & usual charters etc. A reduction in APD will offer these operators a free marketing opportunity to promote somewhat discounted overall cost. leisure traffic, normally being families and/or groups of folks travelling together.



It states it is only domestic traffic that gets a reduction/cancellatoin in APD so how will this traffic become cheaper when the folks fly abroad?

Business traffic will not be affected as business still need to be done. The idea of video conferencing instead of going somewhere for a meeting has for a long time already been a smart option. But any reduction in APD will surely promote an increase of interest in travelling for business once more.

At the end of the day, APD is a tax like VAT and not a cost, it can and then be written off by business and as such will ultimately not have any effect on business travel. The company takes the initial expense and the clever folks in Finance sort out the finer details.

Regarding passengers and where they come from, as I said earlier the route network needs to be reviewed. But the pax will still come from where they always came from.


So at the end it will come down to the point if UK leisure pax is willing to travel inside the UK with an aircraft and if said travel is beneficial over individual traffic (using their cars).
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4840
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:29 am

uta999 wrote:
BA gets all the advantages of being a major at LHR & LGW, bit thinks it’s too good for the regions. It needs to support them more, even if it doesn’t turn a profit on some.

No PLC is allowed to do this. The board has a responsibility to shareholders to get an ROI, they're a business not a charity. BA has no responsibility to the regions in the way you suggest and office holders would be failing in their duties to operate services on a social or charity basis. If you want that sort of support, then vote Corbyn and get a renationalised BA.

BA do serve ABZ/GLA/EDI/MAN/NCL/LBA/BHD on a spoke to hub basis, they cannot compete with the locos on the likes of EDI-AMS as easyJet do better on point to point and KLM hoover up business and connections. BA in a similar market would be trapped between the two with little hope of winning, which is why BA barely fly internationally from the regions.
 
TC957
Posts: 3850
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:38 am

Allowing Flybe a £106m tax deferment is surely far better for the UK tax payer than the multi-billions HS2 will cost let alone the ripping up of over 200 miles of countryside for HS2.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:40 am

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.2913971

As long as UK is in EU this rule on APD applies.
 
jomur
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:00 pm

Virgin and the other owners of the Connect group should be stumping up the cash for Flybe.They are trying to have their cake and eat it...
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 789
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:22 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
Where could we expect to see their fleet go?


Might be wrong, but I think most of the fleet is leased?
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1418
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:23 pm

BDKLEZ wrote:
Regarding passengers and where they come from, as I said earlier the route network needs to be reviewed. But the pax will still come from where they always came from. They just need a degree of reliability to be reaffirmed again given that BE reputation in recent times has been somewhat inconsistent. I'm not sure about the DH-8 however, given the higher OPEX of the machine, maybe a combo of ATR42/72 fleet might be of interest instead. But what does one do with 50+ DH-8's?


There's a reason why the nickname "Flymaybe" has stuck.

Having flown on both the Dash 8 and ATR72 including on the same route at different times, I prefer the ATR72. However, some of those Dash 8's will be on leases which Flybe may not be able to get out of, as well as the fundamental fact that the majority of their business is built around Dash 8 operations, so any move away from that would need to be done gradually over time.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:29 pm

If APD is removed then Ryanair and Easyjet are going to carve up all the big routes within UK between themselves. £13 x 189 seats for Ryanair = £2457 less that each sub 1 hour flight needs to make to break even. Easyjet and Ryanair will find airframes for that from somewhere. For Ryanair I'd say the 737-700, EI-SEV would be given a UK AOC registration and hit the market post-haste in the interim.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:35 pm

leghorn wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ecj-rules-against-aer-lingus-and-ryanair-in-16m-travel-tax-case-1.2913971

As long as UK is in EU this rule on APD applies.

But exemptions already exist for flights ex-the Scottish Highlands and Islands, as well as long haul ex- Belfast?
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:37 pm

exemptions don't make up FlyBE's bread and butter routes. They've been operating in a netherworld up to this point below which LCCs are interested. LCCs can now move in and complain if they are being hindered from doing so.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:45 pm

TC957 wrote:
Allowing Flybe a £106m tax deferment is surely far better for the UK tax payer than the multi-billions HS2 will cost let alone the ripping up of over 200 miles of countryside for HS2.


Hmmmm. Not so sure. Considering HS2 will be able to move tends of thousands of people an hour I don't think the two are really comparable.
 
caaardiff
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:14 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:45 pm

So what's the best option, scrap UK & Ireland APD tax cutting £13 off each ticket, so £26 off each return. Will Flybe pass that saving on to the customer? Unlikely, so ticket prices remain the same, but Flybe profits from say £50m a year (not including international flying APD that would still be owed). So the customer doesn't benefit in any way but Flybe keeps flying. As long as Flybe can support current passenger numbers then it can still survive. If Flybe reduce their fares then surely there's no benefit, unless they can attract more passengers. But in that case will hoards of people start using Flybe because they've saved £26? Leisure travellers maybe, but on domestic routes most of flybe customers will be business or essential leisure travel anyway which would be willing to pay the extra £26.
I fully agree domestic APD should be abolished but i'm just curious on how it will actually pan out if it does.
Using my local Airport as an example. The loss of Flybe would be disastrous for CWL, but flybe compete quite heavily for Welsh passengers that have the option of BE from CWL or EZY from BRS.
As a comparison travelling CWL/BRS-EDI and back Mon10th Feb AM and returning Friday 14th Feb PM.
BE CWL - £73.68 out & £54.31 return (Base fare £66 / Taxes - APD £26 / Passenger service charge £35.99) = £127.99
EZY BRS - £15 out & £33 return (Base fare £22 / Taxes - APD £26) = £48
Flybe being considerably more expensive. Even with APD removed completely from the fare they are still double the price of EZY. APD doesn't appear to be affecting Easyjets prices, so is it a level playing field removing APD on domestic routes? Some might argue that it's making no difference for certain carriers and it's the setup and state of the Airline that is the issue. Removing APD is just likely to improve Flybe's profits.
Also not entirely sure what the "passenger service charge" is for too.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:50 pm

BrianDromey wrote:

StdTank80002 wrote:
I think with the current environmental protest movement and increased awareness in the UK that would be an interesting move. But to be fair, many services that flybe run the competing rail journey is horendou.


The global Co2 contribution by air travel is the same as the environmental impact of cloud-based services such as Netflix, amazon prime, iCloud, Google Cloud services, etc. Both contribute about 4% each. Yet we hear very, very little about this. Agriculture, not oil, is the largest contributor to Co2 emission and arguably to climate change as a whole, when thinking of deforestation, etc. The generation of electricity is also a double-digit percentage contributor. While saying "air travel is bad for the environment" is true, you also have to look at the impact of other industries.


That's an interesting fact I never knew. I assume this comes from cooling of the huge servers? You got any sources so I can have a nosy at the reasons. Quick Google seems to substantiate what you have said but lacking on any details.

It doesn't stop air having the appearence in the UK as super nasty for the environment, whereas streaming does not. Facts never hold back these sorts of things.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:56 pm

StdTank80002 wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:

StdTank80002 wrote:
I think with the current environmental protest movement and increased awareness in the UK that would be an interesting move. But to be fair, many services that flybe run the competing rail journey is horendou.


The global Co2 contribution by air travel is the same as the environmental impact of cloud-based services such as Netflix, amazon prime, iCloud, Google Cloud services, etc. Both contribute about 4% each. Yet we hear very, very little about this. Agriculture, not oil, is the largest contributor to Co2 emission and arguably to climate change as a whole, when thinking of deforestation, etc. The generation of electricity is also a double-digit percentage contributor. While saying "air travel is bad for the environment" is true, you also have to look at the impact of other industries.


That's an interesting fact I never knew. I assume this comes from cooling of the huge servers? You got any sources so I can have a nosy at the reasons. Quick Google seems to substantiate what you have said but lacking on any details.

It doesn't stop air having the appearence in the UK as super nasty for the environment, whereas streaming does not. Facts never hold back these sorts of things.


The best thing airlines could actually do for the environment (besides order new frames with better engines) would be to stop serving meat on their flights. Generally who cares if it is "Rice or Pasta" instead of "Chicken or Pasta". Also stop selling meat dishes at airports. This would probably "save" more Co2 than halving the amounts of flights.

I definitely would not care and I love my steak.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:59 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
StdTank80002 wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:



The global Co2 contribution by air travel is the same as the environmental impact of cloud-based services such as Netflix, amazon prime, iCloud, Google Cloud services, etc. Both contribute about 4% each. Yet we hear very, very little about this. Agriculture, not oil, is the largest contributor to Co2 emission and arguably to climate change as a whole, when thinking of deforestation, etc. The generation of electricity is also a double-digit percentage contributor. While saying "air travel is bad for the environment" is true, you also have to look at the impact of other industries.


That's an interesting fact I never knew. I assume this comes from cooling of the huge servers? You got any sources so I can have a nosy at the reasons. Quick Google seems to substantiate what you have said but lacking on any details.

It doesn't stop air having the appearence in the UK as super nasty for the environment, whereas streaming does not. Facts never hold back these sorts of things.


The best thing airlines could actually do for the environment (besides order new frames with better engines) would be to stop serving meat on their flights. Generally who cares if it is "Rice or Pasta" instead of "Chicken or Pasta". Also stop selling meat dishes at airports. This would probably "save" more Co2 than halving the amounts of flights.

I definitely would not care and I love my steak.


I was thinking similar about electric ground vehicles at airports yesterday while observing operations at frankfurt.
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