User001
Posts: 889
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:37 am

I wonder if they will place a business product on the aircraft?


Secondly, there is no way they will offer a proper business class seat


Virgin have very recently started canvassing their frequent flyer customers asking opinions on a potential short haul business class product. So, whether they carry it out or not, they are clearly *thinking* about it.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:43 am

seansasLCY wrote:
TurnaroudUK wrote:
I wonder if they will place a business product on the aircraft? If so do they go for a European model (Normal seat with no one sitting next to you) or a proper business seat like with Virgin Australia.
With regards to their fleet I think they will try and get an all jet fleet perhaps. There are not many Embraer E2 Jet orders on the books, they could get a very good deal for them making them more appealing then a DASH or A220.


If they stick with Flybe’s current premise of domestic and short haul links then they won’t rush to go all jet. They are actually trying to get rid of jets.

Secondly, there is no way they will offer a proper business class seat. They mainly operate 1hr flights. There is no need.


I totally agree. The suggestion of “real” business class and all-jet fleet misunderstands the flyBe network and reality of European short-haul operations. The focus on connections vastly overestimates the overlap between flyBe and VS. LittleRed offered no perks to VS connecting customers and was a one-cabin service.

flyBe have extremely limited presence at LHR and nothing at LGW. Manchester is different, BE fly many places but VS have a limited network. AF, KL and DL might find the VS coded services to UK regions more use at AMS and CDG than Virgin themselves will at LHR it MAN.

As for baggage charges - if people can’t stick to the clearly advised T&Cs at booking and check-in, they can expect a penalty - also advised at the time of booking & check-in.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:03 am

BrianDromey wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
TurnaroudUK wrote:
I wonder if they will place a business product on the aircraft? If so do they go for a European model (Normal seat with no one sitting next to you) or a proper business seat like with Virgin Australia.
With regards to their fleet I think they will try and get an all jet fleet perhaps. There are not many Embraer E2 Jet orders on the books, they could get a very good deal for them making them more appealing then a DASH or A220.


If they stick with Flybe’s current premise of domestic and short haul links then they won’t rush to go all jet. They are actually trying to get rid of jets.

Secondly, there is no way they will offer a proper business class seat. They mainly operate 1hr flights. There is no need.


I totally agree. The suggestion of “real” business class and all-jet fleet misunderstands the flyBe network and reality of European short-haul operations. The focus on connections vastly overestimates the overlap between flyBe and VS. LittleRed offered no perks to VS connecting customers and was a one-cabin service.

flyBe have extremely limited presence at LHR and nothing at LGW. Manchester is different, BE fly many places but VS have a limited network. AF, KL and DL might find the VS coded services to UK regions more use at AMS and CDG than Virgin themselves will at LHR it MAN.

As for baggage charges - if people can’t stick to the clearly advised T&Cs at booking and check-in, they can expect a penalty - also advised at the time of booking & check-in.


I think these are all valid points - as things stand.

However I think analysing what DL/AF/KL want VS to be, and what VS wants “Virgin Connect” to be by reference to the existing VS and BE networks is highly unlikely to lead to accurate mid to long-term conclusions.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:48 am

User001 wrote:
I wonder if they will place a business product on the aircraft?


Secondly, there is no way they will offer a proper business class seat


Virgin have very recently started canvassing their frequent flyer customers asking opinions on a potential short haul business class product. So, whether they carry it out or not, they are clearly *thinking* about it.


BA regularly survey customers asking about opinions and wants. What happens? Legroom gets tighter and services get cut on the basis of that’s what the feedback said.

There is a reason that other than Aeroflot and Turkish, no European carrier is regularly offering such seats. It doesn’t make financial sense.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:53 am

DobboDobbo wrote:

I think these are all valid points - as things stand.

However I think analysing what DL/AF/KL want VS to be, and what VS wants “Virgin Connect” to be by reference to the existing VS and BE networks is highly unlikely to lead to accurate mid to long-term conclusions.


Taking the wider AF/KL/DL business into account is a good point, although its worth remembering that VS has historically been an O&D airline, despite flirting with bmi and wet-leasing A320s for LittleRed, it particularly explains why VS never joined a formal alliance, but has had so many partnerships over the years. VS strength, much like BA, lies in links to North America and the DL relationship works well for them. I don’t think that will change long term.

The reality remains that VS and BE currently have little synergy. Most of the BE network doesn’t touch hub airports - which is flyBes marketing line. I cant see the network changing hugely at LHR, unless VS/KL/DL/AF give up slots to Connect and I don’t think Connect can get anymore slots from the bmi remedy pool either, so the status-quo will be maintained until the opening of the 3rd runway.

Overall, until the 3rd runway opens, the relationship between BE & VS is likely to be mainly in the FFP and marketing areas, this is not a bad thing. I just don’t see how the transformation of the flyBe business into a US-style all-RJ feeder at LHR is realistic.
 
leghorn
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:54 am

BrianDromey wrote:
As for baggage charges - if people can’t stick to the clearly advised T&Cs at booking and check-in, they can expect a penalty - also advised at the time of booking & check-in.

The charge of 50 pounds sterling is entirely disproportionate to the nature of the transgression(1cm larger than the frame or the straps of the bag not resting flush within the sizing frame and spilling out over the side) or the actual cost of the remedy(putting it in the hold) and it reeks to high heaven of sharp practice.
You are blaming the many victims of a mean and nasty policy.

I'm someone who has no problems with Low Cost Carriers' tight enforcement of their cabin baggage policies but this is an entirely different beast and FlyBE deserve all the bad reputation that this policy garners for them. Shame on them.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:13 am

leghorn wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
As for baggage charges - if people can’t stick to the clearly advised T&Cs at booking and check-in, they can expect a penalty - also advised at the time of booking & check-in.

The charge of 50 pounds sterling is entirely disproportionate to the nature of the transgression(1cm larger than the frame or the straps of the bag not resting flush within the sizing frame and spilling out over the side) or the actual cost of the remedy(putting it in the hold) and it reeks to high heaven of sharp practice.
You are blaming the many victims of a mean and nasty policy.

I'm someone who has no problems with Low Cost Carriers' tight enforcement of their cabin baggage policies but this is an entirely different beast and FlyBE deserve all the bad reputation that this policy garners for them. Shame on them.


There also seems to be a lot of passengers who were allowed to travel one way with the bag and then told on the return that it’s too big. Either use the rules or don’t.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 300
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:17 am

The baggage sizers and Flybe formal policies have the advantage that they are simple to evaluate, consistent and you can't claim there is any bias towards one customer over another

Brits complain deeply when one customer is perceived to get unequal treatment, so airlines respond by creating arbitrary rules. When comeone breaks the rules, people then say they want staff to bend the rules and not follow a policy consistently. The airline cannot win !

The only option which then seems to work is follow a Ryanair style approach - namely be so bloody minded that people know policy breaches will get you nowhere (ie pay up or your bags don't fly) and any complaints to customer services after the event will be a waste of time
 
bennett123
Topic Author
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:42 am

I was never sure why they failed to make Little Red work.

I was working in EDI at that time and flying home at weekends.

The price was not excessive but the plane was half empty.

The BA flights apparently made money.

Hopefully VS will do better with BE.
 
leghorn
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:55 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
The baggage sizers and Flybe formal policies have the advantage that they are simple to evaluate, consistent and you can't claim there is any bias towards one customer over another

They are not consistent. Twitter is awash with reports from Customers who have been charged the 50 pound sterling charge while others with the same model of bag are not and also complaining about how their bag was perfectly fine for the outbound flight but charged on the return flight.
 
3AWM
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:00 pm

The problem with the Q400s is there overhead bin is too small for a standard cabin bag and there isn't much room under the seat. To add to the mix a lot of people getting those flights are only doing the trips for a few days and just want carry-on anyway.

It just doesn't lend it self to the baggage extra model in the same way that 737s and A320s do. Really everyone who can needs to check their bag on a Q400 as it restricts room in the cabin otherwise. There a few passengers so the bags are generally out pretty quick anyway.

They should change the pricing so anyone with a bag under 7kg can check it anyway for free and only charge extra for big luggage and multiple items.
 
User avatar
Aisak
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:37 pm

3AWM wrote:
The problem with the Q400s is there overhead bin is too small for a standard cabin bag and there isn't much room under the seat. To add to the mix a lot of people getting those flights are only doing the trips for a few days and just want carry-on anyway.


Several Regionals around Europe have been using a more creative solution for years. I think AF regional even had a brand for it: Valet Luggage. You just attach an info tag with a simple cord to the carry on and hand it over to the handling staff at the ramp. All this luggage is delivered back at the ramp at destination as you walk down the stairs so you can skip the typical long waiting of checked items.

I’ve flown dozens of flights on IB regional and I can’t remember a single carry on suitcase on board thanks to this simple procedure.

But if you want to make money out of it...
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:11 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:

I think these are all valid points - as things stand.

However I think analysing what DL/AF/KL want VS to be, and what VS wants “Virgin Connect” to be by reference to the existing VS and BE networks is highly unlikely to lead to accurate mid to long-term conclusions.


Taking the wider AF/KL/DL business into account is a good point, although its worth remembering that VS has historically been an O&D airline, despite flirting with bmi and wet-leasing A320s for LittleRed, it particularly explains why VS never joined a formal alliance, but has had so many partnerships over the years. VS strength, much like BA, lies in links to North America and the DL relationship works well for them. I don’t think that will change long term.

The reality remains that VS and BE currently have little synergy. Most of the BE network doesn’t touch hub airports - which is flyBes marketing line. I cant see the network changing hugely at LHR, unless VS/KL/DL/AF give up slots to Connect and I don’t think Connect can get anymore slots from the bmi remedy pool either, so the status-quo will be maintained until the opening of the 3rd runway.

Overall, until the 3rd runway opens, the relationship between BE & VS is likely to be mainly in the FFP and marketing areas, this is not a bad thing. I just don’t see how the transformation of the flyBe business into a US-style all-RJ feeder at LHR is realistic.


I agree - if you base your analysis on the here and now (which is, I think, your central point.

However, if you believe the vast number of quotes in the public domain (including comments by the VS CEO and statements made in court documents) that make it clear the BE network inherited is going to be changed significantly.

This makes sense, because otherwise VS, DL et al could only be throwing good money after bad, and I think it’s reasonable to presume they have a robust plan (and not one which is reliant on LHR runway three, which is at best unlikely to proceed).
 
ORDfan101
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:22 pm

Does anyone think that a fly be/ virgin order of a a321s and a220s would make sense? I’m not an expert but I believe that the e195 was not the right plane but with virgins long haul network, could they make it work?
 
3AWM
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:45 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
However, if you believe the vast number of quotes in the public domain (including comments by the VS CEO and statements made in court documents) that make it clear the BE network inherited is going to be changed significantly.


Can you quote any sources to substantiate this?

I don't see VS making any major changes to the BE network as those route are where the demand is. It doesn't make any sense to move to operating dramatically different routes as this could have been achieved organically taking 1 aircraft at a time to serve the new routes.

I think what is likely to happen post AF/KLM buy in is Connect will start operating connecting flights to CDG and AMS currently operated by AF and KLM. This amongst other things can reduce consolidate demand (Flybe is the main competitor at a lot of UK airports), free up AMS slots to be operated on other routes by KLM and likely reduce the cost base on those flights.

I also think the Q400 is here to stay, partly because there are lease commitments to it but partly because it's the right size for a lot of the routes and it gives a similar journey time to a jet. I don't see BE operating 737s or A320s because they are too big to fill at the frequencies BE need to operate at, particularly if they need to operate connections. There could be a space for the A220 though as this would allow some routes to be upgauged and open up some thin further afield routes.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:07 pm

3AWM wrote:
Can you quote any sources to substantiate this?


Yes - as stated above there is a huge raft of material in the public domain. The statements are pretty clear on the direction of travel.

Link to Court document.

https://www.flybe.com/application/files ... cement.pdf

Selected quotes from court document:

“The Acquisition will enable Flybe to benefit from committed strategic investment partners in terms of Cyrus, Stobart Group and Virgin Atlantic (through Connect Airways) and from an enhanced presence at London Heathrow Airport and Manchester Airport”


“Background to and reasons for the Acquisition
Virgin Atlantic, Stobart Group and Cyrus represent an exciting combination:
• The Virgin Atlantic brand is built on the foundation of putting customers at the heart of everything, providing customers with the choice they deserve and a travel experience they love. Virgin Atlantic’s extensive long-haul network will provide enhanced connectivity for regional traffic at London Heathrow Airport and Manchester Airport”



The combination of Flybe and Stobart Air and a deep partnership with Virgin Atlantic will create a fully-fledged UK network carrier under the Virgin Atlantic brand, alongside the Stobart Air wet lease operations and aircraft leasing business which will continue to operate as it does today. The Combined Group will maintain Flybe’s current UK regional focus, and enhance its European footprint


Link to Press release:

https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb ... irmed.html

Selected Quotes from press release:

The Combined Group will offer significant benefits for customers:

Deliver more choice to customers by linking UK regions and Ireland to Virgin Atlantic’s extensive long-haul network through improved connectivity at Manchester Airport and London Heathrow

Provide the Combined Group with an enhanced presence at Manchester Airport , London Heathrow Airport, with the potential to grow further in London Southend Airport
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:17 pm

But where does it say they are going to change the network? All of these things are achieved by buying Flybe as is.

"The Combined Group will maintain Flybe’s current UK regional focus"
Last edited by 3AWM on Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
Topic Author
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:18 pm

Not sure how SEN fits in.

Are VS planning to fly from there or transfer passengers across from LHR.
 
David_itl
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:18 pm

Looking at the BE/VS presence at MAN, you can see why they want to tweak the connectivity.. The table below is extracted from Flightradar 24 but I've banked ti for an arbitrary 40 minute connection and put in punk the long-haul routes operating less then 5 weekly (disregarded the days of operation for them as I'd like to think VS would focus on getting frequencies that would tempt their premium frequent flyer to not think "I have to get to LHR to get a non-stop flight to BOS/LAX on the day I want to travel and not connect over ATL/JFK"

Image
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 166
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:22 pm

David_itl wrote:
Looking at the BE/VS presence at MAN, you can see why they want to tweak the connectivity.. The table below is extracted from Flightradar 24 but I've banked ti for an arbitrary 40 minute connection and put in punk the long-haul routes operating less then 5 weekly (disregarded the days of operation for them as I'd like to think VS would focus on getting frequencies that would tempt their premium frequent flyer to not think "I have to get to LHR to get a non-stop flight to BOS/LAX on the day I want to travel and not connect over ATL/JFK"

Image


This is forgetting something else. Lets not forget they have put in a bid for Thomas Cook, which, if successful, will boost MAN departures quite significantly.
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:27 pm

3AWM wrote:
But where does it say they are going to change the network? All of these things are achieved by buying Flybe as is.


I think the phrases “enhance its European footprint” and “improved connectivity at Manchester Airport and London Heathrow” and “enhanced presence at Manchester Airport , London Heathrow Airport” are a bit of a giveaway...
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:29 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Not sure how SEN fits in.

Are VS planning to fly from there or transfer passengers across from LHR.


Stobart own SEN - so this is really about what Stobard want from the transaction - to build up services at SEN.

What is interesting in all of the press releases is no mention of LGW. Flybe was also allowed to sell their LGW slots just before the deal was announced so do VS want to stay at LGW or could the end up splitting London services between LHR/LCY and SEN?
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:33 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
3AWM wrote:
But where does it say they are going to change the network? All of these things are achieved by buying Flybe as is.


I think the phrases “enhance its European footprint” and “improved connectivity at Manchester Airport and London Heathrow” and “enhanced presence at Manchester Airport , London Heathrow Airport” are a bit of a giveaway...


As I said this is what the transaction achieves (by adding Flybe's network to VS's), it doesn't say anything about changing Flybe's network.

"The Combined Group will offer significant benefits for customers." It's about what the combination achieves not about any intent for the network.

It wouldn't really make any commercial sense to buy the airline if they wanted to operate an entirely different route profile.
 
bx737
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:47 am

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:42 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
leghorn wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
As for baggage charges - if people can’t stick to the clearly advised T&Cs at booking and check-in, they can expect a penalty - also advised at the time of booking & check-in.

The charge of 50 pounds sterling is entirely disproportionate to the nature of the transgression(1cm larger than the frame or the straps of the bag not resting flush within the sizing frame and spilling out over the side) or the actual cost of the remedy(putting it in the hold) and it reeks to high heaven of sharp practice.
You are blaming the many victims of a mean and nasty policy.

I'm someone who has no problems with Low Cost Carriers' tight enforcement of their cabin baggage policies but this is an entirely different beast and FlyBE deserve all the bad reputation that this policy garners for them. Shame on them.


There also seems to be a lot of passengers who were allowed to travel one way with the bag and then told on the return that it’s too big. Either use the rules or don’t.


My wife fell victim to this. The bag was the same outbound as inbound. During her stay in the UK the baggage policy changed, she received no notification of the changes and got slapped with the £50 charge. The check-in agent apologised and said Flybe had changed the rules, didn’t tell passengers and a lot of passengers were furious about the way the changes were implemented.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:52 pm

3AWM wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
3AWM wrote:
But where does it say they are going to change the network? All of these things are achieved by buying Flybe as is.


I think the phrases “enhance its European footprint” and “improved connectivity at Manchester Airport and London Heathrow” and “enhanced presence at Manchester Airport , London Heathrow Airport” are a bit of a giveaway...


As I said this is what the transaction achieves (by adding Flybe's network to VS's), it doesn't say anything about changing Flybe's network.

"The Combined Group will offer significant benefits for customers." It's about what the combination achieves not about any intent for the network.

It wouldn't really make any commercial sense to buy the airline if they wanted to operate an entirely different route profile.


I’ve pointed out express statements that clearly Set out that changes will be made to the inherited FlyBe network to achieve the synergies they want to achieve. If you expect Connect to set out the detail of its network plans before they have received regulatory approval I’d say that view is misguided.

I also disagree with the final statement - I don’t see the commercial sense in buying an airline (which was one day from going into an insolvency process) changing nothing and expecting a different outcome (ie for it to make money).

BE obviously needs significant change, and the public statements are consistent with that being the intention.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:12 pm

bx737 wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
leghorn wrote:
The charge of 50 pounds sterling is entirely disproportionate to the nature of the transgression(1cm larger than the frame or the straps of the bag not resting flush within the sizing frame and spilling out over the side) or the actual cost of the remedy(putting it in the hold) and it reeks to high heaven of sharp practice.
You are blaming the many victims of a mean and nasty policy.

I'm someone who has no problems with Low Cost Carriers' tight enforcement of their cabin baggage policies but this is an entirely different beast and FlyBE deserve all the bad reputation that this policy garners for them. Shame on them.


There also seems to be a lot of passengers who were allowed to travel one way with the bag and then told on the return that it’s too big. Either use the rules or don’t.


My wife fell victim to this. The bag was the same outbound as inbound. During her stay in the UK the baggage policy changed, she received no notification of the changes and got slapped with the £50 charge. The check-in agent apologised and said Flybe had changed the rules, didn’t tell passengers and a lot of passengers were furious about the way the changes were implemented.

I've been flying flybe almost weekly for the last 8 months; they've been at pains to point out in the inflight magazine since January (when the sizers started appearing at Gates) that the size limit hasn't changed, they're just proactively enforcing the established size limitations "in the interests of fairness to all our Passengers" :roll:

I've got a soft sided canvas roll on that has had a purple flybe label on it since February, it hasn't been in a sizer since then, as the Gate agents always acknowledge the label. There's been one or two occasions since when I've had to open the case on board to move stuff (generally when I've not packed stuff properly after taking my laptop out at Security and just thrown stuff in higgledy piggeldy) to get the case to fit in the Q400 overhead lockers, and I know in those cases there's no way it wouldn't have fit it the sizer without repacking, but the bag always ends up fitting in the lockers. Not sure they'd allow repacking like that at the gate, though.
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:02 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
3AWM wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
I’ve pointed out express statements that clearly Set out that changes will be made to the inherited FlyBe network to achieve the synergies they want to achieve. If you expect Connect to set out the detail of its network plans before they have received regulatory approval I’d say that view is misguided.

I also disagree with the final statement - I don’t see the commercial sense in buying an airline (which was one day from going into an insolvency process) changing nothing and expecting a different outcome (ie for it to make money).

BE obviously needs significant change, and the public statements are consistent with that being the intention.


When one company buys another they always make a press release explaining what that does for their business right now, this is what you are linking to.

I think your are just reading into what you'd like it to say because that isn't what it says to me.

As you correctly note Flybe was facing insolvency there really wasn't any need for VS to buy it unless they wanted it to remain in tact. Sure they can make network tweaks, improve timings, network pricing etc but I don't think they are going to make any major changes to the network and I don't think there are really any significant opportunities to add many more destinations than the currently cover.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:34 pm

3AWM wrote:
When one company buys another they always make a press release explaining what that does for their business right now, this is what you are linking to.


A few posts above you were asking for sources, I identified the press release (amongst other material) which explains the Connect Airways consortium’s intentions for making the purchase (in summary: synergies across the group) and how they propose to unlock those (changes in the legacy BE network to feed an enhanced presence at MAN and LHR).

I parroted this back to you, and you are now trying to row back from your previous (clearly wrong) assertions that Connect would feed KL at AMS and AF at CDG and nothing more.

I have pointed out my sources, when challenged by you, and you have chosen to ignore them (which is not surprising because they discredit your position).

Further information on the plans for Connect Airways can be found online, should you wish to see this message repeated elsewhere.

3AWM wrote:
I think your are just reading into what you'd like it to say because that isn't what it says to me.


As stated above, I parroted back to you the public statements by VS, and the Connect Airways consortium. This is not me interpreting anything.

As noted above, for reasons stated above, you have chosen to ignore those sources.

3AWM wrote:
As you correctly note Flybe was facing insolvency there really wasn't any need for VS to buy it unless they wanted it to remain in tact. Sure they can make network tweaks, improve timings, network pricing etc but I don't think they are going to make any major changes to the network and I don't think there are really any significant opportunities to add many more destinations than the currently cover.


Again, I have highlighted the public statements on the changes they want to make (for example the increased European footprint). You may be right that changes, tweaks come in the short term (some already have) but the clear and significant change of focus of the legacy BE network is expressly set out in the publicly available information.
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:14 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
However, if you believe the vast number of quotes in the public domain (including comments by the VS CEO and statements made in court documents) that make it clear the BE network inherited is going to be changed significantly.


Well this is the line I took issue with. I don't see a "vast number of quotes online" I see the original press release presented in a number of different ways - ie one quote.

That quote does not "make it clear the BE network inherited is going to be changed significantly."

I'm not rowing back from my comments at all I stand by them 100%, sure there are going to be tweaks to the network but I don't see the network being changed significantly. Maybe your idea of changed significantly is different to mine but I can't see this being quoted from the links you have provided.

Also buying Flybe does give VS and increase European footprint as they operate a lot a flights in Europe, both in the UK and in mainland Europe that VS don't operate. Germany, France, Netherlands, Italy they already operate to. But really I'm not ruling out expansion I'd just saying their won't be changes to the existing network.
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:27 am

3AWM wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:


Well this is the line I took issue with. I don't see a "vast number of quotes online" I see the original press release presented in a number of different ways - ie one quote.

That quote does not "make it clear the BE network inherited is going to be changed significantly."

I'm not rowing back from my comments at all I stand by them 100%, sure there are going to be tweaks to the network but I don't see the network being changed significantly. Maybe your idea of changed significantly is different to mine but I can't see this being quoted from the links you have provided.

Also buying Flybe does give VS and increase European footprint as they operate a lot a flights in Europe, both in the UK and in mainland Europe that VS don't operate. Germany, France, Netherlands, Italy they already operate to. But really I'm not ruling out expansion I'd just saying their won't be changes to the existing network.


I accept that our ideas of the meaning of “changed significantly” could be different, but that doesn’t explain the position you’ve taken through these exchanges.

It is clear that before making your initial points you could not have read or seen the material from VS, Connect or the Group, and your points were at odds with the statements by them. To assert that all you see is one quote, in light of the sample I’ve provided above and having made you aware that this material exists and can be found by a simple search of the internet, is a narrow approach to say the least.

The quotes I have provided (and the additional material that is available online) clearly point to how and why the respective networks of Connect, VS and the wider group are to be changed in order to release the synergies of the acquisition, and these directly contradict your position (which as noted above was clearly made without you having seen this material).

There is also the matter of how the subsequent actions by BE (closing Cardiff and Doncaster) and VS (looking to acquire TCX’s long haul business) are in line with the the stated intentions I have highlighted to you.

Your refusal to accept clear statements from or on behalf of the parties involved is baffling to say the least (although I note you appear to accept the statements as regards the Stobart group’s intentions at SEN - which further highlights your inconsistent and confused approach in dealing with the evidence presented to you).

It is a matter for you as to whether you want to continue to stand by inconsistent comments that run contrary to the available evidence, but absent credible and substantiated further comment I’m not going to address this issue further.
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:40 am

bx737 wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
leghorn wrote:
The charge of 50 pounds sterling is entirely disproportionate to the nature of the transgression(1cm larger than the frame or the straps of the bag not resting flush within the sizing frame and spilling out over the side) or the actual cost of the remedy(putting it in the hold) and it reeks to high heaven of sharp practice.
You are blaming the many victims of a mean and nasty policy.

I'm someone who has no problems with Low Cost Carriers' tight enforcement of their cabin baggage policies but this is an entirely different beast and FlyBE deserve all the bad reputation that this policy garners for them. Shame on them.


There also seems to be a lot of passengers who were allowed to travel one way with the bag and then told on the return that it’s too big. Either use the rules or don’t.


My wife fell victim to this. The bag was the same outbound as inbound. During her stay in the UK the baggage policy changed, she received no notification of the changes and got slapped with the £50 charge. The check-in agent apologised and said Flybe had changed the rules, didn’t tell passengers and a lot of passengers were furious about the way the changes were implemented.


The sizes have actually remained the same for a few years (2016, i recall?), but it's only in the last 6 or so months they have enforced the rules, following an increase in problems inside the cabin. If the bag is exactly within the dimensions it will fit, and this has been independently verified after Trading Standards made an unannounced inspection, complete with fancy measuring tape! Their is some inconsistency with enforcement, partly because airport staff have received a disgusting amount of abuse (physical, threats, being spat at etc.), with no backup from the airline (so i don't blame the staff), but also because the airline uses a metal or cardboard sizer, depending on airport. Both are bigger than the stated dimensions, but the cardboard one is the biggest, so even an overstuffed bag may fit in one but not the other.

My personal opinion is that Flybe should do what EasyJet and Ryanair do, offer a check cabin bag checkin service for £5-10, and if anyone wants to take a trolley case onboard they have to pay a small premium/priority boarding?

Someone else on here mentioned a valet service, that was planned but it eats into the tiny 25 minute turnarounds, and the airline won't pay for extra staff to handle this..quelle surprise!
 
Blankbarcode
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:10 am

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:27 am

opticalilyushin wrote:
bx737 wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:

There also seems to be a lot of passengers who were allowed to travel one way with the bag and then told on the return that it’s too big. Either use the rules or don’t.


My wife fell victim to this. The bag was the same outbound as inbound. During her stay in the UK the baggage policy changed, she received no notification of the changes and got slapped with the £50 charge. The check-in agent apologised and said Flybe had changed the rules, didn’t tell passengers and a lot of passengers were furious about the way the changes were implemented.


The sizes have actually remained the same for a few years (2016, i recall?), but it's only in the last 6 or so months they have enforced the rules, following an increase in problems inside the cabin. If the bag is exactly within the dimensions it will fit, and this has been independently verified after Trading Standards made an unannounced inspection, complete with fancy measuring tape! Their is some inconsistency with enforcement, partly because airport staff have received a disgusting amount of abuse (physical, threats, being spat at etc.), with no backup from the airline (so i don't blame the staff), but also because the airline uses a metal or cardboard sizer, depending on airport. Both are bigger than the stated dimensions, but the cardboard one is the biggest, so even an overstuffed bag may fit in one but not the other.

My personal opinion is that Flybe should do what EasyJet and Ryanair do, offer a check cabin bag checkin service for £5-10, and if anyone wants to take a trolley case onboard they have to pay a small premium/priority boarding?

Someone else on here mentioned a valet service, that was planned but it eats into the tiny 25 minute turnarounds, and the airline won't pay for extra staff to handle this..quelle surprise!


Also worth noting is how often passengers tend to buy souvenirs, clothes, and other things at their destination, yet are oh so surprised when "but it fit on the way here" isn't good enough. In an age where passengers are hypercritical of perceived inequality, you HAVE to be strict by the centimeter so they understand the rules for their next trip. It's the only way they'll learn.

Stupid policy? Maybe.
Are the passengers blameless in this? Absolutely not.

Source: I work as a passenger service agent (and far too tired of the excuses I hear)
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:47 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
bx737 wrote:

My wife fell victim to this. The bag was the same outbound as inbound. During her stay in the UK the baggage policy changed, she received no notification of the changes and got slapped with the £50 charge. The check-in agent apologised and said Flybe had changed the rules, didn’t tell passengers and a lot of passengers were furious about the way the changes were implemented.


The sizes have actually remained the same for a few years (2016, i recall?), but it's only in the last 6 or so months they have enforced the rules, following an increase in problems inside the cabin. If the bag is exactly within the dimensions it will fit, and this has been independently verified after Trading Standards made an unannounced inspection, complete with fancy measuring tape! Their is some inconsistency with enforcement, partly because airport staff have received a disgusting amount of abuse (physical, threats, being spat at etc.), with no backup from the airline (so i don't blame the staff), but also because the airline uses a metal or cardboard sizer, depending on airport. Both are bigger than the stated dimensions, but the cardboard one is the biggest, so even an overstuffed bag may fit in one but not the other.

My personal opinion is that Flybe should do what EasyJet and Ryanair do, offer a check cabin bag checkin service for £5-10, and if anyone wants to take a trolley case onboard they have to pay a small premium/priority boarding?

Someone else on here mentioned a valet service, that was planned but it eats into the tiny 25 minute turnarounds, and the airline won't pay for extra staff to handle this..quelle surprise!


Also worth noting is how often passengers tend to buy souvenirs, clothes, and other things at their destination, yet are oh so surprised when "but it fit on the way here" isn't good enough. In an age where passengers are hypercritical of perceived inequality, you HAVE to be strict by the centimeter so they understand the rules for their next trip. It's the only way they'll learn.

Stupid policy? Maybe.
Are the passengers blameless in this? Absolutely not.

Source: I work as a passenger service agent (and far too tired of the excuses I hear)


Of course passengers are not blameless but other airlines manage to enforce their requirements without being blasted constantly on social media. SAS check bag sizes but I've not seen it all over twitter. When you search for Flybe on twitter loads of tweets about this come up.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:54 am

It might help if they were more consistent with enforcing the rules. It's understandable some might try it on if they've got away with it before as it's human nature, though two wrongs don't make a right.

Whatever the merits of the £50 charge, it might help with passenger goodwill if it wasn't as high because high charges for infringements is one of the many things that got peoples backs up with Ryanair years ago.
 
mrbonfire
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:59 pm

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:47 pm

leghorn wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
As for baggage charges - if people can’t stick to the clearly advised T&Cs at booking and check-in, they can expect a penalty - also advised at the time of booking & check-in.

The charge of 50 pounds sterling is entirely disproportionate to the nature of the transgression(1cm larger than the frame or the straps of the bag not resting flush within the sizing frame and spilling out over the side) or the actual cost of the remedy(putting it in the hold) and it reeks to high heaven of sharp practice.
You are blaming the many victims of a mean and nasty policy.

I'm someone who has no problems with Low Cost Carriers' tight enforcement of their cabin baggage policies but this is an entirely different beast and FlyBE deserve all the bad reputation that this policy garners for them. Shame on them.


Disagree. I came off fly be flight today in the front exit row seat. Surprise, surprise, massive Wheely suitcases that were far too big. Bag had to be put down the back and so I'm actually last off the plane.

50quid isn't that much especially in relation to what you'd pay if you put it in the hold.

But yes. Another viable carrier down the swanny thanks to nonsensical I'll thought out decisions.
 
leghorn
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:55 pm

They're charing LCC fares so 50 sterling is a lot to the passengers who are getting caught.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 338
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Flybe update

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:10 pm

mrbonfire wrote:
Disagree. I came off fly be flight today in the front exit row seat. Surprise, surprise, massive Wheely suitcases that were far too big. Bag had to be put down the back and so I'm actually last off the plane.

50quid isn't that much especially in relation to what you'd pay if you put it in the hold.


But yes. Another viable carrier down the swanny thanks to nonsensical I'll thought out decisions.


https://www.flybe.com/terms/tariff/

It's £24 to put a bag in the Hold if Booked in advance, £40 Airport Fee.
So how does your statement that the £50 Gate Fee isn't that much in relation to what you'd pay to put it in the hold work, given that it's over twice the cost?
 
mrbonfire
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 8:59 pm

Re: Flybe update

Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:31 am

Bhoy wrote:
mrbonfire wrote:
Disagree. I came off fly be flight today in the front exit row seat. Surprise, surprise, massive Wheely suitcases that were far too big. Bag had to be put down the back and so I'm actually last off the plane.

50quid isn't that much especially in relation to what you'd pay if you put it in the hold.


But yes. Another viable carrier down the swanny thanks to nonsensical I'll thought out decisions.


https://www.flybe.com/terms/tariff/

It's £24 to put a bag in the Hold if Booked in advance, £40 Airport Fee.
So how does your statement that the £50 Gate Fee isn't that much in relation to what you'd pay to put it in the hold work, given that it's over twice the cost?


Err 50 is 10 away from 40? Are you a contraversialist? Do you like looking for trouble? Or are you like most Flybe pax and have problems with basic literacy and maths?

Just proves my point. If you get to the airport with a big bag, you're going to say, "well, I may as well chance it."
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Flybe update

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:48 am

leghorn wrote:
They're charing LCC fares so 50 sterling is a lot to the passengers who are getting caught.


Im guessing that you have never flown with flyBe? The fares are usually far from low-cost as their main competition is the UK rail network not Ryanair, in most cases and fares are pegged at that level. flyBe claims ~45% of their passengers are business travel, which is very high by European standards, keep in mind that LHR has the highest percentage of business travel in the UK - 33% of passengers are Business travellers. I sense that you think all passengers who fly LCC's, or with flyBe are poor/uneducated/lower social classes - this perception is far from reality.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: Flybe update

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:53 am

BrianDromey wrote:
leghorn wrote:
They're charing LCC fares so 50 sterling is a lot to the passengers who are getting caught.


Im guessing that you have never flown with flyBe? The fares are usually far from low-cost as their main competition is the UK rail network not Ryanair, in most cases and fares are pegged at that level. flyBe claims ~45% of their passengers are business travel, which is very high by European standards, keep in mind that LHR has the highest percentage of business travel in the UK - 33% of passengers are Business travellers. I sense that you think all passengers who fly LCC's, or with flyBe are poor/uneducated/lower social classes - this perception is far from reality.


I believe LCY has the most business travellers in the UK. This article from 2014 states that 63% of inbound passengers and 61% of outbound passengers were travelling for business: http://www.travel-news.co.uk/9882/2014/ ... y-airport/

I recall seeing that last year it had dropped to just under 50%. This press release says half of all passengers are leisure so it's roughly 50-50. https://www.londoncityairport.com/media ... 18-to-4-8m
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Flybe update

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:07 am

seansasLCY wrote:
I believe LCY has the most business travellers in the UK. This article from 2014 states that 63% of inbound passengers and 61% of outbound passengers were travelling for business: http://www.travel-news.co.uk/9882/2014/ ... y-airport/


I had forgotten LCY - apologies, clearly the leader by a clear margin. My point was more that there is a perception that everyone on an LCC is a leisure traveller, wearing shorts, swigging beer and wine on their annual trip to Benidorm. Even Ryanair reports 25% of their passengers are business travellers. I would guess that business travellers are, strangely, more likely to be unaware of flyBe's policies as they will probably have booked via a corporate portal, rather than directly with the airline themselves.
 
leghorn
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Flybe update

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:36 am

BrianDromey wrote:
leghorn wrote:
They're charing LCC fares so 50 sterling is a lot to the passengers who are getting caught.


Im guessing that you have never flown with flyBe? The fares are usually far from low-cost as their main competition is the UK rail network not Ryanair, in most cases and fares are pegged at that level. flyBe claims ~45% of their passengers are business travel, which is very high by European standards, keep in mind that LHR has the highest percentage of business travel in the UK - 33% of passengers are Business travellers. I sense that you think all passengers who fly LCC's, or with flyBe are poor/uneducated/lower social classes - this perception is far from reality.

Look at the "today's featured flights" section on the front page of their website and tell me that they are not advertising LCC fares(irrespective of the reality of whether they are widely available or just teaser rates which few parsimonious flyers can avail of).
 
DobboDobbo
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:02 am

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:18 pm

 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:29 am

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:12 pm

So they are basically just dropping those routes
 
Virtual737
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:16 pm

Aisak wrote:
3AWM wrote:
Several Regionals around Europe have been using a more creative solution for years. I think AF regional even had a brand for it: Valet Luggage. You just attach an info tag with a simple cord to the carry on and hand it over to the handling staff at the ramp. All this luggage is delivered back at the ramp at destination as you walk down the stairs so you can skip the typical long waiting of checked items.



They do have this but not all their staff know about it. I flew 3 segments with FlyBe the back end of June. On the 2 FlyBe direct bookings, the baggage Nazis were hard at work losing customers at Southampton but far more lenient in Manchester. A return from Aberdeen was codeshared with Qatar and they Valet tagged my case (which I was expecting to have to check in). I had to explain to the ramp agent how the valet tagging worked (ie she was going to give it to the baggage handlers). On landing, apparently you're supposed to be asked to deplane last if you have valet baggage, but I wasn't and my bag appeared pretty fast. A few stares as to why I was standing to the side of the stairs rather than entering the terminal..

Either way, and with the very inconsistent application of the £40 (it was £40 for everyone at Southampton... definitely not £50), FlyBe would be my last choice of airline going forward. Bags that fitted into the sizer in Southampton with just a hint of a wheel sticking out were charged the £40. In Manchester, a bag that fit into the sizer (ie it dropped right to the bottom) but stood proud by at least 6 inches at the top was deemed fine.

The woman infront of me in Southampton said to the check-in staff it was a wheel that did not fit in... 1 inch. The agent said "well we have 58 passengers so if we let them all through that would be 58 inches"

On 2 out of the 3 segments there was plenty of underseat space left.

Whether it's in the Ts & Cs or not, the way it is implemented is.. far from friendly. The offenders were treated literally as... offenders. You'd get let off at least once in a British court for far worse offences than being a customer.
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:38 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
They do have this but not all their staff know about it.


What doesn't help is that some airports have completely refused to implement the valet service Flybe offers, one of them being a Flybe base with a lot of connecting traffic. That combined with the different sizers in use doesn't help with the consistency issues.

The valet service only works for cabin bags if they are either the right size, or a little bigger but the passenger has a connecting flight with a partner airline. Simply gate checking your kitchen sink at the aircraft steps on a 1 sector booking should not be allowed without penalty.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:48 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
Simply gate checking your kitchen sink at the aircraft steps on a 1 sector booking should not be allowed without penalty.


Oh I totally agree. Most passengers (me included actually) wouldn't guess just how small those overhead bins are. I've flown Q400s plenty of times before but can't remember the same issues.

The other inconsistency was that only wheeler type bags were checked on any of my 3 segments. On the ABZ>MAN segment the flight was full and this rather portly chap entered the cabin with a HUGE yellow holdall type bag. It had 0 chance of fitting in the overheads and only just fit under the seat infront also taking up ALL his legroom and half of his unfortunate neighbours.

How they can stop a wheeler bag with a centimeter or 2 protruding out the top but allow a guy carrying half a horse in a holdall is beyond me.
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1696
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:59 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
So they are basically just dropping those routes


I don't think they have to actually drop those routes from BHX, just give up an appropriate number of slots:

"To allay the EU Commission’s concerns, Connect Airways committed to the release of five daily slot pairs at Amsterdam Schiphol airport and three daily slot pairs at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport."

Presumably only someone committing to fly to BHX can take up those slots.
Flown in: A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..55 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:24 pm

Not really sure what difference that makes as AF & KLM can just upguage service on their existing flights and still have a monoply.

Presumably the CDG and AMS slots can just be used by AF & KLM to fly somewhere else. BHX isn't slot constrained any new operator could have a go.
 
3AWM
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Flybe update

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:31 pm

Effectively confirms that VS AF/KLM buyin will get approval otherwise why woudl they rule that.

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