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NeBaNi
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Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:13 pm

Hi all,

I wanted to discuss how carriers without the 737NG in their fleets are coping with the MAX grounding. From a cursory Wikipedia search, I found two such airlines: Air Canada (AC) and Icelandair (FI). A couple of points to spark discussion:
  • The fact the both these carriers don't have a 737NG fleet means that they also have pilots who cannot currently fly. From what I understand, carriers that operate the NG and the MAX can just roster pilots on the NG due to the common type certificate, but AC and FI cannot move their MAX pilots to other fleets without re-training them and making them lose their MAX certifications. What do these pilots do on a daily basis?
  • Operationally, these two carriers also have a harder time inducting short-term leases into their fleets. I assume the A320-family (AC) and 757 (FI) pilot rosters don't have any slack to lease additional examples of such aircraft to cover the loss of MAX capacity? In the case of AC, a lot of the AC A320-family aircraft have been sent to Rouge, and I assume there is no slack in the Rouge fleet wither? Conversely, if the MAX grounding is prolonged, could these carriers lease 737NGs and have their MAX pilots fly them? I understand wet-leases may be non-starters due to pilot union contracts and such. Could an exception be made with the unions on board to add temporary capacity this way?

As a point of note, AC has 24 737-MAX8 delivered, which is 25% of its total narrowbody fleet, not counting the E-Jets. The 737-MAX8s outnumber the A319 (13+3 for charters) and the A321 (15) fleets at AC. At FI, the 4 MAX8s and 1 MAX9 represent about 15% of the total narrowbody fleet. The numbers are from Wikipedia, so they may not me the most up to date, but they provide an insight into the situation nevertheless.

Mods, I request you, please, to not delete this thread or merge it with the super-long MAX grounding main thread. I believe this topic has enough merit for self-sustained discussion, primarily for the following reasons:
  • I'm not interested in discussing why the MAX was grounded, who is to blame for the accidents, whether the grounding was a good idea and so on. I want to discuss specifically how carriers without NGs are coping with the MAX groundings.
  • The MAX grounding thread is long and discusses a lot of aspects, and I fear something like this would get drowned out quickly in the heated ongoing discussions in that thread.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:22 pm

In the case of FI, your understanding is correct. Most of their MAX pilot rosters are on a loooong spring break, except for those that still had an active 757 type rating AFAIK. They've leased 2 767s from EuroAtlantic and an additional 757 from Privilege Style to save what can be saved, but they've still had to cancel quite a few flights in the next couple of months. The new additional departure/arrival bank has been especially badly hit as most of those flights were set to be operated by the MAX. If the MAX does get back in the air this summer, the leased aircraft will be used instead for growth due to the opening WOW has left. Quite sad that the MAX grounding means FI couldn't capitalise on that opportunity right away.

Air Canada has changed its KEF flight from a mainline MAX to a Rouge A319 for this summer due to the grounding, I don't know what other moves they've made.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
yulexpansion
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:24 pm

AC has used Rouge to backfill some 7M8 capacity. You can see that certain routes such as YYZ-YEG have Rouge operating certain frequencies. Other Caribbean routes normally operated by 7M8 are flown by Rouge (YUL-FDF/PTP) with whatever spare aircraft is available. Furthermore, YUL-CUN is operated by TS332 until the end of April. For the summer, transatlantic 7M8 flights have been delayed (notable YUL-BOD, YYZ-SNN, YHZ/YYT-LHR), while YYZ/YUL-KEF will be operated by Rouge A319.

There are some upgauges like YUL-LAX being operated by 1 A333 instead on 2 7M8 and so on.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:32 pm

I assume Icelandair is training some of their 737MAX pilots, that are sitting around, on the 757 and 767 as they will have need for extra pilots there, both for more extensive use and the leased extra frames.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:39 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
From what I understand, carriers that operate the NG and the MAX can just roster pilots on the NG due to the common type certificate, but AC and FI cannot move their MAX pilots to other fleets without re-training them and making them lose their MAX certifications.


Just a point of clarification here - you don't lose a type rating when you switch to another aircraft. The pilots will lose *currency* if they don't fly that aircraft within a certain amount of time, but you can maintain many type ratings. Of course, as a matter of practicality, airlines do not switch pilot pools even if they could somehow maintain currency in multiple types - they may be restricted from doing so by other regulations as well.

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NeBaNi
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:55 pm

dennypayne wrote:
Just a point of clarification here - you don't lose a type rating when you switch to another aircraft. The pilots will lose *currency* if they don't fly that aircraft within a certain amount of time, but you can maintain many type ratings. Of course, as a matter of practicality, airlines do not switch pilot pools even if they could somehow maintain currency in multiple types - they may be restricted from doing so by other regulations as well.

Thanks for the clarification! I'm just an AvGeek, so I don't know the nuances of airline operations, but happy to be educated :)

SRQKEF wrote:
In the case of FI, your understanding is correct. Most of their MAX pilot rosters are on a loooong spring break, except for those that still had an active 757 type rating AFAIK. They've leased 2 767s from EuroAtlantic and an additional 757 from Privilege Style to save what can be saved, but they've still had to cancel quite a few flights in the next couple of months. The new additional departure/arrival bank has been especially badly hit as most of those flights were set to be operated by the MAX. If the MAX does get back in the air this summer, the leased aircraft will be used instead for growth due to the opening WOW has left. Quite sad that the MAX grounding means FI couldn't capitalise on that opportunity right away.

Air Canada has changed its KEF flight from a mainline MAX to a Rouge A319 for this summer due to the grounding, I don't know what other moves they've made.

So your reply, along with dennypayne's clarification above, means that FI still has some pilots that have an active/current type rating on the 757/767 and as such, are able to fly those? That also raises two interesting questions for me:
(1) Do the 757 pilots coming from the MAX need to re-train (in the sense of gain currency) on the MAX after the grounding is lifted?
(2) Icelandair pilot union was okay with adding capacity through leasing to cover the loss of MAX flights? Who flies these leased aircraft? FI pilots or EuroAtlantic/ Privilege Style pilots?

Also, I did think about the whole Icelandair / Wow scenario, but in a slightly different way. If the Icelandair/ Wow air deal had gone through, the combined entity would be sitting in a comfortable spot right now, with the right-sizing of oversaturated markets and the loss of MAX capacity balancing the fleet additions from Wow.
 
LH707330
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:25 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
Just a point of clarification here - you don't lose a type rating when you switch to another aircraft. The pilots will lose *currency* if they don't fly that aircraft within a certain amount of time, but you can maintain many type ratings. Of course, as a matter of practicality, airlines do not switch pilot pools even if they could somehow maintain currency in multiple types - they may be restricted from doing so by other regulations as well.

Thanks for the clarification! I'm just an AvGeek, so I don't know the nuances of airline operations, but happy to be educated :)

SRQKEF wrote:
In the case of FI, your understanding is correct. Most of their MAX pilot rosters are on a loooong spring break, except for those that still had an active 757 type rating AFAIK. They've leased 2 767s from EuroAtlantic and an additional 757 from Privilege Style to save what can be saved, but they've still had to cancel quite a few flights in the next couple of months. The new additional departure/arrival bank has been especially badly hit as most of those flights were set to be operated by the MAX. If the MAX does get back in the air this summer, the leased aircraft will be used instead for growth due to the opening WOW has left. Quite sad that the MAX grounding means FI couldn't capitalise on that opportunity right away.

Air Canada has changed its KEF flight from a mainline MAX to a Rouge A319 for this summer due to the grounding, I don't know what other moves they've made.

So your reply, along with dennypayne's clarification above, means that FI still has some pilots that have an active/current type rating on the 757/767 and as such, are able to fly those? That also raises two interesting questions for me:
(1) Do the 757 pilots coming from the MAX need to re-train (in the sense of gain currency) on the MAX after the grounding is lifted?
(2) Icelandair pilot union was okay with adding capacity through leasing to cover the loss of MAX flights? Who flies these leased aircraft? FI pilots or EuroAtlantic/ Privilege Style pilots?

Also, I did think about the whole Icelandair / Wow scenario, but in a slightly different way. If the Icelandair/ Wow air deal had gone through, the combined entity would be sitting in a comfortable spot right now, with the right-sizing of oversaturated markets and the loss of MAX capacity balancing the fleet additions from Wow.



Not sure about FI's rules, but basically there are a couple different things needed for currency:

1. X number of landings in the preceding XX time frame (3 day and 3 night in last 90 days where I fly)
2. Y number of emergency/recurrency training sessions in the sim (typically 6 months)

For most airlines, maintaining currency across different types is too expensive, hence the rostering we see. For airlines like FI and AC, they could get some A320 or 757 rated MAX pilots back on their old birds, possibly with some schedule tetris in the sim, and then run extra frequencies by punting non-essential MX. Most airlines already save MX for the winter so they get better summer utilization, so it's unclear how much they can wring out of that.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:08 pm

Prior to the MAX grounding, YYZ-LGA was a mix of A320/321s. Now it is almost all E190. I assume the Airbuses were pulled to replace the aircraft that suppose to replace them
 
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spinkid
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:02 am

Yes. This topic needs it own thread. The larger thread is way too unmanageable at this point. I can cover Norwegian on the Atlantic Side of their Max Operations. It has settled into the following.

From Enrilia' weekly OAG update, this is where things are at now

D8 BGO-SWF JUL 0.3>0[0.3]
D8 DUB-PVD JUL 1.0>0.6[0.7]
D8 DUB-SWF JUL 1.4>1.0[2]
D8 ORK-PVD JUL 0.5>0.0[0.4]
D8 PVD-SNN JUL 0.5>0[0.6]
D8 SNN-SWF JUL 0.7>0.0[0.4]

YHM-DUB is operating 4 weekly on a 737-800.

They were forced to end their Edinburgh service earlier than scheduled in March, and for a short while subbed a Dreamliner on the DUB-SWF route.

Norwegian Air International in last week’s schedule update adjusted operational aircraft for Dublin – Newburgh/Stewart route, from 01APR19 to 30JUN19. During this period, leased Airbus A330-300 aircraft from Evelop Airlines will operate this route on daily basis.

D81763 DUB1430 – 1650SWF 333 D
D81762 SWF2055 – 0815+1DUB 333 7
D81762 SWF2100 – 0820+1DUB 333 x7


WOW Air's resurrection plan supposedly has them wet leasing for a "major European Carrier". I could see that being Norwegian.
 
matt
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:19 am

Thank you for starting this thread! We absolutely need it as the main thread on the grounding of the MAX has gotten out of control, in my opinion.

Regarding AC, I am wondering what will happen beyond July 1. As you know, AC has removed the MAX8 from its schedules until July 1, but I am thinking the grounding may last longer than anticipated. Peak summer season for AC starts in late June or early July, and currently all the widebodies are accounted for (763, 333, 788, 789, 77L and 77W). There is very little slack in the schedule (even the 2 ex-TP/SQ 333s are accounted for). The same thing goes for widebody utilisation at Rouge (763). So the widebodies will be of no help at that point. My questions are:

- What is AC’s contingency plan for narrow-body, North American operations this summer if the MAX8 is not reintroduced into the fleet on July 1? I had heard that they would maybe lease additional A321s from WOW. I know that they have extended some leases on A320s and delayed the retirement of some E90s to counter the effects of the MAX8’s withdrawal.

- What are AC’s MAX8 pilots doing at the moment? I imagine some (most?) of them were qualified on other types such as the E90 or 319/320/321 and can thus keep flying to some extent?

Any input?
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:24 pm

matt wrote:

- What are AC’s MAX8 pilots doing at the moment? I imagine some (most?) of them were qualified on other types such as the E90 or 319/320/321 and can thus keep flying to some extent?

Any input?


This is what Longhauler wrote about the MAX pilots:

I know that where I fly, the MAX pilots are all sitting at home being paid, so the company has had them doing simulator exercises. As one would expect, "Runaway Stab Trim" and "Unreliable Airspeed" were practised. Also, although the Max simulators could not replicate the MCAS issues, it could be "manually" demonstrated by moving the stab trim at intervals.

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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:50 pm

Is it possible for them to just snatch 9W NG immediately to cover the max? The lessor is probably happy to have paying customers for a month or two rather than just having their assets sitting and not making money.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:57 pm

trent768 wrote:
Is it possible for them to just snatch 9W NG immediately to cover the max? The lessor is probably happy to have paying customers for a month or two rather than just having their assets sitting and not making money.


A number of those frames are remaining in India with SG. But in what shape are those not already claimed? I could see FI wanting the two B739(ER)s for capacity purposes if they can fly.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:38 pm

trent768 wrote:
Is it possible for them to just snatch 9W NG immediately to cover the max? The lessor is probably happy to have paying customers for a month or two rather than just having their assets sitting and not making money.

Interesting question. Can AC and FI ground ops handle NG?
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:11 pm

LDRA wrote:
trent768 wrote:
Is it possible for them to just snatch 9W NG immediately to cover the max? The lessor is probably happy to have paying customers for a month or two rather than just having their assets sitting and not making money.

Interesting question. Can AC and FI ground ops handle NG?


Ground Ops would never be an issue. It’s getting them registered in their respective country and getting them inducted onto the AOC etc.
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:55 pm

*bump*
It appears AC has removed the MAX from its flight schedules till August, and here's a list of the workarounds to make up for it:
  • ... extending leases for three Airbus A320 and three Embraer 190 aircraft which were scheduled to exit the fleet to provide more capacity
  • ... accelerating the addition of six Airbus A321 aircraft from Wow Air into its fleet
  • ... handing over flying YUL-FRA to Star Alliance partner Lufthansa (not sure what aircraft LH will use)
  • ... wet-leasing a Qatar Airways Airbus A330-200 on daily flights between Montreal and Barcelona and one Airbus A330-200 daily flight between Montreal and Paris.
  • ... wet-leasing an Omni International Boeing 767-200ER aircraft between Vancouver and Honolulu and Maui
  • ... delaying some route launches, including the Vancouver to Boston route until 20 June
  • ... suspending some routes, including flights from Halifax and St. John's to London temporarily to accommodate other flights
Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/air-canada-removes-737-max-until-august-457705/

That is quite some work for the scheduling people at AC. I guess it also shows that in circumstances like this, pilot and crew contracts do allow wet leases. I'm sure the Airbus and Embraer pilots are happy to pick up some extra flying (overtime?), but I can't imagine there is much slack in the pilot pool f the grounding stretches longer?

On a tangential note, it also shows surplus A330 capacity at QR. Previously, BA used QR A330s on certain routes, and now AC is using one too.
 
yulexpansion
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:58 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
*bump*
It appears AC has removed the MAX from its flight schedules till August, and here's a list of the workarounds to make up for it:
  • ... extending leases for three Airbus A320 and three Embraer 190 aircraft which were scheduled to exit the fleet to provide more capacity
  • ... accelerating the addition of six Airbus A321 aircraft from Wow Air into its fleet
  • ... handing over flying YUL-FRA to Star Alliance partner Lufthansa (not sure what aircraft LH will use)
  • ... wet-leasing a Qatar Airways Airbus A330-200 on daily flights between Montreal and Barcelona and one Airbus A330-200 daily flight between Montreal and Paris.
  • ... wet-leasing an Omni International Boeing 767-200ER aircraft between Vancouver and Honolulu and Maui
  • ... delaying some route launches, including the Vancouver to Boston route until 20 June
  • ... suspending some routes, including flights from Halifax and St. John's to London temporarily to accommodate other flights
Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/air-canada-removes-737-max-until-august-457705/

That is quite some work for the scheduling people at AC. I guess it also shows that in circumstances like this, pilot and crew contracts do allow wet leases. I'm sure the Airbus and Embraer pilots are happy to pick up some extra flying (overtime?), but I can't imagine there is much slack in the pilot pool f the grounding stretches longer?

On a tangential note, it also shows surplus A330 capacity at QR. Previously, BA used QR A330s on certain routes, and now AC is using one too.


AC is actually using 2 QR 332s. QR is also wet leasing a 77W to RAM. I would assume there's quite some spare capacity given the ongoing blockade and shortage of reasonable destinations they can deploy their assets to.
 
fjhc
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:54 pm

Presuming that there will be a big cheque from Boeing to help pay for all of this wet leasing?
 
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longhauler
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:28 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
I guess it also shows that in circumstances like this, pilot and crew contracts do allow wet leases. I'm sure the Airbus and Embraer pilots are happy to pick up some extra flying (overtime?), but I can't imagine there is much slack in the pilot pool f the grounding stretches longer?


The only employee group which would have had restrictions on wet leasing are the pilots. But, it appears both sides are working together. Technically, in the pilot contract is a clause that Air Canada could have chosen to not pay any 737 pilots while the fleet is grounded. Air Canada has chosen not to use this clause. The 737 pilots are being paid, the wet-leases are allowed and all other pilots are pulling together to pick up the slack.

Fortunately, (or sadly depending on how you look at it), Canada has the most pathetic pilot restrictions on duty limitations in the world. The rest of the pilots have a lot of room to fly, should they choose. And a lot are choosing to fly. But ... it's not cheap, as monthly hour triggers are met, some pilots can hit double and triple pay!

A buddy of mine, an A320 Captain showed me his month pay forecast for April. He was already at $42,000 and was thinking about picking up another YYZ-YVR-YYZ. His pay for that trip would be around $6,000.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:22 pm

longhauler wrote:
The only employee group which would have had restrictions on wet leasing are the pilots. But, it appears both sides are working together. Technically, in the pilot contract is a clause that Air Canada could have chosen to not pay any 737 pilots while the fleet is grounded. Air Canada has chosen not to use this clause. The 737 pilots are being paid, the wet-leases are allowed and all other pilots are pulling together to pick up the slack.

Fortunately, (or sadly depending on how you look at it), Canada has the most pathetic pilot restrictions on duty limitations in the world. The rest of the pilots have a lot of room to fly, should they choose. And a lot are choosing to fly. But ... it's not cheap, as monthly hour triggers are met, some pilots can hit double and triple pay!

A buddy of mine, an A320 Captain showed me his month pay forecast for April. He was already at $42,000 and was thinking about picking up another YYZ-YVR-YYZ. His pay for that trip would be around $6,000.

Thanks for this insight! It seems like both AC (the company) and its crew are reasonable employees. Pilots realize this is an extraordinary circumstance and allow the company to wet-lease to keep operations as disruption-free as they can, and the company chooses not to use clause that doesn't pay pilots when their fleet is grounded for reasons beyond their control. The cynic in me suspects the origin or the clause was probably to penalize pilots if the fleet was grounded due to, say extended strikes?

The pilot restrictions are interesting. While this is a win-win for both pilots and AC at this point (well, other than having to pay 2-3x the usual wage for the extra hours), at what point does this practice become unsustainable? Pilot restrictions exist for a reason, which I assume is health and safety related? To use a college example: just because I can stay awake for 48 hours nonstop by downing 5-hour Energy shots doesn't mean it's healthy for me to do so. Also interesting is, what part of this increased expense, if any, does Boeing cover? All this is a lot more nuanced, and I'd be amazed if contracts covered circumstances to this level of detail.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:44 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
The cynic in me suspects the origin or the clause was probably to penalize pilots if the fleet was grounded due to, say extended strikes?

If the pilots were on strike, they wouldn't be paid any way. Other employee groups are less disruptive on the operation. Regardless, I find strikes don't normally last too long anyway.

The clause is more of a force majeure clause. Things beyond the airline's control. The last two opportunities Air Canada has had to use this clause, namely the Icelandic Volcano and September 11, they have chosen not to.

NeBaNi wrote:
The pilot restrictions are interesting. While this is a win-win for both pilots and AC at this point (well, other than having to pay 2-3x the usual wage for the extra hours), at what point does this practice become unsustainable? Pilot restrictions exist for a reason, which I assume is health and safety related? To use a college example: just because I can stay awake for 48 hours nonstop by downing 5-hour Energy shots doesn't mean it's healthy for me to do so. Also interesting is, what part of this increased expense, if any, does Boeing cover? All this is a lot more nuanced, and I'd be amazed if contracts covered circumstances to this level of detail.

As loose as Canadian Air Regs are with regard to duty rules, there are limitations. Eventually, pilots would run out of time. As far as fatigue goes, Air Canada's rules are cut and dry. Don't fly when tired. Period. I know of no one that would.

Air Canada are presently hiring pilots at the maximum the Training Centre can handle. Most would have been going to the 737, (as a dozen more were supposed to be delivered this summer/autumn). I would guess they are headed for the A320 or Rouge A319 instead. (They call it Rouge A319, history. Actually they have all of the A320 family).

I don't know how much of this Boeing will cover. They are probably still working off credits for their last disaster ... the 3 year delay on the 787.

I have always been an Airbus fan. Personally I hope deals are being worked in the background where Air Canada could say, "Hey Boeing, come pick up your trash, we're going with A320s after all". But ... they didn't ask me, and my scenario is very unlikely! ;)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
B737Captain1980
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:50 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
Hi all,

I wanted to discuss how carriers without the 737NG in their fleets are coping with the MAX grounding. From a cursory Wikipedia search, I found two such airlines: Air Canada (AC) and Icelandair (FI). A couple of points to spark discussion:
  • The fact the both these carriers don't have a 737NG fleet means that they also have pilots who cannot currently fly. From what I understand, carriers that operate the NG and the MAX can just roster pilots on the NG due to the common type certificate, but AC and FI cannot move their MAX pilots to other fleets without re-training them and making them lose their MAX certifications. What do these pilots do on a daily basis?.


We sit back, relax, and enjoy some paid time off :)
 
beechnut
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:41 am

longhauler wrote:
I have always been an Airbus fan. Personally I hope deals are being worked in the background where Air Canada could say, "Hey Boeing, come pick up your trash, we're going with A320s after all". But ... they didn't ask me, and my scenario is very unlikely! ;)


Like you I doubt it would happen. However, I suspect what *may* happen is that AC quietly defers the 737 MAX 9 indefinitely and orders A321NEO, perhaps LRs, instead. They would gain flexibility, and it seems AC is really fond of the A321, they keep picking up more in spite of the pending MAX 9 orders; the ex-WOW birds are still quite fresh and they bought 5 new-builds for Rouge. They seem to be quietly building a substantial fleet of 321s, and some NEO/LRs to round out the fleet would make a lot of sense, and kill the MAX 9's prospects at AC.

Unless Boeing makes AC a killer deal. The killer deal I'd rather see though, is they allow AC to drop the MAX 9 order without penalty and make them an offer then can't refuse on exercising some 787-9 options. Even though, from a passenger POV, I'd rather see some more A330s, perhaps NEOs. Way more comfortable bird at least in 2-4-2 config.

Beech
 
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NeBaNi
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:32 pm

longhauler wrote:
NeBaNi wrote:
The cynic in me suspects the origin or the clause was probably to penalize pilots if the fleet was grounded due to, say extended strikes?

If the pilots were on strike, they wouldn't be paid any way. Other employee groups are less disruptive on the operation. Regardless, I find strikes don't normally last too long anyway.

The clause is more of a force majeure clause. Things beyond the airline's control. The last two opportunities Air Canada has had to use this clause, namely the Icelandic Volcano and September 11, they have chosen not to.

Thanks for your response! That says a lot about the type of employer AC is. Classy :bigthumbsup:

beechnut wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I have always been an Airbus fan. Personally I hope deals are being worked in the background where Air Canada could say, "Hey Boeing, come pick up your trash, we're going with A320s after all". But ... they didn't ask me, and my scenario is very unlikely! ;)


Like you I doubt it would happen. However, I suspect what *may* happen is that AC quietly defers the 737 MAX 9 indefinitely and orders A321NEO, perhaps LRs, instead. They would gain flexibility, and it seems AC is really fond of the A321, they keep picking up more in spite of the pending MAX 9 orders; the ex-WOW birds are still quite fresh and they bought 5 new-builds for Rouge. They seem to be quietly building a substantial fleet of 321s, and some NEO/LRs to round out the fleet would make a lot of sense, and kill the MAX 9's prospects at AC.

Unless Boeing makes AC a killer deal. The killer deal I'd rather see though, is they allow AC to drop the MAX 9 order without penalty and make them an offer then can't refuse on exercising some 787-9 options. Even though, from a passenger POV, I'd rather see some more A330s, perhaps NEOs. Way more comfortable bird at least in 2-4-2 config.
Beech

I also doubt AC would go back to Airbus again so soon after switching to Boeing for the narrowbody fleet. But while I fantasize, I could see a split 737-8 / A321neo, A321(X)LR fleet making sense, similar to what AA is doing -- playing to the strengths of both the narrowbody offerings from both manufacturers. The 737-8 is probably the better transatlantic platform as a route-starter then the A320neo family offerings -- A320neo (smaller, hurting CASM and not enough range) and A321neo (larger, more risk to be filling more seats). The A321neo could then offer better capacity than the Boeing counterparts, being larger than both the 737-9 and -10. I can see why both WestJet and AC both went for the 737-8 as thin transatlantic plane though, especially with the Canadian geography.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:20 pm

*bump*
This kinda got lost in the main MAX grounding thread, but:
it appears Icelandair has now fired its 737MAX pilots. So much for paid time off :eek:
https://simpleflying.com/icelandair-fires-its-boeing-737-max-pilots/

From the article:
Of the number of pilots let go, 21 included newcomers to the airline who had just begun working on the 737 MAX before it became grounded. The other 24 pilots to lose their jobs had been with the airline since last autumn, flying the ill-fated Boeing aircraft.


And in terms of how FI is making up for lost MAX capacity:
Having now made changes to its summer schedule to not include the 737 MAX, the Nordic carrier has announced that it has agreed to wet-lease one B757-200 from an unspecified carrier. The leased aircraft will be used during the summer season, between now and September.

This latest aircraft comes on the heels of two B767-300ERs Icelandair already leased from Portugal’s euroAtlantic Airways.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:51 pm

longhauler wrote:
I have always been an Airbus fan. Personally I hope deals are being worked in the background where Air Canada could say, "Hey Boeing, come pick up your trash, we're going with A320s after all". But ... they didn't ask me, and my scenario is very unlikely! ;)


Could not agree more. AC is the most affected airline per-capita with regards to narrow-body operations. They would have had about 32 MAX's by now for the peak-summer travel period but now have to manage with a combo of Rouge, Omni, Qatar wet-leases, retirement delays, postponed new-routes and more. That's a lot to bear and I really hope Boeing is rolling out the red-carpet for AC. Those killer deals on the MAX certainly don't look sweet now.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:35 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I have always been an Airbus fan. Personally I hope deals are being worked in the background where Air Canada could say, "Hey Boeing, come pick up your trash, we're going with A320s after all". But ... they didn't ask me, and my scenario is very unlikely! ;)


Could not agree more. AC is the most affected airline per-capita with regards to narrow-body operations. They would have had about 32 MAX's by now for the peak-summer travel period but now have to manage with a combo of Rouge, Omni, Qatar wet-leases, retirement delays, postponed new-routes and more. That's a lot to bear and I really hope Boeing is rolling out the red-carpet for AC. Those killer deals on the MAX certainly don't look sweet now.


...not to mention some temporarily cancelled long-standing routes.

Red carpet or not, I really hope AC order the 321XLR. I wonder if AC's learning that given their size, the 32x and 7Mx can co-exist? UA, DL and AA have all learned that.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:20 pm

I assume that the Qatar A330's will be in Qatar livery and have Qatar interior since they are wet lease?
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:50 pm

Long term (e.g., one year+) wet-leased frames are often repainted, but I've not heard of an interior refurb (i.e., reconfiguration, as opposed to cosmetic refresh) on a wet-lease.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:07 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I have always been an Airbus fan. Personally I hope deals are being worked in the background where Air Canada could say, "Hey Boeing, come pick up your trash, we're going with A320s after all". But ... they didn't ask me, and my scenario is very unlikely! ;)


Could not agree more. AC is the most affected airline per-capita with regards to narrow-body operations. They would have had about 32 MAX's by now for the peak-summer travel period but now have to manage with a combo of Rouge, Omni, Qatar wet-leases, retirement delays, postponed new-routes and more. That's a lot to bear and I really hope Boeing is rolling out the red-carpet for AC. Those killer deals on the MAX certainly don't look sweet now.


...not to mention some temporarily cancelled long-standing routes.

Red carpet or not, I really hope AC order the 321XLR. I wonder if AC's learning that given their size, the 32x and 7Mx can co-exist? UA, DL and AA have all learned that.


I thought AC was keeping their A321s for the foreseeable future. They're reasonably young aircraft with lots of life left in them.

Since Rouge uses Airbus A320-type aircraft, they have the in-house maintenance and pilots to fly them (same pilot group IIRC).

I think the 737 MAX issues are probably causing many one-type airlines to re-evaluate their stance. There's a point where the efficiency of one aircraft type is outweighed by the liability of only having one aircraft type.

If these events had happened a few years later, several airlines would be in a real jam now. Losing a small percentage of capacity is bad, but >50% might be fatal, even in the short-term.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:05 pm

I'm reviving this thread as I'm curious to see what airlines such as Air Canada are doing with their MAX8 pilots given that the grounding will most likely last a while. I know that AC pilots are still being paid, but have some of them returned to other types for which they were rated?

On a more operational side, Air Canada will most likely have to keep leasing planes from other airlines in the fall, although come October and November, the schedule will not be as busy.

M.
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:34 pm

matt wrote:
I'm reviving this thread as I'm curious to see what airlines such as Air Canada are doing with their MAX8 pilots given that the grounding will most likely last a while. I know that AC pilots are still being paid, but have some of them returned to other types for which they were rated?

On a more operational side, Air Canada will most likely have to keep leasing planes from other airlines in the fall, although come October and November, the schedule will not be as busy.

M.


Speaking for FI, around 50 pilots hired last year to join the MAX fleet have been temporarily suspended until the situation clears and are free to look for a job elsewhere. Some other MAX pilots that recently transferred from the 757/767 fleet group just transferred back to fill in there.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:42 pm

matt wrote:
I know that AC pilots are still being paid, but have some of them returned to other types for which they were rated?

The two sides continue to work with each other. The MAX pilots continue to be paid and all pilots allow the company to wet lease aircraft to keep the operation going.

The MAX pilots which were within one year of being rated on another type were offered to return to that type (not a full course, where outside of one year is a full course). To do that, they are offered a hefty bonus. That window though is soon closing as this grounding drags on and more MAX pilots are now no longer within one year.

All new hires are being trained on other types where normally they would have gone to the MAX as more were due this year as well.

There have been no new equipment bids since it became apparent the MAX grounding was going to take longer than originally forecast. Air Canada is trying to keep resources intact as other pilots are running out of time ... all the while Boeing is trying to figure out what to do with that piece of crap they hawked to unsuspecting airlines.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:42 pm

Air Canada is also in the process of inducting four ex-4O A320s for Air Canada Rouge (the first A320s for RV). Some have already entered the fleet, but some have yet to be handed over by 4O. I am not sure if this is a sub-lease from 4O or a lease from the ultimate lessor.
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:51 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
I assume Icelandair is training some of their 737MAX pilots, that are sitting around, on the 757 and 767 as they will have need for extra pilots there, both for more extensive use and the leased extra frames.


Afraid your assumptions are both quite wrong. The pilots hired for the Max have all been laid off, and since the extra 757s and 767s they've got are all wet-leases, there is no reason for FI to type rate pilots on them.

In short, FI is fecked with fecked on top.
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:06 pm

longhauler wrote:
matt wrote:
I know that AC pilots are still being paid, but have some of them returned to other types for which they were rated?

The two sides continue to work with each other. The MAX pilots continue to be paid and all pilots allow the company to wet lease aircraft to keep the operation going.

The MAX pilots which were within one year of being rated on another type were offered to return to that type (not a full course, where outside of one year is a full course). To do that, they are offered a hefty bonus. That window though is soon closing as this grounding drags on and more MAX pilots are now no longer within one year.

All new hires are being trained on other types where normally they would have gone to the MAX as more were due this year as well.

There have been no new equipment bids since it became apparent the MAX grounding was going to take longer than originally forecast. Air Canada is trying to keep resources intact as other pilots are running out of time ... all the while Boeing is trying to figure out what to do with that piece of crap they hawked to unsuspecting airlines.


Thank you, longhauler, for this detailed response!
Next flights: YQM-YUL-MIA-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-LYS-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-FRA-MLA-FRA-YUL-YQM
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:56 pm

longhauler wrote:
matt wrote:
I know that AC pilots are still being paid, but have some of them returned to other types for which they were rated?

The two sides continue to work with each other. The MAX pilots continue to be paid and all pilots allow the company to wet lease aircraft to keep the operation going.

The MAX pilots which were within one year of being rated on another type were offered to return to that type (not a full course, where outside of one year is a full course). To do that, they are offered a hefty bonus. That window though is soon closing as this grounding drags on and more MAX pilots are now no longer within one year.

All new hires are being trained on other types where normally they would have gone to the MAX as more were due this year as well.

There have been no new equipment bids since it became apparent the MAX grounding was going to take longer than originally forecast. Air Canada is trying to keep resources intact as other pilots are running out of time ... all the while Boeing is trying to figure out what to do with that piece of crap they hawked to unsuspecting airlines.


Thanks! What base and bird are you on? Interested to know if I've flown with you.
YUL PNC :weightlifter:
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:35 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Air Canada is also in the process of inducting four ex-4O A320s for Air Canada Rouge (the first A320s for RV). Some have already entered the fleet, but some have yet to be handed over by 4O. I am not sure if this is a sub-lease from 4O or a lease from the ultimate lessor.


I wonder where this now puts RV with relation to the fleet cap
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:18 pm

B777LRF wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I assume Icelandair is training some of their 737MAX pilots, that are sitting around, on the 757 and 767 as they will have need for extra pilots there, both for more extensive use and the leased extra frames.


Afraid your assumptions are both quite wrong. The pilots hired for the Max have all been laid off, and since the extra 757s and 767s they've got are all wet-leases, there is no reason for FI to type rate pilots on them.

In short, FI is fecked with fecked on top.


First off, mjoelnir assumed this a few months back before they were laid off. Secondly, you aren't 100% correct either. While some MAX pilots were laid off, not everyone was. And I know for a fact the EuroAtlantic 767s and the Privilege Style 757 all have a mixed pilot pool from both those companies and FI itself, not sure what percentage are from each company but IIRC it's around 50/50, so there was a need for some FI pilots to operate those flights. That was a factor in why they've mostly leased 757/767 aircraft only, aside from the GetJet A319.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:33 am

SRQKEF wrote:
And I know for a fact the EuroAtlantic 767s and the Privilege Style 757 all have a mixed pilot pool from both those companies and FI itself, not sure what percentage are from each company but IIRC it's around 50/50, so there was a need for some FI pilots to operate those flights. That was a factor in why they've mostly leased 757/767 aircraft only, aside from the GetJet A319.


Thanks for the correction, appreciated.
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:19 pm

B777LRF wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
And I know for a fact the EuroAtlantic 767s and the Privilege Style 757 all have a mixed pilot pool from both those companies and FI itself, not sure what percentage are from each company but IIRC it's around 50/50, so there was a need for some FI pilots to operate those flights. That was a factor in why they've mostly leased 757/767 aircraft only, aside from the GetJet A319.


Thanks for the correction, appreciated.


No problem, I can understand the misunderstanding given that usually wet-lease deals like these include 100% cabin crew as well. :)
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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Re: Effect of MAX Grounding on Airlines without 737NG (AC, FI)

Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:57 pm

longhauler wrote:
matt wrote:
I know that AC pilots are still being paid, but have some of them returned to other types for which they were rated?

The two sides continue to work with each other. The MAX pilots continue to be paid and all pilots allow the company to wet lease aircraft to keep the operation going.

The MAX pilots which were within one year of being rated on another type were offered to return to that type (not a full course, where outside of one year is a full course). To do that, they are offered a hefty bonus. That window though is soon closing as this grounding drags on and more MAX pilots are now no longer within one year.

All new hires are being trained on other types where normally they would have gone to the MAX as more were due this year as well.

There have been no new equipment bids since it became apparent the MAX grounding was going to take longer than originally forecast. Air Canada is trying to keep resources intact as other pilots are running out of time ... all the while Boeing is trying to figure out what to do with that piece of crap they hawked to unsuspecting airlines.


Thanks longhauler for all of this, meanwhile what has been the impact on cabin crews? I haven’t heard anything about layoffs. I went for a ride on the OMNI 767-200 a few weeks ago to OGG and return. I counted six AC cabin crew and an equal amount of OMNI cabin crew. They did an amazing job working together and the AC team gave special attention to the J class passengers in the front. In the back AC worked the trolley on one side with OMNI crew working the other aisle. All this tells me that there are no layoffs of crews that had bid on Hawaii. Curious if the same applies on QATAR flights, full AC crew on board or just one AC rep. Thanks again for all the insight that you have provided so far.

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