B1168
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Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:33 am

Moredators: If posted elsewhere, please delete/lock.

According to this article, Norwegian Argentina seeks to fly between EZE and PER, potentially extend to SIN. I personally see it somewhat unlikely, but very intriguing. But PER doesn’t seem to be too large of a market, and I personally remain skeptical over the demand of the route. What do you guys think?

Link below:

https://simpleflying.com/norwegian-tran ... c-flights/
 
c933103
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:39 am

It was discussed many times on the forum last year and the article doesn't seems to add any new information onto the topic.
See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387479
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:42 am

No on so many levels.
 
dcajet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:52 am

B1168 wrote:
Moredators: If posted elsewhere, please delete/lock.

According to this article, Norwegian Argentina seeks to fly between EZE and PER, potentially extend to SIN. I personally see it somewhat unlikely, but very intriguing. But PER doesn’t seem to be too large of a market, and I personally remain skeptical over the demand of the route. What do you guys think?

Link below:

https://simpleflying.com/norwegian-tran ... c-flights/


Norwegian Argentina has the authority to fly to Australia, Singapore and South Africa from Buenos Aires; other than that, the rest are speculations that may or may not come to fruition in the near future. There is also the extreme ETOPS nature of an EZE-PER route to consider, that overflies directly the South Pole. Nothing to scoff at, particularly with a twin.

Having said that, there have been some rumors lately of new route announcements, but those would be made around Q4 only.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
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spinkid
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:09 am

Had they not dropped SIN earlier they could have offered round the world LCC service.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:35 am

spinkid wrote:
Had they not dropped SIN earlier they could have offered round the world LCC service.

And it would be a true RTW flight since it would cross the equator.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
x1234
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:53 am

Didn't Air New Zealand / LATAM get ETOPS 207 for the South Pacific crossing from South America to Australia/NZ!?
NZ31 (EZE-AKL): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#203244e9
LA801 (SCL-AKL-SYD): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#2035945a
LA805-This one goes really south showing the power of ETOPS207 in the South Pacific (SCL-MEL): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 5#203596fa
QF28-ETOPS doesn't apply but you can see the comparison with the twin above (SCL-SYD): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 8#2030fbad
 
cedarjet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:19 am

Sydney might work but Perth is basically two streets and a few suburbs, there’s less than 2.5 million people in the entire state which is about the same size as the EU. This is just alphabety spaghetti route planning, may as well try New Orleans to Mogadishu via Minsk because the codes look pretty (MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang — a major leisure hub in the US and two national capitals, yet most avgeeks can’t decode em!).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cedarjet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:21 am

PS forgot to add, but for the elimination of doubt, EZE PER is nearly 8,000 miles
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Antarius
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:09 am

This really does feel like throwing darts at wall for route planning.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:24 am

Antarius wrote:
This really does feel like throwing darts at wall for route planning.


Agreed. This has been discussed before but how do they expect to make money on a what 17 hr flight? What’s the PPDEW? 5? With maybe similar EZE-SIN?
 
x1234
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:24 am

Also I did some gcmap.com comparisons recently and if your traveling from Hong Kong/Singapore to Sao Paulo, it is universally faster to go via Dubai/Johannesburg/Europe than it is via the South Pacific but if your traveling to Santiago de Chile or Buenos Aires it is faster to go via the South Pacific.
 
planesarecool
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:13 am

Antarius wrote:
This really does feel like throwing darts at wall for route planning.


Except it's not Norwegian throwing the darts, it's a largely irrelevant aviation website. There is no source or reason to believe this is actually being planned by the airline.

Don't let that get in the way of A.net armchair CEO anti-Norwegian rhetoric though.
 
BNEFlyer
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:20 am

cedarjet wrote:
Sydney might work but Perth is basically two streets and a few suburbs, there’s less than 2.5 million people in the entire state which is about the same size as the EU. This is just alphabety spaghetti route planning, may as well try New Orleans to Mogadishu via Minsk because the codes look pretty (MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang — a major leisure hub in the US and two national capitals, yet most avgeeks can’t decode em!).


PER is a popular destination in its own right and if they were to have fifth freedom rights on PER-SIN then they'll do well. Also if the price is right to EZE some people in the East might travel to PER.
 
dredgy
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:50 pm

South America remains the most expensive continent to get to from Australia, while at the same time demand is increasing as some locations (Brazil, Argentina, Colombia) are very trendy. While flights to Europe, the US and Asia are already well under $1000 on full service airlines, flights to South America are still quite pricy (though they have come down a fair bit in recent years, it’s not the bank-breaker it used to be). Visa free access to Brazil has also made it much easier to travel to.

Cheap flights to South America has potential to go gangbusters, and if it’s cheap enough people will absolutely go via Perth.

Whether Norwegian makes money on that is a different issue, but have they ever cared about that?
 
B1168
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:56 pm

dredgy wrote:
South America remains the most expensive continent to get to from Australia, while at the same time demand is increasing as some locations (Brazil, Argentina, Colombia) are very trendy. While flights to Europe, the US and Asia are already well under $1000 on full service airlines, flights to South America are still quite pricy (though they have come down a fair bit in recent years, it’s not the bank-breaker it used to be). Visa free access to Brazil has also made it much easier to travel to.

Cheap flights to South America has potential to go gangbusters, and if it’s cheap enough people will absolutely go via Perth.

Whether Norwegian makes money on that is a different issue, but have they ever cared about that?


Well...... they maybe could afford that, but it is destined to absorb any profit they earn through domestic service...
One concern: Norwegian does not sell premium products. As far as I’m concerned, no routes longer than 7500 miles with no substantial premium demand/ connectivity worked very well. That is the real concern. I would honestly much prefer they fly EZE-SCL-AKL instead.
 
B1168
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:00 pm

x1234 wrote:
Also I did some gcmap.com comparisons recently and if your traveling from Hong Kong/Singapore to Sao Paulo, it is universally faster to go via Dubai/Johannesburg/Europe than it is via the South Pacific but if your traveling to Santiago de Chile or Buenos Aires it is faster to go via the South Pacific.


It seems to me that a “direct” flight between Hong Kong and São Paulo passes right above Nairobi. Unfortunately no nonstop exists between Nairobi and São Paulo, but for the Pearl River Delta region, ADD is actually shortest in terms of distance. And yes, there is a nonstop.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:04 pm

dredgy wrote:
South America remains the most expensive continent to get to from Australia, while at the same time demand is increasing as some locations (Brazil, Argentina, Colombia) are very trendy. While flights to Europe, the US and Asia are already well under $1000 on full service airlines, flights to South America are still quite pricy (though they have come down a fair bit in recent years, it’s not the bank-breaker it used to be). Visa free access to Brazil has also made it much easier to travel to.

Cheap flights to South America has potential to go gangbusters, and if it’s cheap enough people will absolutely go via Perth.

Whether Norwegian makes money on that is a different issue, but have they ever cared about that?

...and yet, you can get a round-trip SYD-BUE on LATAM most days I searched for USD750, taxes included. PER-BUE can be had for USD 980, with a connecting flight to MEL on QF. How much cheaper do you need it to be?...
 
dredgy
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:26 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
..and yet, you can get a round-trip SYD-BUE on LATAM most days I searched for USD750, taxes included. How much cheaper do you need it to be?...


The Aussie dollar is doing shithouse against the US dollar at the moment, so that's an $1100 fare here at real-world exchange rates. I'm guessing you're not searching from an AUD point of sale because I can't find many dates that cheap for the rest of this year. $750AUD would be a great price to get people moving.
Generally the cheapest fares are around $1200AUD to EZE, though they are regularly over $2000 in summer. My random dates all pulled up $1200-$2300 return fares (with horrible trip timings too). These prices go up even more if you don't live in Sydney or Melbourne. LAX and London both top out at around $1600 during Christmas holidays. Plus Australians need to pay a ~$120 fee to enter Chile which makes for an expensive stopover.

The US, Asia and even Europe are now very regularly below $1000 year round and it's much easier to get someone to impulse buy a $999 airfare than a $1245 one.

The fact is there just isn't much competition to South America, and there's an increasing market for a lower cost service and no one currently offering that service. The ingredients are there for success if someone figures out the right recipe.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:30 pm

dredgy wrote:
South America remains the most expensive continent to get to from Australia
...
Cheap flights to South America has potential to go gangbusters, and if it’s cheap enough people will absolutely go via Perth


How cheap would they have to be for people from the main population areas (SYD, MEL, BNE) wanting to go to South America to want to backtrack and go via Perth?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:55 pm

dredgy wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
..and yet, you can get a round-trip SYD-BUE on LATAM most days I searched for USD750, taxes included. How much cheaper do you need it to be?...


The Aussie dollar is doing shithouse against the US dollar at the moment, so that's an $1100 fare here at real-world exchange rates. I'm guessing you're not searching from an AUD point of sale because I can't find many dates that cheap for the rest of this year. $750AUD would be a great price to get people moving.
Generally the cheapest fares are around $1200AUD to EZE, though they are regularly over $2000 in summer. My random dates all pulled up $1200-$2300 return fares (with horrible trip timings too). These prices go up even more if you don't live in Sydney or Melbourne. LAX and London both top out at around $1600 during Christmas holidays. Plus Australians need to pay a ~$120 fee to enter Chile which makes for an expensive stopover.

The US, Asia and even Europe are now very regularly below $1000 year round and it's much easier to get someone to impulse buy a $999 airfare than a $1245 one.

The fact is there just isn't much competition to South America, and there's an increasing market for a lower cost service and no one currently offering that service. The ingredients are there for success if someone figures out the right recipe.

And flying cheapo Aussies on "impulse fares" to South America right across Antarctica (which is a no-go in itself), from the remotest city in the world, making most of them have to backtrack to PER, is that the recipe, you think?
 
Antarius
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:09 pm

planesarecool wrote:
Antarius wrote:
This really does feel like throwing darts at wall for route planning.


Except it's not Norwegian throwing the darts, it's a largely irrelevant aviation website. There is no source or reason to believe this is actually being planned by the airline.

Don't let that get in the way of A.net armchair CEO anti-Norwegian rhetoric though.


Wow, sensitive much?

This is comment is obviously in the context of this thread, which is predicated on the case of Norwegian launching such a flight.

Let's assume they do launch this flight. Then would my comment be invalid? Or as an "a.net armchair CEO" we cannot question the validity of routes?
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:56 pm

I believe NORWEGIAN have much lower-hanging fruit, such as EZE-Spain (MAD, BCN), EZE-Italy (MXP, FCO), EZE-France (CDG) and EZE-USA (MIA, JFK)
 
marcoantona
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:15 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
I believe NORWEGIAN have much lower-hanging fruit, such as EZE-Spain (MAD, BCN), EZE-Italy (MXP, FCO), EZE-France (CDG) and EZE-USA (MIA, JFK)

Totally agree on this one!
But if they were to look to Australia, I think Sydney has more chances of going first.
 
waoz1
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:06 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Sydney might work but Perth is basically two streets and a few suburbs, there’s less than 2.5 million people in the entire state which is about the same size as the EU. This is just alphabety spaghetti route planning, may as well try New Orleans to Mogadishu via Minsk because the codes look pretty (MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang — a major leisure hub in the US and two national capitals, yet most avgeeks can’t decode em!).


Really?
Perth is only 100,000 behind BNE in population so maybe read up a bit more before typing.
The city is over 2 million in it own right

I don't see it happening but you never know with Norwegian
 
geoshina
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:22 pm

This week Cathay Pacific and Latam have done another codeshare agreements in the GRU-JNB-HKG route, (besides GRU-LHR-HKG)
 
cedarjet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:07 pm

waoz1 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Sydney might work but Perth is basically two streets and a few suburbs, there’s less than 2.5 million people in the entire state which is about the same size as the EU. This is just alphabety spaghetti route planning, may as well try New Orleans to Mogadishu via Minsk because the codes look pretty (MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang — a major leisure hub in the US and two national capitals, yet most avgeeks can’t decode em!).


Really?
Perth is only 100,000 behind BNE in population so maybe read up a bit more before typing.
The city is over 2 million in it own right

I don't see it happening but you never know with Norwegian

I did read up. Population of the state is 2.589 million (OK I said “less than” and it’s +89,000. Still. A 17h flight from South America is asking a lot.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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SeaEagle8
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:32 pm

This would be a great chapter in a business/economics course called
“How to Lose Millions 101”
NSW based avgeek
 
dcajet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:39 pm

Folks, there are no plans for such a flight. Whoever wrote the article cited at the top of the thread has probably confused Norwegian's route authorities with actual intentions of operating such a route. If and when Norwegian were to grow its long haul flying from Argentina, in addition to the existing daily to LGW, believe me, there is lower hanging fruit than Perth or Singapore.

Nice Easter hoax.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
CityRail
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:34 pm

Why PER as middle stop?
Why not SYD where there will be more demand?

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MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:54 pm

CityRail wrote:
Why PER as middle stop?
Why not SYD where there will be more demand?

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...or CPT, which is the same distance as via PER (bar a few miles), has no ETOPS or Antarctic Treaty problems, and where there actually IS a market...
 
x1234
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:58 pm

Remember Qantas used to fly SYD-EZE non-stop on the B744ER as it was at the edge of the 744ER's range especially west-bound with the South Pacific polar winds. Its probably doable today with ETOPS207 and a 787/A350... You know what the best thing would be!? For Air New Zealand to extend their EZE route to GRU. So AKL-EZE-GRU!
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:03 pm

x1234 wrote:
Remember Qantas used to fly SYD-EZE non-stop on the B744ER as it was at the edge of the 744ER's range especially west-bound with the South Pacific polar winds. Its probably doable today with ETOPS207 and a 787/A350... You know what the best thing would be!? For Air New Zealand to extend their EZE route to GRU. So AKL-EZE-GRU!

That LATAM doesn't originate their AKL (and Australia) flights at GRU with a same-aircraft, same flight number connection at SCL has always been a mystery to me. Seems to be a no-brainer.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:10 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Remember Qantas used to fly SYD-EZE non-stop on the B744ER as it was at the edge of the 744ER's range especially west-bound with the South Pacific polar winds. Its probably doable today with ETOPS207 and a 787/A350... You know what the best thing would be!? For Air New Zealand to extend their EZE route to GRU. So AKL-EZE-GRU!

That LATAM doesn't originate their AKL (and Australia) flights at GRU with a same-aircraft, same flight number connection at SCL has always been a mystery to me. Seems to be a no-brainer.


AR did that for a while with their AKL-SYD service, same flight number and aircraft to GRU.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:13 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Remember Qantas used to fly SYD-EZE non-stop on the B744ER as it was at the edge of the 744ER's range especially west-bound with the South Pacific polar winds. Its probably doable today with ETOPS207 and a 787/A350... You know what the best thing would be!? For Air New Zealand to extend their EZE route to GRU. So AKL-EZE-GRU!

That LATAM doesn't originate their AKL (and Australia) flights at GRU with a same-aircraft, same flight number connection at SCL has always been a mystery to me. Seems to be a no-brainer.


AR did that for a while with their AKL-SYD service, same flight number and aircraft to GRU.

Exactly...a loooong time ago :old:
 
dcajet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:58 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Remember Qantas used to fly SYD-EZE non-stop on the B744ER as it was at the edge of the 744ER's range especially west-bound with the South Pacific polar winds. Its probably doable today with ETOPS207 and a 787/A350... You know what the best thing would be!? For Air New Zealand to extend their EZE route to GRU. So AKL-EZE-GRU!

That LATAM doesn't originate their AKL (and Australia) flights at GRU with a same-aircraft, same flight number connection at SCL has always been a mystery to me. Seems to be a no-brainer.


SCL-GRU (4hrs each way) is a very expensive tag on to the SYD-SCL, for not much high yielding traffic. It ties up an aircraft for 12 hours at least, and we are not talking a LAX-JFK tag with its premium yields here... this would be for crappier yields. Partner LATAM runs many flights a day between SCL and GRU, GIG and POA. No need for Qantas to waste 747 utilization like that. Same for Air New Zealand between EZE & GRU; NZ code share partner AR has oodles of flights between EZE and Brazil every day,

As to LATAM, keep in mind the airline is a federation of airlines from Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru, each with different crews, contracts, and specific routes they operate on. The Australia flights are operated by LATAM Chile with Chilean crews, etc, not by LATAM Brazil. LATAM Chile would have to position a 787 to GRU to originate the AKL, SYD or MEL flights, adding complication to the scheduling.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
dozerman
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:53 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
CityRail wrote:
Why PER as middle stop?
Why not SYD where there will be more demand?

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...or CPT, which is the same distance as via PER (bar a few miles), has no ETOPS or Antarctic Treaty problems, and where there actually IS a market...


CPT also divides the route more evenly, so that flight would be cheaper because they would carry much less fuel.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-sin,+e ... ze-cpt-sin
 
x1234
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:33 am

HOLY CRAP the ANZ AKL-EZE route operates with ETOPS 330 (First airline in the world):
https://australianaviation.com.au/2015/ ... nos-aires/
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/571 ... etops.html
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:56 am

x1234 wrote:
HOLY CRAP the ANZ AKL-EZE route operates with ETOPS 330 (First airline in the world):
https://australianaviation.com.au/2015/ ... nos-aires/
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/571 ... etops.html

You woke up to that now?? :) That route has been going for like 3 and a half years...
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:11 pm

dozerman wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
CityRail wrote:
Why PER as middle stop?
Why not SYD where there will be more demand?

我從使用 Tapatalk 的 G3226 發送

...or CPT, which is the same distance as via PER (bar a few miles), has no ETOPS or Antarctic Treaty problems, and where there actually IS a market...


CPT also divides the route more evenly, so that flight would be cheaper because they would carry much less fuel.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-sin,+e ... ze-cpt-sin

Of course. And via CPT you could actually fly quite close to the GC routing, which cannot be done on BUE-SYD or BUE-PER. So in all practical effect, via CPT would be the shortest route.
 
dcajet
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:28 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dozerman wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
...or CPT, which is the same distance as via PER (bar a few miles), has no ETOPS or Antarctic Treaty problems, and where there actually IS a market...


CPT also divides the route more evenly, so that flight would be cheaper because they would carry much less fuel.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-sin,+e ... ze-cpt-sin

Of course. And via CPT you could actually fly quite close to the GC routing, which cannot be done on BUE-SYD or BUE-PER. So in all practical effect, via CPT would be the shortest route.


Not exactly. Boeing has been consulted on the technical feasibility of an EZE-PER and their recommendation is that a non stop is the shortest, most direct route, perfectly doable with current ETOPS/EROPS 330 ratings. There is an interesting lobbying effort for this route from both in Australia and in Argentina, as it would bring SE Asia much closer to South America. Buenos Aires is the closest large South American gateway to Perth (closer than Santiago).

Now, whether the route can be made commercially viable, I am not sure. But probably the same question was asked in 1980 when Aerolineas Argentinas inaugurated the first EZE-RGL-AKL service with a 747-287B LV-MLR. Back then, it was a fortnightly flight. Today we have around 4 flights/day between South American and Australia & NZ.

Who could do it? AR is certainly out of the picture. QF? DN? Those are the only 2 that come to mind.

Image
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2091
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:37 pm

dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
dozerman wrote:

CPT also divides the route more evenly, so that flight would be cheaper because they would carry much less fuel.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=eze-sin,+e ... ze-cpt-sin

Of course. And via CPT you could actually fly quite close to the GC routing, which cannot be done on BUE-SYD or BUE-PER. So in all practical effect, via CPT would be the shortest route.


Not exactly. Boeing has been consulted on the technical feasibility of an EZE-PER and their recommendation is that a non stop is the shortest, most direct route, perfectly doable with current ETOPS/EROPS 330 ratings. There is an interesting lobbying effort for this route from both in Australia and in Argentina, as it would bring SE Asia much closer to South America. Buenos Aires is the closest large South American gateway to Perth (closer than Santiago).

Now, whether the route can be made commercially viable, I am not sure. But probably the same question was asked in 1980 when Aerolineas Argentinas inaugurated the first EZE-RGL-AKL service with a 747-287B LV-MLR. Back then, it was a fortnightly flight. Today we have around 4 flights/day between South American and Australia & NZ.

Who could do it? AR is certainly out of the picture. QF? DN? Those are the only 2 that come to mind.

Image

Exactly. As that map shows, the actual routing would not be a GC route but a longer one. And that is the shortest route (obviously) on BUE-PER, but as you indicated, why would they want to fly that? If it is SIN that they want to connect to South America, then CPT makes more sense, both geographically and comercially. (From a strictly commercial point of view, we all know SIN-JNB-GRU is what makes sense.)
 
dcajet
Posts: 3935
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:03 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Of course. And via CPT you could actually fly quite close to the GC routing, which cannot be done on BUE-SYD or BUE-PER. So in all practical effect, via CPT would be the shortest route.


Not exactly. Boeing has been consulted on the technical feasibility of an EZE-PER and their recommendation is that a non stop is the shortest, most direct route, perfectly doable with current ETOPS/EROPS 330 ratings. There is an interesting lobbying effort for this route from both in Australia and in Argentina, as it would bring SE Asia much closer to South America. Buenos Aires is the closest large South American gateway to Perth (closer than Santiago).

Now, whether the route can be made commercially viable, I am not sure. But probably the same question was asked in 1980 when Aerolineas Argentinas inaugurated the first EZE-RGL-AKL service with a 747-287B LV-MLR. Back then, it was a fortnightly flight. Today we have around 4 flights/day between South American and Australia & NZ.

Who could do it? AR is certainly out of the picture. QF? DN? Those are the only 2 that come to mind.

Image

Exactly. As that map shows, the actual routing would not be a GC route but a longer one. And that is the shortest route (obviously) on BUE-PER, but as you indicated, why would they want to fly that? If it is SIN that they want to connect to South America, then CPT makes more sense, both geographically and comercially. (From a strictly commercial point of view, we all know SIN-JNB-GRU is what makes sense.)


Sorry - I mistakenly thought you were talking of an EZE-PER via CPT not an EZE-SIN.

As I said, the lobbying effort is not from Singapore but from Australia and Argentina with the Perth airport and Australian-Argentinian Chamber of Commerce being the main drivers behind it. Singapore would be one of many points in SE Asia that can be reached from Perth much faster that currently possible from AKL, SYD & MEL. There is a sizable South American community in Perth that could benefit from this connection, yet very little traffic from South America calls at Perth as the destination is either unknown or not promoted. According to the aforementioned Chamber of Commerce, 30,000 Argentinians/year vacation in SE Asia, and 48,000 combined Brazilians & Argentinians vacation in Bali alone every year. They want to position Perth as the gateway to SE Asia.

Commercially viable? Not sure. If Brig. Pellegrini would be in charge at AR today, as he was in 1980, he'd surely try it out. (Brigadier Pellegrini was the one CEO AR had that had a global vision and was behind the creation of two of AR's innovative routes: EZE-CPT and EZE-AKL). Of course, back then, state funding was not an issue!!
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
x1234
Posts: 488
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Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:21 pm

dcajet, since you know all things LATAM, do you know why the LATAM flight GRU-JNB east-bound is 2 hours longer than SAA's GRU-JNB!? LATAM is 763ER and SAA is A330 both having ETOPS over the South Atlantic.
SAA (8 hours east-bound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sa223
SAA (10 hours westbound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sa222
LATAM (10 hours east-bound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/la8058
LATAM (10 hours westbound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/la8059
 
dcajet
Posts: 3935
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:44 pm

x1234 wrote:
dcajet, since you know all things LATAM, do you know why the LATAM flight GRU-JNB east-bound is 2 hours longer than SAA's GRU-JNB!? LATAM is 763ER and SAA is A330 both having ETOPS over the South Atlantic.
SAA (8 hours east-bound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sa223
SAA (10 hours westbound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/sa222
LATAM (10 hours east-bound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/la8058
LATAM (10 hours westbound): https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/la8059


Been told that it boils down to different ETOPS ratings on LATAM's 767s (180) than SAA's A330s (240), which mean a more direct route for the latter.

LATAM has announced it will deploy the A350 on the route, so this flight time difference in SAA's favor will end soon.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
x1234
Posts: 488
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:00 pm

Also LATAM and Cathay Pacific is launching new code-sharing between South America & HKG in between the existing code-shares via North America & Europe:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... pril-2019/

So LA/CX GRU-JNB-HKG is now possible (shortest possible route in terms of flying time!) and SCL-MEL-HKG also possible in addition to the existing SCL-AKL/SYD-HKG! :)
 
DiegoB
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:09 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Sydney might work but Perth is basically two streets and a few suburbs, there’s less than 2.5 million people in the entire state which is about the same size as the EU. This is just alphabety spaghetti route planning, may as well try New Orleans to Mogadishu via Minsk because the codes look pretty (MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang — a major leisure hub in the US and two national capitals, yet most avgeeks can’t decode em!).


Perth is close and connected to SEA with is a popular exotic destination for Argentinians and Brazilians. 40,000 Argentinians going to SEA, 8000 to Bali. In addition 30,000 Brazilians goes to Bali...

In terms of the size of Perth you should come and have a look. GDP per capita usd70,000... and WA’s economy is as big as NZ.

A bridge is missing between EZE and PER.
 
DiegoB
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:19 pm

Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:22 pm

cedarjet wrote:
waoz1 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Sydney might work but Perth is basically two streets and a few suburbs, there’s less than 2.5 million people in the entire state which is about the same size as the EU. This is just alphabety spaghetti route planning, may as well try New Orleans to Mogadishu via Minsk because the codes look pretty (MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang — a major leisure hub in the US and two national capitals, yet most avgeeks can’t decode em!).


Really?
Perth is only 100,000 behind BNE in population so maybe read up a bit more before typing.
The city is over 2 million in it own right

I don't see it happening but you never know with Norwegian

I did read up. Population of the state is 2.589 million (OK I said “less than” and it’s +89,000. Still. A 17h flight from South America is asking a lot.


Why 17h? Its 7,000 NM ESAD, it can be done under 15hs.
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1126
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:28 pm

Re: Rumor/unofficial: Norwegian Argentina to start EZE-PER-SIN

Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:13 am

(MSY MSQ MGQ — I use these in an aviation quiz I run every year in Pyongyang)


Can we just take a moment to appreciate the sheer awesomeness of this statement....lol

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