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JobsaGoodun
Posts: 112
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:34 pm

3AWM wrote:
The slots don't have any intrinsic value until March 2020.

In order for the previous shareholders to realise this value they would have had to put in sufficient working capital to cover the airline's losses until then. As I understand it Flybe has actually lost more money than anticipated as such they need more working capital to get to March which is why the investing partners don't want to put more in.


Apologies for previous, I meant to correct the view that the slots have a monetary value. As per the commitments, they cannot be sold or transferred to another operator. If Flybe decide not to use them any longer then they return to IAG.

1.3.3 Grandfathering is subject to approval of the Commission, advised by the Monitoring Trustee, in accordance with Clause 1.4. The Commission’s approval shall be conditional on the Prospective Entrant committing that if it ceases to use the Slots in question for the purposes described in Clause 1.3.2, it will return the Slots in question to IAG or, if IAG does not want the return of the Slots, to the slot coordinator.
 
3AWM
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:45 pm

As long as they don't misuse the slots they can transfer them at the end of the utilisation period. Then their rights to the slots are grandfathered.
 
TC957
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:15 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Ryanair's Michael O'Leary threatens legal action over rescue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51140969

was always gonna happen.

Well, he was never going to miss this opportunity to mouth off, surprised he let WW have his first say.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:25 pm

FlyBe could use the current slots to fly a couple of flights currently flown by AFR/KLM, in turn releasing those slots for DAL/VIR....

3AWM wrote:
As long as they don't misuse the slots they can transfer them at the end of the utilisation period. Then their rights to the slots are grandfathered.
 
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OA260
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:59 am

Flybe in talks with government about 'commercial' loan - reports

Struggling British regional airline Flybe is in talks with the UK government about a loan on commercial terms which would not represent a bailout, the BBC has reported.

Rival airlines IAG - which owns Aer Lingus and British Airways - and Ryanair have attacked a government-backed support plan for Flybe.

They said the plan prevents a level playing field and breaches state aid rules.

But Flybe's boss Mark Anderson told staff any government help would be made on commercial terms, according to a BBC report, citing seen an address given by Anderson to Flybe staff.

www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0117/1107 ... an-report/
 
A380MSN004
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:13 am

tobsw wrote:
BDKLEZ wrote:
tobsw wrote:
Won't FlyBe go into the same problem... in the future as new HS trains and routes are deployed, motorways updated,... etc etc etc... regional flyings is just a thing from the last decade.


With all respect, but what utter nonsense. HS trains are a far distant prospect. Just look at the massive underestimation of cost with huge completion delays of HS2 & Crossrail. And of course both of those only consider London & London/Birmingham at the initial stage. The infrastructure is not in place and needs to be built from scratch. The aviation infrastructure is already in place. Most importantly however, try telling anyone in IOM, BHD, GCI, JER, etc to take the train? I'm not sure what it is, but I think there might be a bit of a problem there. Another example, let's say NQY, to take the train you'll need to sacrifice a whole day of your life if you take the train to London. Unlike Germany, France, Italy the UK has currently no HS rail capability and that will not be available for many many years.


So how come Flybe hasn't been able to generate profits in the last (5 or 6, can't remember) years? Something must have changed, BUT FlyBe did not adapt successfully. It's a zombie airline.

FlyBe might be vital or essential for some of these communities, but passengers don't want to spend more on tickets. So... you know... you won't get a pound for a penny.


Candid question from Someone who is not Living in the UK.
What are the real issue that led Flybe the actual situation ?

Is that an issue with the Low yields or load factors on certain routes ?

Is there too much ground staff ?

Is it an issue with the Q400 ? Does this aircraft is still the best one to operate UK regionals routes ?
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1400
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:22 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
Candid question from Someone who is not Living in the UK.
What are the real issue that led Flybe the actual situation ?

Is that an issue with the Low yields or load factors on certain routes ?

Is there too much ground staff ?

Is it an issue with the Q400 ? Does this aircraft is still the best one to operate UK regionals routes ?


All good questions.

There have been numerous legacy issues that have hampered Flybe for some time. I really can't comment on the suitability or otherwise of the Dash 8's, though it seems to be widely acknowledged the E-Jet's have been the millstone around their neck ever since the order was first placed.
 
bennett123
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:23 pm

If the loan is on commercial terms, why not go to Connect or a bank?.
 
3AWM
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:47 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
A380MSN004 wrote:
Candid question from Someone who is not Living in the UK.
What are the real issue that led Flybe the actual situation ?

Is that an issue with the Low yields or load factors on certain routes ?

Is there too much ground staff ?

Is it an issue with the Q400 ? Does this aircraft is still the best one to operate UK regionals routes ?


All good questions.

There have been numerous legacy issues that have hampered Flybe for some time. I really can't comment on the suitability or otherwise of the Dash 8's, though it seems to be widely acknowledged the E-Jet's have been the millstone around their neck ever since the order was first placed.


If Flybe didn't exist someone would start it. There is a demand of these short frequent routes, sometimes at a big premium over a LCC fare and some routes are too thin for LCCs to operate.

The problem I see is there is only a limited number of these routes and Flybe have more aircraft than is needed to operate them. As half of the frames are on leases they can't just send them back they have to operate more routes than are really viable and at a lower margin than is really worthwhile to meet lease costs. This may further canibalise margins on routes with demand. As such they are locked into trying to unwind their lease position over the long term.

For similar reasons there also isn't much growth potential, the route to profitability is get smaller. This also makes it a less attractive investment proposition.
 
LHRFlyer
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:56 pm

bennett123 wrote:
If the loan is on commercial terms, why not go to Connect or a bank?.


A bank would require it to be secured against an asset which has a marketable value (eg LHR slots) which Flybe can’t offer.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:13 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
Candid question from Someone who is not Living in the UK.
What are the real issue that led Flybe the actual situation ?


No-one actually wants to fly many of the routes with any regularity, other than a few people who use them for a particular lifestyle (live in one place, work in another) and even those people are time and fare specific. The routes simply do not have the traffic, some of the routes should be public service subsidised probably (the islands, possibly some Belfast routes), but generally it's just a market that does not exist in sufficient numbers to serve.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:44 pm

3AWM wrote:
...

If Flybe didn't exist someone would start it. There is a demand of these short frequent routes, sometimes at a big premium over a LCC fare and some routes are too thin for LCCs to operate.
...


Quite right. The matter is that the existing iteration of FlyBe was created by ripping off previous shareholders (e.g. member "leghorn" here was one), and is being kept on artificial life support (at taxpayer's expense), preventing valuable slot portfolio from reverting to rightful owner (IAG, correct?).

You could argue that "someone would start it" from a clean sheet, not from continued pillaging of other people's coffers.
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3AWM
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:11 pm

The existing shareholders lost nothing because that is what Flybe Plc was worth. The ultimate losers will probably be the leaseholders if it goes into administration.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:33 pm

3AWM wrote:
The existing shareholders lost nothing because that is what Flybe Plc was worth. The ultimate losers will probably be the leaseholders if it goes into administration.

It's a hypothesis, not a fact. There is another hypothesis out there, actually somewhat more feasible:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1409057&p=21007687#p21075927

The fact that old shareholders were kicked out underhandedly is looking quite probable.
On the other hand, if Flybe was on the verge of collapse, the collapse would release a lot of value to interested third party (IAG via slots), while stopping value destruction through accumulated debt to the Exchequer (unpaid taxes).

A year later, the "New Flybe" is on life support, at government expense, to get it over the line into slot grandfathering date, and deny slots to IAG.

On the one hand, one almost admires this tight-rope walk. On the other hand, the end goal is clear -- it's a cash prize to a few folks who conspired around this asset, making sure everyone's claims are denied, except theirs...
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OA260
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:57 pm

Flybe confirms it was given 'tax holiday' to avoid collapse

Flybe has confirmed it has agreed a financial arrangement to defer tax payments of "less than £10m" with the UK's HM Revenue and Customs.

The airline, which was saved from collapse following a UK government intervention on Tuesday, said the deal "will only last a matter of months before all taxes and duties are paid in full".

It is understood the airline was allowed to defer its monthly air passenger duty (APD), which is paid by customers and collected by airlines to then be passed on to HMRC.

www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0117/1107 ... an-report/
 
spud757
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:41 pm

And today BE announce NQY-AMS and extra NQY-MAN. Sounds like a considered move to boost VS/DL/AF/KL connections ex-MAN and ex-AMS.

Free up LHR slots too for maybe CDG and or AMS services for KL/AF.

And at LGW, covers the PSO offering to the capital and maybe pick up some VS/DL connections in the process, plus any interline feed they have agreed with EK (and.... BA).
 
CrawleyBen
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:34 am

Flybe believed to be planning to launch Heathrow to Düsseldorf flights according to the article which I've linked below.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/ ... rf-service

Cheers

Ben
 
airhansa
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:53 am

Does anyone know the rough percentage of BE flights that are of passengers connecting to international destinations (outside the various islands around the UK)? Or even just the number of connecting passengers that use BE?
 
TC957
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:23 pm

CrawleyBen wrote:
Flybe believed to be planning to launch Heathrow to Düsseldorf flights according to the article which I've linked below.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/ ... rf-service

Cheers

Ben

What on earth for when BA & EW already have multi-daily flights. If Flybe want to have more presence at LHR, then maybe offering a service that isn't done by anyone else would be more useful, LPL and MME perhaps.
 
bennett123
Topic Author
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:37 pm

I thought that action by HMG was about connectivity.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:47 pm

TC957 wrote:
CrawleyBen wrote:
Flybe believed to be planning to launch Heathrow to Düsseldorf flights according to the article which I've linked below.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/ ... rf-service

Cheers

Ben

What on earth for when BA & EW already have multi-daily flights. If Flybe want to have more presence at LHR, then maybe offering a service that isn't done by anyone else would be more useful, LPL and MME perhaps.


I suspect it's more to do with capturing/generating traffic to connect onto VS flights.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:53 pm

I'm guessing a slot sitter, sending a Q400 to Dusseldorf as Virgin/Delta feed isn't the worst thing they could do.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:01 pm

APD should never have been a thing in the first place. Get rid, thanks!
 
TC957
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:13 pm

bennett123 wrote:
I thought that action by HMG was about connectivity.

Exactly…..and major population centres like Liverpool and Teeside need a London connection to spare people from old, expensive and overcrowded trains. And Flybe will have no direct competition, unlike a DUS flight.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:01 pm

TC957 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I thought that action by HMG was about connectivity.

Exactly…..and major population centres like Liverpool and Teeside need a London connection to spare people from old, expensive and overcrowded trains. And Flybe will have no direct competition, unlike a DUS flight.


Well, owners of FlyBe probably see these things differently. Now that they have a delay in tax liability, they need to carry FlyBe over the "slot grandfathering date" (or whatever it's called) with minimum losses.
So, as mentioned above, they need to operate some "slot-sitting" flights.

DUS-LHR probably brings some revenue on its own, plus increases connectivity for DL partner airlines (like VS). A chance to make some money, without diluting existing revenue/yields.

MME (Teesside)-LHR dilutes money-printing operation at MME for KLM (another DL partner) for... what exactly? So customers can play two DL partners against each other in their fare search?
So MME-LHR is a revenue- and yield-damaging approach (in the greater scheme of things). They don't want to take it.

Just so that we are clear. I know folks in Teesside area (frequent fliers on company dime), who have basically given up on London as a connection opportunity, and teleconference to avoid it as a business destination. Their FF loyalty is to KLM, and if FlyBe blips on a radar with a single daily flight to LHR for a while, before the next reshuffle, they will not alter travel patterns. Maybe less entrenched folks will be more keen.
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Bhoy
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:57 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
TC957 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I thought that action by HMG was about connectivity.

Exactly…..and major population centres like Liverpool and Teeside need a London connection to spare people from old, expensive and overcrowded trains. And Flybe will have no direct competition, unlike a DUS flight.


Well, owners of FlyBe probably see these things differently. Now that they have a delay in tax liability, they need to carry FlyBe over the "slot grandfathering date" (or whatever it's called) with minimum losses.
So, as mentioned above, they need to operate some "slot-sitting" flights.

DUS-LHR probably brings some revenue on its own, plus increases connectivity for DL partner airlines (like VS). A chance to make some money, without diluting existing revenue/yields.

MME (Teesside)-LHR dilutes money-printing operation at MME for KLM (another DL partner) for... what exactly? So customers can play two DL partners against each other in their fare search?
So MME-LHR is a revenue- and yield-damaging approach (in the greater scheme of things). They don't want to take it.

Just so that we are clear. I know folks in Teesside area (frequent fliers on company dime), who have basically given up on London as a connection opportunity, and teleconference to avoid it as a business destination. Their FF loyalty is to KLM, and if FlyBe blips on a radar with a single daily flight to LHR for a while, before the next reshuffle, they will not alter travel patterns. Maybe less entrenched folks will be more keen.
while I’m not suggesting MME-LHR would be viable for BE, your arguments are mute given that Delta, Virgin and KLM are in the same TATL joint venture, so wouldn’t be competing with each other on price, or on FF loyalty (assuming BE ever gets that aspect sorted out for the feeder :roll:)


While on paper DUS is somewhat of a random add, the thinking may well be that as BE have had based Aircraft at DUS for the last year or two, they’d have somewhat of brand to build on there (although again, how changing to Virgin Connect will affect that is another question totally).
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:23 pm

Bhoy wrote:
....while I’m not suggesting MME-LHR would be viable for BE, your arguments are mute given that Delta, Virgin and KLM are in the same TATL joint venture, so wouldn’t be competing with each other on price, or on FF loyalty (assuming BE ever gets that aspect sorted out for the feeder :roll:)

...

Same JV; my point precisely. But they would be chasing the same passenger pool with more MME connectivity. Giving them ideas about "choice" and "options", instead of steadily milking them via monopoly route to AMS. Not to mention adding capacity. Which would increase costs uselessly, probably will take yield dilution to fill, and most probably not deliver additional revenue.

Better send a plane to DUS -- where, as you've mentioned, exists some chance of more revenue.
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leghorn
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:05 pm

https://news.sky.com/story/javid-tells- ... e-11916415

Chancellor says it is not state aid, no siree. Fast-tracked E.U. Court case coming your way.
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:21 pm

I've searched through the thread for this but could not find it.

https://www.easternairways.com/news/66/ ... ernational

T3 under ACMI franchise on behalf of BE expanding network from MME. What is going on here, if I may ask? 2x daily LCY & SOU make sense, but only a daily service to DUB, BHD, CWL, what use is that to business traffic? They might get a bit of VFR but on thin routes do they really think they cam compete with the likes of U2 with multiple daily BFS-NCL sectors, for example?

That said, under such agreements it's never the franchise operator that takes the hit in the event of failure but the sponsor of the contract, ie Flybe. Is it wise to launch such an ambitious plan at this stage while the greater BE picture is yet to be painted?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
bennett123
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:04 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51244308

Not clear about two points;

1. Is the loan in addition to deferred APD?.

2. If the loan is on a commercial basis, why not go to a bank?
 
by738
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:08 am

Still odd that TCX and ZB were not party to these 'loans' and deferrals.
 
David_itl
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:27 am

Why is it odd? 2 airlines principally taking people on holiday and one airline offering domestic connectivity and frequency (2 to 4 flights per day) that in the hands of the complaining airlines would see the same major city to non-major city route operating 3 or 4 times per week which is hardly conducive to improving economic activity away from the London area.
 
bmibaby737
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:54 pm

BDKLEZ wrote:
I've searched through the thread for this but could not find it.

https://www.easternairways.com/news/66/ ... ernational

T3 under ACMI franchise on behalf of BE expanding network from MME. What is going on here, if I may ask? 2x daily LCY & SOU make sense, but only a daily service to DUB, BHD, CWL, what use is that to business traffic? They might get a bit of VFR but on thin routes do they really think they cam compete with the likes of U2 with multiple daily BFS-NCL sectors, for example?

That said, under such agreements it's never the franchise operator that takes the hit in the event of failure but the sponsor of the contract, ie Flybe. Is it wise to launch such an ambitious plan at this stage while the greater BE picture is yet to be painted?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


It's not an ACMI... Eastern Airways bare the cost of operating the flights, they pay Flybe to use their brand and website. Flybe has no financial impact on the poor performance of these new routes; only the negative impact on their image if delays and cancellations of the flights on the routes are promoted as Flybe rather than Eastern.
 
BritishB747
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:57 pm

BDKLEZ wrote:
I've searched through the thread for this but could not find it.

https://www.easternairways.com/news/66/ ... ernational

T3 under ACMI franchise on behalf of BE expanding network from MME. What is going on here, if I may ask? 2x daily LCY & SOU make sense, but only a daily service to DUB, BHD, CWL, what use is that to business traffic? They might get a bit of VFR but on thin routes do they really think they cam compete with the likes of U2 with multiple daily BFS-NCL sectors, for example?

That said, under such agreements it's never the franchise operator that takes the hit in the event of failure but the sponsor of the contract, ie Flybe. Is it wise to launch such an ambitious plan at this stage while the greater BE picture is yet to be painted?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Any idea what aircraft they will be using? I cant imagine MME will be high-traffic. Is a Jetstream 41 certified for LCY?
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SueD
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:35 pm

BritishB747 wrote:
BDKLEZ wrote:
I've searched through the thread for this but could not find it.

https://www.easternairways.com/news/66/ ... ernational

T3 under ACMI franchise on behalf of BE expanding network from MME. What is going on here, if I may ask? 2x daily LCY & SOU make sense, but only a daily service to DUB, BHD, CWL, what use is that to business traffic? They might get a bit of VFR but on thin routes do they really think they cam compete with the likes of U2 with multiple daily BFS-NCL sectors, for example?

That said, under such agreements it's never the franchise operator that takes the hit in the event of failure but the sponsor of the contract, ie Flybe. Is it wise to launch such an ambitious plan at this stage while the greater BE picture is yet to be painted?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Any idea what aircraft they will be using? I cant imagine MME will be high-traffic. Is a Jetstream 41 certified for LCY?


Yes the J41 is certified .
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:25 pm

David_itl wrote:
Why is it odd? 2 airlines principally taking people on holiday and one airline offering domestic connectivity and frequency (2 to 4 flights per day) that in the hands of the complaining airlines would see the same major city to non-major city route operating 3 or 4 times per week which is hardly conducive to improving economic activity away from the London area.


It's odd because I don't see the demand. What benefit does a 1x daily rotation into a non-existent "network" through MME bring? As I said previously, SOU & LCY make sense, but for the rest it seems like a complete corporate waste of time.
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
BDKLEZ
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:34 pm

bmibaby737 wrote:
BDKLEZ wrote:
I've searched through the thread for this but could not find it.

https://www.easternairways.com/news/66/ ... ernational

T3 under ACMI franchise on behalf of BE expanding network from MME. What is going on here, if I may ask? 2x daily LCY & SOU make sense, but only a daily service to DUB, BHD, CWL, what use is that to business traffic? They might get a bit of VFR but on thin routes do they really think they cam compete with the likes of U2 with multiple daily BFS-NCL sectors, for example?

That said, under such agreements it's never the franchise operator that takes the hit in the event of failure but the sponsor of the contract, ie Flybe. Is it wise to launch such an ambitious plan at this stage while the greater BE picture is yet to be painted?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


It's not an ACMI... Eastern Airways bare the cost of operating the flights, they pay Flybe to use their brand and website. Flybe has no financial impact on the poor performance of these new routes; only the negative impact on their image if delays and cancellations of the flights on the routes are promoted as Flybe rather than Eastern.


I'm afraid you're wrong, Eastern are the contracted party to operate on behalf of another. Any & all risk lies with the stakeholder.Did EI come out badly after Little Red?
Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again!
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:25 pm

I think it depends on the contracts, with Little Red, Air Lingus were a subcontractor with Virgin hiring the A320 and crew from EIN by the hour/day and deciding what routes to use them on and then selling the tickets. With Eastern and Flybe it's a franchise similar to things like Sun Air and Comair's deal with BA, BA providing marketing support and brand to a third party airline and routes as long as they meet BA's standards. The Franchisee takes the revenue risk, and decides what routes to fly (obviously not directly competing with the mothership) but benefits from the parent's marketing and brand.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:28 am

BA franchisees operate routes required by BA, that's that's whole point of having a franchisee that can operate routes better and/or cheaper than the franchisor. Interestingly BA CityFlyer, BA's wholly owned subsidiary at LCY, operates very much like a franchisee as all marketing is done by BA.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:32 am

gunnerman wrote:
BA franchisees operate routes required by BA, that's that's whole point of having a franchisee that can operate routes better and/or cheaper than the franchisor. Interestingly BA CityFlyer, BA's wholly owned subsidiary at LCY, operates very much like a franchisee as all marketing is done by BA.


That's not true for Sunair and Comair. As said, they are effectively independent airlines that simply use the BA brand for marketing and handling the reservations etc.

Both Eastern and Blue Islands (and Loganiar back in the day) operate this way as well. They make decisions about their own operations entirely independent of FlyBe.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Andy33
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:54 am

TC957 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
I thought that action by HMG was about connectivity.

Exactly…..and major population centres like Liverpool and Teeside need a London connection to spare people from old, expensive and overcrowded trains. And Flybe will have no direct competition, unlike a DUS flight.


What old trains are these offering a connection to London from Teeside? (I'll give you expensive and overcrowded). The entire fleet has just been replaced with brand new trains. Liverpool still has middle-aged trains on its London services, much the same age as some of Flybe's fleet in fact...

Local trains on the other hand can indeed be elderly, but then these don't run to London from either place.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:59 am

bennett123 wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51244308

Not clear about two points;

1. Is the loan in addition to deferred APD?.

2. If the loan is on a commercial basis, why not go to a bank?


A bank would want some sort of asset to secure a loan against, whereas the government might not. That said, we don't know whether the banks had been approached for a loan first.

by738 wrote:
Still odd that TCX and ZB were not party to these 'loans' and deferrals.


Monarch had been struggling for a number of years before they finally collapsed and they had a lot of competition who could (and did) swoop in to soak up some of the lost capacity. Similar with Thomas Cook, they weren't the only player in the market plus they were to all intents and purposes a multinational organisation. Flybe is a different proposition in the sense they don't compete on a good number of routes. Why is it that other airlines aren't falling over themselves to launch competing services on more routes than they actually do?

It's not difficult to understand the difference between Flybe and Monarch/Thomas Cook in the grand scheme of things.
 
bennett123
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:32 pm

So how would the loan be on a commercial basis?.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:41 pm

bennett123 wrote:
So how would the loan be on a commercial basis?.


I presume it means similar terms such as a commercial interest rate and not something unrealistic.

gunnerman wrote:
BA franchisees operate routes required by BA, that's that's whole point of having a franchisee that can operate routes better and/or cheaper than the franchisor. Interestingly BA CityFlyer, BA's wholly owned subsidiary at LCY, operates very much like a franchisee as all marketing is done by BA.


That's not correct. The BA franchisees operate independently and decide their routes obviously there will be co-operation but they don't just operate what BA tell them to. That would be the point of a subsidiary.
 
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Richard28
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:02 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
So how would the loan be on a commercial basis?.


I presume it means similar terms such as a commercial interest rate and not something unrealistic.


But interest rates for secured and unsecured loans are materially different.

You cannot have a loan on a "commercial basis" if it is an unsecured loan with the effective rate of a secured loan. Its like leasing a Ferrari at the rate of a Ford fiesta and saying it is a commercial car lease rate.

That it would appear flybe cannot get such a loan from a bank speaks volumes that this is unlikely to be at a commercial rate relative to the terms.
 
8herveg
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Re: When can we expect an announcement for the Virgin Atlantic/Virgin Connect plans?

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:51 am

Anyone know if there are any updates on this? There was talk of LAX offering 2 x weekly in the winter and an additional JFK on some days too. Can anyone shed any light? Thought any announcements would have happened by now, or was the announcement about increases to BGI, LAS and MCO it?
 
FB330
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:16 am

The MME-LCY flights will be on a Saab 2000. As will the Dublin flights. The rest will be on J41.

I'm still unclear how this all interacts with Flybe (whether Flybe are the lead with Eastern Operating, or whether Eastern are the lead with FlyBe codesharing).
 
skipness1E
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:29 am

It's Eastern, the only flybe aspect is booking via the flybe website and any connections involved. Commercial and route planning sits with T3, the only caveats being they're not going to compete with flybe head to head on a route.
Eastern used to fly NCL-LCY on the J41 but as soons as the discounted landing fees period ended, the route just couldn't pay it's way. From memory, the charging regime at LCY changed to favour the bigger jets and the additional costs hammered the smaller operators.
 
8herveg
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Re: When can we expect an announcement for the Virgin Atlantic/Virgin Connect plans?

Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:01 pm

8herveg wrote:
Anyone know if there are any updates on this? There was talk of LAX offering 2 x weekly in the winter and an additional JFK on some days too. Can anyone shed any light? Thought any announcements would have happened by now, or was the announcement about increases to BGI, LAS and MCO it?


Somehow, my post has landed on this thread, rather than another, older thread which was about VS's expansion plans from MAN. Very strange....
 
FB330
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Re: Flybe News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:40 pm

skipness1E wrote:
It's Eastern, the only flybe aspect is booking via the flybe website and any connections involved. Commercial and route planning sits with T3, the only caveats being they're not going to compete with flybe head to head on a route.
Eastern used to fly NCL-LCY on the J41 but as soons as the discounted landing fees period ended, the route just couldn't pay it's way. From memory, the charging regime at LCY changed to favour the bigger jets and the additional costs hammered the smaller operators.


So, in effect FlyBe are marketing and codesharing but that's it. I wonder if you can still buy direct with Eastern? Haven't tried in a long time.

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